History WMG / ShinMegamiTensei

7th Jun '16 11:15:45 PM LordPentium
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[[WMG: [[VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIIINocturne The True Demon Ending]] ''[[ShootTheShaggyDog failed]]''.]]
Look at YHVH and Satan in VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiII, and compare them to what those figures look like [[VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIVApocalypse more recently]]. YHVH clearly likes Aleph more if Aleph takes the Law path, implying that His will in II really is for the Law side to win forever. And while Satan is split in half in both games, [[spoiler:neither of those halves is Lucifer.]] Gabriel's characterization is different than it is in [[VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIV IV]] as well: she goes from the OnlySaneMan of the Heralds to just as much of a KnightTemplar as the others. The mainline continuity between II and the IV duology has included two games: Nocturne, and [[VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiStrangeJourney Strange Journey]]. YHVH isn't very active in SJ, being too busy [[PiecesOfGod being broken up with one piece trying to pull Himself back together]]. But back in Nocturne, we had an ending where the Demi-Fiend joined Lucifer, ended time, and made war on the entire cycle of the universe as overseen and maintained by the Great Will of which YHVH is a part. YHVH is back on his feet, [[HugeHolographicHead so to speak]], by the time of IV, while Lucifer... [[NotAsYouKnowThem This isn't the Lucifer of old.]] [[spoiler: Lucifer Classic was [[ArchEnemy the rebel against God's will]], not half of [[TheDragon Satan]] like the new one is.]] Sure there was some damage, [[spoiler:the Heralds weren't half of Satan back then either, the Demi-Fiend killed three of them in the main game and might have killed Michael after the credits rolled]], but it's clear. At the end of the final battle, [[TheBadGuyWins the one left standing was not the Demi-Fiend or Lucifer, but a damaged, broken, yet surviving YHVH, ready to re-create the universe]], [[spoiler:but different this time, with Himself behind sides of the ForeverWar]]. [[spoiler:And this goes whether or not you take the Stephen battle DLC into account, whether the Demi-Fiend went back to beat Lucifer or not, though Stephen himself yet survived the destruction.]]
5th Nov '15 5:38:17 PM nombretomado
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[[WMG: Gabriel fell into a [[RanmaOneHalf Drowned Spring Of Girl]] in between VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiI and VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiII]]

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[[WMG: Gabriel fell into a [[RanmaOneHalf [[Manga/RanmaOneHalf Drowned Spring Of Girl]] in between VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiI and VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiII]]
28th Sep '15 3:29:16 PM SteelEdge
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[[WMG: SMT 1's AdamAndEvePlot symbolism]]
If the hero and heroine really are Adam and Eve, then it goes beyond just the whole 'repopulate humanity' thing. Around the start of the game, the heroine (Eve) is the first to take power and responsibility into her own hands by becoming the leader of LaResistance (eating the fruit of knowledge). She convinces the hero (Adam) to do the same by asking him to take care of Gotou and Thorman (Eve persuaded Adam into eating the fruit). By their actions (although it really isn't their fault in SMT), Japan is nuked (banished from Eden.) Both the hero and heroine survive the new world and eventually repopulate it.
10th Apr '15 8:18:09 PM nombretomado
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DigitalDevilSaga states\\

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DigitalDevilSaga VideoGame/DigitalDevilSaga states\\
30th Mar '15 1:01:05 PM nombretomado
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[[WMG: Kamala is a [[{{ElfenLied}} diclonius soul]]]]

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[[WMG: Kamala is a [[{{ElfenLied}} [[Manga/ElfenLied diclonius soul]]]]
29th Apr '14 3:50:24 PM finalsurvivor1
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But before you panic, not all versions of YHVH are insane despots; just the first two. The main avatar is the Great Will of ''Nocturne'', but all we know of Him comes from two extremely biased sources - who knows if they were lying just to get the Demi Fiend on their side? Furthermore, this could explain why God hasn't been all that evil recently. Since ''Nocturne'' and ''IV'' all but outright state that the games are in multiple universes for the most part, this would be a good explanation for why YHVH seems to be so different in each game: They're completely different people. ''Devil Survivor'''s God, for example, doesn't seem to be as tyrannical as the original two YHVHs, but instead a truly loving, if flawed, deity who made a few mistakes in the past and is willing to give humanity another chance. This theory goes all the way back to the Famicom - the original YHVH states that He is only one of many deities that make up the Great Will.

