History WhatMeasureIsANonHuman / LiveActionTV

17th Feb '18 1:38:35 PM SeptimusHeap
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* ''Series/{{Extant}}'': John objects to one of the board member's questions as to whether he has a plan of how to destroy Humanichs in the event they revolted by saying [[RobotBoy Ethan]] is his son, and questioning whether she has a plan to kill her daughter. The woman counters by saying that her daughter has a soul, to which John says there's no appreciable difference between humans' and Humanichs' brains. It soon degenerates into insults.

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* ''Series/{{Extant}}'': John objects to one of the board member's questions as to whether he has a plan of how to destroy Humanichs in the event they revolted by saying [[RobotBoy [[WesternAnimation/RobotBoy Ethan]] is his son, and questioning whether she has a plan to kill her daughter. The woman counters by saying that her daughter has a soul, to which John says there's no appreciable difference between humans' and Humanichs' brains. It soon degenerates into insults.
30th Jan '18 4:42:16 PM MarcusSLazarus
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*** Partly justified as various stories in both the official show and spin-off media have confirmed that black holes make it tricky to steer the TARDIS properly.
5th Jan '18 12:06:09 AM Linda58
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** Three very telling examples: Camille of ''Jungle Fury'' survives and turns good despite not being human (She has a human form, but traits like her prehensile tongue suggest that this is not her ''true'' form). On the other hand, Zeltrax of ''Dino Thunder'', who does not have a face, is [[strike:killed]] destroyed, despite the fact that we are told not only that he is a human wearing cybernetic prostheses after a lab accident, we are even told his ''human name'' (It's Terrence Smith, aka Smitty). Likewise, Frax (formerly Louis Fericks) of ''Time Force'' is turned evil and ultimately dies, despite the fact that he also was once human before being forced into a robotic body.

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** Three very telling examples: Camille of ''Jungle Fury'' survives and turns good despite not being human (She has a human form, but traits like her prehensile tongue suggest that this is not her ''true'' form). On the other hand, Zeltrax of ''Dino Thunder'', who does not have a face, is [[strike:killed]] destroyed, despite the fact that we are told not only that he is a human wearing cybernetic prostheses after a lab accident, we are even told his ''human name'' (It's Terrence Smith, aka Smitty). However, he got a ThatManIsDead[=/=]RedemptionRejection moment, giving his destruction some justification. Likewise, Frax (formerly Louis Fericks) of ''Time Force'' is turned evil and ultimately dies, despite the fact that he also was once human before being forced into a robotic body. On the other hand his personality is erased by Ransik first, so arguably Ransik killed him and the Rangers destroyed a machine.
** ''Time Force'' also features another case. The various monsters were never destroyed, but instead frozen and shrunk (into what looked like action figures). The idea of killing them is really never brought up, even though these cases would presumably qualify as self defense. Apparently despite being "mutants", they have certain rights. Conversely the purely robotic {{Mooks}} were consistently destroyed outright.
4th Jan '18 11:54:38 PM Linda58
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** There's a great conversation about this in "Be All My Sins Remember'd" when [=McKay=] and Zelenka create a human-form Replicator strictly for the purpose of using her to destroy the rest of the Replicators. Carter argues against destroying a self-aware being, but [=McKay=] argues strongly that she doesn't count as a life form. He later shows some discomfort, though, when FRAN displays excitement about being sent to her "death." Even the non-human doesn't think her life matters!

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** There's a great conversation about this in "Be All My Sins Remember'd" when [=McKay=] and Zelenka create a human-form Replicator strictly for the purpose of using her to destroy the rest of the Replicators. Carter argues against destroying a self-aware being, but [=McKay=] argues strongly that she doesn't count as a life form. He later shows some discomfort, though, when FRAN displays excitement about being sent to her "death." Even the non-human doesn't think her life matters!matters! As far as she's concerned, she's fulling the purpose of her existence.
2nd Dec '17 12:16:00 PM Nintendoman01
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** When Willow goes dark and on a RoaringRampageOfRevenge against Warren after he shoots Buffy and Tara, killing the latter, Buffy is literally the ''only'' one of the Scoobies who wants Warren to face human justice for his crimes, while Xander and Dawn are so disgusted and pissed that they openly support Willow's intent to kill; after she succeeds, even Buffy reluctantly admits that Warren ''may'' have deserved to die. Nonetheless, the Scoobies all rally to defend Warren's ex-cohorts, who Willow is [[MisplacedRetribution now targeting]], because they had done nothing to deserve death.

