History YMMV / MalazanBookoftheFallen

24th Aug '16 9:39:30 PM nombretomado
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* OlderThanTheyThink: The series owes a considerable debt to ''TheBlackCompany.''

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* OlderThanTheyThink: The series owes a considerable debt to ''TheBlackCompany.''Literature/TheBlackCompany.''
11th Jul '16 3:35:23 PM CassandraLeo
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** It is, however, worth noting that Orlong is intended to be a deconstruction of the BarbarianHero archetype and is not intended to be sympathetic (at least at first), as per WordOfGod.

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** It is, however, worth noting that Orlong is intended to be a deconstruction of the BarbarianHero archetype and is not intended to be sympathetic (at least at first), as per WordOfGod. As for his tendency to rape people, this goes away as he undergoes CharacterDevelopment. Even fans of the character don't find him sympathetic when first introduced; it's only later in his character arc that he becomes likeable to his fans.



* CrazyAwesome: Karsa Orlong, Iskaral Pust, Tehol & Bugg, Second Seguleh, Bauchelain and Korbal Broach, probably all sapers...
** [[spoiler: As we see in TheCrippledGod, after becoming Master of the Deck, Captain Ganoes isn't afraid to come to talk to dangerous enemy commander, just to see what person she is, and piss her off just by talking... and he gets away with it!]]

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* CrazyAwesome: Karsa Orlong, Iskaral Pust, Tehol & Bugg, Second Seguleh, Bauchelain and Korbal Broach, probably all sapers...
sappers...
** [[spoiler: As we see in TheCrippledGod, after becoming Master of the Deck, Captain Ganoes isn't afraid to come to talk to a dangerous enemy commander, just to see what person she is, and piss her off just by talking... and he gets away with it!]]
11th Jul '16 3:32:30 PM CassandraLeo
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** [[spoiler:Mayen abuses Feather Witch, and the abuse is heavily implied to be sexual in nature. However, Mayen herself is the victim of rape at the hands of Rhulad, who himself may very well be too insane to realise that what he's doing is wrong at first. He eventually comes to a HeelRealization and both makes Mayen stop her abuse of Feather Witch and frees Mayen of her forced betrothal to him, but by this point she has already crossed the DespairEventHorizon and after being chased by Letherii who apparently intend to rape her is ultimately DrivenToSuicide.]]
** [[spoiler:Feather Witch also qualifies; her abuse at the hands of Mayen qualifies her for the Woobie part, while her appalling treatment of Udinaas, who is hopelessly in love with her, qualifies for her the Jerkass part. It's subtly hinted at one point that her treatment of Udinaas may be due to her unwillingness to reciprocate his affections, but it's not firmly established one way or the other, even in her internal monologue.]]



* TheScrappy: The Mhbye in ''Memories of Ice.'' Depending on who you ask, Karsa Orlong and/or Kruppe as well.

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* TheScrappy: The Mhbye Mhybe in ''Memories of Ice.'' Depending on who you ask, Karsa Orlong and/or Kruppe as well.



** Sums up everyone's behavior around Kallor. First they let the psycho into their army, then they mock and belittle him. Brilliant move, people.
** Sorry/Apsalar. Multiple people have pointed out to her that [[spoiler: abandoning Cutter wasn't a great idea. Anyone who's moderately perceptive can spot either of their broken hearts immediately]].

