History WMG / ParadiseLost

20th May '15 1:36:41 AM MachRider1985
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[[WMG: [[Main/GodIsEvil God really is a tyrant]] ruling on the principle that [[Main/OmniscientMoralityLicense Might Makes Right.]]]]
Satan's accusations in the first two books are, in fact, spot-on; the assertions that he and the [[Main/TheLegionsOfHell assembled devils]] are lying are made by the epic voice itself, which is identified repeatedly with the Holy Spirit. In effect, God is being called as the only witness at his own trial; lest we forget, the stated intent of the epic is to "[[GodIsGood justify the ways of God to men.]]" In Book V, during the War in Heaven, God the Father even says to the Son that "Nearly it now concerns us to be sure/Of our Omnipotence, and with what arms/We mean to hold what anciently we claim/Of deity or Empire..." and goes on to call for a decisive counter-offensive, "lest unawares we lose/This our high place, our sanctuary, our hill." He claims in Book VI that he allows the battle to go on for two full days and part of a third in order to glorify the Son (not yet identified as Jesus, since it's still quite some time before he'll come to Earth), but it could also be that he ''needed'' that time in order to marshal his power and be sure of a crushing victory.

After winning the war, God goes on to mercilessly thwart anyone who might even kind of think about challenging or even disobeying him. He practically micro-manages Satan's temptation of Eve; first allowing Satan out of Hell, then watching serenely as he approaches the newly-formed Earth, not warning Adam and Eve (or, for that matter, any of the angels who were supposed to be guarding them) about the approaching threat, and subsequently maneuvering his angelic servitors justly enough to make Satan angrier at him without actually thwarting his scheme. Add onto all this that, as he says in Book III, he ''already knows'' that Eve will succumb to the temptation, and Adam will follow her. In the last two books, Michael gives a narrative of future (Biblical) history in which we see God time and again smack down any mortals who dare to stand up for themselves. The only moral value that works out for anyone is mindless obedience.

This is not to say that Satan is the "[[Main/SatanIsGood good guy]]," though. He's still petty, invidious, spiteful, and above all vain. But he's more of a [[Main/FallenHero Fallen Hero]] than a [[Main/CardCarryingVillain Card Carrying Villain]], and looking at the ways God manipulates him throughout the epic, he's clearly being set up for a fall (well, for ''the'' Fall). This starts as early as the exaltation of the Son in Book V (this is told as a Flashback, and is chronologically the beginning of the story), where what previously seemed a "republic of Heaven" (to apply [[Main/HisDarkMaterials Phillip Pullman's]] phrase in another context) is arbitrarily transformed into a dictatorship. Again, no matter how inexplicable and apparently pointless the decrees, the only moral standard of any value is blind obedience. And let's not forget that God has supposedly already foreseen how all of this is going to turn out. He's [[Main/TheChessmaster The Chessmaster]], and he's playing both sides.

Of course, there are counter-arguments; Stanley Fish put forth what is probably the most popular modern one in ''Surprised by Sin''. But that's part of what makes ''PL'' so much ''fun''.

* Milton was a notable anti-monarchist, and often described God with monarchistic and imperialist motifs.



* [[FridgeHorror This raises unsettling implications]] [[CosmicHorrorStory about YHWH]]...

to:

* [[FridgeHorror This raises unsettling implications]] [[CosmicHorrorStory about YHWH]]...

19th Aug '14 10:59:14 AM ChaoticNovelist
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Since the hebrew gods are in popular culture flanderized into devils but the greek ones aren't, Moloch and pals paid Milton to write a book where the other pagan gods were demons as well. Unfortunately for them, Milton didn't got the memo and wrote Moloch as a demon as well...

to:

Since the hebrew gods are in popular culture flanderized into devils but the greek ones aren't, Moloch and pals paid Milton to write a book where the other pagan gods were demons as well. Unfortunately for them, Milton didn't got the memo and wrote Moloch as a demon as well...
well.



