History YMMV / HarryPotterAndTheOrderOfThePhoenix

23rd Jun '17 9:33:10 AM fearlessnikki
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* AuthorsSavingThrow: In the film adaptation, the DA sign-up sheet Jinx, which was a [[NeverLiveItDown controversial moment for Hermione's character]], was removed.

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* AuthorsSavingThrow: AuthorsSavingThrow:
**
In the film adaptation, the DA sign-up sheet Jinx, which was a [[NeverLiveItDown controversial moment for Hermione's character]], was removed.removed.
** Fans had taken issue with the characterization of Ron in the previous four films - giving many of his better lines to Hermione and turning him into more of a bumbling sidekick. This film shows him publicly defending Harry in the common room, staying up to watch over Harry in his sleep and getting other little moments throughout the films (he's shown performing a Patronus, whereas in the book he wasn't able to).
** In response to using PositiveDiscrimination between Hermione and Ron, two little moments in the latter part of the film subvert it. When Umbridge prepares to use the Cruciatus curse on Harry, Ron tries to fight off his captor. He also tries to do the same when they're held by the Death Eaters in the Ministry, whereas Hermione just cries in pain.



* DesignatedVillain: While Sirius' treatment of Kreacher is painted in a poor light, it should be noted that while he was mostly just grumpy and uncaring towards him and never abused his authority or fired the house elf, Kreacher was the antagonist in their relaionship, constantly and ubceasingly insulting him and his friends, including calling Hermione a mudblood, and plots his murder at the first opportunity. It's little wonder Sirius doesn't treat him with love and respect.

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* DesignatedVillain: While Sirius' treatment of Kreacher is painted in a poor light, it should be noted that while he was mostly just grumpy and uncaring towards him and never abused his authority or fired the house elf, Kreacher was the antagonist in their relaionship, relationship, constantly and ubceasingly unceasingly insulting him and his friends, including calling Hermione a mudblood, and plots his murder at the first opportunity. It's little wonder Sirius doesn't treat him with love and respect. Part of the problem is a House Elf's BlueAndOrangeMorality - only loyal to those who are kind to them. Sirius hated his house and his family, and that included Kreacher.



* EnsembleDarkhorse: Luna Lovegood. Originally only to have importance in this book, by the end of the series she is the sixth member of the TrueCompanions group and the only non-Gryffindor to be in it. Luna's so popular, she managed to make her Quibbler critters a popular source of Arbitrary Skepticism jokes in the fandom, and many fans were disappointed that she never discovers a Crumple-Horned Snorkack during her time as a Magizoologist.

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* EnsembleDarkhorse: Luna Lovegood. Originally only to have importance in this book, by the end of the series she is the sixth member of the TrueCompanions group and the only non-Gryffindor to be in it. Luna's so popular, she managed to make her Quibbler critters a popular source of Arbitrary Skepticism jokes in the fandom, and many fans were disappointed that she never discovers a Crumple-Horned Snorkack during her time as a Magizoologist. Creator/EvannaLynch also became one of the cast, as JK Rowling found her casting so perfect she said that whenever she wrote Luna, Evanna's voice played in her mind.



* UnintentionallySympathetic: Everyone plays [[spoiler: Marietta's]] betrayal of the DA as a MoralEventHorizon, but she did it out of fear that her mother would lose her job. Of course, her mother's job is being a stooge for Umbridge in installing surveillance over the Floo Network which more or less leads Harry and others in the fandom to string the WorldsSmallestViolin (especially since Umbridge has made it harder for genuinely struggling and upstanding folks like Lupin to get legal work).

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* UnintentionallySympathetic: Everyone plays [[spoiler: Marietta's]] betrayal of the DA as a MoralEventHorizon, but she did it out of fear that her mother would lose her job. Of course, her mother's job is being a stooge for Umbridge in installing surveillance over the Floo Network which more or less leads Harry and others in the fandom to string the WorldsSmallestViolin (especially since Umbridge has made it harder for genuinely struggling and upstanding folks like Lupin to get legal work). There's also the matter of it being heavily implied that Marietta didn't even want to join the DA in the first place and was pressured into going to support Cho.
11th Apr '17 10:24:18 AM Animeking1108
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** Was [[spoiler: Marietta's]] jinxing well-justified, or did her FreudianExcuse make it come across as a MoralEventHorizon for Hermione?