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** Sums up everyone's behavior around Kallor. First they let the psycho into their army, then they [[BullyingADragon mock and belittle him.him]]. Brilliant move, people.
** Sorry/Apsalar. Multiple people have pointed out to her that [[spoiler: abandoning Cutter wasn't a great idea. Anyone who's moderately perceptive can spot either of their broken hearts immediately]].immediately]].
** Basically anyone who mouths off to Karsa Orlong. The guy's a giant barbarian. What did you expect to happen?
20th Jun '16 4:02:13 PM CassandraLeo
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** Felisin Paran. Sure, she's abrasive and [[spoiler:ultimately leads a fanatical rebellion]], but [[spoiler:she was [[MadeASlave sold into slavery]] by her own sister (to protect her from the Malazan Empire's cull of the nobility, but Felisin seems to have regarded it as a FateWorseThanDeath), prostituted herself to protect herself and her friends as a result, lost several of those friends in her escape from the Otataral mines, became the mind slave of an insane goddess who wants to wipe out humanity, and is ultimately killed by the aforementioned sister, who ''never even realises that she was fighting Felisin''. Her whole life is basically one big TraumaCongaLine and ultimately a particularly nasty case of ShootTheShaggyDog.]]

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** Felisin Paran. Sure, she's abrasive and [[spoiler:ultimately leads a fanatical rebellion]], but [[spoiler:she was [[MadeASlave sold into slavery]] by her own sister (to protect her from the Malazan Empire's cull of the nobility, but Felisin seems to have regarded it as a FateWorseThanDeath), prostituted herself to protect herself and her friends as a result, lost several of those friends in her escape from the Otataral mines, became the mind slave of an insane goddess who wants to wipe out humanity, and is ultimately killed by the aforementioned sister, who ''never even realises that she was fighting Felisin''. Felisin'']]. Her whole life is basically one big TraumaCongaLine and ultimately a [[spoiler:a particularly nasty case of ShootTheShaggyDog.]]ShootTheShaggyDog]].



** [[spoiler:Challice is unfaithful to her husband - it's implied serially - but it's also made plain that this is because she's been cajoled by the strictures of her society and family pressures into a loveless ArrangedMarriage with a man who's a bit too much of a {{Jerkass}} for her to ever love. She clearly feels trapped by the norms of Darujhistan nobility and it's indicated that the main reason she cheats is because it's the only thing that makes her feel alive. She talks about her plans of escaping, but inwardly she suspects they will never happen. Ultimately, when Darjuhistan comes under siege by Hounds of Shadow, she is so overwhelmed by fear that she ends up killing herself, not aware that her husband has been killed in a duel - by her lover, no less, albeit for reasons of {{revenge}} that have little to do with her marriage. Whether she even counts as a {{jerkass}} depends on [[GoodAdulteryBadAdultery how sympathetic you are to her adultery]], but her {{woobie}} status is pretty difficult to dispute.]]

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** [[spoiler:Challice Challice is unfaithful [[spoiler:unfaithful to her husband - it's implied serially - but it's also made plain that this is because she's been cajoled by the strictures of her society and family pressures into a loveless ArrangedMarriage with a man who's a bit too much of a {{Jerkass}} for her to ever love. She clearly feels trapped by the norms of Darujhistan nobility and it's indicated that the main reason she cheats is because it's the only thing that makes her feel alive. She talks about her plans of escaping, but inwardly she suspects they will never happen. Ultimately, when Darjuhistan comes under siege by Hounds of Shadow, she is so overwhelmed by fear that she ends up killing herself, not aware that her husband has been killed in a duel - by her lover, no less, albeit for reasons of {{revenge}} that have little to do with her marriage. marriage]]. Whether she even counts as a {{jerkass}} depends on [[GoodAdulteryBadAdultery how sympathetic you are to [[spoiler:[[GoodAdulteryBadAdultery her adultery]], adultery]]]], but her {{woobie}} status is pretty difficult to dispute.]]
20th Jun '16 4:00:37 PM CassandraLeo
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** Felisin Paran.

to:

** Felisin Paran. Sure, she's abrasive and [[spoiler:ultimately leads a fanatical rebellion]], but [[spoiler:she was [[MadeASlave sold into slavery]] by her own sister (to protect her from the Malazan Empire's cull of the nobility, but Felisin seems to have regarded it as a FateWorseThanDeath), prostituted herself to protect herself and her friends as a result, lost several of those friends in her escape from the Otataral mines, became the mind slave of an insane goddess who wants to wipe out humanity, and is ultimately killed by the aforementioned sister, who ''never even realises that she was fighting Felisin''. Her whole life is basically one big TraumaCongaLine and ultimately a particularly nasty case of ShootTheShaggyDog.]]