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But before you panic, not all versions of YHVH are insane despots; just the first two. The main avatar is the Great Will of ''Nocturne'', but all we know of Him comes from two extremely biased sources - who knows if they were lying just to get the Demi Fiend on their side? Furthermore, this could explain why God hasn't been all that evil recently. Since ''Nocturne'' and ''IV'' all but outright state that the games are in multiple universes for the most part, this would be a good explanation for why YHVH seems to be so different in each game: They're completely different people. ''Devil Survivor'''s God, for example, doesn't seem to be as tyrannical as the original two YHVHs, avatars, but instead a truly loving, if flawed, deity who made a few mistakes in the past and is willing to give humanity another chance. This theory goes all the way back to the Famicom - the original YHVH states that He is only one of many deities that make up the Great Will.
29th Apr '14 3:50:08 PM finalsurvivor1
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[[WMG: YHVH is really just another avatar of the Great Will, and there are plenty more]]
But before you panic, not all versions of YHVH are insane despots; just the first two. The main avatar is the Great Will of ''Nocturne'', but all we know of Him comes from two extremely biased sources - who knows if they were lying just to get the Demi Fiend on their side? Furthermore, this could explain why God hasn't been all that evil recently. Since ''Nocturne'' and ''IV'' all but outright state that the games are in multiple universes for the most part, this would be a good explanation for why YHVH seems to be so different in each game: They're completely different people. ''Devil Survivor'''s God, for example, doesn't seem to be as tyrannical as the original two YHVHs, but instead a truly loving, if flawed, deity who made a few mistakes in the past and is willing to give humanity another chance. This theory goes all the way back to the Famicom - the original YHVH states that He is only one of many deities that make up the Great Will.
2nd Feb '14 2:39:20 PM Nerrin
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[[WMG: Nocturne's True Demon ending is actually the lead-in to the ultimate Good End for the multiverse]]
Ever wonder why all these alternate universes always seem to end up with a version very alike modern-day Earth? There is an essential flaw in the nature of reality itself, and Earth - and YHVH's evil - are a reflection of that flaw. Like light through a damaged lens, all you get is the same Earth over and over again just like you would see the same flaw when looking through that lens. YHVH and most of the angels are too marked by that flaw to realize something's wrong, while Lucifer was able to disconnect himself from YHVH to gain the needed perspective. You can't fix it with a little surface polish, or by turning the light off and back on, you have to replace the lens entirely... which in this case, means replacing ''reality'' entirely. And the only way to do that at this point is to break everything, melt it down and filter out the impurities, and attempt to recast the whole multiverse once more. Only then will a better world and a better ''God'' be possible. It's just that Lucifer's the only one willing to take the hammer to everything to break it down and start over, but he needs the help of someone like the Demifiend because even Lucifer is not enough on his own.
14th Nov '13 1:50:46 AM EarlOfSandvich
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[[WMG: Gabriel fell into a [[RanmaOneHalf Drowned Spring Of Girl]] in between ShinMegamiTenseiI and ShinMegamiTenseiII]]
* In ShinMegamiTenseiI, Gabriel was male. In ShinMegamiTenseiII, Gabriel is female. I don't think gender change was a coincidence.

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[[WMG: Gabriel fell into a [[RanmaOneHalf Drowned Spring Of Girl]] in between ShinMegamiTenseiI VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiI and ShinMegamiTenseiII]]
VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiII]]
* In ShinMegamiTenseiI, VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiI, Gabriel was male. In ShinMegamiTenseiII, VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiII, Gabriel is female. I don't think gender change was a coincidence.



[[WMG: StrangeJourney is the prequel to the entire Megaten 'verse]]

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[[WMG: StrangeJourney
[[WMG:Strange Journey
is the prequel to the entire Megaten 'verse]]



It goes with the above theory that StrangeJourney is a prequel to the SMT series, as YHVH doesn't really seem to mind so many people opposing him, and would rather let his subordinates do most of the work. Ever notice how Mem Aleph's role is pretty much the same as YHVH's in this game, except in the opposite faction? Notice how Lucifer does next to nothing in this game besides spark the people's rebellion, instead of the subtle manipulation he usually uses? And where are the Archangels in all of this? My theory is that Mastema also had a hand in this, as he wasn't exactly following YHVH's orders for the greater good. Frustrated with the MC's victory over him, he strikes a deal with Mem Aleph to overthrow YHVH and rule together as one being. Thus we have the YHVH that has both Mastema's hostility and Mem Aleph's role as regular destroyer of the world, and made the Archangels to be their personal Lickspittle.

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It goes with the above theory that StrangeJourney VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiStrangeJourney is a prequel to the SMT series, as YHVH doesn't really seem to mind so many people opposing him, and would rather let his subordinates do most of the work. Ever notice how Mem Aleph's role is pretty much the same as YHVH's in this game, except in the opposite faction? Notice how Lucifer does next to nothing in this game besides spark the people's rebellion, instead of the subtle manipulation he usually uses? And where are the Archangels in all of this? My theory is that Mastema also had a hand in this, as he wasn't exactly following YHVH's orders for the greater good. Frustrated with the MC's victory over him, he strikes a deal with Mem Aleph to overthrow YHVH and rule together as one being. Thus we have the YHVH that has both Mastema's hostility and Mem Aleph's role as regular destroyer of the world, and made the Archangels to be their personal Lickspittle.