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** Was The Sneak Jinx. Some readers and WordOfGod defend it because [[spoiler: Marietta]] was a traitor. However, this ended up being the most controversial scene in the book for a multitude of reasons:
***
[[spoiler: Marietta's]] jinxing well-justified, or did reason for betraying Dumbledore's Army was out of fear that her FreudianExcuse make it come across as a MoralEventHorizon mother would lose her job rather than malice.
*** [[ProtagonistCenteredMorality It makes Harry and Hermione look like]] [[{{Hypocrite}} hypocrites]] because they're basically doing what Umbridge was doing [[NotSoDifferent by disfiguring people they deem disloyal]].
*** The fact that [[spoiler: Marietta]] still has her boils, even after getting some LaserGuidedAmnesia, meaning she's disfigured and shunned
for Hermione?something [[AmnesiacsAreInnocent she doesn't even remember doing]].
*** An act like that should be considered Dark Magic and vigilante justice, with some even comparing it [[Film/BatmanVSupermanDawnOfJustice the Bat Brand]].
21st Mar '17 3:49:58 PM kquinn0830
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** When Sirius encouraged Harry to set up the DA, what was his main reason for doing so? Was it to make sure Harry and his friends could protect themselves against Voldemort, or was it the chance to rebel against The Man once again, through his godson?

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** When Sirius encouraged Harry to set up the DA, what was his main reason for doing so? Was it to make sure Harry and his friends could protect themselves against Voldemort, or was it the chance to rebel against The Man once again, through his godson?godson? Or maybe a little bit of both?
14th Mar '17 6:27:36 PM NightShade96
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* IdiotPlot: One reason why the book is such a ContestedSequel is that a lot of the main plot depends on people acting like total idiots and the plot and resolution feels highly contrived:
** There is Harry himself who could have avoided lots of troubles and the ending altogether if he had 1) Listened to Dumbledore (and finished his Occlumency lessons), 2) Listened to Snape (and finished his Occlumency lessons), 3) Listened to Hermione, who despite not having a Scar-Hotline to Voldemort figured out that Harry was walking into a trap, and finally, 4) Simply listened to Sirius and ''used the mirror he gave him'', and related to that, Sirius not mentioning the mirror to Harry when he contacted him through the fireplace.
** There is Dumbledore who simply decided to keep Harry LockedOutOfTheLoop without even telling him basic details like ''don't take the scar visions too seriously'' (practical advice that needed no sharing of special secrets at all), who furthermore appointed Snape to give him the lessons despite knowing how he and Harry felt and ''not'' strong-arming Snape to be more patient with Harry. Related to this is the fact that, Occlumency ultimately plays no role in the final books and Dumbledore simply [[ShootTheShaggyDog shrugs away the entire plot]].
** Likewise Dumbledore reveals that the Order has a secret means of communication that is inaccessible to the Death Eaters [[spoiler:and later books reveal that it relates to the Patronus, apparently neither Dumbledore nor anyone in the Order felt it necessary for Harry to be able to contact them in an immediate, safe and accurate manner if he was in an emergency and needed to contact them. Especially since Harry knew how to cast a Patronus already]].
** Everything about Umbridge's assignment to Hogwarts. For starters, she's ObviouslyEvil, with her not-so-very subtle disdain for Harry during his trial, [[NamesToRunAwayFromReallyFast the fact that her name is a]] [[PunnyName pun on the word "umbrage"]], and her position allowing her access to the Dementors, you'd think Fudge would keep a sharper eye on her. Another problem is that Harry, or anybody else Umbridge punishes, doesn't just simply report her for her medieval disciplinary methods. Surely, Dumbledore would have believed Harry. While the scar the Black Quill leaves isn't noticeable, it's still there. How many children does Umbridge have to mutilate for somebody to get that she doesn't play for the right team? All of this was to demonstrate how ignorant Fudge was, but that's really going a long way just to give a commentary on politicians.
** The fact that this is the [[Literature/HarryPotterAndTheChamberOfSecrets third]] [[Literature/HarryPotterAndTheGobletOfFire book]] in the series with a subplot about Harry's fellow Gryffindors distrusting him, [[AesopAmnesia despite the multiple times Harry has proven how trustworthy he was]].
** Lucius Malfoy screws up what was supposed to be the easiest operation: wait for Harry's arrival in the Ministery atrium, ambush him there, disarm, take hostage, walk to the storage, and make him take the prophesy orb. Instead he waits ''in the storage'', wasting time, and lets Harry take the orb before even revealing himself, meaning he could no longer attack Harry for the fear of breaking the orb.