* Satan in the ''Divine Comedy'' is ''huge'', though. Then again, in Book X of ''Paradise Lost'' (the last time we see him), Satan does appear as a Dragon (obviously referencing the Literature/BookOfRevelation)...

to:

* Satan in the ''Divine Comedy'' is ''huge'', though. but Then again, in Book X of ''Paradise Lost'' (the last time we see him), Satan does appear as a Dragon (obviously referencing the Literature/BookOfRevelation)...



Satan's accusations in the first two books are, in fact, spot-on; the assertions that he and the [[Main/TheLegionsOfHell assembled devils]] are lying are made by the epic voice itself, which is identified repeatedly with the Holy Spirit. In effect, God is being called as the only witness at his own trial; lest we forget, the stated intent of the epic is to "justify the ways of God to men." In Book V, during the War in Heaven, God the Father even says to the Son that "Nearly it now concerns us to be sure/Of our Omnipotence, and with what arms/We mean to hold what anciently we claim/Of deity or Empire..." and goes on to call for a decisive counter-offensive, "lest unawares we lose/This our high place, our sanctuary, our hill." He claims in Book VI that he allows the battle to go on for two full days and part of a third in order to glorify the Son (not yet identified as Jesus, since it's still quite some time before he'll come to Earth), but it could also be that he ''needed'' that time in order to marshal his power and be sure of a crushing victory.

to:

Satan's accusations in the first two books are, in fact, spot-on; the assertions that he and the [[Main/TheLegionsOfHell assembled devils]] are lying are made by the epic voice itself, which is identified repeatedly with the Holy Spirit. In effect, God is being called as the only witness at his own trial; lest we forget, the stated intent of the epic is to "justify "[[GodIsGood justify the ways of God to men." ]]" In Book V, during the War in Heaven, God the Father even says to the Son that "Nearly it now concerns us to be sure/Of our Omnipotence, and with what arms/We mean to hold what anciently we claim/Of deity or Empire..." and goes on to call for a decisive counter-offensive, "lest unawares we lose/This our high place, our sanctuary, our hill." He claims in Book VI that he allows the battle to go on for two full days and part of a third in order to glorify the Son (not yet identified as Jesus, since it's still quite some time before he'll come to Earth), but it could also be that he ''needed'' that time in order to marshal his power and be sure of a crushing victory.



* Milton was a notable anti-monarchist, and often described God with monarchistic and imperialist motifs....
* There are those (including this troper) whose faith/religion assumes this to be the case...
** Neo-Gnosticism?

to:

* Milton was a notable anti-monarchist, and often described God with monarchistic and imperialist motifs....
* There are those (including this troper) whose faith/religion assumes this to be the case...
** Neo-Gnosticism?
motifs.
22nd Sep '13 5:34:29 AM memememememe
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Order and Chaos are the truly immortal beings that exist for eternity. After creating the universe out of Chaos, Order assumes the name of God.

to:

[[OrderVersusChaos Order and Chaos Chaos]] are the truly immortal beings that exist for eternity. After creating the universe out of Chaos, Order assumes the name of God. Lucifer was only able to screw God because he has Chaos' support.
22nd Sep '13 5:33:38 AM memememememe
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* [[FridgeHorror This raises unsettling implications]] [[CosmicHorrorStory about YHWH]]...

to:

* [[FridgeHorror This raises unsettling implications]] [[CosmicHorrorStory about YHWH]]...YHWH]]...

