History WMG / Safehold

9th Jun '17 3:54:28 PM Antigone3
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[[WMG:We will see Clyntahn's escape tunnel again.]]
Come on, a tunnel running from a hidden basement in the Temple to well outside the no-tech zone, and a very high chance that the only people alive at the end of Book 7 who know about it are Merlin and Nimue? Maybe it's not safe for either [=PICA=] to sneak in and see where the other end is, but one of the inner circle members could easily walk (or ride a bicycle) in. I ''think'' the series establishes that it would be safe to have a totally-passive sensor remote carried in and out, but if they don't want to take that chance there's such a thing as sketch pads and pencils.
24th May '17 12:00:49 PM AthenaBlue
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[[WMG: Schuler suffered from [[SplitPersonality Disassociative Personality Disorder]] ]]

There are extreme differences between how he appears in the Key and [[spoiler: Seijin Khody's diary]] and how he appears in the writ and in the effects that followed the afformentioned [[spoiler: diary]]. He's also a person who suffered through a [[DespairEventHorizon soul breaking life]]

[[WMG: Langhorne and Bédard have [=PICAs=] hidden away underneath the Zion Temple]]
''Those'' are the power sources that Merlin detected long ago and that have worried him ever since.

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[[WMG: Schuler [[WMG:Schueler suffered from [[SplitPersonality Disassociative Personality Disorder]] ]]

]]
There are extreme differences between how he appears in the Key and [[spoiler: Seijin Khody's [[spoiler:Seijin Kohdy's diary]] and how he appears in the writ ''Writ'' and in the effects that followed the afformentioned [[spoiler: diary]]. [[spoiler:diary]]. He's also a person who suffered through a [[DespairEventHorizon soul breaking life]]

[[WMG: Langhorne
life]].

[[WMG:Langhorne
and Bédard have [=PICAs=] hidden away underneath the Zion Temple]]
Temple]]
''Those'' are the power sources that Merlin detected long ago and that have worried him ever since.



* ''How Firm A Foundation'' suggests that Schueler [[spoiler:may never have written the ''Book of Schueler'' at all. It was instead someone else's work attributed to him. The messages Paityr Wylsynn describes paint him as the kind of Archangel the Wylsynns would have every reason to revere.]]

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* ''How Firm A a Foundation'' suggests that Schueler [[spoiler:may never have written the ''Book of Schueler'' at all. It was instead someone else's work attributed to him. The messages Paityr Wylsynn describes paint him as the kind of Archangel the Wylsynns would have every reason to revere.]]






[[WMG: The Safehold series tells the story of how the 4th Imperium came to be in David Weber's Empire from the Ashes series]]

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[[WMG: The Safehold series tells the story of how the 4th Imperium came to be in David Weber's Empire ''Empire from the Ashes Ashes'' series]]



** On the other hand, since Safehold is an {{Expy}} of that one planet from Empire from the Ashes, I wouldn't be surprised if they founded an expy of the 4th Imperium. It would almost certainly be a continuation of the Empire of Charis.

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** On the other hand, since Safehold is an {{Expy}} of that one planet from Empire ''Empire from the Ashes, Ashes'', I wouldn't be surprised if they founded an expy of the 4th Imperium. It would almost certainly be a continuation of the Empire of Charis.




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* Jossed, although Archbishop Arthyn ''does'' have a HeelFaceTurn.



* Zaspahr Clyntahn actually has some knowledge about the true nature of Safehold. Contrary to the protagonists, however, Clyntahn has chosen to enforce the MedievalStasis rather than rally against it.

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* Zaspahr Zhaspahr Clyntahn actually has some knowledge about the true nature of Safehold. Contrary to the protagonists, however, Clyntahn has chosen to enforce the MedievalStasis rather than rally against it.



[[WMG: The Key of Scheuler is meant to be used to ''stop'' whatever's under the Temple.]]
* This would require that Scheuler was, at least at the end, one of the good guys. I'm also assuming that whatever's under there is going to look at the state of Safehold's technology and decide whether or not to murder everyone based on how well they're following the Proscriptions. It might exterminate humanity if the technology has spread too much.
* The Key is meant to be used in the church's "greatest hour of need." Scheuler probably figured that by the thousand year mark (especially if he knew about Nimue), humanity would have gone too far past the Proscriptions and that whatever is under the Temple would decide that humanity has gone too far and exterminate everybody. The Key is meant to shut down the doomsday weapon permanently, via a back door that Scheuler snuck into it.