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** When Willow goes dark and on a RoaringRampageOfRevenge against Warren after he shoots To the end, Buffy and Tara, killing the latter, Buffy is literally the ''only'' one of the Scoobies who wants Warren flat-out refuses to face take human justice for his crimes, while Xander law into her own hands and Dawn just kill Warren, preferring to simply turn him over to the police. The other Scoobies, however, are so disgusted and pissed with him that they openly support Willow's intent to kill; after she succeeds, even Buffy reluctantly admits that Warren ''may'' have deserved to die. Nonetheless, the Scoobies all rally behind Willow en masse when she goes out to defend kill him and avenge Tara's death. The only issue anyone really has afterwards is how [[FlayingAlive gruesome Warren's ex-cohorts, who death was]], and the fact that Willow is [[MisplacedRetribution now targeting]], because they had done nothing refuses to deserve death.settle for just killing]] ''[[MisplacedRetribution him]]''.
24th Nov '17 1:08:15 PM tafelshrew
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** The Doctor also had a long running argument with the Brigadier about "the military mind's" tendency to solve everything with "five rounds rapid". Averted with [[Recap/DoctorWhoS7E2DoctorWhoAndTheSilurians "Doctor Who and the Silurians"]]; the Doctor is upset at the Brigadier destroying the Silurian base.

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** The Doctor also had a long running argument with the Brigadier about "the military mind's" tendency to solve everything with "five rounds rapid". Averted with [[Recap/DoctorWhoS7E2DoctorWhoAndTheSilurians "Doctor Who and the Silurians"]]; the Doctor is upset at the Brigadier destroying the Silurian base. He does, however, keep working with the Brigadier and gradually become friends with him; the mass murder of the Silurians (which as far as they knew at the time constituted genocide) gets brushed under the carpet.
7th Nov '17 11:43:53 PM skzip887
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*** [[Recap/DoctorWhoS36E9EmpressOfMars "Empress of Mars"]] explains the discrepency by having them [[spoiler: leave the remenants of their runied empire on Mars and begin a new, diplomatic, coexistence with other species.]]
21st Aug '17 10:42:41 PM PhantomRider
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** In an earlier episode, Ecliptor (one of the monsters vaporized in this attack) explains that he (and presumably other monstrous-looking villains) are evil because they were built to be.

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** In an earlier episode, Ecliptor (one of the monsters vaporized in this attack) explains that he (and presumably other monstrous-looking villains) are evil because they were built to be. Of course, he was the most noble NobleDemon ever and truly loved his surrogate daughter Astronema.



** Three very telling examples: Camille of ''Jungle Fury'' survives and turns good despite not being human (She has a human form, but traits like her prehensile tongue suggest that this is not her ''true'' form). On the other hand, Zeltrax of ''Dino Thunder'', who does not have a face, is [[strike:killed]] destroyed, despite the fact that we are told not only that he is a human wearing cybernetic prostheses after a lab accident, we are even told his ''human name'' (It's Terrence Smith, aka Smitty). Likewise, Frax of ''Time Force'' is turned evil and ultimately dies, despite the fact that he also was once human before being forced into a robotic body.
** Also, the series compromised this policy when Trakeena was finally defeated in ''Series/PowerRangersLightspeedRescue''. Sure, she ''looked'' like any other MonsterOfTheWeek when she was killed, but she had previously been the same type of [[HumanAliens Human Alien]] that folks like Divatox had been.
** Master Org spends most of the series looking like a human in eeevil makeup, but has a monster form when he's taken out (however, there's a moment of his human form being seen just before he's ''gooified'' once and for all.) Moltor and Flurious were near-human[[note]]Their current monstrous forms were explicity caused by the series' main MacGuffin when they first touched it long ago. We never got a ''good'' look at their pre-monster forms' features, but they were wearing modified, reused ''Ninja Storm'' student outfits, which means to not have shown, the level of alienness couldn't be higher than ''Franchise/StarTrek'' class. The backstory takes place too long ago for Earth humans to exist, but Moltor doesn't protest when Mack says "You were human once" and accuses him of throwing away his humanity for power. That's all {{Canon}} gives us.[[/note]] In the last two episodes, Moltor dies for real, and Flurious, though he does fight as a OneWingedAngel, is finally destroyed in his human-with-makeup-faced standard form by Mack, who was ''determined to finish him off even though he'd already been defeated." Mind you, Mack had... issues... at this point.

