2 Days Left to Support a Troper-Created Project : Personal Space (discuss)

History YMMV / BaldursGate

23rd May '16 2:47:00 PM supergod
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* UnpopularPopularCharacter[=/=]UnintentionallySympathetic: Edwin is an arrogant {{Jerkass}} who [[KickTheDog insults]] and [[InsufferableGenius belittles]] your party at every opportunity, and the comeuppance he gets for it (including his final fate), are meant to be richly deserved LaserGuidedKarma. Yet many people find him likable or even relatable because the people he accuses of being stupid often [[StrawmanHasAPoint really are stupid]], his schemes backfire in a way embarrassing enough to make him come across as an IneffectualSympatheticVillain, and [[SmugSuper his magic potential really is as great as he claims]]. For some {{Fangirl}}s this wasn't enough, for whom he falls headfirst into TroubledButCute territory.

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* UnpopularPopularCharacter[=/=]UnintentionallySympathetic: UnpopularPopularCharacter[=/=]UnintentionallySympathetic:
**
Edwin is an arrogant {{Jerkass}} who [[KickTheDog insults]] and [[InsufferableGenius belittles]] your party at every opportunity, and the comeuppance he gets for it (including his final fate), are meant to be richly deserved LaserGuidedKarma. Yet many people find him likable or even relatable because the people he accuses of being stupid often [[StrawmanHasAPoint really are stupid]], his schemes backfire in a way embarrassing enough to make him come across as an IneffectualSympatheticVillain, and [[SmugSuper his magic potential really is as great as he claims]]. For some {{Fangirl}}s this wasn't enough, for whom he falls headfirst into TroubledButCute territory.
23rd May '16 11:22:46 AM MinisterOfSinister
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* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: Arguably the Garrick[=/=]Skie[=/=]Eldoth LoveTriangle in the first game, where two parties hold the IdiotBall and the third is unsympathetic to the core -- especially since it never gets resolved in an unmodded game. Also in the sequel where you have to choose in the guild war in Athkatha who to support between [[MurderInc the Shadow Thieves]] and [[OurVampiresAreDifferent Bodhi's Vampire cult]].

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* DarknessInducedAudienceApathy: Arguably the Garrick[=/=]Skie[=/=]Eldoth Garrick/Skie/Eldoth LoveTriangle in the first game, where two parties hold the IdiotBall and the third is unsympathetic to the core -- especially since it never gets resolved in an unmodded game.game (although thankfully Skie comes to her senses in ''Siege of Dragonspear''). Also in the sequel where you have to choose in the guild war in Athkatha who to support between [[MurderInc the Shadow Thieves]] and [[OurVampiresAreDifferent Bodhi's Vampire cult]].



** On the villainous side, Sarevok takes a hammer and tongs to every stereotype about ChaoticEvil antagonists. Rather than being a [[ChewingTheScenery scenery-devouring]], [[AxCrazy mentally-unhinged]] lunatic, Sarevok is scary precisely because he ''isn't'' like that -- unless he gets '''really''' angry, that is. Despite being a warrior, he's a clever and calculating bad guy who ''[[DefiedTrope refuses]]'' to grab the VillainBall and manages to not only evade the player's notice while bouncing back from their every success, but also to direct their hostility towards his father and then frame them for his death; he might have succeeded in his EvilPlan if his opponent was the the leader of a greenhorn adventuring party and not [[TheAce Charname]]. Irenicus has moments as well, such as [[DefiedTrope refusing]] to engage the player in any "[[JustBetweenYouAndMe villain's exposition]]", deciding to just [[JustEatGilligan wipe the player's party]] with a OneHitKill unless they take the precaution of [[GondorCallsForAid getting help]] and [[MotiveRant making it clear]] to Ellesime that love ''doesn't'' [[LoveRedeems redeem the baddie]] -- [[spoiler:especially when said baddie has no soul to feel that love with]].