** [[spoiler:Challice is unfaithful to her husband - it's implied serially - but it's also made plain that this is because she's been cajoled by the strictures of her society into a loveless ArrangedMarriage with a man who's a bit too much of a {{Jerkass}} for her to ever love. She clearly feels trapped by the strictures of her society and it's indicated that the main reason she cheats is because it's the only thing that makes her feel alive. She talks about her plans of escaping, but inwardly she suspects they will never happen. Ultimately, when Darjuhistan comes under siege by Hounds of Shadow she is so overwhelmed by fear that she ends up killing herself, not aware that her husband has been killed in a duel - by her lover, no less, albeit for reasons of {{revenge}} that have little to do with her marriage. Whether she even counts as a {{jerkass}} depends on [[GoodAdulteryBadAdultery how sympathetic you are to her adultery]], but her {{woobie}} status is pretty difficult to dispute.]]

to:

** [[spoiler:Challice is unfaithful to her husband - it's implied serially - but it's also made plain that this is because she's been cajoled by the strictures of her society and family pressures into a loveless ArrangedMarriage with a man who's a bit too much of a {{Jerkass}} for her to ever love. She clearly feels trapped by the strictures norms of her society Darujhistan nobility and it's indicated that the main reason she cheats is because it's the only thing that makes her feel alive. She talks about her plans of escaping, but inwardly she suspects they will never happen. Ultimately, when Darjuhistan comes under siege by Hounds of Shadow Shadow, she is so overwhelmed by fear that she ends up killing herself, not aware that her husband has been killed in a duel - by her lover, no less, albeit for reasons of {{revenge}} that have little to do with her marriage. Whether she even counts as a {{jerkass}} depends on [[GoodAdulteryBadAdultery how sympathetic you are to her adultery]], but her {{woobie}} status is pretty difficult to dispute.]]
20th Jun '16 3:56:15 PM CassandraLeo
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Added DiffLines:

** [[spoiler:Challice is unfaithful to her husband - it's implied serially - but it's also made plain that this is because she's been cajoled by the strictures of her society into a loveless ArrangedMarriage with a man who's a bit too much of a {{Jerkass}} for her to ever love. She clearly feels trapped by the strictures of her society and it's indicated that the main reason she cheats is because it's the only thing that makes her feel alive. She talks about her plans of escaping, but inwardly she suspects they will never happen. Ultimately, when Darjuhistan comes under siege by Hounds of Shadow she is so overwhelmed by fear that she ends up killing herself, not aware that her husband has been killed in a duel - by her lover, no less, albeit for reasons of {{revenge}} that have little to do with her marriage. Whether she even counts as a {{jerkass}} depends on [[GoodAdulteryBadAdultery how sympathetic you are to her adultery]], but her {{woobie}} status is pretty difficult to dispute.]]
18th Jun '16 8:31:43 PM Angeldeb82
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* BaseBreaker: Karsa Orlong. A CanonSue in a world of Canon Sues, while ''also'' being a Conan the Barbarian expy with vastly more power and fewer redeeming qualities. Oh, and he also rapes people repeatedly in his introduction story (while calling them 'children', though they're adults, due to the difference in size between his race and theirs. And yes, the effect of HotSkittyOnWailordAction is fairly graphically focused on.) And is generally treated as heroic, if brutal. As you might expect, he is ''slightly'' controversial.

to:

* BaseBreaker: Karsa Orlong. A CanonSue Canon Sue in a world of Canon Sues, while ''also'' being a Conan the Barbarian expy with vastly more power and fewer redeeming qualities. Oh, and he also rapes people repeatedly in his introduction story (while calling them 'children', though they're adults, due to the difference in size between his race and theirs. And yes, the effect of HotSkittyOnWailordAction is fairly graphically focused on.) And is generally treated as heroic, if brutal. As you might expect, he is ''slightly'' controversial.



