History YMMV / JohnCarterOfMars

21st Apr '16 12:40:59 AM Eagal
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* FairForItsDay: The novels are surprisingly progressive for their time. In particular, the Barsoomian races aren't portrayed as weaker or pathetic compared with each other and the white human protagonist. Far from it in fact, as the black Martians are invariably described as honorable and very attractive, despite most of them being sky pirates. What's more, Red Martians are the result of interbreeding every race together for survival and adaptability, and are typically thought of as the most sympathetic.

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* FairForItsDay: FairForItsDay:
**
The novels are surprisingly progressive for their time. In particular, the Barsoomian races aren't portrayed as weaker or pathetic compared with each other and the white human protagonist. Far from it in fact, as the black Martians are invariably described as honorable and very attractive, despite most of them being sky pirates. What's more, Red Martians are the result of interbreeding every race together for survival and adaptability, and are typically thought of as the most sympathetic.sympathetic.
** The cannibalistic White Martians are even nastier than the Black Martians. Clearly inferior morally to the Red Martians, intellectually to the Black Martians and technologically to the Yellow Martians, the White Martians are easily the most unpleasant of the Barsoomian races. Those hybrid Red Martians (and many of the "monstrous" Green Martians) are good guys and clearly very intelligent, adapting very quickly once not oppressed by the others. [[spoiler:The original trilogy even ends with John Carter becoming the eponymous warlord and uniting all the varying races of Barsoom as equals -- and this is clearly shown to be a ''good thing.'']] The portrayal of women has been compared favorably in some respects to even some modern works.
** It is also stated that the cross-breeding that resulted in the Red Martians was intentional. An attempt to breed a race that could adapt better to the changing environment.
** In the first book at least, John Carter is disgusted at the Green Barsoomians for their warlike ways and violent tendencies, but it is taken for granted that [[BrokenAesop his killing of dozens of generally innocent people is perfectly justifiable]] because he is doing it to rescue his OneTrueLove. The closest he comes to acknowledging that maybe murder isn't the best way to solve all his problems is when he reflects that the guards were {{Worthy Opponent}}s and fighting men like him. An AlternateCharacterInterpretation might be that since the story is told in the first person, the reason John is portrayed as chaotic good despite his somewhat chaotic neutral method of interacting with obstacles is because he's actually a narcissistic sociopath who doesn't see anything wrong with sacrificing other people's lives if they get in the way of his personal happiness and that of those he cares about.
** John is a ''former confederate soldier''. [[note]]At the time, the Confederacy was often seen as the more romantic side of the Civil War; as attitudes shifted, particularly about race, they became seen as a much more villainous side. Where once a Confederate hero might be expected, to modern readers it carries a whole bucket of UnfortunateImplications. TheFilmOfTheBook largely gets around the UnfortunateImplications by making it plain Carter was extremely disillusioned by the Civil War and felt little loyalty towards the Confederate cause[[/note]]
** This is actually lampshaded in ''The Gods of Mars'' when Carter meets Black Martians for the first time; the narration says he finds them admirable fighters and that their skin tone only makes them more handsome, adding that the reader may find this odd for a Virginian to say.



