History WMG / Mother3

23rd Aug '16 5:47:56 AM tropette
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** Kumatora also seems to recognize him instantly ("Is that..."), so there's that as well.
19th Aug '16 1:37:14 PM BURGINABC
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[[spoiler: Forgetting the things that supposedly doomed them doesn't prevent them from relearning them later on their own.]]
Even if the pigmask army never arrived, they would have developed a concept of money, reinvented technology, because [[spoiler: while they can strip themselves of memories, they cannot strip themselves of their natural curiosity. They would relearn them on their own eventually because they are strictly advantageous to their current position, and if their theory that those things caused the apocalypse is correct, then the Nowhere islands would eventually join the rest of the world and fail, with no place for second chances.]]

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[[spoiler: Forgetting the things that supposedly doomed them doesn't prevent them from relearning them later on their own.]]
own.
Even if the pigmask army never arrived, they would have developed a concept of money, reinvented technology, because [[spoiler: while they can strip themselves of memories, they cannot strip themselves of their natural curiosity. They would relearn them on their own eventually because they are strictly advantageous to their current position, and if their theory that those things caused the apocalypse is correct, then the Nowhere islands would eventually join the rest of the world and fail, with no place for second chances.]]



** Wasn't the idea that the Dark Dragon would recreate [[spoiler:the entire world, not just Tazmily?]]
*** Even if the Dark Dragon does [[spoiler:revive the whole world, that just recreates the situation that is believed to cause the apocalypse in the first place. If it is filled with people who held their beliefs as before, then nothing will change, the apocalypse will still occur. If it attempts the solution that was created for Tazmily, then all of the previously criticisms still apply; given that the beliefs of those on White Ship about its source were correct, the world is doomed to begin with, as avoiding the progress of the past by forgetting it just dooms society to repeat them. Tazmily, and Lucas, know no solution to the issue at hand even if it exists.]]

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** Wasn't the idea that the Dark Dragon would recreate [[spoiler:the the entire world, not just Tazmily?]]
Tazmily?
*** Even if the Dark Dragon does [[spoiler:revive revive the whole world, that just recreates the situation that is believed to cause the apocalypse in the first place. If it is filled with people who held their beliefs as before, then nothing will change, the apocalypse will still occur. If it attempts the solution that was created for Tazmily, then all of the previously criticisms still apply; given that the beliefs of those on White Ship about its source were correct, the world is doomed to begin with, as avoiding the progress of the past by forgetting it just dooms society to repeat them. Tazmily, and Lucas, know no solution to the issue at hand even if it exists.]]



*** It seems to me that the Dark Dragon's purpose for existing is to destroy and recreate the world whenever the old world gets too screwed up. The new world probably won't be perfect, since even if Lucas is perfectly pure of heart (unlikely, some dark feelings related to the traumatic events he's been through would probably seep in), Lucas only pulled four of the needles. But the new world will probably still have the Dragon, waiting to reset things all over again in the event that people manage to break it again.

to:

*** It seems to me that the Dark Dragon's purpose for existing is to destroy and recreate the world whenever the old world gets too screwed up. The new world probably won't be perfect, since even if Lucas is perfectly pure of heart and can pass this to the dragon (unlikely, some dark feelings related to the traumatic events he's been through would probably seep in), Lucas only pulled four of the needles. But the new world will probably still have the Dragon, waiting to reset things all over again in the event that people or something else manage to break it again.
19th Aug '16 1:31:38 PM BURGINABC
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** Makes sense. [[spoiler: Lucas grieving over Claus' death]], passes on his heart's ideals onto the almighty dragon. Lucas wants all evil in the world washed away, for there to be a paradise recreated with no wars, bloodshed or conflict anymore. The Dragon decides that this is impossible. Humans already had an idyllic paradise... [[HumansAreBastards Earth, which they squandered, ruined and would do so again and again.]] The Dragon absorbs everyone into its very being, and in its belly, their life-force tethered to its own untold and incredible power. Just as it once preserved the Nowhere Islands, [[BeCarefulWhatYouWishFor it now preserves an immortal humanity]]. Meaning, its [[LivingForeverIsNoBigDeal impossible for anyone to now die]] at anyone's else hands, thus fulfilling Luca's wishes in the only possible way. Ironic... as the Dragon once lived in harmony with humans, but as time passed and as mankind grew advanced, they grew distant and indifferent. With its reawakening... [[TimeAbyss the bond is now inseparable and it and everyone are all indistinct from each other]].