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** On the villainous side, Sarevok takes a hammer and tongs to every stereotype about ChaoticEvil antagonists. Rather than being a [[ChewingTheScenery scenery-devouring]], [[AxCrazy mentally-unhinged]] lunatic, Sarevok is scary precisely because he ''isn't'' like that -- unless he gets '''really''' angry, that is. Despite being a warrior, he's a clever and calculating bad guy who ''[[DefiedTrope refuses]]'' ''refuses'' to grab the VillainBall and manages to not only evade the player's notice while bouncing back from their every success, but also to direct their hostility towards his father and then frame them for his death; he might have succeeded in his EvilPlan if his opponent was the the leader of a greenhorn adventuring party and not [[TheAce Charname]]. Irenicus has his moments as well, such as [[DefiedTrope refusing]] to engage the player in any "[[JustBetweenYouAndMe villain's exposition]]", deciding to just [[JustEatGilligan wipe the player's party]] with a OneHitKill unless they take the precaution of [[GondorCallsForAid getting help]] and [[MotiveRant making it clear]] to Ellesime that love ''doesn't'' [[LoveRedeems redeem the baddie]] -- [[spoiler:especially when said baddie has no soul to feel that love with]].



* WhatAnIdiot: Skie about Eldoth. What will it take to make her realise he's a gold-digging scumbag who's so slimy he could've slithered out of a reptile egg at birth?
** Skie's biography states that she's hoping Eldoth will give her the life of adventure she wants. Too bad she can't see that she's neither suited for the adventuring life nor going to have a boyfriend once Eldoth gets what he wants.

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* WhatAnIdiot: WhatAnIdiot:
**
Skie about Eldoth. What will it take to make her realise he's a gold-digging scumbag who's so slimy he could've slithered out of a reptile egg at birth?
** *** Skie's biography states that she's hoping Eldoth will give her the life of adventure she wants. Too bad she can't see that she's neither suited for the adventuring life nor going to have a boyfriend once Eldoth gets what he wants. Thankfully she realises what Eldoth is and dumps him in ''Seige of Dragonspear'', making something of herself without him in the process.
23rd May '16 11:02:27 AM Tightwire
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* {{Narm}}: The way the new [=NPCs=] are introduced in the Enhanced Edition in the first game, especially Rasaad, who is taunted by [[StrawLoser a hilariously unfriendly random civilian who fits just about every category of "ignorant country oaf"]], just to show off how noble and capable he is (incidentally, Rasaad is [[MagikarpPower not very capable at this point in the game]], so beating a civilian who can't fight back really ain't a wonder). Ditto for Neera, who is pursued by a Red Wizard who [[MemeticMolester gives off rapist vibes to such a an absurd degree]] that he might as well carry around a badge that identifies him as one. Dorn's introduction scene, [[BigDamnHeroes while]] [[DynamicEntry awesome]], has some narm-y vibes as well, since Senjak is [[{{Anvilicious}} screamingly]] [[FantasticRacism racist]] about Dorn's orcish heritage and Dorotea attempts to convince Dorn she still cares about him and was {{just following orders}} (which Dorn shoots down as "a coward's excuse"), evidently to ensure we feel zero sympathy for them, as if the pair attempting to rob the player party wasn't enough.
** It probably doesn't help that Dorotea's voice actress [[DullSurprise didn't exactly do a brilliant job]].