[[WMG: ''Paradise Lost'' is not monotheistic.]]
Order and Chaos are the truly immortal beings that exist for eternity. After creating the universe out of Chaos, Order assumes the name of God.
17th Sep '13 2:12:12 AM memememememe
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Satan's accusations in the first two books are, in fact, spot-on; the assertions that he and the [[Main/TheLegionsOfHell assembled devils]] are lying are made by the epic voice itself, which is identified repeatedly with the Holy Spirit. In effect, God is being called as the only witness at his own trial; lest we forget, the stated intent of the epic is to "justify the ways of God to men." In Book V, during the War in Heaven, God the Father even says to the Son that "Nearly it now concerns us to be sure/Of our Omnipotence, and with what arms/We mean to hold what anciently we claim/Of deity or empire..." and goes on to call for a decisive counter-offensive, "lest unawares we lose/This our high place, our sanctuary, our hill." He claims in Book VI that he allows the battle to go on for two full days and part of a third in order to glorify the Son (not yet identified as Jesus, since it's still quite some time before he'll come to Earth), but it could also be that he ''needed'' that time in order to marshal his power and be sure of a crushing victory. After winning the war, God goes on to mercilessly thwart anyone who might even kind of think about challenging or even disobeying him. He practically micro-manages Satan's temptation of Eve; first allowing Satan out of Hell, then watching serenely as he approaches the newly-formed Earth, not warning Adam and Eve (or, for that matter, any of the angels who were supposed to be guarding them) about the approaching threat, and subsequently maneuvering his angelic servitors justly enough to make Satan angrier at him without actually thwarting his scheme. Add onto all this that, as he says in Book III, he ''already knows'' that Eve will succumb to the temptation, and Adam will follow her. In the last two books, Michael gives a narrative of future (Biblical) history in which we see God time and again smack down any mortals who dare to stand up for themselves. The only moral value that works out for anyone is mindless obedience.

This is not to say that Satan is the "[[Main/SatanIsGood good guy]]," though. He's still petty, invidious, spiteful, and above all vain. But he's more of a [[Main/FallenHero Fallen Hero]] than a [[Main/CardCarryingVillain Card Carrying Villain]], and looking at the ways God manipulates him throughout the epic, he's clearly being set up for a fall (well, for ''the'' Fall). This starts as early as the exaltation of the Son in Book V (this is told as a Flashback, and is chronologically the beginning of the story), where what previously seemed a "republic of Heaven" (to apply [[Main/HisDarkMaterials Phillip Pullman's]] phrase in another context) is arbitrarily transformed into a monarchy. Again, no matter how inexplicable and apparently pointless the decrees, the only moral standard of any value is blind obedience. And let's not forget that God has supposedly already foreseen how all of this is going to turn out. He's [[Main/TheChessmaster The Chessmaster]], and he's playing both sides.

to:

Satan's accusations in the first two books are, in fact, spot-on; the assertions that he and the [[Main/TheLegionsOfHell assembled devils]] are lying are made by the epic voice itself, which is identified repeatedly with the Holy Spirit. In effect, God is being called as the only witness at his own trial; lest we forget, the stated intent of the epic is to "justify the ways of God to men." In Book V, during the War in Heaven, God the Father even says to the Son that "Nearly it now concerns us to be sure/Of our Omnipotence, and with what arms/We mean to hold what anciently we claim/Of deity or empire...Empire..." and goes on to call for a decisive counter-offensive, "lest unawares we lose/This our high place, our sanctuary, our hill." He claims in Book VI that he allows the battle to go on for two full days and part of a third in order to glorify the Son (not yet identified as Jesus, since it's still quite some time before he'll come to Earth), but it could also be that he ''needed'' that time in order to marshal his power and be sure of a crushing victory.

After winning the war, God goes on to mercilessly thwart anyone who might even kind of think about challenging or even disobeying him. He practically micro-manages Satan's temptation of Eve; first allowing Satan out of Hell, then watching serenely as he approaches the newly-formed Earth, not warning Adam and Eve (or, for that matter, any of the angels who were supposed to be guarding them) about the approaching threat, and subsequently maneuvering his angelic servitors justly enough to make Satan angrier at him without actually thwarting his scheme. Add onto all this that, as he says in Book III, he ''already knows'' that Eve will succumb to the temptation, and Adam will follow her. In the last two books, Michael gives a narrative of future (Biblical) history in which we see God time and again smack down any mortals who dare to stand up for themselves. The only moral value that works out for anyone is mindless obedience.

