History YMMV / MalazanBookOfTheFallen

2nd Apr '17 7:27:53 AM ImperialMajestyXO
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* BaseBreaker: Karsa Orlong. A Canon Sue, while ''also'' being a Franchise/ConanTheBarbarian {{Expy}} with vastly more power and fewer redeeming qualities. Oh, and he also rapes people repeatedly in his introduction story, while calling them 'children', though they're adults, due to the difference in size between his race and theirs. And yes, the effect of HotSkittyOnWailordAction is fairly graphically focused on. He himself considers his own actions the epitome of heroism and everyone not willing to follow in his footsteps a coward. As you might expect, this makes him ''slightly'' controversial. However, Karsa Orlong is intended to be a deconstruction of the BarbarianHero archetype and is not intended to be sympathetic (at least at first), as per WordOfGod [[http://www.steven-erikson.com/index.php/the-problem-of-karsa-orlong/]]. As for his tendency to rape people, this goes away as he undergoes CharacterDevelopment and his motivations become more nuanced and thoughtful, inasmuch as they can be with Karsa Orlong, and he switches from rape and murder to wanting to destroy civilization as a whole. Even fans of the character don't find him sympathetic when first introduced and some readers remain staunch haters of Karsa Orlong to the end.

to:

* BaseBreaker: Karsa Orlong. A Canon Sue, while ''also'' being a Franchise/ConanTheBarbarian {{Expy}} with vastly more power and fewer redeeming qualities. Oh, and he also rapes people repeatedly in his introduction story, while calling them 'children', though they're adults, due to the difference in size between his race and theirs. And yes, the effect of HotSkittyOnWailordAction is fairly graphically focused on. He himself considers his own actions the epitome of heroism and everyone not willing to follow in his footsteps a coward. As you might expect, this makes him ''slightly'' controversial. However, Karsa Orlong is intended to be a deconstruction of the BarbarianHero archetype and is not intended to be sympathetic (at least at first), as per WordOfGod [[http://www.([[http://www.steven-erikson.com/index.php/the-problem-of-karsa-orlong/]].php/the-problem-of-karsa-orlong/ which can be read here]]). As for his tendency to rape people, this goes away as he undergoes CharacterDevelopment and his motivations become more nuanced and thoughtful, inasmuch as they can be with Karsa Orlong, and he switches from rape and murder to wanting to destroy civilization as a whole. Even fans of the character don't find him sympathetic when first introduced and some readers remain staunch haters of Karsa Orlong to the end.
2nd Apr '17 7:26:49 AM ImperialMajestyXO
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** Torvald Nom, who only shows up briefly in ''House of Chains'', has gained a ''lot'' of popularity, spawning forum rants about how badass he is [[http://forum.malazanempire.com/topic/22008-plot-summary/page__view__findpost__p__871952]]. In ''Literature/TollTheHounds'', he becomes an AscendedExtra, with his own minor storyline.

to:

** Torvald Nom, who only shows up briefly in ''House of Chains'', has gained a ''lot'' of popularity, spawning forum rants about how badass he is [[http://forum.malazanempire.com/topic/22008-plot-summary/page__view__findpost__p__871952]].com/topic/22008-plot-summary/page__view__findpost__p__871952 forum rants about how badass he is]]. In ''Literature/TollTheHounds'', he becomes an AscendedExtra, with his own minor storyline.
12th Mar '17 12:55:19 PM Derkhan
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%% ZeroContextExample entries are not allowed on wiki pages. All such entries have been commented out. Add context to the entries before uncommenting them.





* CrazyAwesome: Karsa Orlong, Iskaral Pust, Tehol & Bugg, Second Seguleh, Bauchelain and Korbal Broach, probably all sappers...
** [[spoiler: As we see in TheCrippledGod, after becoming Master of the Deck, Captain Ganoes isn't afraid to come to talk to a dangerous enemy commander, just to see what person she is, and piss her off just by talking... and he gets away with it!]]

