History WhatMeasureIsANonHuman / Meta

25th Dec '14 9:41:05 AM nombretomado
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* {{Catgirl}}s and other CuteMonsterGirl {{Half Human Hybrid}}s. Sometimes treated the same as humans, sometimes treated differently, sometimes they ''are'' a form of normal humans (such as {{Loveless}}), and so on.

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* {{Catgirl}}s and other CuteMonsterGirl {{Half Human Hybrid}}s. Sometimes treated the same as humans, sometimes treated differently, sometimes they ''are'' a form of normal humans (such as {{Loveless}}), ''{{Manga/Loveless}}''), and so on.
15th Nov '14 1:16:39 PM chopshop
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* ''Film/{{Avatar}}'' itself averts this, but provides a meta example (or TruthInTelevision). The human antagonists in the movie are depicted as considerably lesser bastards to aliens than their counterparts in ''Film/{{District 9}}''. They regard the Na'vi as primitive and hostile people, but people nevertheless: they at least try (if halfassedly) to resolve the conflict with diplomacy and trade and even when they resort to violence there are still some token efforts to reduce Na'vi casualties.
* MakeMyMonsterGrow and OneWingedAngel are often invoked to get around this in children's shows. In addition, said creatures may be fairly articulate before the change but lose all vocal coherence after.



** [[http://www.rfreitas.com/Astro/LegalRightsOfETs.htm This article]] discusses and explains in detail how governments are preparing in case of contact with sentient aliens and whether they would be treated as legal citizens. It seems that in the current state of such laws, there's a metric assload of bureaucratic snafus and loopholes that would have to be dealt with for aliens to have any real rights while on Earth. It's most likely that if we actually did meet aliens there would be some hasty reworking of laws and a new legal classification created so as to avoid FirstContact becoming a political shitstorm.

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** [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_of_artificial_intelligence The ethics and rights of robots]] have been debated about for ''ages''. Currently the argument seems to be less whether robots should have rights and more ''which'' rights robots should have and when.
** [[http://www.rfreitas.com/Astro/LegalRightsOfETs.htm This article]] discusses and explains in detail how governments are preparing in case of contact with sentient aliens and whether they would be treated as legal citizens. It seems that in the current state of such laws, there's a metric assload of bureaucratic snafus and loopholes that would have to be dealt with for aliens to have any real rights while on Earth. It's most likely that if we actually did meet aliens aliens, there would be some hasty reworking of laws and a new legal classification created so as to avoid FirstContact becoming a political shitstorm.
14th Nov '14 8:55:31 PM chopshop
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* ''Film/{{Avatar}}'' itself averts this, but provides a meta example (or TruthInTelevision). The human antagonists in the movie are depicted as considerably lesser bastards to aliens than their counterparts in ''Film/{{District 9}}''. They regard the Na'vi as primitive and hostile people, but people nevertheless: they at least try (if halfassedly) to resolve the conflict with diplomacy and trade and even when they resort to violence there are still some token efforts to reduce Na'vi casualties. On the other hand, the prevalence of "should've napalmed/nuked/asteroided them" attitude in reviews and on forums, assessments of Jack/Ney'tiri relations with heavy zoophiliac overtones and notes like "It's like trying to negotiate with cockroaches" suggest a view of the Na'vi as subhumans who should be exterminated.
* MakeMyMonsterGrow and OneWingedAngel are often invoked to get around this in children's shows. In addition, said creatures may be fairly articulate before the change but lose all vocal coherence after.

to:

* ''Film/{{Avatar}}'' itself averts this, but provides a meta example (or TruthInTelevision). The human antagonists in the movie are depicted as considerably lesser bastards to aliens than their counterparts in ''Film/{{District 9}}''. They regard the Na'vi as primitive and hostile people, but people nevertheless: they at least try (if halfassedly) to resolve the conflict with diplomacy and trade and even when they resort to violence there are still some token efforts to reduce Na'vi casualties. On the other hand, the prevalence of "should've napalmed/nuked/asteroided them" attitude in reviews and on forums, assessments of Jack/Ney'tiri relations with heavy zoophiliac overtones and notes like "It's like trying to negotiate with cockroaches" suggest a view of the Na'vi as subhumans who should be exterminated.\n
* MakeMyMonsterGrow and OneWingedAngel are often invoked to get around this in children's shows. In addition, said creatures may be fairly articulate before the change but lose all vocal coherence after.after.
* This is a serious concern that scientists and politicians have been mulling over in RealLife for decades now:
** There's a specially designed test called "[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test the Turing Test]]", which is meant to find if an artificial intelligence is genuinely sentient. So far no robots or computers have been able to pass it, and it's usefulness is a major point of contention for scientists (not helped by the fact that some ''humans'' somehow manage to fail the test). However quite a few are sure that, eventually, there ''will'' be a machine that will pass the test.
** [[http://www.rfreitas.com/Astro/LegalRightsOfETs.htm This article]] discusses and explains in detail how governments are preparing in case of contact with sentient aliens and whether they would be treated as legal citizens. It seems that in the current state of such laws, there's a metric assload of bureaucratic snafus and loopholes that would have to be dealt with for aliens to have any real rights while on Earth. It's most likely that if we actually did meet aliens there would be some hasty reworking of laws and a new legal classification created so as to avoid FirstContact becoming a political shitstorm.
** For some inexplicable reason, updated rules mean that [[http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/09/copyright-law-supernatural-beings-monkey-selfie supernatural creatures cannot hold legal copyrights in the US]], regardless of their level of sentience. If Dracula were real, he'd be screwed out of royalties to his own name.
17th Sep '14 7:47:26 PM Bonerfart
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* ''Film/{{Avatar}}'' partly averts this but also provides a meta example (or TruthInTelevision). As for humans in the movie, they are depicted as considerably lesser bastards to aliens than they were in ''Film/{{District 9}}'' and regard them more like primitive and hostile people, but people nevertheless: they at least try to resolve the conflict with diplomacy and trade and even when they resort to violence they still care to keep the casualties among aliens low. On the other hand, the prevalence of "should've dropped nuke/rock/napalm on them" attitude in the reviews and on forums, depictions of Jack/Ney'tiri relations with heavy zoophiliac overtones and notes like "It's like trying to negotiate with cockroaches" suggest a view of the Na'vi as sub-human. Of course, this could simply be a desire for a TakeThatScrappy moment after what they see as a movie's worth of CreatorsPet + CantArgueWithElves.

to:

* ''Film/{{Avatar}}'' partly itself averts this this, but also provides a meta example (or TruthInTelevision). As for humans The human antagonists in the movie, they movie are depicted as considerably lesser bastards to aliens than they were their counterparts in ''Film/{{District 9}}'' and 9}}''. They regard them more like the Na'vi as primitive and hostile people, but people nevertheless: they at least try (if halfassedly) to resolve the conflict with diplomacy and trade and even when they resort to violence they there are still care some token efforts to keep the casualties among aliens low. reduce Na'vi casualties. On the other hand, the prevalence of "should've dropped nuke/rock/napalm on napalmed/nuked/asteroided them" attitude in the reviews and on forums, depictions assessments of Jack/Ney'tiri relations with heavy zoophiliac overtones and notes like "It's like trying to negotiate with cockroaches" suggest a view of the Na'vi as sub-human. Of course, this could simply subhumans who should be a desire for a TakeThatScrappy moment after what they see as a movie's worth of CreatorsPet + CantArgueWithElves.exterminated.
18th Oct '12 2:56:03 PM Aiguille
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* ''{{Avatar}}'' partly averts this but also provides a meta example (or TruthInTelevision). As for humans in the movie, they are depicted as considerably lesser bastards to aliens than they were in ''Film/{{District 9}}'' and regard them more like primitive and hostile people, but people nevertheless: they at least try to resolve the conflict with diplomacy and trade and even when they resort to violence they still care to keep the casualties among aliens low. On the other hand, the prevalence of "should've dropped nuke/rock/napalm on them" attitude in the reviews and on forums, depictions of Jack/Ney'tiri relations with heavy zoophiliac overtones and notes like "It's like trying to negotiate with cockroaches" suggest a view of the Na'vi as sub-human. Of course, this could simply be a desire for a TakeThatScrappy moment after what they see as a movie's worth of CreatorsPet + CantArgueWithElves.