[[WMG: The town was doomed from [[spoiler:its very invention.]]]]

to:

** Makes sense. [[spoiler: Lucas grieving over Claus' death]], death, passes on his heart's ideals onto the almighty dragon. Lucas wants all evil in the world washed away, for there to be a paradise recreated with no wars, bloodshed or conflict anymore. The Dragon decides that this is impossible. Humans already had an idyllic paradise... [[HumansAreBastards Earth, which they squandered, ruined and would do so again and again.]] The Dragon absorbs everyone into its very being, and in its belly, their life-force tethered to its own untold and incredible power. Just as it once preserved the Nowhere Islands, [[BeCarefulWhatYouWishFor it now preserves an immortal humanity]]. Meaning, its [[LivingForeverIsNoBigDeal impossible for anyone to now die]] at anyone's else hands, thus fulfilling Luca's wishes in the only possible way. Ironic... as the Dragon once lived in harmony with humans, but as time passed and as mankind grew advanced, they grew distant and indifferent. With its reawakening... [[TimeAbyss the bond is now inseparable and it and everyone are all indistinct from each other]].

[[WMG: The town was doomed from [[spoiler:its its very invention.]]]]]]



** If the [[spoiler:Dark Dragon recreated Tazmily village as it was, wiping memories once more, this will still eventually happen even without the Pigmask army. Early concepts of currency already existed like the Rotten Eclair in the castle, and the advancements created by the Pigmask army looked advantageous to the village at first. Any inventions created by the villagers will be treated similarly until they themselves create the problem that they were trying to avoid. ]]

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** If the [[spoiler:Dark Dark Dragon recreated Tazmily village as it was, wiping memories once more, this will still eventually happen even without the Pigmask army. Early concepts of currency already existed like the Rotten Eclair in the castle, and the advancements created by the Pigmask army looked advantageous to the village at first. Any inventions created by the villagers will be treated similarly until they themselves create the problem that they were trying to avoid. ]]



*** Except the fact that since Lucas was the one [[spoiler: pull the final needle with the intentions of reviving the world and a pure heart, rather than Claus, according to the Magypsies, the world would be reborn with no evil left present in the world in any form, and that life would shine brightly in this new existence. Given that Greed is basically what led to the destruction of the previous world, it probably could be associated with evil, therefore, feelings like Greed that could be associated with evil were probably eradicated after the world was reborn (heck, even Porky seemed to be happy and bubbly when you as the player encounter him in the epilogue/ending). So, i think its safe to say, the fact that the ending doesn't solve this problem of the reborn world possibly being re-introduced to the very thing that destroyed the old one is jossed. Unless the Magypsies were dead wrong.]]
*** It seems to me that the Dark Dragon's purpose for existing is to destroy and recreate the world whenever the old world gets too screwed up. The new world probably won't be perfect, since even if Lucas is perfectly pure of heart (unlikely, some dark feelings related to the traumatic events he's been through would probably seep in), Lucas only pulled four of the needles. But the new world will probably still have the Dragon, waiting to reset things all over again in the event that people manage to break it again.

to:

*** **** Except the fact that since Lucas was the one [[spoiler: pull the final needle with the intentions of reviving the world and a pure heart, rather than Claus, according to the Magypsies, the world would be reborn with no evil left present in the world in any form, and that life would shine brightly in this new existence. Given that Greed is basically what led to the destruction of the previous world, it probably could be associated with evil, therefore, feelings like Greed that could be associated with evil were probably eradicated after the world was reborn (heck, even Porky seemed to be happy and bubbly when you as the player encounter him in the epilogue/ending). So, i think its safe to say, the fact that the ending doesn't solve this problem of the reborn world possibly being re-introduced to the very thing that destroyed the old one is jossed. Unless the Magypsies were dead wrong.]]
***
wrong.
****
It seems to me that the Dark Dragon's purpose for existing is to destroy and recreate the world whenever the old world gets too screwed up. The new world probably won't be perfect, since even if Lucas is perfectly pure of heart (unlikely, some dark feelings related to the traumatic events he's been through would probably seep in), Lucas only pulled four of the needles. But the new world will probably still have the Dragon, waiting to reset things all over again in the event that people manage to break it again.
19th Aug '16 1:29:28 PM BURGINABC
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*** Except the fact that since Lucas was the one [[spoiler: pull the final needle with the intentions of reviving the world and a pure heart, rather than Claus, according to the Magypsies, the world would be reborn with no evil left present in the world in any form, and that life would shine brightly in this new existence. Given that Greed is basically what led to the destruction of the previous world, it probably could be associated with evil, therefore, feelings like Greed that could be associated with evil were probably eradicated after the world was reborn (heck, even Porky seemed to be happy and bubbly when you as the player encounter him in the epilogue/ending). So, i think its safe to say, the fact that the ending doesn't solve this problem of the reborn world possibly being re-introduced to the very thing that destroyed the old one is jossed. Unless the Magypsies were dead wrong.]]

to:

*** **** Except the fact that since Lucas was the one [[spoiler: pull the final needle with the intentions of reviving the world and a pure heart, rather than Claus, according to the Magypsies, the world would be reborn with no evil left present in the world in any form, and that life would shine brightly in this new existence. Given that Greed is basically what led to the destruction of the previous world, it probably could be associated with evil, therefore, feelings like Greed that could be associated with evil were probably eradicated after the world was reborn (heck, even Porky seemed to be happy and bubbly when you as the player encounter him in the epilogue/ending). So, i think its safe to say, the fact that the ending doesn't solve this problem of the reborn world possibly being re-introduced to the very thing that destroyed the old one is jossed. Unless the Magypsies were dead wrong.]]]]
**** It seems to me that the Dark Dragon's purpose for existing is to destroy and recreate the world whenever the old world gets too screwed up. The new world probably won't be perfect, since even if Lucas is perfectly pure of heart (unlikely, some dark feelings related to the traumatic events he's been through would probably seep in), Lucas only pulled four of the needles. But the new world will probably still have the Dragon, waiting to reset things all over again in the event that people manage to break it again.
19th Aug '16 11:51:14 AM BURGINABC
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* When you actually get to New Pork City itself, you find that the whole city is more or less fake. An overwhelming majority of the buildings an attractions are obviously fake plywood billboards. They only real buildings are the Empire Porky Building itself, a restaurant staffed by fake Lardna Minches, a crappy little video arcade with a fake claw machine covering up the entrance to the sewers, a movie theater that does nothing but show a clip show of Ness and friends' adventure from the original game and sell fake replicas of their weapons, and a run-down abandoned apartment building (maybe formerly to be used to house pigmasks?)As much as it tries to look like a real metropolis, it can only resemble a real big city because of all the fake filler buildings. Lampshaded by one transplanted Tazmily villager:

to:

* When you actually get to New Pork City itself, you find that the whole city is more or less fake. An overwhelming majority of the buildings an attractions are obviously fake plywood billboards. They only real buildings are the Empire Porky Building itself, itself (which, despite the height of its facade, seems to have relatively few actual floors), a restaurant staffed by fake Lardna Minches, a crappy little video arcade with a fake claw machine covering up the entrance to the sewers, a movie theater that does nothing but show a clip show of Ness and friends' adventure from the original game and sell fake replicas of their weapons, and a run-down abandoned apartment building (maybe formerly to be used to house pigmasks?)As much as it tries to look like a real metropolis, it can only resemble a real big city because of all the fake filler buildings. Lampshaded by one transplanted Tazmily villager:
19th Aug '16 12:49:47 AM BURGINABC
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Ionia mentions them having ancestors. Probably they were originally a tribe of powerful PSI-wielding humans, but when they bound the Dark Dragon using the Needles, seven of them had to bind their life force to the Needles and become semi-immortal guardians until the time came for the needles to be pulled. Then the rest of the tribe died out completely or left the island, leaving them as the only remaining Magypsies.