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* {{Narm}}: The way the new [=NPCs=] are introduced in the Enhanced Edition in the first game, especially Rasaad, who game,
** Rasaad
is being taunted by [[StrawLoser a hilariously unfriendly random civilian who fits just about every category of "ignorant country oaf"]], just to show off how noble and capable he is (incidentally, Rasaad is [[MagikarpPower not very capable at this point in the game]], so beating a civilian who can't fight back really ain't a wonder). wonder).
**
Ditto for Neera, who is pursued by a Red Wizard who [[MemeticMolester gives off rapist vibes to such a an absurd degree]] that he might as well carry around have a little badge that identifies him as one. with the words 'sexual predator' on it.
**
Dorn's BigDamnHeroes introduction scene, [[BigDamnHeroes while]] scene [[DynamicEntry awesome]], not only showcases his general awesomeness]], but has some lovely narm-y vibes as well, since Senjak is [[{{Anvilicious}} screamingly]] [[FantasticRacism racist]] down to Senjak's FantasticRacism about Dorn's orcish heritage and Dorotea Dorotea's pretty feeble attempts to convince Dorn she still cares about him and was {{just following orders}} (which orders}}, which Dorn shoots down as "a coward's excuse"), evidently to ensure excuse". As a result we feel pretty much zero sympathy for them, them when they die, as if them trying to ambush and raid the pair attempting to rob the player party wasn't enough.
** It probably doesn't help that Dorotea's voice actress [[DullSurprise didn't exactly do a brilliant job]].
good enough.



** Khalid was more or less TheUnfavourite in the eyes of the fandom, due to being a weak-willed [[TheGenericGuy Generic Guy]] whose stats were outclassed by other fighters -- Kagain was the better tank, while Shar-Teel, Montaron, Ajantis and Coran were better on the damage front. He also had the bad habit of running away because he was very prone to morale failures. Worse yet, he was attached at the hip to Jaheira and the player couldn't get rid of him without losing her as well. That said, his death hit many players hard, no doubt in part because of the effect it had on Jaheira.

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** Khalid was is more or less TheUnfavourite in the eyes of the fandom, due to being a weak-willed [[TheGenericGuy Generic Guy]] whose stats were outclassed by other fighters -- - Kagain was the better tank, while Shar-Teel, Montaron, Ajantis and Coran were better on the damage front.front, Rasaad's speed makes up for how little equipment he can use, and Dorn is the perfect pack mule. He also had the bad habit of running away because he was very prone to morale failures. Worse yet, he was attached at the hip to Jaheira and the player couldn't get rid of him without losing her as well. That said, his death hit many players hard, no doubt in part because of the effect it had on Jaheira.
23rd May '16 10:37:49 AM Tightwire
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Added DiffLines:

** Dorn. Sure, he's evil, but was he destined to be that way, or were there circumstances beyond his control that forced him into a corner? He's not treacherous and he's pretty honest about what he does. Certainly in the first game it's not tough to feel bad for him when his old companions are such jerks (and have some pretty good equipment too).
10th May '16 6:18:10 PM pi4t
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** Joneleth [[BigBad Irenicus]] of ''[[VideoGame/BaldursGateII Shadows Of Amn]]'' introduced himself by putting the hero and his sister through ColdBloodedTorture, having already murdered one of their companions and dissected the other in his [[MadScientist experiments]]. An inspection of his lair reveals twisted abominations he has created, [[AndIMustScream living in endless agony]], and a host of Dryads he has kept enslaved as his concubines. Irenicus forces the hero to awaken his power as a child of the dead god Bhaal so Irenicus can steal his soul, powering his magic with the souls of luckless captives who he states have no purpose but to die by his hand. It is revealed Irenicus was one an elf named Jonoleth who attempted to seize power by usurping a God of the elven Pantheon and killing their tree of life, for which he and his sister were stripped of their souls and banished. Irenicus tries to repeat the same action, and when confronted by his former lover, the Elven Queen Ellesime, Irenicus says he no longer remembers their love, and he feels nothing. He is only "Irenicus," meaning "Shattered One," and all he desires is power and vengeance.
** In ''[[VideoGame/BaldursGateIIThroneOfBhaal Throne of Bhaal]]'', [[BigBad Amelissan the Blackhearted]], The Annointed of Bhaal, [[BitchInSheepsClothing poses as a kind figure]], saving the children of the dead God from the brutal blood purges and giving them sanctuary in a city. However, behind the scenes, she is the one {{manipulati|ve bastard}}ng the purges, killing any with any connection to Bhaal, while simultaneously forming a clandestine group of powerful Bhaalspawn called The Five to plunge the world into war. Amelissan manipulates the heroes into eliminating the Five, but not before she allows their armies to invade the city, slaughtering everyone within, including the refugees who trusted her. Having gathered all of their Godly essence, Amelissan is willing to throw the cosmos into disarray to, instead of resurrecting her God, [[TheStarscream betray him and take his place as the new Lord Of Murder]].