* ValuesDissonance: So, so much. Burroughs was writing at a time when scientific racialism was in vogue, and it shows; the Red Martians, the most populous (and least advanced technologically) of the humanoid Martians, are said to have originated out of miscegenation between the White, Yellow, and Black Martians, who have been forced into polar enclaves by dysgenic pressure. The fact that the Black Martians are cannibalistic raiders is questionable in modern eyes...
** FairForItsDay: ...however, this is clearly subverted because the cannibalistic ''White'' Martians are even nastier. Clearly inferior morally to the Red Martians, intellectually to the Black Martians and technologically to the Yellow Martians, the White Martians are easily the most unpleasant of the Barsoomian races. Those hybrid Red Martians (and many of the "monstrous" Green Martians) are good guys and clearly very intelligent, adapting very quickly once not oppressed by the others. [[spoiler:The original trilogy even ends with John Carter becoming the eponymous warlord and uniting all the varying races of Barsoom as equals -- and this is clearly shown to be a ''good thing.'']] The portrayal of women has been compared favorably in some respects to even some modern works. It's even [[WildMassGuessing possible]] that the whole setup was a TakeThat to the racism of the era.
*** It is also stated that the cross-breeding that resulted in the Red Martians was intentional. An attempt to breed a race that could adapt better to the changing environment.
** In the first book at least, John Carter is disgusted at the Green Barsoomians for their warlike ways and violent tendencies, but it is taken for granted that [[BrokenAesop his killing of dozens of generally innocent people is perfectly justifiable]] because he is doing it to rescue his OneTrueLove. The closest he comes to acknowledging that maybe murder isn't the best way to solve all his problems is when he reflects that the guards were {{Worthy Opponent}}s and fighting men like him. An AlternateCharacterInterpretation might be that since the story is told in the first person, the reason John is portrayed as chaotic good despite his somewhat chaotic neutral method of interacting with obstacles is because he's actually a narcissistic sociopath who doesn't see anything wrong with sacrificing other people's lives if they get in the way of his personal happiness and that of those he cares about.
** Also, he is a ''former confederate soldier''. [[note]]At the time, the Confederacy was often seen as the more romantic side of the Civil War; as attitudes shifted, particularly about race, they became seen as a much more villainous side. Where once a Confederate hero might be expected, to modern readers it carries a whole bucket of UnfortunateImplications. TheFilmOfTheBook largely gets around the UnfortunateImplications by making it plain Carter was extremely disillusioned by the Civil War and felt little loyalty towards the Confederate cause[[/note]]
*** This is actually lampshaded in ''The Gods of Mars'' when Carter meets Black Martians for the first time; the narration says he finds them admirable fighters and that their skin tone only makes them more handsome, adding that the reader may find this odd for a Virginian to say.

to:

* ValuesDissonance: So, so much. Burroughs was writing at a time when scientific racialism was in vogue, and it shows; the Red Martians, the most populous (and least advanced technologically) of the humanoid Martians, are said to have originated out of miscegenation between the White, Yellow, and Black Martians, who have been forced into polar enclaves by dysgenic pressure. The fact that the Black Martians are cannibalistic raiders is questionable in modern eyes...
** FairForItsDay: ...however, this is clearly subverted because the cannibalistic ''White'' Martians are even nastier. Clearly inferior morally to the Red Martians, intellectually to the Black Martians and technologically to the Yellow Martians, the White Martians are easily the most unpleasant of the Barsoomian races. Those hybrid Red Martians (and many of the "monstrous" Green Martians) are good guys and clearly very intelligent, adapting very quickly once not oppressed by the others. [[spoiler:The original trilogy even ends with John Carter becoming the eponymous warlord and uniting all the varying races of Barsoom as equals -- and this is clearly shown to be a ''good thing.'']] The portrayal of women has been compared favorably in some respects to even some modern works. It's even [[WildMassGuessing possible]] that the whole setup was a TakeThat to the racism of the era.
*** It is also stated that the cross-breeding that resulted in the Red Martians was intentional. An attempt to breed a race that could adapt better to the changing environment.
** In the first book at least, John Carter is disgusted at the Green Barsoomians for their warlike ways and violent tendencies, but it is taken for granted that [[BrokenAesop his killing of dozens of generally innocent people is perfectly justifiable]] because he is doing it to rescue his OneTrueLove. The closest he comes to acknowledging that maybe murder isn't the best way to solve all his problems is when he reflects that the guards were {{Worthy Opponent}}s and fighting men like him. An AlternateCharacterInterpretation might be that since the story is told in the first person, the reason John is portrayed as chaotic good despite his somewhat chaotic neutral method of interacting with obstacles is because he's actually a narcissistic sociopath who doesn't see anything wrong with sacrificing other people's lives if they get in the way of his personal happiness and that of those he cares about.
** Also, he is a ''former confederate soldier''. [[note]]At the time, the Confederacy was often seen as the more romantic side of the Civil War; as attitudes shifted, particularly about race, they became seen as a much more villainous side. Where once a Confederate hero might be expected, to modern readers it carries a whole bucket of UnfortunateImplications. TheFilmOfTheBook largely gets around the UnfortunateImplications by making it plain Carter was extremely disillusioned by the Civil War and felt little loyalty towards the Confederate cause[[/note]]
*** This is actually lampshaded in ''The Gods of Mars'' when Carter meets Black Martians for the first time; the narration says he finds them admirable fighters and that their skin tone only makes them more handsome, adding that the reader may find this odd for a Virginian to say.
eyes.
21st Apr '16 12:37:07 AM Eagal
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* NewerThanTheyThink:
** John Carter was preceded by an obscure book titled ''Lieutenant Gullivar Jones: His Vacation'', which was about an Earthman transported to Mars through mystical means, fights aliens with his superhuman strength and falls in love with an alien princess. The book was published a decade before Burroughs wrote ''A Princess of Mars''. Interestingly, both works crossed over in comic book format in Dynamite's ''Warriors of Mars''.
** Its not hard to imagine the First Born as [[ForgottenRealms drow]], with them being a very attractive dark-skinned, long-lived race that lives underground, regularly enslaves outsiders and worship an evil, female deity. The obvious difference is that the First Born [[HeelFaceTurn turn on a new leaf and redeem their evil ways.]]
** Green Martians were [[OurOrcsAreDifferent orcs]] before [[LordOfTheRings it was cool.]]
** [[ANaziByAnyOtherName The White Martians]] resemble the Nazis as supremacists with Aryan features such as blonde hair, fair skin and blue eyes, yet they predated the Nazis rise of power by decades.



