History WMG / Angel

22nd May '17 7:28:58 AM KaminoNeko
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** Assuming he was immune due to having a century's experience quashing semi-external evil influences (due to suppressing the demon) is just as consistent with mind control - more so, since the very specific nature of the control argues against a purely biological aspect.
15th May '17 8:04:48 PM nombretomado
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[[WMG: Although it begins with WMG in the source, it's fact. Angel could kill the TrueBlood vampires if they foufgt the way he fights, or if he fought the way they fight.]]

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[[WMG: Although it begins with WMG in the source, it's fact. Angel could kill the TrueBlood ''Series/TrueBlood'' vampires if they foufgt fought the way he fights, or if he fought the way they fight.]]
4th Apr '17 8:28:46 PM nombretomado
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Well he still has his soul so WTF. But other than that the original post makes sense. No matter how much better Connor's life is now, the memory wipe means that the original version him from season 4 doesn't exist anymore. He is for all intents and purposes, dead (even if his memories live on in the new Connor now). Just like many of [[PlanescapeTorment The Nameless One's]] previous incarnations.

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Well he still has his soul so WTF. But other than that the original post makes sense. No matter how much better Connor's life is now, the memory wipe means that the original version him from season 4 doesn't exist anymore. He is for all intents and purposes, dead (even if his memories live on in the new Connor now). Just like many of [[PlanescapeTorment [[VideoGame/PlanescapeTorment The Nameless One's]] previous incarnations.
2nd Apr '17 1:16:44 PM DustSnitch
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[[WMG: {{Jesus}} was one of the Powers That Be, who are in fact [[UsefulNotes/{{Gnosticism}} Aeons]]. Also, some or all of the CthuluMythos is real.]]

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[[WMG: {{Jesus}} UsefulNotes/{{Jesus}} was one of the Powers That Be, who are in fact [[UsefulNotes/{{Gnosticism}} Aeons]]. Also, some or all of the CthuluMythos is real.]]
11th Nov '16 6:39:34 AM DarkWillow
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** He didn't exactly have a terrible time. Not sure where this Faith-rape narrative comes from with some Buffy fans, but that was not her character. She uses people for sex, but she isn't a sexual predator beyond knowing what she wants and distancing herself emotionally because of past times she's been burned. As she says: 'get some, get gone'.




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*** Faith NEVER tries to rape Xander. She tries to strangle him, but not rape him. She never takes any actions that even suggest rape. That wasn't how the character was ever portrayed.



*** This is off the mark. We are shown quite clearly in 'Lies My Parents Told Me' and 'Fool for Love' that Spike is a persona built by William once he became a vampire. He hated his middle-class, repressed gentleman self and deliberately became Spike, a rough and tumble working-class personality complete with a more pronounced accent. Spike used this persona to distance himself from who he once was, and it was this persona that embraced his passionate side.



[[WMG:Skip killed Billy Blum's original guardian.]]

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[[WMG:Skip killed Billy Blum's Blim's original guardian.]]



But it makes more sense if Blum was originally guarded by someone or something else. Wolfram & Hart threatened Cordelia's life to make Angel rescue the guy. To ensure that Cordelia would be rescued, Jasmine's cult eliminated the original guardian and installed Skip in his place to ensure that Angel would succeed; thus Cordelia would not be rescued.

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But it makes more sense if Blum Blim was originally guarded by someone or something else. Wolfram & Hart threatened Cordelia's life to make Angel rescue the guy. To ensure that Cordelia would be rescued, Jasmine's cult eliminated the original guardian and installed Skip in his place to ensure that Angel would succeed; thus Cordelia would not be rescued.




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*** First, it was {{Jossed}} quite definitively. Second, why would you complicate the finale of a series by off-hand mentioning the potential effects of Angel S4? Yes, we get that the First and Jasmine essentially have the opposite plan. One intends to essentially kill as many on Earth as possible until it manifests and is able to also kill, and feel. The other intends to brainwash the entire planet into nice little calm cattle that will work together under her 'guidance' to banish war, poverty and disease, so long as she gets to eat a few of us now and then. At the very least, both are extremely evil acts; one is just more blatant while the other is the wolf protecting the sheep. If Jasmine had succeeded in doing away with the LA opposition, while the Sunnydale crew also failed, the two evil beings would quickly find themselves at war. Jasmine's brainwashed but individually weak masses vs the First's powerful but much less numerous Ubervamps...it wouldn't be pretty.




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** This WMG has already been disproven - the Powers allowed Darla to visit her son to try and stop Jasmine's birth, and Cordelia even mentions the Powers 'owed her one' when they allowed her to visit Angel and get him back on track.



** In terms of race, Jasmine would've rivalled Old Ones in terms of strength, as the Old Ones and the Powers are the same race. Jasmine even confirms this herself - the malevolent of their race become the True Demons while the benevolent ones left our reality. The only thing is, a cthonic entity is a cthonic entity whether it considers what it does good or evil. Jasmine may have been a Power, but she was also a well-intentioned extremist. She was fixated on 'saving' humanity from itself, even if that meant the complete removal of all free will.