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** Joneleth [[BigBad Irenicus]] of ''[[VideoGame/BaldursGateII Shadows Of Amn]]'' introduced himself by putting the hero and [[spoiler: his sister sister]] through ColdBloodedTorture, having already murdered one of their companions and dissected the other in his [[MadScientist experiments]]. An inspection of his lair reveals twisted abominations he has created, [[AndIMustScream living in endless agony]], and a host of Dryads he has kept enslaved as his concubines. Irenicus forces the hero to awaken his power as a child of the dead god Bhaal so Irenicus can steal his soul, powering his magic with the souls of luckless captives who he states have no purpose but to die by his hand. It is revealed Irenicus was one an elf named Jonoleth who attempted to seize power by usurping a God of the elven Pantheon and killing their tree of life, for which he and his sister were stripped of their souls and banished. Irenicus tries to repeat the same action, and when confronted by his former lover, the Elven Queen Ellesime, Irenicus says he no longer remembers their love, and he feels nothing. He is only "Irenicus," meaning "Shattered One," and all he desires is power and vengeance.
** In ''[[VideoGame/BaldursGateIIThroneOfBhaal Throne of Bhaal]]'', [[spoiler: [[BigBad Amelissan the Blackhearted]], The Annointed of Bhaal, [[BitchInSheepsClothing poses as a kind figure]], saving the children of the dead God from the brutal blood purges and giving them sanctuary in a city. However, behind the scenes, she is the one {{manipulati|ve bastard}}ng the purges, killing any with any connection to Bhaal, while simultaneously forming a clandestine group of powerful Bhaalspawn called The Five to plunge the world into war. Amelissan manipulates the heroes into eliminating the Five, but not before she allows their armies to invade the city, slaughtering everyone within, including the refugees who trusted her. Having gathered all of their Godly essence, Amelissan is willing to throw the cosmos into disarray to, instead of resurrecting her God, [[TheStarscream betray him and take his place as the new Lord Of Murder]].]]
5th May '16 8:26:21 PM Matt620
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* DeconstructorFleet: Not immediately obvious, but Baldur's Gate masterfully deconstructs typical character clichés: Imoen is a fairly realistic take on how a TagAlongKid would fare in such a fantasy world (she would get herself in ''huge'' danger and almost killed), Aerie deconstructs the image of the WhiteMagicianGirl, who doesn't get nearly as much help and compassion as she would in other stories, Anomen and Keldorn deconstruct the archetype of the KnightInShiningArmor by showing that life doesn't just consist of slaying Dragons and strictly following a BadassCreed and can occasionally be arrogant and judgmental, and Valygar, instead of getting accepted as the brooding, mysterious ByronicHero, gets MistakenForGay and has to deal with his DarkAndTroubledPast anyways. Jan, instead of being flat ComicRelief, turns out to be SmarterThanYouLook and only capable of having survived so long because of how smart he is, Viconia shows that neither of the two parts of the JerkassWoobie trope are more important than the other (and thus functionally deconstructs DracoInLeatherPants and RonTheDeathEater as a whole), Edwin proves that an eccentric and CowardlySidekick is ''not'' going to be successful in life, and Korgan, seemingly being an {{Expy}} of a HackAndSlash protagonist, demonstrates that there isn't a place for AxCrazy people in society, no matter how CrazyAwesome they are. Further, Cernd debunks the idea of a [[TheSmartGuy Smart Guy]] who speaks entirely in parables, with some people confused by his misplaced metaphors and some treating him like a moron, Nalia fares about as well as you might expect as a [[WeHelpTheHelpless Left-Wing Democrat]] in a country which has been an arch-feudalistic aristocracy throughout history, Yoshimo makes light of the dashing GentlemanThief role by demonstrating [[spoiler:you can't really rely on him in a pinch]] and being less sure on his feet than he likes to suggest, Eldoth deconstructs the LovableRogue trope by being a GoldDigger, a raging sexist and intolerably cruel towards his girlfriend, Skie demonstrates how a RebelliousPrincess without formal combat training would not fare well on the road and her lack of world experience leaves her open to exploitation and Garrick demonstrates that being [[NiceGuy well-meaning and a good person]] doesn't make the ladies want you, and as a dashing bard he's [[SpoonyBard more than a little lacking]]. About the only one who plays any classic tropes straight is Minsc, but then again, as Dynaheir says, "Minsc is... well, [[TooDumbToFool Minsc]]."