** NewerThanTheyThink: On the flip side, John Carter was preceded by an obscure book titled ''Lieutenant Gullivar Jones: His Vacation'', which was about an Earthman transported to Mars through mystical means, fights aliens with his superhuman strength and falls in love with an alien princess. The book was published a decade before Burroughs wrote ''A Princess of Mars''. Interestingly, both works crossed over in comic book format in Dynamite's ''Warriors of Mars''.
** Its not hard to imagine the First Born as [[ForgottenRealms drow]], with them being a very attractive dark-skinned, long-lived race that lives underground, regularly enslaves outsiders and worship an evil, female deity. The obvious difference is that the First Born [[HeelFaceTurn turn on a new leaf and redeem their evil ways.]]
** Green Martians were [[OurOrcsAreDifferent orcs]] before [[LordOfTheRings it was cool.]]
** [[ANaziByAnyOtherName The White Martians]] resemble the Nazis as supremacists with Aryan features such as blonde hair, fair skin and blue eyes, yet they predated the Nazis rise of power by decades.
7th Feb '16 3:10:02 AM TheNerevarine
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** The First Born have been this to the Holy Therns for centuries, using them as playthings, frequently assaulting their kingdom and kidnapping their women, none of which are never seen again. Because they never capture any males, the [[IHaveYouNowMyPretty implication]] is considered a AFateWorseThanDeath by the Therns, who are forced to leave these women to their fate, since they do not dare strike back or rescue them out of fear of retribution. The female Therns selected to service Issus live for one year and [[HumanSacrifice then are sacrificed in her honor]].

to:

** The First Born have been this to the Holy Therns for centuries, using them as playthings, frequently assaulting their kingdom and kidnapping abducting their women, women for an unknown purpose, none of which are never seen again. Because they never capture any males, the [[IHaveYouNowMyPretty implication]] is considered a AFateWorseThanDeath by the Therns, who are forced to leave these women to their fate, since they do not dare strike back or rescue them out of fear of retribution. The female Therns selected to service Issus live for one year and [[HumanSacrifice then are sacrificed in her honor]].
29th Jan '16 4:15:18 AM TheNerevarine
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** The First Born have been this to the Holy Therns for centuries, using them as playthings, frequently assaulting their kingdom to and kidnapping their women, none of which are never seen again. Because they never capture any males, the [[IHaveYouNowMyPretty implication]] is considered a AFateWorseThanDeath by the Therns and worse, these women are left to their fate, since the Therns do not dare strike back or rescue them out of fear of retribution. The female Therns selected to service Issus live for one year and [[HumanSacrifice then are sacrificed in her honor]].