to:

* ''{{Avatar}}'' ''Film/{{Avatar}}'' partly averts this but also provides a meta example (or TruthInTelevision). As for humans in the movie, they are depicted as considerably lesser bastards to aliens than they were in ''Film/{{District 9}}'' and regard them more like primitive and hostile people, but people nevertheless: they at least try to resolve the conflict with diplomacy and trade and even when they resort to violence they still care to keep the casualties among aliens low. On the other hand, the prevalence of "should've dropped nuke/rock/napalm on them" attitude in the reviews and on forums, depictions of Jack/Ney'tiri relations with heavy zoophiliac overtones and notes like "It's like trying to negotiate with cockroaches" suggest a view of the Na'vi as sub-human. Of course, this could simply be a desire for a TakeThatScrappy moment after what they see as a movie's worth of CreatorsPet + CantArgueWithElves.
23rd May '12 9:21:28 PM Robotnik
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* ''{{Avatar}}'' partly averts this but also provides a particularly sickening meta example (or TruthInTelevision). As for humans in the movie, they are depicted as considerably lesser bastards to aliens than they were in ''Film/{{District 9}}'' and regard them more like primitive and hostile people, but people nevertheless: they at least try to resolve the conflict with diplomacy and trade and even when they resort to violence they still care to keep the casualties among aliens low. ON THE OTHER HAND, the prevalence of "should've dropped nuke/rock/napalm on them" attitude in the reviews and on forums, abhorrently cynical depictions of Jack/Ney'tiri relations with heavy zoophiliac overtones and notes like "It's like trying to negotiate with cockroaches" suggest a view of the Na'vi as sub-human. Of course, some of this could simply be a desire for a TakeThatScrappy moment after what they see as a movie's worth of CreatorsPet + CantArgueWithElves.

to:

* ''{{Avatar}}'' partly averts this but also provides a particularly sickening meta example (or TruthInTelevision). As for humans in the movie, they are depicted as considerably lesser bastards to aliens than they were in ''Film/{{District 9}}'' and regard them more like primitive and hostile people, but people nevertheless: they at least try to resolve the conflict with diplomacy and trade and even when they resort to violence they still care to keep the casualties among aliens low. ON THE OTHER HAND, On the other hand, the prevalence of "should've dropped nuke/rock/napalm on them" attitude in the reviews and on forums, abhorrently cynical depictions of Jack/Ney'tiri relations with heavy zoophiliac overtones and notes like "It's like trying to negotiate with cockroaches" suggest a view of the Na'vi as sub-human. Of course, some of this could simply be a desire for a TakeThatScrappy moment after what they see as a movie's worth of CreatorsPet + CantArgueWithElves.
7th Feb '12 6:02:28 PM nombretomado
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* ''{{Avatar}}'' partly averts this but also provides a particularly sickening meta example (or TruthInTelevision). As for humans in the movie, they are depicted as considerably lesser bastards to aliens than they were in ''DistrictNine'' and regard them more like primitive and hostile people, but people nevertheless: they at least try to resolve the conflict with diplomacy and trade and even when they resort to violence they still care to keep the casualties among aliens low. ON THE OTHER HAND, the prevalence of "should've dropped nuke/rock/napalm on them" attitude in the reviews and on forums, abhorrently cynical depictions of Jack/Ney'tiri relations with heavy zoophiliac overtones and notes like "It's like trying to negotiate with cockroaches" suggest a view of the Na'vi as sub-human. Of course, some of this could simply be a desire for a TakeThatScrappy moment after what they see as a movie's worth of CreatorsPet + CantArgueWithElves.