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** Three very telling examples: Camille of ''Jungle Fury'' survives and turns good despite not being human (She has a human form, but traits like her prehensile tongue suggest that this is not her ''true'' form). On the other hand, Zeltrax of ''Dino Thunder'', who does not have a face, is [[strike:killed]] destroyed, despite the fact that we are told not only that he is a human wearing cybernetic prostheses after a lab accident, we are even told his ''human name'' (It's Terrence Smith, aka Smitty). Likewise, Frax (formerly Louis Fericks) of ''Time Force'' is turned evil and ultimately dies, despite the fact that he also was once human before being forced into a robotic body.
** Also, Before that, the series compromised this policy when Trakeena was finally defeated in ''Series/PowerRangersLightspeedRescue''. Sure, she ''looked'' like any other MonsterOfTheWeek when she was killed, but she had previously been the same type of [[HumanAliens Human Alien]] that folks like Divatox had been.
** Master Org spends most of the series looking like a human in eeevil makeup, but has a monster form when he's taken out (however, when taking the final blow there's a moment of his human form being seen just before he's ''gooified'' once and for all.all! Cole even visits his grave at the end of the series.) Moltor and Flurious were near-human[[note]]Their near-human[[note]]How human, we can't know for sure. Their current monstrous forms were explicity caused by the series' main MacGuffin when they first touched it long ago. We ago, but we never got a ''good'' look at their pre-monster forms' features, but as they were wearing modified, reused ''Ninja Storm'' student outfits, which means to not have shown, the level of outfits. As such, we can't know they looked 100% human, but any alienness couldn't be higher than ''Franchise/StarTrek'' class.RubberForeheadAlien level would surely have shown. The backstory takes place too long ago for Earth humans to exist, but Moltor doesn't protest when Mack says "You were human once" and accuses him of throwing away his humanity for power. That's all {{Canon}} gives us.[[/note]] In the last two episodes, Moltor dies for real, and Flurious, though he does fight as a OneWingedAngel, is finally destroyed in his human-with-makeup-faced standard form by Mack, who was ''determined to finish him off even though he'd already been totally defeated." '' Mind you, Mack had... issues... at this point.



** ''Series/KamenRiderFaiz'' is pretty much based entirely around exploring this trope. With Orphenoch protagonists getting as much screentime as the Riders, and the second Rider's hatred of them regardless of alignment being only one of his many {{Jerkass}} qualities. It helps that the "monsters" are formerly human, and generally forced or bribed into evil.

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** ''Series/KamenRiderFaiz'' is pretty much based entirely around exploring this trope. With trope, with Orphenoch protagonists getting as much screentime as the Riders, and the second Rider's hatred of them regardless of alignment being only one of his many {{Jerkass}} qualities. It helps that the "monsters" are formerly human, and generally forced or bribed into evil. In the end, some humans and some Orphenochs survive.



*** [[spoiler: Emotions play big role in this. Eiji and Hina spent most of the story around Ankh and came to like him, so it's obvious they would be upset over the thought of him dying. Being a Greed doesn't have anything to do with it.]]

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*** [[spoiler: Emotions play big role in this. Eiji and Hina spent most of the story around Ankh and came to like him, so it's obvious they would be upset over the thought of him dying. Being a Greed doesn't have anything to do with it. The team also didn't hesitate to end Dr. Maki in order to save the world, though as usual it was after he'd taken a monster form.]]



** ''Series/KamenRiderDrive'' plays with this in a very complicated fashion that lingers heavily on the point of view and AlternativeCharacterInterpretation. [[RidiculouslyHumanRobots Roimundes]] are shown to be sentient and as capable of emotion as humans. The problem is that they are, by programming and other causes, very rarely anything else than AlwaysChaoticEvil. [[TheHero Shinnosuke]] usually doesn't have any issue with fighting them because they cause suffering and chaos, but doesn't have problem with accepting the ones, who do not. On the other hand, the second rider, [[RedOniBlueOni Gou]] holds the adamant resolution that all Roimundes are evil and throws a nasty fit when proved otherwise. From the point of Roimundes, they are as worthy as humans and what the riders do is a slaughter.

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** ''Series/KamenRiderDrive'' plays with this in a very complicated fashion that lingers heavily on the point of view and AlternativeCharacterInterpretation. [[RidiculouslyHumanRobots Roimundes]] Roidmudes]] are shown to be sentient and as capable of emotion as humans. The problem is that they are, by programming and other causes, very rarely anything else than AlwaysChaoticEvil. [[TheHero Shinnosuke]] usually doesn't have any issue with fighting them because they cause suffering and chaos, but doesn't have problem with accepting the ones, ones who do not. On the other hand, the second rider, [[RedOniBlueOni Gou]] holds the adamant resolution that all Roimundes are evil and throws a nasty fit when proved otherwise. From the point of Roimundes, they are as worthy as humans and what the riders do is a slaughter. They view ''humans'' as lesser, though. As such, you'll have a Roidmude general filled with righteous fury over the Rider as a murderer, but shrug off "yeah, and what about all the humans you lot have killed?" with "they were just humans."
4th Jun '17 1:56:19 AM Flame
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** ''Series/KamenRiderFaiz'' is pretty much based entirely around exploring this trope. With Orphenoch protagonists getting as much screentime as the Riders, and the second Rider's hatred of them regardless of alignment being only one of his many {{Jerkass}} qualities. It helps that the "monsters" are formerly human, and generally forced or bribed into evil.



