History YMMV / Monster

19th Aug '16 12:31:19 PM Javertshark13
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** One could even say that this series doesn't have one. People are redeemed (sometimes at [[RedemptionEqualsDeath a large cost]]) for crimes so heinous even death wouldn't be enough in most series. At the end, [[spoiler:even Johan is forgiven by his sister, who says "Even if we were the only two people left in the whole world, I would forgive you."]]
** One of the main themes of the series is the question of whether or not the Horizon even exists: is there a point where a person is so far gone as to be truly irredeemable?
*** In the end, the answer is a mixture of yes and no. No one, not even Johan is truly beyond redemption, but what makes Johan irredeemable is the fact that he doesn't ''want'' to be redeemed.
*** Even this is ambiguous as Johan's lack of desire for redemption seems to stem from his belief that he is irredeemable. "Some things can never be amended."

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** One could even say Dr. Heinemann crosses it with his total lack of remorse that this his political games caused a patient's death, then screwing Tenma's career over and driving him close to the DespairEventHorizon as punishment for saving Johan.
** The Baby crosses it (aside from the whole "burn the Turkish district" plot) [[WouldHurtAChild when he orders Dieter killed]] for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
** A key theme of the
series doesn't have one.is whether or not the horizon truly exists. People are redeemed (sometimes at [[RedemptionEqualsDeath a large cost]]) for crimes so heinous even death wouldn't be enough in most series. Johan refuses to seek redemption in large part because he considers himself to have crossed the horizon long ago ("Some things can never be amended.") At the end, however, [[spoiler:even Johan he is forgiven by his sister, who says "Even if we were the only two people left in the whole world, I would forgive you."]]
** One of the main themes of the series is the question of whether or not the Horizon even exists: is there a point where a person is so far gone as to be truly irredeemable?
*** In the end, the answer is a mixture of yes and no. No one, not even Johan is truly beyond redemption, but what makes Johan irredeemable is the fact that he doesn't ''want'' to be redeemed.
*** Even this is ambiguous as Johan's lack of desire for redemption seems to stem from his belief that he is irredeemable. "Some things can never be amended."
"]]


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** Martin is only in three episodes, but gets enough attention that you'd think he was one of the main characters.
31st Jul '16 3:15:11 AM ToniUzoma
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*** And excepting Tenma, the entire main cast are white Germans and Czechs. It would be a stretch (or really, and outright lie) to say there aren't as many (or greater in number) who are portrayed sympathetically.
24th Jul '16 4:06:07 AM Anddrix
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* BaseBreaker: Dieter. Is he a nice tag along kid or a BrattyHalfPint who is {{Anvilicious}} about being nice?

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* BaseBreaker: BaseBreakingCharacter: Dieter. Is he a nice tag along kid or a BrattyHalfPint who is {{Anvilicious}} about being nice?
2nd Jun '16 1:22:05 PM VanSisean
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** In fairness, that same arc depicts most of the leaders of the Turkish community as people who make [[BigotVsBigot prejudiced]] [[BlackAndGrayMorality insinuations]] about Turkish sex workers and women seeking out [[GermanicDepressives interracial relationships with ethnic Germans or involving themselves with German clientele]] getting what they deserve when they (invariably) disappear or face other adverse circumstances, to say nothing of the fact that they initially dismiss Tenma's warnings about the extremists' plan at least in part by pointing out the fact that he is a ''Japanese'' outsider who is unaffiliated with the Turkish community, and have to be set straight by a respected Turkish elder.

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** In fairness, that same arc depicts most of the leaders of the Turkish community as people who make [[BigotVsBigot prejudiced]] [[BlackAndGrayMorality insinuations]] about Turkish sex workers and women seeking out [[GermanicDepressives interracial relationships with ethnic Germans or involving themselves with German clientele]] getting what they deserve when they (invariably) disappear or face other adverse circumstances, to say nothing of the fact that they initially dismiss Tenma's warnings about the extremists' plan at least in part by pointing out the fact that he is a ''Japanese'' outsider who is unaffiliated with the Turkish community, and have to be set straight by a respected Turkish elder. While their wariness is somewhat understandable, their attitudes still seem to stem from xenophobic impulses.
1st Jun '16 9:51:47 PM VanSisean
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** In fairness, that same arc depicts most of the leaders of the Turkish community as people who make [[BigotVsBigot prejudiced]] [[BlackAndGrayMorality insinuations]] about Turkish sex workers and women seeking out [[GermanicDepressives interracial relationships with ethnic Germans or involving themselves with German clientele]], to say nothing of the fact that they initially dismiss Tenma's warnings about the extremists' plan at least in part by pointing out the fact that he is a ''Japanese'' outsider who is unaffiliated with the Turkish community, and have to be set straight by a respected Turkish elder.

to:

** In fairness, that same arc depicts most of the leaders of the Turkish community as people who make [[BigotVsBigot prejudiced]] [[BlackAndGrayMorality insinuations]] about Turkish sex workers and women seeking out [[GermanicDepressives interracial relationships with ethnic Germans or involving themselves with German clientele]], clientele]] getting what they deserve when they (invariably) disappear or face other adverse circumstances, to say nothing of the fact that they initially dismiss Tenma's warnings about the extremists' plan at least in part by pointing out the fact that he is a ''Japanese'' outsider who is unaffiliated with the Turkish community, and have to be set straight by a respected Turkish elder.
1st Jun '16 9:46:40 PM VanSisean
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** In fairness, that same arc depicts most of the leaders of the Turkish community as people who make [[BigotVsBigot prejudiced insinuations]] about Turkish sex workers and women seeking out [[GermanicDepressives interracial relationships with ethnic Germans or involving themselves with German clientele]], to say nothing of the fact that they initially dismiss Tenma's warnings about the extremists' plan at least in part by pointing out the fact that he is a ''Japanese'' outsider who is unaffiliated with the Turkish community, and have to be set straight by a respected Turkish elder.

to:

** In fairness, that same arc depicts most of the leaders of the Turkish community as people who make [[BigotVsBigot prejudiced prejudiced]] [[BlackAndGrayMorality insinuations]] about Turkish sex workers and women seeking out [[GermanicDepressives interracial relationships with ethnic Germans or involving themselves with German clientele]], to say nothing of the fact that they initially dismiss Tenma's warnings about the extremists' plan at least in part by pointing out the fact that he is a ''Japanese'' outsider who is unaffiliated with the Turkish community, and have to be set straight by a respected Turkish elder.
1st Jun '16 9:45:06 PM VanSisean
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** In fairness, that same arc depicts most of the leaders of the Turkish community as people who make [[BigotVsBigot prejudiced insinuations]] about Turkish sex workers and women seeking out [[GermanicDepressives interracial relationships with ethnic Germans or involving themselves with German clientele]], to say nothing of the fact that they initially dismiss Tenma's warnings about the extremists' plan at least in part by pointing out the fact that he is a ''Japanese'' outsider who is unaffiliated with the Turkish community.

to:

** In fairness, that same arc depicts most of the leaders of the Turkish community as people who make [[BigotVsBigot prejudiced insinuations]] about Turkish sex workers and women seeking out [[GermanicDepressives interracial relationships with ethnic Germans or involving themselves with German clientele]], to say nothing of the fact that they initially dismiss Tenma's warnings about the extremists' plan at least in part by pointing out the fact that he is a ''Japanese'' outsider who is unaffiliated with the Turkish community.community, and have to be set straight by a respected Turkish elder.
1st Jun '16 9:43:45 PM VanSisean
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Added DiffLines:

** In fairness, that same arc depicts most of the leaders of the Turkish community as people who make [[BigotVsBigot prejudiced insinuations]] about Turkish sex workers and women seeking out [[GermanicDepressives interracial relationships with ethnic Germans or involving themselves with German clientele]], to say nothing of the fact that they initially dismiss Tenma's warnings about the extremists' plan at least in part by pointing out the fact that he is a ''Japanese'' outsider who is unaffiliated with the Turkish community.
10th Apr '16 2:01:11 PM ACW
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* CompleteMonster: This work, dedicated to exploring whether there is such a thing as pure evil, concludes that while anybody, no matter now heinous, can be redeemed, it is [[DissonantSerenity Johan Liebert's]] refusal to seek redemption that makes him the titular monster. A {{sadist}}ic [[TheChessmaster chessmaster]] and ManipulativeBastard since he [[EnfanteTerrible learned to walk and talk]], Johan murdered his own foster parents and manipulated over 50 adults and children into massacring each other even [[CorruptionByAMinor before even his teen years]], and, as an adult, Johan is on a personal journey to become, in his own words, [[CardCarryingVillain as dark as possible]]. He is also trying to find out if there is anyone as evil as he is out there, or, failing that, forcing the heroic [[BigGood Dr. Tenma]], and/or his own pacifistic [[CainAndAbel sister]], Nina Foertner, to [[StrikeMeDownWithAllOfYourHatred kill him in cold blood]]. In this way, he hopes to establish that even [[IfYouKillHimYouWillBeJustLikeHim the best people can become just like him]]. Along the way he [[WouldHurtAChild convinces children to jump from rooftops]], gets a recovering [[TheAlcoholic alcoholic]] drunk before throwing him off a building, sets a highly-occupied library aflame, and convinces various {{serial killer}}s to murder every foster family he has ever lived with, as part of his quest to become an {{unperson}}. In the end, Johan tries to manipulate the population of an entire town into slaughtering each other, and, failing at this, prepares to shoot a child in the head just to torture Tenma. Numerous {{Freudian Excuse}}s are proposed for Johan's behavior, yet each one is ultimately undermined, revealing that in the end, Johan simply is pure, unadulterated evil.

to:

* CompleteMonster: This work, dedicated to exploring whether there is such a thing as pure evil, concludes that while anybody, no matter now heinous, can be redeemed, it is [[DissonantSerenity Johan Liebert's]] refusal to seek redemption that makes him the titular monster. A {{sadist}}ic [[TheChessmaster chessmaster]] and ManipulativeBastard since he [[EnfanteTerrible learned to walk and talk]], Johan murdered his own foster parents and manipulated over 50 adults and children into massacring each other even [[CorruptionByAMinor before even his teen years]], as a preteen]], and, as an adult, Johan is on a personal journey to become, in his own words, [[CardCarryingVillain as dark as possible]]. He is also trying to find out if there is anyone as evil as he is out there, or, failing that, forcing the heroic [[BigGood Dr. Tenma]], and/or his own pacifistic [[CainAndAbel sister]], Nina Foertner, to [[StrikeMeDownWithAllOfYourHatred kill him in cold blood]]. In this way, he hopes to establish that even [[IfYouKillHimYouWillBeJustLikeHim the best people can become just like him]]. Along the way he [[WouldHurtAChild convinces children to jump from rooftops]], gets a recovering [[TheAlcoholic alcoholic]] drunk before throwing him off a building, sets a highly-occupied library aflame, and convinces various {{serial killer}}s to murder every foster family he has ever lived with, as part of his quest to become an {{unperson}}. In the end, Johan tries to manipulate the population of an entire town into slaughtering each other, and, failing at this, prepares to shoot a child in the head just to torture Tenma. Numerous {{Freudian Excuse}}s are proposed for Johan's behavior, yet each one is ultimately undermined, revealing that in the end, Johan simply is pure, unadulterated evil.
10th Apr '16 8:19:04 AM ACW
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* CompleteMonster: ''Manga/{{Monster}}'' is dedicated to exploring whether there is such a thing as pure evil, or if anybody, no matter how heinous, can be redeemed. The series's conclusion is that while anybody can be redeemed, it is the titular character Johan Liebert's refusal to seek redemption that makes him a monster. A {{sadist}}ic [[TheChessmaster chessmaster]] and ManipulativeBastard since he [[EnfanteTerrible learned to walk and talk]], Johan is on a personal journey to become, in his own words, [[CardCarryingVillain as dark as possible]]. He is also trying to find out if there is anyone as evil as he is out there, or failing that, force the heroic [[BigGood Dr. Tenma]], and/or his own pacifistic [[CainAndAbel sister]], Nina Foertner, to [[StrikeMeDownWithAllOfYourHatred kill him in cold blood]]. In this way, he hopes to establish that even [[IfYouKillHimYouWillBeJustLikeHim the best people can become just like him]]. Along the way he [[WouldHurtAChild convinces children to jump from rooftops]], gets a recovering [[TheAlcoholic alcoholic]] drunk before throwing him off a building, and convinces various {{serial killer}}s to murder every foster family he has ever lived with, as part of his quest to become an {{unperson}}. Numerous {{Freudian Excuse}}s are proposed for Johan's behavior, yet each one is ultimately undermined, revealing that in the end, Johan simply is pure, unadulterated evil.

to:

* CompleteMonster: ''Manga/{{Monster}}'' is *CompleteMonster: This work, dedicated to exploring whether there is such a thing as pure evil, or if concludes that while anybody, no matter how now heinous, can be redeemed. The series's conclusion is that while anybody can be redeemed, it is the titular character [[DissonantSerenity Johan Liebert's Liebert's]] refusal to seek redemption that makes him a the titular monster. A {{sadist}}ic [[TheChessmaster chessmaster]] and ManipulativeBastard since he [[EnfanteTerrible learned to walk and talk]], Johan murdered his own foster parents and manipulated over 50 adults and children into massacring each other even [[CorruptionByAMinor before even his teen years]], and, as an adult, Johan is on a personal journey to become, in his own words, [[CardCarryingVillain as dark as possible]]. He is also trying to find out if there is anyone as evil as he is out there, or or, failing that, force forcing the heroic [[BigGood Dr. Tenma]], and/or his own pacifistic [[CainAndAbel sister]], Nina Foertner, to [[StrikeMeDownWithAllOfYourHatred kill him in cold blood]]. In this way, he hopes to establish that even [[IfYouKillHimYouWillBeJustLikeHim the best people can become just like him]]. Along the way he [[WouldHurtAChild convinces children to jump from rooftops]], gets a recovering [[TheAlcoholic alcoholic]] drunk before throwing him off a building, sets a highly-occupied library aflame, and convinces various {{serial killer}}s to murder every foster family he has ever lived with, as part of his quest to become an {{unperson}}.{{unperson}}. In the end, Johan tries to manipulate the population of an entire town into slaughtering each other, and, failing at this, prepares to shoot a child in the head just to torture Tenma. Numerous {{Freudian Excuse}}s are proposed for Johan's behavior, yet each one is ultimately undermined, revealing that in the end, Johan simply is pure, unadulterated evil.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=YMMV.Monster