*** If this were true, why would the Powers suddenly decide on a vision out of the blue? You're trying to say they don't care, but they cared enough to suddenly send Cordelia back and give her a vision at the end?




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*** It certainly hasn't been Jasmine all along. Skip/Jasmine simply wanted Team Angel to believe that. Jasmine believes the other Powers 'don't care' because they aren't willing to physically intervene like she is. The Powers have been making tweaks along Angel's path (a major one is bringing him back from Hell, which he specifically refers to in early Angel Season 1) in order to make him their champion. Jasmine's opportunity only came along because Angel decided to use the Trials to win a new life for Darla. Jasmine even SAYS IT herself - if that new life hadn't become available, Darla could never have been given a life and made pregnant. No, the Trials are the turning point in Jasmine's interest in Angel. She wasn't involved before, it was the Powers in general. This is supported by the fact that they are CONSTANTLY hands-off until season three, when suddenly they need Cordelia to not die from the side-effects of the visions and for her 'ascension'. Both of these events are conveniently orchestrated by Skip, one of Jasmine's minions. In all other cases, the Powers acted in very subtle ways, through their more subtle agents like Doyle and Whistler. Neither of these two were manipulating Angel, yet they knew full well who the Powers were and what was expected of them. There's simply no reason for Jasmine to want to help random people with the visions early on, and no reason why Cordelia wasn't simply gifted the visions to begin with.




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** Regular degree gained at 21 plus a Master's degree (one year) or PhD (~3) would put Fred's minimum age as an 'accomplished grad student' somewhere between 21 and 25. Also, it was quite firmly established that in demon dimensions such as 'Hell' or Quor'toth, time moves faster than it does here, not slower. Fred was probably gone for a lot longer (in Pylean time) than she was in Earth time.




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* It's actually more that Spike's personality is the same - Spike doesn't really make much distinction between 'good' and 'evil' at any point in the series. He's capable of as much with or without a soul, and never actually changes. It's not that it was a different form of magic, just that Spike is a different form of vampire. Spike is Spike, never good, never evil by conventional definitions.




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* Why would Doyle ever be a Big Bad after being such a loved character?




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** Even on THIS page, it's pretty out there to suggest this. Aside from the fact that they were the Big Bads, and routinely tried to have people assassinated, while also defending the rights of criminals AND enabling creatures like Russell Winters to eat whoever they wanted...they were stated to be demons in Illyria's time (which Wesley said was from millions of years ago until the advent of Man), which means they were lesser True Demons (Old Ones). Old Ones are definitely a big tick in the Evil column.




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** This. All non-Old One demons on Earth are hybrids of demons and humans. They probably had a lot of human in them, as they were human-sized and humanoid (two arms, two legs etc). The clue to a demon's 'purity' is its physical size, as Old Ones were huge creatures. The closer to the Old Ones and the less human ancestry is in the demon, the bigger it is. Also, ew.
5th Oct '16 6:39:51 AM Origamidragons
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*** This could be considered rape of Buffy, too, since it was her body that was being used without her consent. Also, Faith attempted to rape and murder Xander and would have had Angel not stepped in.
24th Sep '16 7:44:19 PM ApeAccount
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Added DiffLines:

[[WMG: The season five version of the conduit is actually Semkhet.]]

In season four it's revealed that the original version of the conduit for Wolfram and Hart in the White Room is actually Mesektet, a member of the Ra-tet. This version was eventually killed by The Beast and then replaced by another version who took the form of a black leopard and then of Gunn himself.

Basically, my theory is that when the sun was restored the Ra-tet were resurrected (being linked to it in some way). Mesektet didn't want to return so Wolfram and Hart then chose to hire the other evil member of the Ra-tet.

Semkhet normally appeared as a skinless sabretooth tiger so we know has a fondness for cats which would fit with the whole leopard thing. Also given the other members of the Ra-tet seemed capable of human appearance it's likely they had the ability to change appearance which would fit.
4th Sep '16 10:25:28 PM timemonkey
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** Faith absolutely raped Riley. She stole Buffy's body and took her boyfriend for a joyride.
14th May '16 9:44:12 PM nombretomado
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[[spoiler:Instead of giving Connor a real happy life, Wolfram and Hart instead gave him a life that only made him appear successful and happy]] This life is the one of Pete Campbell and is depicted on the TV show {{MadMen}}

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[[spoiler:Instead of giving Connor a real happy life, Wolfram and Hart instead gave him a life that only made him appear successful and happy]] This life is the one of Pete Campbell and is depicted on the TV show {{MadMen}}
''Series/MadMen''.
9th Feb '16 10:02:05 PM Tuvok
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** [[TheChosenOne Angel part of the chosen one]] is confirmed in the canonical continuation where he is responsible for almost destroying the World , saving the World and changing the World. Spike not so much.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=WMG.Angel