*** [[spoiler: Emotions play big role in this. Eiji and Hina spent most of the story around Ankh and came to like him, so it's obvious they would be upset over the thought of him dying. Being a Greed doesn't have anything to do with it.]]



** ''Series/KamenRiderFaiz'' is pretty much based entirely around exploring this trope. With Orphenoch protagonists getting as much screentime as the Riders, and the second Rider's hatred of them regardless of alignment being only one of his many {{Jerkass}} qualities. It helps that the "monsters" are formerly human, and generally forced or bribed into evil.
** ''Series/KamenRiderDrive'' plays with this in a very complicated fashion that lingers heavily on the point of view and AlternativeCharacterInterpretation.[[RidiculouslyHumanRobots Roimundes]] are shown to be sentient and as capable of emotion as humans. The problem is that they are, by programming and other causes, very rarely anything else than AlwaysChaoticEvil. [[TheHero Shinnosuke]] usually doesn't have any issue with fighting them because they cause suffering and chaos, but doesn't have problem with accepting the ones, who do not. On the other hand, the second rider,[[RedOniBlueOni Gou]] holds the adamant resolution that all Roimundes are evil and throws a nasty fit when proved otherwise. From the point of Roimundes, they are as worthy as humans and what the riders do is a slaughter.

to:

** ''Series/KamenRiderFaiz'' is pretty much based entirely around exploring this trope. With Orphenoch protagonists getting as much screentime as the Riders, and the second Rider's hatred of them regardless of alignment being only one of his many {{Jerkass}} qualities. It helps that the "monsters" are formerly human, and generally forced or bribed into evil.
** ''Series/KamenRiderDrive'' plays with this in a very complicated fashion that lingers heavily on the point of view and AlternativeCharacterInterpretation. [[RidiculouslyHumanRobots Roimundes]] are shown to be sentient and as capable of emotion as humans. The problem is that they are, by programming and other causes, very rarely anything else than AlwaysChaoticEvil. [[TheHero Shinnosuke]] usually doesn't have any issue with fighting them because they cause suffering and chaos, but doesn't have problem with accepting the ones, who do not. On the other hand, the second rider,[[RedOniBlueOni rider, [[RedOniBlueOni Gou]] holds the adamant resolution that all Roimundes are evil and throws a nasty fit when proved otherwise. From the point of Roimundes, they are as worthy as humans and what the riders do is a slaughter.slaughter.
** ''Series/KamenRiderExAid'' provides a ziggzagged example. Resident MonsterOfTheWeek species, Bugsters are videogame characters that spawn in real world by infecting people in form of virus. As such, they are bound by their programming and thus only capable of emotion or independent thought as much as it allows. Usually, there is no way to save the patient without destroying the Bugster spawned. Most Bugsters are violent because they were programmed as villains of their respective games. [[TheHeart Emu]] has some succes trying to reason with the benign ones. Other Doctor riders don't have such moral compunctions if presented oppurtunity.
*** The matter is brought up by de facto leader of Bugsters, [[EnigmaticMinion Pallad]]. He calls humans out on being hypocritical by creating video games only to have [[DesignatedVillain designated villains]] they could beat up to feel better about themselves. From his point of view Bugsters matter as much as humans do. If it doesn't matter if they were defeated according to game rules, because that's how it's supposed to be. They can respawn indefinitely. He objects only to their DesignatedVillain position.
12th Apr '17 2:48:38 AM Flame
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** ''Series/KamenRiderDrive'' plays with this in a very complicated fashion that lingers heavily on the point of view and AlternativeCharacterInterpretation.[[RidiculouslyHumanRobots Roimundes]] are shown to be sentient and as capable of emotion as humans. The problem is that they are, by programming and other causes, very rarely anything else than AlwaysChaoticEvil. [[TheHero Shinnosuke]] usually doesn't have any issue with fighting them because they cause suffering and chaos, but doesn't have problem with accepting the ones, who do not. On the other hand, the second rider,[[RedOniBlueOni Gou]] holds the adamant resolution that all Roimundes are evil and throws a nasty fit when proved otherwise. From the point of Roimundes, they are as worthy as humans and what the riders do is a slaughter.
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