* CultClassic: Opinions abound that it will never reach mainstream success circa ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' because the depth and complexity that makes it great is alienating to casual readers, and cannot be translated to other mediums.


Added DiffLines:

* CultClassic: Opinions abound that it will never reach mainstream success circa ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' because the depth and complexity that makes it great is alienating to casual readers, and cannot be translated to other mediums.
28th May '16 8:44:20 PM Angeldeb82
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* CanonSue: Every third character is said to be this.



* CultClassic: Opinions abound that it will never reach mainstream success circa ASongOfIceAndFire because the depth and complexity that makes it great is alienating to casual readers, and cannot be translated to other mediums.

to:

* CultClassic: Opinions abound that it will never reach mainstream success circa ASongOfIceAndFire ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' because the depth and complexity that makes it great is alienating to casual readers, and cannot be translated to other mediums.



* GodModeSue: How some fans see Karsa.



* TearJerker: [[spoiler:Itkovian's death]].

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* TearJerker: [[spoiler:Itkovian's death]].death.]]



* TooCoolToLive: [[spoiler:Itkovian]].

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* TooCoolToLive: [[spoiler:Itkovian]].[[spoiler:Itkovian.]]



** Sorry/Apsalar. Multiple people have pointed out to her that [[spoiler: abandoning Cutter wasn't a great idea. Anyone who's moderately perceptive can spot either of their broken hearts immediately.]]

to:

** Sorry/Apsalar. Multiple people have pointed out to her that [[spoiler: abandoning Cutter wasn't a great idea. Anyone who's moderately perceptive can spot either of their broken hearts immediately.]]immediately]].
26th May '16 11:55:44 PM CassandraLeo
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Added DiffLines:

** It is, however, worth noting that Orlong is intended to be a deconstruction of the BarbarianHero archetype and is not intended to be sympathetic (at least at first), as per WordOfGod.


Added DiffLines:

** To a certain extent, Kallor. He has very few, if any, redeeming qualities and most of his problems are self-made, but given how much his life has ''sucked'' it's difficult not to feel somewhat sorry for him as well.
** [[spoiler:The Pannion Seer]], whose admittedly reprehensible actions are the result of being driven insane over hundreds of thousands of years due to actions of [[spoiler:the Crippled God and a K'Chain Che'Malle Matron, plus his own guilt over what he believes to be the death of his sister.]] When he's de-brainwashed he turns out to be a pretty nice fellow.
** [[spoiler:Kaminsod, the Crippled God himself, whose long imprisonment would probably have driven anyone mad. All he really wants is to get home. When he's freed he, like Pannion, turns out to be quite nice and actually assists the heroes in saving the world from the [[BiggerBad Otataral Dragon]], not to mention being [[NarratorAllAlong the narrator of the whole series]].]]
11th May '16 11:39:39 PM Aquillion
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* BaseBreaker: Karsa Orlong. A CanonSue in a world of Canon Sues, while ''also'' being a Conan the Barbarian expy with vastly more power and fewer redeeming qualities. Oh, and he also rapes people repeatedly in his introduction story (while calling them 'children', though they're adults, due to the difference in size between his race and theirs. And yes, the effect of HotSkittyOnWailord action is fairly graphically focused on.) And is generally treated as heroic, if brutal. As you might expect, he is ''slightly'' controversial.

to:

* BaseBreaker: Karsa Orlong. A CanonSue in a world of Canon Sues, while ''also'' being a Conan the Barbarian expy with vastly more power and fewer redeeming qualities. Oh, and he also rapes people repeatedly in his introduction story (while calling them 'children', though they're adults, due to the difference in size between his race and theirs. And yes, the effect of HotSkittyOnWailord action HotSkittyOnWailordAction is fairly graphically focused on.) And is generally treated as heroic, if brutal. As you might expect, he is ''slightly'' controversial.
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