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[[WMG: The Key of Scheuler Schueler is meant to be used to ''stop'' whatever's under the Temple.]]
* This would require that Scheuler Schueler was, at least at the end, one of the good guys. I'm also assuming that whatever's under there is going to look at the state of Safehold's technology and decide whether or not to murder everyone based on how well they're following the Proscriptions. It might exterminate humanity if the technology has spread too much.
* The Key is meant to be used in the church's "greatest hour of need." Scheuler Schueler probably figured that by the thousand year mark (especially if he knew about Nimue), humanity would have gone too far past the Proscriptions and that whatever is under the Temple would decide that humanity has gone too far and exterminate everybody. The Key is meant to shut down the doomsday weapon permanently, via a back door that Scheuler Schueler snuck into it.



[[WMG: Scheuler was just like Duchairn]]

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[[WMG: Scheuler Schueler was just like Duchairn]]



** Bonus points if Duchairn is also a descendant of Scheuler's, which is pretty even odds considering how many people must be his descendants by now.
** More bonus points if it's Duchairn who winds up using the Key of Scheuler in the Temple.

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** Bonus points if Duchairn is also a descendant of Scheuler's, Schueler's, which is pretty even odds considering how many people must be his descendants by now.
** More bonus points if it's Duchairn who winds up using the Key of Scheuler Schueler in the Temple.



** As of the end of ''Like a Mighty Army'' the Harchongese army has transformed from a joke to the biggest threat facing the army of Charis. If Charis ends up in a tough spot they may end up sending troops or some kind of secret mission to Harchong to help instigate such an uprising in order to disrupt Harchong's economy and possibly force some of the army to be recalled to help put down the revolt. The results of that uprising will be as terrible as predicted, and will provide another round of dramatic angst for Merlin and the rest of the inner circle.

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** As of the end of ''Like a Mighty Army'' Army'', the Harchongese army has transformed from a joke to the biggest threat facing the army of Charis. If Charis ends up in a tough spot they may end up sending troops or some kind of secret mission to Harchong to help instigate such an uprising in order to disrupt Harchong's economy and possibly force some of the army to be recalled to help put down the revolt. The results of that uprising will be as terrible as predicted, and will provide another round of dramatic angst for Merlin and the rest of the inner circle.



** Actually, they just might. Mind, Inquisition condemned Merlin as a demon. Wouldn't it be fit for a demon, to feign an acquittance with world-known swordsmaker to gain more credibility in the eyes of Charisian? Also, there is possibility that Rynhaard was dead shortly before the story started. One would think that Inquisitors would pay him a visit a long ago.

[[WMG: Shan Wei was slated by Langhorne to be the Satan of Safehold]]

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** Actually, they just might. Mind, the Inquisition condemned Merlin as a demon. Wouldn't it be fit for a demon, demon to feign an acquittance with world-known swordsmaker swordsmith to gain more credibility in the eyes of Charisian? Charisians? Also, there is a possibility that Rynhaard was dead shortly before the story started. One would think that Inquisitors would pay him a visit a long ago.

[[WMG: Shan Wei [[WMG:Shan-wei was slated by Langhorne to be the Satan of Safehold]]



There's references in the later novels to the Angels and Servitors returning to the Dawn Star to leave Safehold after the War Against The Fallen ends. That's a strange phrasing for a population that doesn't have any concept of interplanetary travel, but would fit well with those people heading back to one of the transport ships. We know from ''Off Armageddon Reef'' that ''Hamilcar'', Operation Ark's flagship, was kept in orbit around Safehold well into the colonization period, and was visible as a shining spot in the sky (much the way Venus is visible on Earth).

While ''Hamilcar'' was scheduled for destruction before the Alexandria Enclave got the Rakurai treatment, my guess is that it was too freaking useful once the War got underway. So, it was kept around, possibly to program the Church's seijins, possibly just as a source for "divine" weapons or battle gear, or medical treatment for the Angels. When the War ends, the surviving Archangels might not have had the capability to mind-wipe everyone who got a close look at those "divine" items, and letting them head home would risk contamination of Safehold with techie thoughts. But here's ''Hamilcar'', just sitting in orbit with loads and loads of cryo units.

The power sources under the Temple include a comm unit that can reach ''Hamilcar''. It might be set to call automatically at a given year, hence the millenial return belief, or could be triggered by something on the lines of the Key. Either way, just how happy are those people going to be when they learn what's been going on over the centuries, and how corrupt the Church they fought for became?

And remember, the original seijins were all born on Terra or her colonies, and had the necessary implants for [=NEAT=] usage. If Merlin gets hold of the comm first, all he has to do is ask Owl to send an update to the people in cryo.

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There's references in the later novels to the Angels and Servitors returning to the Dawn Star to leave Safehold after the War Against The the Fallen ends.ended. That's a strange phrasing for a population that doesn't have any concept of interplanetary travel, but would fit well with those people heading back to one of the transport ships. We know from ''Off Armageddon Reef'' that ''Hamilcar'', Operation Ark's flagship, was kept in orbit around Safehold well into the colonization period, and was visible as a shining spot in the sky (much the way Venus is visible on Earth).