* The Three Wise Men, Mastema and most of the angels you speak to, most of them in Sector Grus, are fervent idealists who believe in TheEvilsOfFreeWill and think a WorldOfSilence is the magical response for everything wrong on Earth in StrangeJourney. I find it too hard to believe such echelons are still willing to defy YHWH's will even if the outcome is exactly what they were planning on. Even if they succeed, what are they going to do? Go to the Big Man Upstairs and show him how they've washed clean the slate he wanted to preserve, all the while with a smile on their faces?

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* The Three Wise Men, Mastema and most of the angels you speak to, most of them in Sector Grus, are fervent idealists who believe in TheEvilsOfFreeWill and think a WorldOfSilence is the magical response for everything wrong on Earth in StrangeJourney.Strange Journey. I find it too hard to believe such echelons are still willing to defy YHWH's will even if the outcome is exactly what they were planning on. Even if they succeed, what are they going to do? Go to the Big Man Upstairs and show him how they've washed clean the slate he wanted to preserve, all the while with a smile on their faces?



It came to bite the old gods on the ass when they were finally forced to retreat or vanish into Humanity's subconscious when upon its enlightenment and advance of civilization humanity denied its magical potential. Comments from the angels in StrangeJourney in Sector Grus make it clear the angels want us to obey and serve them. Mastema clearly sees humans as tools and often preachs against TheEvilsOfFreeWill and gladly empowers Zelenin, who's essentially played doormat for him at all times. Angels in virtually every game (Metatron comes to mind) are repulsed by Humanity and boss humans as much as they want. YHWH, now on full-blown bastard mode, now can only think of humans as the miserable little nothings he made them as and refuses to accept He failed at any point most of the time.

He did soften up a bit in VideoGame/DevilSurvivor, as the result of the sealing of Nyx and the defeat of Izanami, reducing the negative energy he's being fed, seeing there might be something worth rescuing on humans... but obviously He was back to his old self in StrangeJourney. Therefore, the Persona series comes ''before'' ShinMegamiTensei and not afterwards, with VideoGame/DevilSurvivor next, then StrangeJourney, with the Neutral ending in which humanity didn't learn anything and precipitated the conditions for the apocalypses ravaging the Earth in ShinMegamiTensei's series, in which every hero seems to have an affinity for hitting the ResetButton in Neutral endings in I and II, then IMAGINE; this last one returned control of Earth to humanity, letting it all culminate on ShinMegamiTenseiNocturne, which is the final battle for dominion of all with the destruction of Kagutsuchi and the end of all time.

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It came to bite the old gods on the ass when they were finally forced to retreat or vanish into Humanity's subconscious when upon its enlightenment and advance of civilization humanity denied its magical potential. Comments from the angels in StrangeJourney Strange Journey in Sector Grus make it clear the angels want us to obey and serve them. Mastema clearly sees humans as tools and often preachs against TheEvilsOfFreeWill and gladly empowers Zelenin, who's essentially played doormat for him at all times. Angels in virtually every game (Metatron comes to mind) are repulsed by Humanity and boss humans as much as they want. YHWH, now on full-blown bastard mode, now can only think of humans as the miserable little nothings he made them as and refuses to accept He failed at any point most of the time.

He did soften up a bit in VideoGame/DevilSurvivor, as the result of the sealing of Nyx and the defeat of Izanami, reducing the negative energy he's being fed, seeing there might be something worth rescuing on humans... but obviously He was back to his old self in StrangeJourney. Strange Journey. Therefore, the Persona series comes ''before'' ShinMegamiTensei Franchise/ShinMegamiTensei and not afterwards, with VideoGame/DevilSurvivor next, then StrangeJourney, Strange Journey, with the Neutral ending in which humanity didn't learn anything and precipitated the conditions for the apocalypses ravaging the Earth in ShinMegamiTensei's Shin Megami Tensei's series, in which every hero seems to have an affinity for hitting the ResetButton in Neutral endings in I and II, then IMAGINE; this last one returned control of Earth to humanity, letting it all culminate on ShinMegamiTenseiNocturne, VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiIIINocturne, which is the final battle for dominion of all with the destruction of Kagutsuchi and the end of all time.