to:

* IdiotPlot: One reason why the book is such a ContestedSequel is that a lot of the main plot depends on people acting like total idiots and the plot and resolution feels highly contrived:
** There is Harry himself who could have avoided lots of troubles and the ending altogether if he had 1) Listened to Dumbledore (and finished his Occlumency lessons), 2) Listened to Snape (and finished his Occlumency lessons), 3) Listened to Hermione, who despite not having a Scar-Hotline to Voldemort figured out that Harry was walking into a trap, and finally, 4) Simply listened to Sirius and ''used the mirror he gave him'', and related to that, Sirius not mentioning the mirror to Harry when he contacted him through the fireplace.
** There is Dumbledore who simply decided to keep Harry LockedOutOfTheLoop without even telling him basic details like ''don't take the scar visions too seriously'' (practical advice that needed no sharing of special secrets at all), who furthermore appointed Snape to give him the lessons despite knowing how he and Harry felt and ''not'' strong-arming Snape to be more patient with Harry. Related to this is the fact that, Occlumency ultimately plays no role in the final books and Dumbledore simply [[ShootTheShaggyDog shrugs away the entire plot]].
** Likewise Dumbledore reveals that the Order has a secret means of communication that is inaccessible to the Death Eaters [[spoiler:and later books reveal that it relates to the Patronus, apparently neither Dumbledore nor anyone in the Order felt it necessary for Harry to be able to contact them in an immediate, safe and accurate manner if he was in an emergency and needed to contact them. Especially since Harry knew how to cast a Patronus already]].
** Everything about Umbridge's assignment to Hogwarts. For starters, she's ObviouslyEvil, with her not-so-very subtle disdain for Harry during his trial, [[NamesToRunAwayFromReallyFast the fact that her name is a]] [[PunnyName pun on the word "umbrage"]], and her position allowing her access to the Dementors, you'd think Fudge would keep a sharper eye on her. Another problem is that Harry, or anybody else Umbridge punishes, doesn't just simply report her for her medieval disciplinary methods. Surely, Dumbledore would have believed Harry. While the scar the Black Quill leaves isn't noticeable, it's still there. How many children does Umbridge have to mutilate for somebody to get that she doesn't play for the right team? All of this was to demonstrate how ignorant Fudge was, but that's really going a long way just to give a commentary on politicians.
** The fact that this is the [[Literature/HarryPotterAndTheChamberOfSecrets third]] [[Literature/HarryPotterAndTheGobletOfFire book]] in the series with a subplot about Harry's fellow Gryffindors distrusting him, [[AesopAmnesia despite the multiple times Harry has proven how trustworthy he was]].
** Lucius Malfoy screws up what was supposed to be the easiest operation: wait for Harry's arrival in the Ministery atrium, ambush him there, disarm, take hostage, walk to the storage, and make him take the prophesy orb. Instead he waits ''in the storage'', wasting time, and lets Harry take the orb before even revealing himself, meaning he could no longer attack Harry for the fear of breaking the orb.
Has [[IdiotPlot/HarryPotterAndTheOrderOfThePhoenix its own page]].