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* CrazyAwesome: Karsa Orlong, Iskaral Pust, Tehol & Bugg, Second Seguleh, Bauchelain and Korbal Broach, probably all sappers...
** [[spoiler:
As we see in TheCrippledGod, ''Literature/TheCrippledGod'', after becoming Master of the Deck, Captain Ganoes isn't afraid to come to talk to a dangerous enemy commander, just to see what person she is, and piss her off just by talking... and he gets away with it!]]it!



** Torvald Nom, who only shows up briefly in ''House of Chains'', has gained a ''lot'' of popularity, spawning forum rants about how badass he is [[http://forum.malazanempire.com/topic/22008-plot-summary/page__view__findpost__p__871952]]. In ''Toll the Hounds'', he becomes an AscendedExtra, with his own minor storyline.

to:

** Torvald Nom, who only shows up briefly in ''House of Chains'', has gained a ''lot'' of popularity, spawning forum rants about how badass he is [[http://forum.malazanempire.com/topic/22008-plot-summary/page__view__findpost__p__871952]]. In ''Toll the Hounds'', ''Literature/TollTheHounds'', he becomes an AscendedExtra, with his own minor storyline.



* TheScrappy: The Mhybe in ''Memories of Ice.'' Depending on who you ask, Karsa Orlong and/or Kruppe as well.
** Also, Nimander and Felisin.
* TearJerker: [[spoiler:Itkovian's death.]]
** [[spoiler:Coltaine's death on the crucifix.]]
* TooCoolToLive: [[spoiler:Itkovian.]]

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* TheScrappy: %%* TheScrappy:
%%**
The Mhybe in ''Memories of Ice.'' ''
%%**
Depending on who you ask, Karsa Orlong and/or Kruppe as well.
** %%** Also, Nimander and Felisin.
* TearJerker: [[spoiler:Itkovian's %%* TearJerker:
%%**[[spoiler:Itkovian's
death.]]
** %%** [[spoiler:Coltaine's death on the crucifix.]]
* %%* TooCoolToLive: [[spoiler:Itkovian.]]



** Basically anyone who mouths off to Karsa Orlong. The guy's a giant barbarian. What did you expect to happen?

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** Basically anyone who mouths off to Karsa Orlong. The guy's a giant barbarian. What did you expect to happen?happen?
----
12th Mar '17 12:43:10 PM Derkhan
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* BaseBreaker: Karsa Orlong. A Canon Sue in a world of Canon Sues, while ''also'' being a Conan the Barbarian expy with vastly more power and fewer redeeming qualities. Oh, and he also rapes people repeatedly in his introduction story (while calling them 'children', though they're adults, due to the difference in size between his race and theirs. And yes, the effect of HotSkittyOnWailordAction is fairly graphically focused on.) And is generally treated as heroic, if brutal. As you might expect, he is ''slightly'' controversial.
** It is, however, worth noting that Orlong is intended to be a deconstruction of the BarbarianHero archetype and is not intended to be sympathetic (at least at first), as per WordOfGod. As for his tendency to rape people, this goes away as he undergoes CharacterDevelopment. Even fans of the character don't find him sympathetic when first introduced; it's only later in his character arc that he becomes likeable to his fans.

to:

* BaseBreaker: Karsa Orlong. A Canon Sue in a world of Canon Sues, Sue, while ''also'' being a Conan the Barbarian expy Franchise/ConanTheBarbarian {{Expy}} with vastly more power and fewer redeeming qualities. Oh, and he also rapes people repeatedly in his introduction story (while story, while calling them 'children', though they're adults, due to the difference in size between his race and theirs. And yes, the effect of HotSkittyOnWailordAction is fairly graphically focused on.) And is generally treated as heroic, if brutal. He himself considers his own actions the epitome of heroism and everyone not willing to follow in his footsteps a coward. As you might expect, he is this makes him ''slightly'' controversial.
** It is, however, worth noting that
controversial. However, Karsa Orlong is intended to be a deconstruction of the BarbarianHero archetype and is not intended to be sympathetic (at least at first), as per WordOfGod. WordOfGod [[http://www.steven-erikson.com/index.php/the-problem-of-karsa-orlong/]]. As for his tendency to rape people, this goes away as he undergoes CharacterDevelopment. CharacterDevelopment and his motivations become more nuanced and thoughtful, inasmuch as they can be with Karsa Orlong, and he switches from rape and murder to wanting to destroy civilization as a whole. Even fans of the character don't find him sympathetic when first introduced; it's only later in his character arc that he becomes likeable introduced and some readers remain staunch haters of Karsa Orlong to his fans.the end.
12th Mar '17 7:20:43 AM Derkhan
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** Felisin Paran. Sure, she's abrasive and [[spoiler:ultimately leads a fanatical rebellion]], but [[spoiler:she was [[MadeASlave sold into slavery]] by her own sister (to protect her from the Malazan Empire's cull of the nobility, but Felisin seems to have regarded it as a FateWorseThanDeath), prostituted herself to protect herself and her friends as a result, lost several of those friends in her escape from the Otataral mines, became the mind slave of an insane goddess who wants to wipe out humanity, and is ultimately killed by the aforementioned sister, who ''never even realises that she was fighting Felisin'']]. Her whole life is basically one big TraumaCongaLine and ultimately [[spoiler:a particularly nasty case of ShootTheShaggyDog]].
** Rhulad Sengar. Yeah, he's technically an EvilOverlord and has done some inarguably bad things- but just ''look'' at the rest of this list. You've ''got'' to feel sorry for the poor guy. He needs a hug. And possibly, a therapist.

to:

** Felisin Paran. Sure, she's abrasive and [[spoiler:ultimately ultimately leads a fanatical rebellion]], rebellion, but [[spoiler:she she was [[MadeASlave sold into slavery]] by her own sister (to protect her from the Malazan Empire's cull of the nobility, but Felisin seems to have regarded it as a FateWorseThanDeath), prostituted herself to protect herself and her friends as a result, lost several of those friends in her escape from the Otataral mines, became the mind slave of an insane goddess who wants to wipe out humanity, and is ultimately killed [[spoiler:killed by the aforementioned sister, who ''never even realises that she was fighting Felisin'']]. Her whole life is basically one big TraumaCongaLine and ultimately [[spoiler:a a particularly nasty case of ShootTheShaggyDog]].
ShootTheShaggyDog.
** Rhulad Sengar. Yeah, he's technically an EvilOverlord and has done some inarguably bad things- things -- but just ''look'' at the rest of this list. You've ''got'' to feel sorry for the poor guy. He needs a hug. And possibly, a therapist.



** [[spoiler:The Pannion Seer]], whose admittedly reprehensible actions are the result of being driven insane over hundreds of thousands of years due to actions of [[spoiler:the Crippled God and a K'Chain Che'Malle Matron, plus his own guilt over what he believes to be the death of his sister.]] When he's de-brainwashed he turns out to be a pretty nice fellow.
** [[spoiler:Kaminsod, the Crippled God himself, whose long imprisonment would probably have driven anyone mad. All he really wants is to get home. When he's freed he, like Pannion, turns out to be quite nice and actually assists the heroes in saving the world from the [[BiggerBad Otataral Dragon]], not to mention being [[NarratorAllAlong the narrator of the whole series]].]]
** Challice is [[spoiler:unfaithful to her husband - it's implied serially - but it's also made plain that this is because she's been cajoled by the strictures of her society and family pressures into a loveless ArrangedMarriage with a man who's a bit too much of a {{Jerkass}} for her to ever love. She clearly feels trapped by the norms of Darujhistan nobility and it's indicated that the main reason she cheats is because it's the only thing that makes her feel alive. She talks about her plans of escaping, but inwardly she suspects they will never happen. Ultimately, when Darjuhistan comes under siege by Hounds of Shadow, she is so overwhelmed by fear that she ends up killing herself, not aware that her husband has been killed in a duel - by her lover, no less, albeit for reasons of {{revenge}} that have little to do with her marriage]]. Whether she even counts as a {{jerkass}} depends on how sympathetic you are to [[spoiler:[[GoodAdulteryBadAdultery her adultery]]]], but her {{woobie}} status is pretty difficult to dispute.
** [[spoiler:Mayen abuses Feather Witch, and the abuse is heavily implied to be sexual in nature. However, Mayen herself is the victim of rape at the hands of Rhulad, who himself may very well be too insane to realise that what he's doing is wrong at first. He eventually comes to a HeelRealization and both makes Mayen stop her abuse of Feather Witch and frees Mayen of her forced betrothal to him, but by this point she has already crossed the DespairEventHorizon and after being chased by Letherii who apparently intend to rape her is ultimately DrivenToSuicide.]]
** [[spoiler:Feather Witch also qualifies; her abuse at the hands of Mayen qualifies her for the Woobie part, while her appalling treatment of Udinaas, who is hopelessly in love with her, qualifies for her the Jerkass part. It's subtly hinted at one point that her treatment of Udinaas may be due to her unwillingness to reciprocate his affections, but it's not firmly established one way or the other, even in her internal monologue.]]