to:

** The First Born have been this to the Holy Therns for centuries, using them as playthings, frequently assaulting their kingdom to and kidnapping their women, none of which are never seen again. Because they never capture any males, the [[IHaveYouNowMyPretty implication]] is considered a AFateWorseThanDeath by the Therns and worse, Therns, who are forced to leave these women are left to their fate, since the Therns they do not dare strike back or rescue them out of fear of retribution. The female Therns selected to service Issus live for one year and [[HumanSacrifice then are sacrificed in her honor]].
29th Jan '16 3:41:17 AM TheNerevarine
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** [[GodGuise Issus]] from ''Gods of Mars'' is venerated as a living goddess throughout on Mars, but she is nothing more than a [[EvilOldFolks First Born hag]] behind a complex, multi-layered cult that perpetrated slaughter, rape and cannibalism. Her followers promote her worship, luring people towards Valley Dor in search of paradise, only to be devoured by the beasts that lurked there or by her worshipers ''and this has been happening for thousands of years''. Issus savagely mistreats her female slaves and its said none of them lasts more than an year, because [[HumanSacrifice they are sacrificed in her honor yearly]]. Her own people aren't even exempt from her cruelty, as the men are brainwashed to fight and die for her as privileged duty and its implied that female Black Martians are killed off to make room for the next generation and she is the only female that had lived indefinitely for centuries. After [[TheHero John Carter]] defies her will and exposes her fraud, [[IHaveYourWife she has his wife]] (as well as two other innocent women) [[AFateWorseThanDeath thrown inside a dungeon with no way out for an entire year, where they are expected to die of starvation.]] All that just to spite him and hurt him, as she knew the other women in question were also infatuated with Carter. Issus eventually met [[KarmicDeath an satisfying end]] when [[HoistByHisOwnPetard the Black Martians savagely tore her apart in anger for manipulating them.]]

to:

** [[GodGuise Issus]] from ''Gods of Mars'' is venerated as a living goddess throughout on Mars, but she is nothing more than a [[EvilOldFolks First Born hag]] behind a complex, multi-layered cult that perpetrated slaughter, rape and cannibalism. Her followers promote her worship, luring people towards Valley Dor in search of paradise, only to be devoured by the beasts that lurked there or by her worshipers ''and this has been happening for thousands of years''. Issus savagely mistreats her female slaves and its said none of them lasts more than an year, because [[HumanSacrifice they are sacrificed in her honor yearly]]. Her own people aren't even exempt from her cruelty, as the men are brainwashed to fight and die for her as privileged duty and its implied that female Black Martians are killed off to make room for the next generation and she is the only female that had lived indefinitely for centuries. After [[TheHero John Carter]] defies her will and exposes her fraud, [[IHaveYourWife she has his wife]] (as well as two other innocent women) [[AFateWorseThanDeath thrown inside a dungeon with no way out for an entire year, where they are expected to die of starvation.]] All that just to spite him and hurt him, as she knew the other women in question were also infatuated with Carter. Issus eventually met [[KarmicDeath an satisfying end]] when [[HoistByHisOwnPetard the Black Martians savagely tore her apart in anger for manipulating them.]]