* MoralEventHorizon: Dolores Jane Umbridge has long since passed over it. She starts by cheerfully calling Harry a liar, forcing him to cut into his own flesh and do lines with his own blood, tries to sabotage Gryffindor's chances of winning the Quidditch Cup by removing three of their best players, cruelly mocks Hagrid's teaching, gleefully tries to sack Professor Trelawney (and thoroughly enjoys her despondency), takes over from Dumbledore, tries to arrest Hagrid for no reason, nearly kills [=McGonagall=] in a sneak attack, and finally tries to used the Cruciatus Curse on Harry. Oh, and it turns out she was the one who [[spoiler:set Dementors on Harry and Dudley in the beginning]]. So, take your pick. Oh, and guess what? She gets ''[[UpToEleven worse]]'' in ''Deathly Hallows''.
** In the movie, there's a scene that shows that she forces ''first years'' to use the [[FanNickname Blood Quill]].
** [[EvilUncle Uncle]] [[JerkAss Vernon]] [[FatBastard Dursley]] crosses it in the novel (but not in the film) when he tries to kick Harry out of the house, after finding that he would likely die in the hands of [[BigBad Lord Voldemort]] if he did this.

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* MoralEventHorizon: MoralEventHorizon:
**
Dolores Jane Umbridge has long since passed over it. She starts by cheerfully calling Harry a liar, forcing him to cut into his own flesh and do lines with his own blood, tries to sabotage Gryffindor's chances of winning the Quidditch Cup by removing three of their best players, cruelly mocks Hagrid's teaching, gleefully tries to sack Professor Trelawney (and thoroughly enjoys her despondency), takes over from Dumbledore, tries to arrest Hagrid for no reason, nearly kills [=McGonagall=] in a sneak attack, and finally tries to used the Cruciatus Curse on Harry. Oh, and it turns out she was the one who [[spoiler:set Dementors on Harry and Dudley in the beginning]]. So, take your pick. Oh, and guess what? She gets ''[[UpToEleven worse]]'' in ''Deathly Hallows''.
** *** In the movie, there's a scene that shows that she forces ''first years'' to use the [[FanNickname Blood Quill]].
** [[EvilUncle Uncle]] [[JerkAss [[{{Jerkass}} Vernon]] [[FatBastard Dursley]] crosses it in the novel (but not in the film) when he tries to kick Harry out of the house, after finding that he would likely die in the hands of [[BigBad Lord Voldemort]] if he did this.



* {{Narm}}: Some found Harry's meltdown in Dumbledore's office after [[spoiler: Sirius died]] to be this. It looked less like he was venting his anger and more like one of Dudley's temper tantrums in the first book. The earlier rant in Grimmauld Place is like this too, with most of Harry's dialogue in block capitals - and some fans have jokingly nicknamed it 'Caps Lock Harry'.

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* {{Narm}}: {{Narm}}:
**
Some found Harry's meltdown in Dumbledore's office after [[spoiler: Sirius died]] to be this. It looked less like he was venting his anger and more like one of Dudley's temper tantrums in the first book. The earlier rant in Grimmauld Place is like this too, with most of Harry's dialogue in block capitals - and some fans have jokingly nicknamed it 'Caps Lock Harry'.



* NeverLiveItDown: The release of the fifth book and the "Snape's Worst Memory" chapter has become the defining image of James Potter's character among the book's fans and especially Snape's fans, rather than the positive way he was regarded and described in the first four books as a great wizard, loyal friend and good father. The fact that Rowling never bothered to flesh out James's life with more flashbacks showing him in a more positive light (after he "grew out of" his bully phase) doesn't help.

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* NeverLiveItDown: NeverLiveItDown:
**
The release of the fifth book and the "Snape's Worst Memory" chapter has become the defining image of James Potter's character among the book's fans and especially Snape's fans, rather than the positive way he was regarded and described in the first four books as a great wizard, loyal friend and good father. The fact that Rowling never bothered to flesh out James's life with more flashbacks showing him in a more positive light (after he "grew out of" his bully phase) doesn't help.



* NightmareFuel: The Death Eater whose head -- just his head -- was regressed to infancy.