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** [[spoiler:The The Pannion Seer]], Seer, whose admittedly reprehensible actions are the result of being driven insane over hundreds of thousands of years due to actions of [[spoiler:the the Crippled God and a K'Chain Che'Malle Matron, plus his own guilt over what he believes to be the death of his sister.]] sister. When he's de-brainwashed he turns out to be a pretty nice fellow.
** [[spoiler:Kaminsod, the The Crippled God himself, whose long imprisonment would probably have driven anyone mad. All he really wants is to get home. When he's freed he, like Pannion, [[spoiler:he's freed]] he turns out to be quite nice and actually assists [[spoiler:assists the heroes in saving the world from the [[BiggerBad Otataral Dragon]], Dragon]]]], not to mention potentially being [[NarratorAllAlong the narrator of the whole series]].]]
series]].
** Challice is [[spoiler:unfaithful not only introduced as a spoiled upper class brat looking down on others, when ''Literature/TollTheHounds'' rolls around, she turns out to be unfaithful to her husband - -- it's implied serially - -- but it's also made plain that this is because she's been cajoled by the strictures of her society and family pressures into a loveless ArrangedMarriage with a man who's a bit too much of a {{Jerkass}} for her to ever love. She clearly feels trapped by the norms of Darujhistan nobility and it's indicated that the main reason she cheats is because it's the only thing that makes her feel alive. She talks about her plans of escaping, but inwardly she suspects they will never happen. Ultimately, when Darjuhistan comes under siege by Hounds of Shadow, she is so overwhelmed by fear that she ends [[spoiler:ends up killing herself, herself]], not aware that her husband has [[spoiler:has been killed in a duel - -- by her lover, no less, less]], albeit for reasons of {{revenge}} that have little to do with her marriage]]. Whether marriage. In the end, she even counts as a {{jerkass}} depends on how sympathetic you are never learns to [[spoiler:[[GoodAdulteryBadAdultery show others her adultery]]]], true self, and her {{Jerkass}} behaviour hides a woman who has chased youthful dreams but her {{woobie}} status is pretty difficult to dispute.
ended up in a nightmare.
** [[spoiler:Mayen Mayen abuses Feather Witch, and Witch in order to inflict the abuse is heavily implied she herself faces after she intentionally walked into her marriage with Rhulad to be sexual show her original betrothed, Fear, that he's not being taking enough interest in nature. her for her likes. However, Mayen herself is she ends up as the victim of rape at the hands of Rhulad, who himself may very well be too insane to realise that what he's doing is wrong at first. He eventually comes to a HeelRealization and both makes Mayen stop her abuse of Feather Witch and frees Mayen of her forced betrothal to him, but by this point she has already crossed the DespairEventHorizon and after being chased by Letherii who apparently intend to rape her with unknown intentions she is ultimately DrivenToSuicide.]]
DrivenToSuicide.
** [[spoiler:Feather Feather Witch also qualifies; her abuse at the hands of Mayen qualifies her for the Woobie part, while her appalling treatment of Udinaas, who is hopelessly in love with her, qualifies for her the Jerkass part. It's subtly hinted at one point that her treatment of Udinaas may be due to her unwillingness to reciprocate his affections, affections and that her story may have turned out quite differently has she not given herself to half the village in search of power and influence, but it's not firmly established one way or the other, even in her internal monologue.]]
12th Mar '17 7:01:33 AM Derkhan
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* FandomRivalry: Some with ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'', the other major GenreDeconstruction of HighFantasy. The authors themselves are on friendly terms, and have tried to discourage any thoughts of competition.