[[WMG: [[http://www.theonion.com/articles/nasa-completes-52year-mission-to-find-kill-god,19263/ This]] is the plot of the next ShinMegamiTensei game]]

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[[WMG: [[http://www.theonion.com/articles/nasa-completes-52year-mission-to-find-kill-god,19263/ This]] is the plot of the next ShinMegamiTensei Shin Megami Tensei game]]



''VideoGame/DevilSurvivor'' has arguably one of the more horrifying premises in the series, yet it only got a T-rating. Mara is absent in this game. Meanwhile, ''StrangeJourney'', while not much more violent, is rated M. Mara puts in an appearance.

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''VideoGame/DevilSurvivor'' has arguably one of the more horrifying premises in the series, yet it only got a T-rating. Mara is absent in this game. Meanwhile, ''StrangeJourney'', ''VideoGame/ShinMegamiTenseiStrangeJourney'', while not much more violent, is rated M. Mara puts in an appearance.



*** Apparently, there were cases of intelligent life getting out of hand even ''before'' humanity, each time shut down by Mem Aleph and/or the Wise Men. It seems to be [[EternalRecurrence an endless coil with Chaos ruling]]; at some point, ''something'' starts to stultify (because it succeeded in overpowering everything else in the vicinity, meaning there's no point in struggling; just a waste of energy), and try to stultify everything else so it can stay in comfort and existence. The ABCD ring in ''StrangeJourney'' is how Chaos sees this as actually playing out (you probably want to start with Bootes). Arguably, the angels, and ultimately even the Wise Men--''themselves'' one with the Earth--got sick of this coil. But if demons, the angels included, reflect the desires, goals, and impulses of sapient life, then it implies that ''life itself'' was getting sick of the Chaos coil, no matter how often Mem Aleph claimed nothing could be better for existence than the painful-yet-exultation-perfecting eternal roil (hence ''her'' idea of a solution in SJ--imbuing herself directly into creation so she can personally make it impossible to stop struggling). But with each turn of the coil through ruin, life's aggregate resentment of Chaos's seeming scorn (which is, admittedly, real enough; look at Ouroboros's patronizing view of matter as sinful, apparently ''meant'' to be shackled by spirit/energy/flux) became all the greater. Each coil imbuing YHVH, the essence of Law, with greater fanaticism and fervor. So...can the Earth be said to hate '''''itself''''', somehow, whether or not there's a civilization around? With the enmity between Law and Chaos as the embodiment of that self-hatred, and Neutrality's exemplars (Gore, Taishang Laojun, etc.) as the attempt to assuage said self-hatred?

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*** Apparently, there were cases of intelligent life getting out of hand even ''before'' humanity, each time shut down by Mem Aleph and/or the Wise Men. It seems to be [[EternalRecurrence an endless coil with Chaos ruling]]; at some point, ''something'' starts to stultify (because it succeeded in overpowering everything else in the vicinity, meaning there's no point in struggling; just a waste of energy), and try to stultify everything else so it can stay in comfort and existence. The ABCD ring in ''StrangeJourney'' ''Strange Journey'' is how Chaos sees this as actually playing out (you probably want to start with Bootes). Arguably, the angels, and ultimately even the Wise Men--''themselves'' one with the Earth--got sick of this coil. But if demons, the angels included, reflect the desires, goals, and impulses of sapient life, then it implies that ''life itself'' was getting sick of the Chaos coil, no matter how often Mem Aleph claimed nothing could be better for existence than the painful-yet-exultation-perfecting eternal roil (hence ''her'' idea of a solution in SJ--imbuing herself directly into creation so she can personally make it impossible to stop struggling). But with each turn of the coil through ruin, life's aggregate resentment of Chaos's seeming scorn (which is, admittedly, real enough; look at Ouroboros's patronizing view of matter as sinful, apparently ''meant'' to be shackled by spirit/energy/flux) became all the greater. Each coil imbuing YHVH, the essence of Law, with greater fanaticism and fervor. So...can the Earth be said to hate '''''itself''''', somehow, whether or not there's a civilization around? With the enmity between Law and Chaos as the embodiment of that self-hatred, and Neutrality's exemplars (Gore, Taishang Laojun, etc.) as the attempt to assuage said self-hatred?
12th Oct '13 10:25:33 PM Discman
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* "Shin Megami Tensei IV" shows even more Gnosticism by shedding more light on the relationship between YHVH and Demiurge. In that world at least Demiurge is, according to Lucifer, a Godly demon (even though it says he's a Vile if you have him) that broke away from YHVH to rule a silent world and deluded himself into believing he was the creator. After you defeat him Lucifer says that the real creator and true enemy is much more powerful, so this pretty much proves that even though Demiurge is an avatar/piece of God they are pretty much separate beings. This adds more FridgeHorror when not only is the False God evil but also the True God.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=WMG.ShinMegamiTensei