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* NightmareFuel: NightmareFuel:
**
The Death Eater whose head -- just his head -- was regressed to infancy.
11th Mar '17 12:35:10 AM PrincessGwen
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** There is Harry himself who could have avoid lots of troubles and the ending altogether if he had 1) Listened to Dumbledore (and finished his Occlumency lessons), 2) Listened to Snape (and finished his Occlumency lessons), 3) Listened to Hermione, who despite not having a Scar-Hotline to Voldemort figured out that Harry was walking into a trap, and finally, 4) Simply listened to Sirius and ''used the mirror he gave him'', and related to that, Sirius not mentioning the mirror to Harry when he contacted him through the fireplace.

to:

** There is Harry himself who could have avoid avoided lots of troubles and the ending altogether if he had 1) Listened to Dumbledore (and finished his Occlumency lessons), 2) Listened to Snape (and finished his Occlumency lessons), 3) Listened to Hermione, who despite not having a Scar-Hotline to Voldemort figured out that Harry was walking into a trap, and finally, 4) Simply listened to Sirius and ''used the mirror he gave him'', and related to that, Sirius not mentioning the mirror to Harry when he contacted him through the fireplace.



** The fact that this is the [[Literature/HarryPotterAndTheChamberOfSecrets third]] [[Literature/HarryPotterAndTheGobletOfFire book]] in the series with a subplot about Harry's fellow Griffindors distrusting him, [[AesopAmnesia despite the multiple times Harry has proven how trustworthy he was]].
** Lucious Malfoy screws up what was supposed to be the easiest operation: wait for Harry's arrival in the Ministery atrium, ambush him there, disarm, take hostage, walk to the storage, make him take the prophesy orb. Instead he waits ''in the storage'', wasting time, and lets Harry take the orb before even revealin himself, meaning he could no longer attack Harry for the fear of breaking the orb.

to:

** The fact that this is the [[Literature/HarryPotterAndTheChamberOfSecrets third]] [[Literature/HarryPotterAndTheGobletOfFire book]] in the series with a subplot about Harry's fellow Griffindors Gryffindors distrusting him, [[AesopAmnesia despite the multiple times Harry has proven how trustworthy he was]].
** Lucious Lucius Malfoy screws up what was supposed to be the easiest operation: wait for Harry's arrival in the Ministery atrium, ambush him there, disarm, take hostage, walk to the storage, and make him take the prophesy orb. Instead he waits ''in the storage'', wasting time, and lets Harry take the orb before even revealin revealing himself, meaning he could no longer attack Harry for the fear of breaking the orb.



* MemeticPsychopath: Between the jinxing of Marrietta and the popular theory that Umbridge [[spoiler: was gang-raped by the centaurs with her having a victorious smile afterword]], some fans like to think there's a sociopathic side to Hermione.

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* MemeticPsychopath: Between the jinxing of Marrietta Marietta and the popular theory that Umbridge [[spoiler: was gang-raped by the centaurs with her having a victorious smile afterword]], some fans like to think there's a sociopathic side to Hermione.



** Umbridge is so [[ObviouslyEvil blatant]] and sometimes cartoonish with how evil she is, its any wonder it took so long for her to meet her downfall.

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** Umbridge is so [[ObviouslyEvil blatant]] and sometimes cartoonish with how evil she is, its it's any wonder it took so long for her to meet her downfall.
7th Mar '17 8:49:30 AM SunriseWarrior
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* DesignatedHero: Hermione Granger. First, there was jinxing the sign-up sheet for the DA to deform traitors without their knowledge. Then there was her complete inability to listen to reason when she kept trying to liberate the House Elves.
** In fairness to the last one, just about every last character she talks to her about that disagrees with her, including Harry himself. Overall the narrative seems to paint her in the wrong.
** In the film, Hermione ''also'' goes along with the blatant bullying of Luna Lovegood, introducing her as 'Loony' in the introductory scene of Luna to the others; for someone who has been bullied and subjected to abuse for her status at Hogwarts herself, you'd think Hermione would know better and would probably be more supportive and open-minded than others in terms of some of the things Luna comes out with. As it is, the film uses Luna's status to make her and Harry connect a little better, given they're both out on the fringes in terms of popularity at the beginning of the film.
7th Mar '17 8:42:14 AM SunriseWarrior
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** Harry/Cho was swiftly sunken in this book and along with it nearly all of its supporters.