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* FandomRivalry: Some There was some rivalry with ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'', the other ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' during their common hey-day, courtesy of both being major GenreDeconstruction {{Genre Deconstruction}}s of HighFantasy. HighFantasy and willing to kill off important characters, even though that's where the similarities end. Malazan fans were arguing that at least there was rhyme and reason beyond the shock value in their series' character deaths, and besides, at least Creator/StevenErikson was delivering his {{Doorstopper}} volumes on time, while Creator/GeorgeRRMartin's fans were claiming they'd rather wait five years for a book than deal with the inconsistancies and {{Asspull}}s the ''Literature/MalazanBookOfTheFallen'' was riddled with. The situation wasn't helped by ''Literature/MalazanBookOfTheFallen'' fans also often being fans of ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' but leaving it behind due to the increasing ScheduleSlip and ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' fans looking for a palate cleanser between books but finding the ''Literature/MalazanBookOfTheFallen'' to be nothing like their favourite series and turning away in disgust. Lots of mud slinging happened. The authors themselves are on friendly terms, and have tried to discourage any thoughts of competition.competition but ended up fueling it even more in some cases by stating that they'd read each other's first volume and found it not to be their cup of tea. The rivalry died down when ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' became hugely popular thanks to the [[Series/GameOfThrones TV adaptation]] and the ''Literature/MalazanBookOfTheFallen'' had its last volume published.
15th Jan '17 1:17:01 AM creader
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* IKnewIt: [[spoiler:Some fan speculation held that the final book would portray the Crippled God as a sympathetic victim, and end with his liberation and healing. This is exactly what happened.]]
9th Jan '17 5:42:04 AM SorPepita
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* FandomBerserkButton: The ''Literature/MalazanBookOfTheFallen'' was written by Steven Erikson, not Steve Erickson, Stephen Erickson, or even Erik Stevenson. To add insult to injury, a good number of people who cannot be bothered to take a look at the cover are those who claim he cannot write worth a damn.

to:

* FandomBerserkButton: The ''Literature/MalazanBookOfTheFallen'' was written by Steven Erikson, Creator/StevenErikson, not Steve Erickson, Stephen Erickson, or even Erik Stevenson. To add insult to injury, a good number of people who cannot be bothered to take a look at the cover are those who claim he cannot write worth a damn.
9th Jan '17 5:36:22 AM SorPepita
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* FandomRivalry: Some with ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' the other major GenreDeconstruction of HighFantasy. The authors themselves are on friendly terms, and have tried to discourage any thoughts of competition.

to:

* FandomRivalry: Some with ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'', the other major GenreDeconstruction of HighFantasy. The authors themselves are on friendly terms, and have tried to discourage any thoughts of competition.
9th Jan '17 5:20:09 AM SorPepita
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** Torvald Nom, who only shows up briefly in ''House of Chains'', has gained a ''lot'' of popularity, spawning forum rants about how badass he is [[http://forum.malazanempire.com/topic/22008-plot-summary/page__view__findpost__p__871952]]. In ''Toll the Hounds'', be becomes an AscendedExtra, with his own minor storyline.

to:

** Torvald Nom, who only shows up briefly in ''House of Chains'', has gained a ''lot'' of popularity, spawning forum rants about how badass he is [[http://forum.malazanempire.com/topic/22008-plot-summary/page__view__findpost__p__871952]]. In ''Toll the Hounds'', be he becomes an AscendedExtra, with his own minor storyline.
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