to:

* ''{{Avatar}}'' partly averts this but also provides a particularly sickening meta example (or TruthInTelevision). As for humans in the movie, they are depicted as considerably lesser bastards to aliens than they were in ''DistrictNine'' ''Film/{{District 9}}'' and regard them more like primitive and hostile people, but people nevertheless: they at least try to resolve the conflict with diplomacy and trade and even when they resort to violence they still care to keep the casualties among aliens low. ON THE OTHER HAND, the prevalence of "should've dropped nuke/rock/napalm on them" attitude in the reviews and on forums, abhorrently cynical depictions of Jack/Ney'tiri relations with heavy zoophiliac overtones and notes like "It's like trying to negotiate with cockroaches" suggest a view of the Na'vi as sub-human. Of course, some of this could simply be a desire for a TakeThatScrappy moment after what they see as a movie's worth of CreatorsPet + CantArgueWithElves.
28th Nov '11 12:34:54 PM Firebert
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* ''{{Avatar}}'' partly averts this but also provides a particularly sickening meta example (or TruthInTelevision). As for humans in the movie, they are depicted as considerably lesser bastards to aliens than they were in ''DistrictNine'' and regard them more like primitive and hostile people, but people nevertheless: they at least try to resolve the conflict with diplomacy and trade and even when they resort to violence they still care to keep the casualties among aliens low. ON THE OTHER HAND, the prevalence of "should've dropped nuke/rock/napalm on them" attitude in the reviews and on forums, abhorrently cynical depictions of Jack/Ney'tiri relations with heavy zoophiliac overtones and notes like "It's like trying to negotiate with cockroaches" suggest a view of the Na'vi as sub-human. Of course, some of this could simply be a desire for a [[TakeThatScrappy Shut Up Wesley]] moment after what they see as a movie's worth of ShillingTheWesley + CantArgueWithElves.

to:

* ''{{Avatar}}'' partly averts this but also provides a particularly sickening meta example (or TruthInTelevision). As for humans in the movie, they are depicted as considerably lesser bastards to aliens than they were in ''DistrictNine'' and regard them more like primitive and hostile people, but people nevertheless: they at least try to resolve the conflict with diplomacy and trade and even when they resort to violence they still care to keep the casualties among aliens low. ON THE OTHER HAND, the prevalence of "should've dropped nuke/rock/napalm on them" attitude in the reviews and on forums, abhorrently cynical depictions of Jack/Ney'tiri relations with heavy zoophiliac overtones and notes like "It's like trying to negotiate with cockroaches" suggest a view of the Na'vi as sub-human. Of course, some of this could simply be a desire for a [[TakeThatScrappy Shut Up Wesley]] TakeThatScrappy moment after what they see as a movie's worth of ShillingTheWesley CreatorsPet + CantArgueWithElves.
2nd Apr '11 2:53:10 AM Korval
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* ''{{Avatar}}'' partly averts this but also provides a particularly sickening meta example (or TruthInTelevision). As for humans in the movie, they are depicted as considerably lesser bastards to aliens than they were in ''DistrictNine'' and regard them more like primitive and hostile people, but people nevertheless: they at least try to resolve the conflict with diplomacy and trade and even when they resort to violence they still care to keep the casualties among aliens low. ON THE OTHER HAND, the prevalence of "should've dropped nuke/rock/napalm on them" attitude in the reviews and on forums, abhorrently cynical depictions of Jack/Ney'tiri relations with heavy zoophiliac overtones and notes like "It's like trying to negotiate with cockroaches" make me ashamed of my kind. Seriously, what the hell?
** This begs the question of how much this trope is behind the "shoulda nuked 'em" and how much is just a desire for a [[TakeThatScrappy Shut Up Wesley]] moment after a movie's worth of ShillingTheWesley + CantArgueWithElves.
** Speaking as one of the anti Na'vi forum goers, most (the keyward being most) say to nuke em because they're arrogant racists who in their first appearance on screen KILLED a human diplomat UNPROVOKED, followed by an hour or so of general prickishness. This isn't about them being not human, this is about them being needing to be told to go screw themselves
*** Which totally and completely justifies the nuclear annihilation of an entire race of course.
** While annoyingly absent in the final screenplay, originally the Na'vi were far less xenophobic until a few inebriated security personnel started a fight resulting in casualties on the Na'vi side. This also was the original reason for the avatars being expelled from Na'vi society.
*** About that they, in the (cut) final verson it was ''the NA'VI'' that started that fight, they killed a guard for Grace's school, the solders pissed off show up to close it down, a fight breaks out and a few na'vi kids get killed in the cross fire.
** Yes, it is about being non-human. People justify genocide (which it would be) because the Na'vi aren't human, since we wouldn't do that to a human culture for acting the same way. And a lot of people would do the same thing if someone came to our planet.
*** ''"...since we wouldn't do that to a human culture for acting the same way"'' I think you underestimate the Total Bastard Levels of people. Been a while since I saw the film, but isn't it true that the people of Earth were dying without the {{Unobtanium}} and that was why the soldiers were willing to go to the lengths they did to take it from the Na'vi?