** The First Born have been this to the Holy Therns for centuries, as they frequently assault their kingdom to kidnap their women, none of which had never returned. Since they never capture any males, the [[IHaveYouNowMyPretty implication]] is considered a AFateWorseThanDeath by the Therns.

to:

** The First Born have been this to the Holy Therns for centuries, using them as they playthings, frequently assault assaulting their kingdom to kidnap and kidnapping their women, none of which had are never returned. Since seen again. Because they never capture any males, the [[IHaveYouNowMyPretty implication]] is considered a AFateWorseThanDeath by the Therns.Therns and worse, these women are left to their fate, since the Therns do not dare strike back or rescue them out of fear of retribution. The female Therns selected to service Issus live for one year and [[HumanSacrifice then are sacrificed in her honor]].
27th Jan '16 10:46:56 AM TheNerevarine
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** [[GodGuise Issus]] from ''Gods of Mars'' is venerated as a living goddess throughout on Mars, but she is nothing more than a [[EvilOldFolks First Born hag]] that behind a complex cult that lured people towards ThisIsntHeaven Valley Dor in search of paradise, only to be devoured by the beasts that lurked there or by her worshipers ''and this has been happening for thousands of years''. Issus savagely mistreats her female slaves and its said none of them lasts more than an year, because [[ImAHumanitarian she devours them]], and [[HumanSacrifice has scores of Red and White Martian women sacrificed in her honor yearly]]. Finally, after [[TheHero John Carter]] defies her will and exposes her fraud, [[IHaveYourWife she has his wife]] (as well as two other innocent women) [[AFateWorseThanDeath thrown inside a dungeon with no way out for an entire year, where they are expected to die of starvation.]] All that just to spite him and hurt him, as she knew the other women in question were also infatuated with Carter. Issus eventually met [[KarmicDeath an satisfying end]] when [[HoistByHisOwnPetard the Black Martians savagely tore her apart in anger for manipulating them.]]

to:

** [[GodGuise Issus]] from ''Gods of Mars'' is venerated as a living goddess throughout on Mars, but she is nothing more than a [[EvilOldFolks First Born hag]] that behind a complex complex, multi-layered cult that lured perpetrated slaughter, rape and cannibalism. Her followers promote her worship, luring people towards ThisIsntHeaven Valley Dor in search of paradise, only to be devoured by the beasts that lurked there or by her worshipers ''and this has been happening for thousands of years''. Issus savagely mistreats her female slaves and its said none of them lasts more than an year, because [[ImAHumanitarian she devours them]], and [[HumanSacrifice has scores of Red and White Martian women they are sacrificed in her honor yearly]]. Finally, after Her own people aren't even exempt from her cruelty, as the men are brainwashed to fight and die for her as privileged duty and its implied that female Black Martians are killed off to make room for the next generation and she is the only female that had lived indefinitely for centuries. After [[TheHero John Carter]] defies her will and exposes her fraud, [[IHaveYourWife she has his wife]] (as well as two other innocent women) [[AFateWorseThanDeath thrown inside a dungeon with no way out for an entire year, where they are expected to die of starvation.]] All that just to spite him and hurt him, as she knew the other women in question were also infatuated with Carter. Issus eventually met [[KarmicDeath an satisfying end]] when [[HoistByHisOwnPetard the Black Martians savagely tore her apart in anger for manipulating them.]]



** The Carrion Caves in ''Warlord of Mars''. A putrid graveyard riddled with the corpses of Green men and [[SuperPersistentPredator apts]], its deemed a cursed place by the Barsoomians and no one dares cross it.

to:

** The Carrion Caves in ''Warlord of Mars''. A putrid graveyard riddled with the corpses of Green men and [[SuperPersistentPredator apts]], its deemed a cursed place by the Barsoomians and no one dares cross it. Its how the Yellow Martians have kept themselves hidden for so long, since that is the only possible entrance to their domain on foot, while their advanced technology keeps any flying ships of getting too close.
** The First Born have been this to the Holy Therns for centuries, as they frequently assault their kingdom to kidnap their women, none of which had never returned. Since they never capture any males, the [[IHaveYouNowMyPretty implication]] is considered a AFateWorseThanDeath by the Therns.
10th Jan '16 1:17:49 AM TheNerevarine
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** The White Martians resemble the Nazis as supremacists with Aryan features such as blonde hair, fair skin and blue eyes, yet they predated the Nazis rise of power by decades.