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** Harry/Cho was swiftly sunken in this book and book, along with it nearly all of its supporters.
7th Mar '17 8:40:52 AM SunriseWarrior
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* WhatAnIdiot: Marietta [[spoiler: attempting to rat out the DA, causing Dumbledore to leave]] could have easily been avoided if Hermione told the members that the sign-up sheet was jinxed, giving them another reason not to snitch.
** [[FridgeLogic Then who would have signed it? Or who wouldn't find a way to break the jinx?]]
** [[FridgeBrilliance Tell them after they signed the sheet]]? Which again means that Umbridge or someone else would have had to break the curse.[[note]]From Hermione's point of view, the jinx eliminates the problem of suspicion within the ranks in case of betrayal. There's a foolproof way of identifying the snitch which prevents the group from suspecting and infighting and doubting each other's loyalty[[/note]]
7th Mar '17 8:37:54 AM SunriseWarrior
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** Was [[spoiler: Marietta's]] jinxing well-justified, or did her FreudianExcuse make it come across as a MoralEventHorizon for the main trio?

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** Was [[spoiler: Marietta's]] jinxing well-justified, or did her FreudianExcuse make it come across as a MoralEventHorizon for the main trio?Hermione?
6th Mar '17 6:52:48 AM NNinja
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** [[spoiler:Marietta Edgecombe betrays the DA to Umbridge. This activates a secret jinx from Hermione that writes "SNEAK" across her face in boils. Cho considers this a mean trick, and eventually breaks up with Harry over it. Thing is, Marietta]] was motivated by the perceived risk of her mother losing her job at the Ministry[[note]]It is never specified how her mother's job is under threat since she's already indicated to be a stooge for Umbridge in policing the Floo, and there's no way Marietta's actions would have threatened her career unless she let it slip to either her Mother or Umbridge that she is part of the DA[[/note]], never wanted to join in the first place (Cho pressured her), and it's kind of unethical to trick people into signing a contract that punishes them for betrayal ''without'' telling them. (Heck, Hermione didn't even let her best friends know what would happen until later.) Rowling herself seems to be firmly on Hermione's side; when she confirmed that [[spoiler:Marietta was permanently scarred]], she said "I loathe a traitor." The result: some fans sympathize with [[spoiler:Marietta and Cho]] while the books themselves take Hermione's side. Some even insist that Hermione is similar to Dolores Umbridge who also won't stand for disloyalty going to extremes (including physical abuse and [[spoiler:sending Dementors]]) to express this viewpoint. She permanently scars Harry with the words "I must not tell lies" on his hand. Defenders point out that Harry wasn't disloyal to the Ministry, he was critical of it (which is not the same thing) and Umbridge is torturing because she (and Fudge by extension) CantTakeCriticism whereas Hermione's jinx only triggers for actual compromise and sabotage.
** Becomes a case of BothSidesHaveAPoint: Harry during his last fight with Cho points out that [[spoiler:Marietta also sold out Cho, her BEST FRIEND, for fear of Madam Edgecombe who was searching the school fires and loyally serving Umbridge, losing her job.]] Seriously. [[spoiler:Marietta]] had six months to choose sides, and she was willing to let others get expelled, including Cho, for "family pressure". She also became an UnwittingInstigatorOfDoom because things go FromBadToWorse with Dumbledore forced on the lam and Umbridge taking over Hogwarts. As for the jinx, there's a reason Hermione didn't tell anyone; if she told them, they could have set up a counter-jinx to nullify the contract's binding agreement. It also creates an aura of distrust if people are told that the contract they sign will expose them if they're disloyal.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=YMMV.HarryPotterAndTheOrderOfThePhoenix