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* DeconstructorFleet: Not immediately obvious, but Baldur's Gate masterfully deconstructs typical character clichés: Imoen is a fairly realistic take on how a TagAlongKid would fare in such a fantasy world (she would get herself in ''huge'' danger and almost killed), Aerie deconstructs the image of the WhiteMagicianGirl, who doesn't get nearly as much help and compassion as she would in other stories, Anomen and Keldorn deconstruct the archetype of the KnightInShiningArmor by showing that life doesn't just consist of slaying Dragons and strictly following a BadassCreed and can occasionally be arrogant and judgmental, and Valygar, instead of getting accepted as the brooding, mysterious ByronicHero, gets MistakenForGay and has to deal with his DarkAndTroubledPast anyways. Jan, instead of being flat ComicRelief, turns out to be SmarterThanYouLook and only capable of having survived so long because of how smart he is, Viconia shows that neither of the two parts of the JerkassWoobie trope are more important than the other (and thus functionally deconstructs DracoInLeatherPants and RonTheDeathEater as a whole), Edwin proves that an eccentric and CowardlySidekick is ''not'' going to be successful in life, and Korgan, seemingly being an {{Expy}} of a HackAndSlash protagonist, demonstrates that there isn't a place for AxCrazy people in society, no matter how CrazyAwesome they are. Further, Cernd debunks the idea of a [[TheSmartGuy Smart Guy]] who speaks entirely in parables, with some people confused by his misplaced metaphors and some treating him like a moron, Nalia fares about as well as you might expect as a [[WeHelpTheHelpless Left-Wing Democrat]] in a country which has been an arch-feudalistic aristocracy throughout history, Yoshimo makes light of the dashing GentlemanThief role by demonstrating [[spoiler:you can't really rely on him in a pinch]] and being less sure on his feet than he likes to suggest, Eldoth deconstructs the LovableRogue trope by being a GoldDigger, a raging sexist and intolerably cruel towards his girlfriend, Skie demonstrates how a RebelliousPrincess without formal combat training would not fare well on the road and her lack of world experience leaves her open to exploitation and Garrick demonstrates that being [[NiceGuy well-meaning and a good person]] doesn't make the ladies want you, and as a dashing bard he's [[SpoonyBard more than a little lacking]]. Shar-Teel deconstructs the FeministFantasy type of character by showing her to be just as evil as what she rails against. About the only one who plays any classic tropes straight is Minsc, but then again, as Dynaheir says, "Minsc is... well, [[TooDumbToFool Minsc]]."



* EvenBetterSequel: For many, ''Baldur's Gate II'' is far and away one of the most uncontested examples of this trope, improving upon almost every conceivable facet of what was already considered great.

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* EvenBetterSequel: For many, ''Baldur's Gate II'' is far and away one of the most uncontested examples of this trope, improving upon almost every conceivable facet of what trope. The game was already considered great.not only smoother, but added features to make it easier to find things such as chests, centralized a lot of the character recruitment, and had a lot more interaction between characters.