This is not to say that Satan is the "[[Main/SatanIsGood good guy]]," though. He's still petty, invidious, spiteful, and above all vain. But he's more of a [[Main/FallenHero Fallen Hero]] than a [[Main/CardCarryingVillain Card Carrying Villain]], and looking at the ways God manipulates him throughout the epic, he's clearly being set up for a fall (well, for ''the'' Fall). This starts as early as the exaltation of the Son in Book V (this is told as a Flashback, and is chronologically the beginning of the story), where what previously seemed a "republic of Heaven" (to apply [[Main/HisDarkMaterials Phillip Pullman's]] phrase in another context) is arbitrarily transformed into a monarchy.dictatorship. Again, no matter how inexplicable and apparently pointless the decrees, the only moral standard of any value is blind obedience. And let's not forget that God has supposedly already foreseen how all of this is going to turn out. He's [[Main/TheChessmaster The Chessmaster]], and he's playing both sides.


Added DiffLines:

* Milton was a notable anti-monarchist, and often described God with monarchistic and imperialist motifs....
24th Aug '13 6:17:38 AM Viira
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[[WMG: Satan's fandom have StockholmSyndrome.[[hottip:*:Disclaimer: Take as seriously as all TV Tropes EpilepticTrees.]]]]

to:

[[WMG: Satan's fandom have StockholmSyndrome.[[hottip:*:Disclaimer: [[note]]Disclaimer: Take as seriously as all TV Tropes EpilepticTrees.]]]][[/note]]]]
24th Aug '13 4:42:13 AM DoktorvonEurotrash
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* Alternatively Satan really is evil, but used Milton as an UnwittingPawn [[RootingForTheEmpre to get people]] [[DracoInLeatherPants to sympathise with him.]]

to:

* Alternatively Satan really is evil, but used Milton as an UnwittingPawn [[RootingForTheEmpre [[RootingForTheEmpire to get people]] [[DracoInLeatherPants to sympathise with him.]]
8th May '13 7:48:28 PM Peryton
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Since the hebrew gods are in popular culture flanderized into devils but the greek ones aren't, Moloch and pals payed Milton to write a book where the other pagan gods were demons as well. Unfortunately for them, Milton didn't got the memo and wrote Moloch as a demon as well...

to:

Since the hebrew gods are in popular culture flanderized into devils but the greek ones aren't, Moloch and pals payed paid Milton to write a book where the other pagan gods were demons as well. Unfortunately for them, Milton didn't got the memo and wrote Moloch as a demon as well...



* Or Milton wrote the book for him but threw in a bunch of TakeThat that Satan (nor, sadly, some of the readers) managed to pick up on.

to:

* Or Milton wrote the book for him but threw in a bunch of TakeThat that Satan (nor, sadly, (nor some of the readers) managed to pick up on.
21st Apr '13 1:22:55 AM Johnny1993
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to:

* Alternatively Satan really is evil, but used Milton as an UnwittingPawn [[RootingForTheEmpre to get people]] [[DracoInLeatherPants to sympathise with him.]]



Tell me that doesn't sound like the Court of Azathoth?

to:

Tell me that doesn't sound like the Court of Azathoth?Azathoth?
* [[FridgeHorror This raises unsettling implications]] [[CosmicHorrorStory about YHWH]]...
30th Jan '13 10:37:07 AM AlgernonX
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It would explain where they come from, and why they have a grudge against God: they're pissed at God removing their enviroment.

to:

It would explain where they come from, and why they have a grudge against God: they're pissed at God removing their enviroment.enviroment.

[[WMG: Chaos and Old Night are Azathoth and Nyarlathotep, respectively.]]

"And Chaos, ancestors of Nature, hold
Eternal anarchy, amidst the noise
Of endless wars, and by confusion stand."

Tell me that doesn't sound like the Court of Azathoth?
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=WMG.ParadiseLost