While ''Hamilcar'' was scheduled for destruction before the Alexandria Enclave got the Rakurai treatment, my guess is that it was too freaking useful once the War got underway. So, it was kept around, possibly to program the Church's seijins, ''seijins'', possibly just as a source for "divine" weapons or battle gear, or medical treatment for the Angels. When the War ends, the surviving Archangels might not have had the capability to mind-wipe everyone who got a close look at those "divine" items, and letting them head home would risk contamination of Safehold with techie thoughts. But here's ''Hamilcar'', just sitting in orbit with loads and loads of cryo units.

The power sources under the Temple include a comm unit that can reach ''Hamilcar''. It might be set to call automatically at a given year, hence the millenial millennial return belief, or could be triggered by something on the lines of the Key. Either way, just how happy are those people going to be when they learn what's been going on over the centuries, and how corrupt the Church they fought for became?

And remember, the original seijins ''seijins'' were all born on Terra or her colonies, and had the necessary implants for [=NEAT=] usage. If Merlin gets hold of the comm first, all he has to do is ask Owl to send an update to the people in cryo.cryo.

[[WMG:The first big cracks in the public's belief in the ''Holy Writ'' will come via astronomers]]
The ''Writ'' teaches a Ptolemaic view of the universe, where Safehold is at the centre of the universe and everything, including its sun Kau-zhu, revolves around it. Given the recent advances in technology, and since the Jihad is over, I can easily see some Charisian astronomers, possibly with some assistance from members of the Inner Circle, coming up with the idea of using telescopes for their observations and building a nice observatory. And, in real life, Galileo's observation of the phases of Venus was what led him to realize this was tangible proof that Earth orbits the Sun. So what do you think these hypothetical astronomers are going to do when they get their hypothetical observatory, start making observations, and find that what they see with their telescopes doesn't match up with the ''Holy Writ''[='s=] description of the universe?

----
28th Mar '17 9:44:59 AM Antigone3
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And on top of that, the value of the Church mark against everyone else's currency (but especially Charis') has been dropping like a rock for years.

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And on top of that, the value of the Church mark against everyone else's currency (but especially Charis') has been dropping like a rock for years.years.

[[WMG: Merlin doesn't know it yet, but he has reinforcements coming]]
There's references in the later novels to the Angels and Servitors returning to the Dawn Star to leave Safehold after the War Against The Fallen ends. That's a strange phrasing for a population that doesn't have any concept of interplanetary travel, but would fit well with those people heading back to one of the transport ships. We know from ''Off Armageddon Reef'' that ''Hamilcar'', Operation Ark's flagship, was kept in orbit around Safehold well into the colonization period, and was visible as a shining spot in the sky (much the way Venus is visible on Earth).

While ''Hamilcar'' was scheduled for destruction before the Alexandria Enclave got the Rakurai treatment, my guess is that it was too freaking useful once the War got underway. So, it was kept around, possibly to program the Church's seijins, possibly just as a source for "divine" weapons or battle gear, or medical treatment for the Angels. When the War ends, the surviving Archangels might not have had the capability to mind-wipe everyone who got a close look at those "divine" items, and letting them head home would risk contamination of Safehold with techie thoughts. But here's ''Hamilcar'', just sitting in orbit with loads and loads of cryo units.

The power sources under the Temple include a comm unit that can reach ''Hamilcar''. It might be set to call automatically at a given year, hence the millenial return belief, or could be triggered by something on the lines of the Key. Either way, just how happy are those people going to be when they learn what's been going on over the centuries, and how corrupt the Church they fought for became?

And remember, the original seijins were all born on Terra or her colonies, and had the necessary implants for [=NEAT=] usage. If Merlin gets hold of the comm first, all he has to do is ask Owl to send an update to the people in cryo.
13th Feb '17 4:29:03 PM Bissek
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On top of that, even though the ongoing expenses of the Jihad have gone away, the debts accrued from money already spent has not. And at least two of Duchairn's efforts to fund the Jihad are in a position to backfire now that the war is lost. First, he sold off virtually all church-owned properties in the Empire of Charis. Since Charis won the war, it's doubtful that the Church of Charis is going to honor those bills of sale. Second, he issued a large number of war bonds, to be paid back after Mother Church's victory. Some people might interpret that as 'end of the war', even though Zion lost, and seek reimbursement.

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On top of that, even though the ongoing expenses of the Jihad have gone away, the debts accrued from money already spent has not. And at least two of Duchairn's efforts to fund the Jihad are in a position to backfire now that the war is lost. First, he sold off virtually all church-owned properties in the Empire of Charis. Since Charis won the war, it's doubtful that the Church of Charis is going to honor those bills of sale. Second, he issued a large number of war bonds, to be paid back after Mother Church's victory. Some people might interpret that as 'end of the war', even though Zion lost, and seek reimbursement.reimbursement.