to:

Ionia mentions them having ancestors. Probably they were originally a tribe of powerful PSI-wielding humans, but when they bound the Dark Dragon using the Needles, seven of them had to bind their life force to the Needles and become semi-immortal guardians until the time came for the needles to be pulled. Then the rest of the tribe died out completely or left the island, leaving them as the only remaining Magypsies.Magypsies.

[[WMG: The way of thinking that was propagated by Fassad and dominant in Tazmily post-timeskip can basically be characterized as a CargoCult]]
Similar to RealLife cargo cults in the south pacific, they have rituals surrounding technologies they don't understand at all. Happy Boxes are, according to WordOfGod, not even real televisions capable of displaying a video signal conveying entertainment or propoganda, yet people stare at them in the belief that doing so will "bring them happiness". Their self-brainwashing has left them so SuperGullible that they'll believe pretty much anything they're told. The beliefs taught to them by Fassad, which represent Porky's world view, have basically become like a religion to them. This drives them to imitate a highly distorted image of late 20th century life, filtered through the mind of a greedy and sociopathic 12-year-old, even though they don't really understand any of it.
19th Aug '16 12:32:45 AM BURGINABC
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** It's only a CultClassic amongst ''American'' gamers. Amongst the Japanese, the series was always mainstream, and mainstream things aren't held in the same awe as a CultClassic since there are a lot more people aware of it besides die-hard fans, and it's necessarily going to be more common to hear criticisms of it, particularly of the "TheyChangedItNowItSucks" variety. The presence of vocal criticisms don't represent it being universally panned, but are simply an unavoidable side effect of it being a major change to a very popular series; and the vocal HateDom doesn't necessarily represent the most common opinion amongst Japanese gamers. It actually sold quite well in Japan, even if after the fact there was a vocal faction that [[RuinedForever didn't like the changes relative to previous entries in the series]]. A more likely explanation for why it didn't get localized is not due to Mother 3 doing poorly in Japan, but due to Earthbound having originally done poorly in America, and Nintendo of America didn't want to spend the money localizing it when the series had such a poor sales track record in America.

to:

** It's only a CultClassic amongst ''American'' gamers. Amongst the Japanese, the series was always mainstream, and mainstream things aren't held in the same awe as a CultClassic since there are a lot more people aware of it besides die-hard fans, and it's necessarily going to be more common to hear criticisms of it, particularly of the "TheyChangedItNowItSucks" variety. The presence of vocal criticisms don't represent it being universally panned, but are simply an unavoidable side effect of it being a major change to a very popular series; and the vocal HateDom doesn't necessarily represent the most common opinion amongst Japanese gamers. It actually sold quite well in Japan, even if after the fact there was a vocal faction that [[RuinedForever didn't like the changes relative to previous entries in the series]]. A more likely explanation for why it didn't get localized is not due to Mother 3 doing poorly in Japan, but due to Earthbound having originally done very poorly in America, America (only gaining some measure popularity as a CultClassic years after release), and Nintendo of America didn't want to spend the money localizing it when the series had such a poor sales track record in America.
19th Aug '16 12:24:36 AM BURGINABC
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to:

** It's only a CultClassic amongst ''American'' gamers. Amongst the Japanese, the series was always mainstream, and mainstream things aren't held in the same awe as a CultClassic since there are a lot more people aware of it besides die-hard fans, and it's necessarily going to be more common to hear criticisms of it, particularly of the "TheyChangedItNowItSucks" variety. The presence of vocal criticisms don't represent it being universally panned, but are simply an unavoidable side effect of it being a major change to a very popular series; and the vocal HateDom doesn't necessarily represent the most common opinion amongst Japanese gamers. It actually sold quite well in Japan, even if after the fact there was a vocal faction that [[RuinedForever didn't like the changes relative to previous entries in the series]]. A more likely explanation for why it didn't get localized is not due to Mother 3 doing poorly in Japan, but due to Earthbound having originally done poorly in America, and Nintendo of America didn't want to spend the money localizing it when the series had such a poor sales track record in America.
19th Aug '16 12:11:08 AM BURGINABC
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Whenever Lucas encounters the Masked Man there is a clear and dramatically presented moment of... something. Neither of them speaks, although arguably they're trying to. This is chalked up to both Lucas and Claus being silent protagonists at this point in the game, but wouldn't it be your natural reaction? There's evidence for this theory in two places. During the Tanetane Island hallucinations, Lucas encounters Claus a number of times, and the last time, he says: "It's me. Claus. Touch my heart. See how it beats in and out? Lucas! There's noooothing to worry about!" Pretty much everything that happens here is a character's subconscious fears, and this one happens right after Flint talks about the needles. By this time Lucas knows that the person who's been pulling the needles presumably doesn't have a heart, and he knows that the Masked Man is the one pulling the needles. Without context this quote is just a bit of generic creepiness, but it makes way more sense as Lucas putting together the evidence. Then, at the end of the game when Flint reveals that the masked man is Claus, Lucas barely reacts. If it was his first time encountering that information you'd expect ''something'', but it's only a dramatic moment for the player. As for why Lucas could attack the Masked Man before the final battle, up until that point he didn't ''know'' who the Masked Man was; there was still a chance he was wrong. Flint confirming it for him sealed the deal.

to:

Whenever Lucas encounters the Masked Man there is a clear and dramatically presented moment of... something. Neither of them speaks, although arguably they're trying to. This is chalked up to both Lucas and Claus being silent protagonists at this point in the game, but wouldn't it be your natural reaction? There's evidence for this theory in two places. During the Tanetane Island hallucinations, Lucas encounters Claus a number of times, and the last time, he says: "It's me. Claus. Touch my heart. See how it beats in and out? Lucas! There's noooothing to worry about!" Pretty much everything that happens here is a character's subconscious fears, and this one happens right after Flint talks about the needles. By this time Lucas knows that the person who's been pulling the needles presumably doesn't have a heart, and he knows that the Masked Man is the one pulling the needles. Without context this quote is just a bit of generic creepiness, but it makes way more sense as Lucas putting together the evidence. Then, at the end of the game when Flint reveals that the masked man is Claus, Lucas barely reacts. If it was his first time encountering that information you'd expect ''something'', but it's only a dramatic moment for the player. As for why Lucas could attack the Masked Man before the final battle, up until that point he didn't ''know'' who the Masked Man was; there was still a chance he was wrong. Flint confirming it for him sealed the deal.deal.

[[WMG: The Magypsies [[WasOnceAMan used to be human]]]]
Ionia mentions them having ancestors. Probably they were originally a tribe of powerful PSI-wielding humans, but when they bound the Dark Dragon using the Needles, seven of them had to bind their life force to the Needles and become semi-immortal guardians until the time came for the needles to be pulled. Then the rest of the tribe died out completely or left the island, leaving them as the only remaining Magypsies.
19th Aug '16 12:06:08 AM BURGINABC
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Added DiffLines:

* A problem with this premise is that it's explicitly stated that Porky has been using his time travel technology he stole from Giygas to steal people away from many different time periods, with most of the pigmasks and pretty much every NPC that isn't already in Tazmily at the beginning of the game not being native to the game's time period but stolen by Porky to populate his twisted little nation. So, Andonuts being around doesn't really prove a short timespan between Earthbound and Mother 3.
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