to:

** [[ANaziByAnyOtherName The White Martians Martians]] resemble the Nazis as supremacists with Aryan features such as blonde hair, fair skin and blue eyes, yet they predated the Nazis rise of power by decades.
10th Jan '16 1:17:02 AM TheNerevarine
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Added DiffLines:

** The White Martians resemble the Nazis as supremacists with Aryan features such as blonde hair, fair skin and blue eyes, yet they predated the Nazis rise of power by decades.
7th Jan '16 2:35:29 PM TheNerevarine
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** [[GodGuise Issus]] from ''Gods of Mars'' is venerated as a living goddess throughout on Mars, but she is nothing more than a [[EvilOldFolks First Born hag]] that created a false cult demanding its worshipers to be lured into Valley Dor in search of paradise, only to be devoured by the beasts that lurked there or be enslaved, ''and this has been happening for thousands of years''. Issus savagely mistreats her female slaves and its said none of them lasts more than an year, because [[ImAHumanitarian she devours them]], and [[HumanSacrifice has scores of Red and White Martian women sacrificed in her honor yearly]]. Finally, after [[TheHero John Carter]] defies her will and exposes her fraud, [[IHaveYourWife she has his wife]] (as well as two other innocent women) [[AFateWorseThanDeath thrown inside a dungeon with no way out for an entire year, where they are expected to die of starvation.]] All that just to spite him and hurt him, as she knew the other women in question were also infatuated with Carter. Issus eventually met [[KarmicDeath an satisfying end]] when [[HoistByHisOwnPetard the Black Martians savagely tore her apart in anger for manipulating them.]]

to:

** [[GodGuise Issus]] from ''Gods of Mars'' is venerated as a living goddess throughout on Mars, but she is nothing more than a [[EvilOldFolks First Born hag]] that created behind a false complex cult demanding its worshipers to be that lured into people towards ThisIsntHeaven Valley Dor in search of paradise, only to be devoured by the beasts that lurked there or be enslaved, by her worshipers ''and this has been happening for thousands of years''. Issus savagely mistreats her female slaves and its said none of them lasts more than an year, because [[ImAHumanitarian she devours them]], and [[HumanSacrifice has scores of Red and White Martian women sacrificed in her honor yearly]]. Finally, after [[TheHero John Carter]] defies her will and exposes her fraud, [[IHaveYourWife she has his wife]] (as well as two other innocent women) [[AFateWorseThanDeath thrown inside a dungeon with no way out for an entire year, where they are expected to die of starvation.]] All that just to spite him and hurt him, as she knew the other women in question were also infatuated with Carter. Issus eventually met [[KarmicDeath an satisfying end]] when [[HoistByHisOwnPetard the Black Martians savagely tore her apart in anger for manipulating them.]]
11th Dec '15 2:43:12 AM Ramidel
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* EvilIsSexy: Phaidor. [[DaddysLittleVillain A Thern princess]] [[DiamondsIntheBuff wearing nothing more than jewelry]]. Many illustrators depict her just like [[GreenSkinnedSpaceBabe Dejah Thoris]] with [[BlondesAreEvil blonde hair]] [[LightIsNotGood and white skin]], but with a [[AGodAmI god complex]] and [[ImAHumanitarian taste for cannibalism.]] Even the hero notes she is very beautiful, despite turning down her advances. Its notable because she is the only named villain whose attractiveness is acknowledged.

to:

* EvilIsSexy: Phaidor. [[DaddysLittleVillain A Thern princess]] [[DiamondsIntheBuff wearing nothing more than jewelry]]. Many illustrators depict her just like [[GreenSkinnedSpaceBabe Dejah Thoris]] with [[BlondesAreEvil blonde hair]] [[LightIsNotGood and white skin]], but with a [[AGodAmI god complex]] and [[ImAHumanitarian taste for cannibalism.]] Even the hero notes she is very beautiful, despite turning down her advances. Its notable because she is the only named villain whose attractiveness is acknowledged.
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