And on top of that, the value of the Church mark against everyone else's currency (but especially Charis') has been dropping like a rock for years.
25th Jan '17 4:02:28 PM Bissek
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He was utterly disgraced by Nimue, is unlikely to get any sympathy from his fellow Guardsmen, and is even less likely to realize that his situation is his own fault. Clyntahn's people could easily offer to help him get revenge, or as he sees it, justice. Which could be a problem as he knows quite a bit about security arrangements in Manchyr.

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He was utterly disgraced by Nimue, is unlikely to get any sympathy from his fellow Guardsmen, and is even less likely to realize that his situation is his own fault. Clyntahn's people could easily offer to help him get revenge, or as he sees it, justice. Which could be a problem as he knows quite a bit about security arrangements in Manchyr.Manchyr.

[[WMG: The Church is going to face a financial crisis in book 10]]
The war may be over, so the costs of the Jihad have gone away, and there's no longer any naval blockade preventing Temple Loyalists from sending tithes to Zion. But a substantial majority of the people in the Empire of Charis aren't Temple Loyalists, so the sizes of those tithes are going to be much smaller. In addition, it looks like there are going to be more splinter churches forming in Siddermark and North Harchong, and people in other countries are now free to break from Mother Church and worship in one of the splinter churches as well, making even more of a drop in income.

On top of that, even though the ongoing expenses of the Jihad have gone away, the debts accrued from money already spent has not. And at least two of Duchairn's efforts to fund the Jihad are in a position to backfire now that the war is lost. First, he sold off virtually all church-owned properties in the Empire of Charis. Since Charis won the war, it's doubtful that the Church of Charis is going to honor those bills of sale. Second, he issued a large number of war bonds, to be paid back after Mother Church's victory. Some people might interpret that as 'end of the war', even though Zion lost, and seek reimbursement.
4th Jan '17 6:05:19 PM Bissek
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** After the Jihad ends, it's mentioned that Harchong doesn't want the thousands of surviving combat-trained peasants coming back home for fear of a peasant uprising, though the question of what ultimately happens to them isn't answered by the end of book 9.
4th Jan '17 6:02:13 PM Bissek
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*** Additionally, thanks to the captain's service to the Inquisition in apprehending Hauwerd, said cptain was made the leader of Duchairn's guard detail. And Hauwerd knew that Duchairn was the last, most desperate hope of defeating Clyntahn they had now that the Circle was about to be massacred.

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*** Additionally, thanks to the captain's service to the Inquisition in apprehending Hauwerd, said cptain captain was made the leader of Duchairn's guard detail. And Hauwerd knew that Duchairn was the last, most desperate hope of defeating Clyntahn they had now that the Circle was about to be massacred.
** [[spoiler:Semi-confirmed. Duchairn, with the help of Hauwerd's backup Helm Cleaver network (of which the head of Duchairn's guard detail is a member), launches a coup to overthrow the Inquisition and becomes Grand Vicar. So while he gets the job, it's not due to an election.]]
15th Nov '16 1:37:04 PM sgamer82
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Jossed in ''At the Sign of Trimph''. In the book's finale, [[spoiler:Clyntahn is arrested and set to be executed. His attempts to remain DefiantToTheEnd crumble when Merlin and Nimue show him archive footage of the "archangels"]].
4th Jan '16 6:25:31 PM Sivartius
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[[WMG: Schuler suffered from [[MesaCrowd Disassociative Personality Disorder]] ]]

There are extreme differences between how he appears in the Key and [[spoilers: Seijin Khody's diary]] and how he appears in the writ and in the effects that followed the afformentioned [[spoilers: diary]]. He's also a person who suffered through a [[DespairEventHorizon soul breaking life]]

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[[WMG: Schuler suffered from [[MesaCrowd [[SplitPersonality Disassociative Personality Disorder]] ]]

There are extreme differences between how he appears in the Key and [[spoilers: [[spoiler: Seijin Khody's diary]] and how he appears in the writ and in the effects that followed the afformentioned [[spoilers: [[spoiler: diary]]. He's also a person who suffered through a [[DespairEventHorizon soul breaking life]]
4th Jan '16 6:19:37 PM Sivartius
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Added DiffLines:

[[WMG: Schuler suffered from [[MesaCrowd Disassociative Personality Disorder]] ]]

There are extreme differences between how he appears in the Key and [[spoilers: Seijin Khody's diary]] and how he appears in the writ and in the effects that followed the afformentioned [[spoilers: diary]]. He's also a person who suffered through a [[DespairEventHorizon soul breaking life]]
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