to:

* ''{{Avatar}}'' partly averts this but also provides a particularly sickening meta example (or TruthInTelevision). As for humans in the movie, they are depicted as considerably lesser bastards to aliens than they were in ''DistrictNine'' and regard them more like primitive and hostile people, but people nevertheless: they at least try to resolve the conflict with diplomacy and trade and even when they resort to violence they still care to keep the casualties among aliens low. ON THE OTHER HAND, the prevalence of "should've dropped nuke/rock/napalm on them" attitude in the reviews and on forums, abhorrently cynical depictions of Jack/Ney'tiri relations with heavy zoophiliac overtones and notes like "It's like trying to negotiate with cockroaches" make me ashamed suggest a view of my kind. Seriously, what the hell?
** This begs the question
Na'vi as sub-human. Of course, some of how much this trope is behind the "shoulda nuked 'em" and how much is just could simply be a desire for a [[TakeThatScrappy Shut Up Wesley]] moment after what they see as a movie's worth of ShillingTheWesley + CantArgueWithElves.
** Speaking as one of the anti Na'vi forum goers, most (the keyward being most) say to nuke em because they're arrogant racists who in their first appearance on screen KILLED a human diplomat UNPROVOKED, followed by an hour or so of general prickishness. This isn't about them being not human, this is about them being needing to be told to go screw themselves
*** Which totally and completely justifies the nuclear annihilation of an entire race of course.
** While annoyingly absent in the final screenplay, originally the Na'vi were far less xenophobic until a few inebriated security personnel started a fight resulting in casualties on the Na'vi side. This also was the original reason for the avatars being expelled from Na'vi society.
*** About that they, in the (cut) final verson it was ''the NA'VI'' that started that fight, they killed a guard for Grace's school, the solders pissed off show up to close it down, a fight breaks out and a few na'vi kids get killed in the cross fire.
** Yes, it is about being non-human. People justify genocide (which it would be) because the Na'vi aren't human, since we wouldn't do that to a human culture for acting the same way. And a lot of people would do the same thing if someone came to our planet.
*** ''"...since we wouldn't do that to a human culture for acting the same way"'' I think you underestimate the Total Bastard Levels of people. Been a while since I saw the film, but isn't it true that the people of Earth were dying without the {{Unobtanium}} and that was why the soldiers were willing to go to the lengths they did to take it from the Na'vi?
CantArgueWithElves.
29th Dec '10 11:50:54 PM Malchus
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Added DiffLines:

*** Which totally and completely justifies the nuclear annihilation of an entire race of course.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=WhatMeasureIsANonHuman.Meta