** Dorn, overlapping with WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds. Sure, he's a blackguard and a mass murderer, but all his life he's been on the receiving end of anti-half-orc prejudice. Even in-game, good characters attempting to criticise or denounce him always address or describe him by his race rather than his class kit, as if being a half-orc is somehow more evil than being a ''[[BlackKnight blackguard]]''! Speaking of which, his initial motivation for becoming a blackguard in the first place was a betrayal by those he considered his friends, which leaves him constantly on guard and distrustful of everyone, and willing to call the player a fool if they're even a little less cynical than he is.
** Jaheira. She is occasionally rude and[=/=]or condescending towards other party members, but it's largely because of losing Khalid, her husband and soulmate, and perhaps lingering memories of losing her friend Gorion, and she always apologises after being exceptionally rude.

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** Dorn, overlapping with WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds. Sure, he's a blackguard and a mass murderer, but all his life he's been on the receiving end of anti-half-orc prejudice. Even in-game, good characters attempting to criticise criticize or denounce him always address or describe him by his race rather than his class kit, as if being a half-orc is somehow more evil than being a ''[[BlackKnight blackguard]]''! Speaking of which, his initial motivation for becoming a blackguard in the first place was a betrayal by those he considered his friends, which leaves him constantly on guard and distrustful of everyone, and willing to call the player a fool if they're even a little less cynical than he is.
** Jaheira. She is occasionally rude and[=/=]or condescending towards other party members, but it's largely because of losing Khalid, her husband and soulmate, and perhaps lingering memories of losing her friend Gorion, and she always apologises apologizes after being exceptionally rude.


Added DiffLines:

** Nalia's dialogue was changed in ''[=ToB=], making her much more bearable.
18th Apr '16 5:52:39 AM Nohbody
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** [[TricksterMentor Elminster]]. Many people feel that he is too powerful in his role in the first game (he is NighInvulnerable) and your Journal entry will glorify him regardless of your attitude. It also doesn't help that his role in the series essentially boils down to [[StopHelpingMe giving you tidbits of information that you just risked life and limb to scratch from the remotest corners of the Sword Coast, while barely making any efforts to lift a finger himself]].

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** [[TricksterMentor Elminster]]. Many people feel that he is too powerful in his role in the first game (he is NighInvulnerable) and your Journal entry will glorify him regardless of your attitude. It also doesn't help that his role in the series essentially boils down to [[StopHelpingMe [[AnnoyingVideoGameHelper giving you tidbits of information that you just risked life and limb to scratch from the remotest corners of the Sword Coast, while barely making any efforts to lift a finger himself]].
16th Apr '16 3:27:05 AM supergod
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* BizarroEpisode: Despite having several interesting plot threads, the additional content from the ''Tales of the Sword Coast'' expansion to the first game ultimately has no impact on the overall plot, making it more of a MissionPackSequel.
** The (completely optional) Sahuagin civil war arc in the second game, which takes place after the WhamEpisode in Spellhold and bridges the gap to the Underdark. Completely irrelevant to the plot, but a good opportunity to get some decent gear. And it's nice to run into a halfway-functional evil society for a change.
16th Apr '16 3:12:38 AM MinisterOfSinister
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** The (completely optional) Sahuagin civil war arc in the second game, which takes place after the WhamEpisode in Spellhold and bridges the gap to the Underdark. Completely irrelevant to the plot, but a good opportunity to get some decent gear. And it's nice to run into a halfway-functional evil society for a change.x

to:

** The (completely optional) Sahuagin civil war arc in the second game, which takes place after the WhamEpisode in Spellhold and bridges the gap to the Underdark. Completely irrelevant to the plot, but a good opportunity to get some decent gear. And it's nice to run into a halfway-functional evil society for a change.x
15th Apr '16 8:09:48 PM SpectralTime
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** The (completely optional) Sahuagin civil war arc in the second game, which takes place after the WhamEpisode in Spellhold and bridges the gap to the Underdark. Completely irrelevant to the plot, but a good opportunity to get some decent gear.

to:

** The (completely optional) Sahuagin civil war arc in the second game, which takes place after the WhamEpisode in Spellhold and bridges the gap to the Underdark. Completely irrelevant to the plot, but a good opportunity to get some decent gear. And it's nice to run into a halfway-functional evil society for a change.x
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