History WMG / Angel

11th Nov '16 6:39:34 AM DarkWillow
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** He didn't exactly have a terrible time. Not sure where this Faith-rape narrative comes from with some Buffy fans, but that was not her character. She uses people for sex, but she isn't a sexual predator beyond knowing what she wants and distancing herself emotionally because of past times she's been burned. As she says: 'get some, get gone'.




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*** Faith NEVER tries to rape Xander. She tries to strangle him, but not rape him. She never takes any actions that even suggest rape. That wasn't how the character was ever portrayed.



*** This is off the mark. We are shown quite clearly in 'Lies My Parents Told Me' and 'Fool for Love' that Spike is a persona built by William once he became a vampire. He hated his middle-class, repressed gentleman self and deliberately became Spike, a rough and tumble working-class personality complete with a more pronounced accent. Spike used this persona to distance himself from who he once was, and it was this persona that embraced his passionate side.



[[WMG:Skip killed Billy Blum's original guardian.]]

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[[WMG:Skip killed Billy Blum's Blim's original guardian.]]



But it makes more sense if Blum was originally guarded by someone or something else. Wolfram & Hart threatened Cordelia's life to make Angel rescue the guy. To ensure that Cordelia would be rescued, Jasmine's cult eliminated the original guardian and installed Skip in his place to ensure that Angel would succeed; thus Cordelia would not be rescued.

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But it makes more sense if Blum Blim was originally guarded by someone or something else. Wolfram & Hart threatened Cordelia's life to make Angel rescue the guy. To ensure that Cordelia would be rescued, Jasmine's cult eliminated the original guardian and installed Skip in his place to ensure that Angel would succeed; thus Cordelia would not be rescued.




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*** First, it was {{Jossed}} quite definitively. Second, why would you complicate the finale of a series by off-hand mentioning the potential effects of Angel S4? Yes, we get that the First and Jasmine essentially have the opposite plan. One intends to essentially kill as many on Earth as possible until it manifests and is able to also kill, and feel. The other intends to brainwash the entire planet into nice little calm cattle that will work together under her 'guidance' to banish war, poverty and disease, so long as she gets to eat a few of us now and then. At the very least, both are extremely evil acts; one is just more blatant while the other is the wolf protecting the sheep. If Jasmine had succeeded in doing away with the LA opposition, while the Sunnydale crew also failed, the two evil beings would quickly find themselves at war. Jasmine's brainwashed but individually weak masses vs the First's powerful but much less numerous Ubervamps...it wouldn't be pretty.




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** This WMG has already been disproven - the Powers allowed Darla to visit her son to try and stop Jasmine's birth, and Cordelia even mentions the Powers 'owed her one' when they allowed her to visit Angel and get him back on track.



** In terms of race, Jasmine would've rivalled Old Ones in terms of strength, as the Old Ones and the Powers are the same race. Jasmine even confirms this herself - the malevolent of their race become the True Demons while the benevolent ones left our reality. The only thing is, a cthonic entity is a cthonic entity whether it considers what it does good or evil. Jasmine may have been a Power, but she was also a well-intentioned extremist. She was fixated on 'saving' humanity from itself, even if that meant the complete removal of all free will.



*** If this were true, why would the Powers suddenly decide on a vision out of the blue? You're trying to say they don't care, but they cared enough to suddenly send Cordelia back and give her a vision at the end?




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*** It certainly hasn't been Jasmine all along. Skip/Jasmine simply wanted Team Angel to believe that. Jasmine believes the other Powers 'don't care' because they aren't willing to physically intervene like she is. The Powers have been making tweaks along Angel's path (a major one is bringing him back from Hell, which he specifically refers to in early Angel Season 1) in order to make him their champion. Jasmine's opportunity only came along because Angel decided to use the Trials to win a new life for Darla. Jasmine even SAYS IT herself - if that new life hadn't become available, Darla could never have been given a life and made pregnant. No, the Trials are the turning point in Jasmine's interest in Angel. She wasn't involved before, it was the Powers in general. This is supported by the fact that they are CONSTANTLY hands-off until season three, when suddenly they need Cordelia to not die from the side-effects of the visions and for her 'ascension'. Both of these events are conveniently orchestrated by Skip, one of Jasmine's minions. In all other cases, the Powers acted in very subtle ways, through their more subtle agents like Doyle and Whistler. Neither of these two were manipulating Angel, yet they knew full well who the Powers were and what was expected of them. There's simply no reason for Jasmine to want to help random people with the visions early on, and no reason why Cordelia wasn't simply gifted the visions to begin with.




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** Regular degree gained at 21 plus a Master's degree (one year) or PhD (~3) would put Fred's minimum age as an 'accomplished grad student' somewhere between 21 and 25. Also, it was quite firmly established that in demon dimensions such as 'Hell' or Quor'toth, time moves faster than it does here, not slower. Fred was probably gone for a lot longer (in Pylean time) than she was in Earth time.




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* It's actually more that Spike's personality is the same - Spike doesn't really make much distinction between 'good' and 'evil' at any point in the series. He's capable of as much with or without a soul, and never actually changes. It's not that it was a different form of magic, just that Spike is a different form of vampire. Spike is Spike, never good, never evil by conventional definitions.




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* Why would Doyle ever be a Big Bad after being such a loved character?




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** Even on THIS page, it's pretty out there to suggest this. Aside from the fact that they were the Big Bads, and routinely tried to have people assassinated, while also defending the rights of criminals AND enabling creatures like Russell Winters to eat whoever they wanted...they were stated to be demons in Illyria's time (which Wesley said was from millions of years ago until the advent of Man), which means they were lesser True Demons (Old Ones). Old Ones are definitely a big tick in the Evil column.




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** This. All non-Old One demons on Earth are hybrids of demons and humans. They probably had a lot of human in them, as they were human-sized and humanoid (two arms, two legs etc). The clue to a demon's 'purity' is its physical size, as Old Ones were huge creatures. The closer to the Old Ones and the less human ancestry is in the demon, the bigger it is. Also, ew.
5th Oct '16 6:39:51 AM Origamidragons
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*** This could be considered rape of Buffy, too, since it was her body that was being used without her consent. Also, Faith attempted to rape and murder Xander and would have had Angel not stepped in.
24th Sep '16 7:44:19 PM ApeAccount
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Added DiffLines:

[[WMG: The season five version of the conduit is actually Semkhet.]]

In season four it's revealed that the original version of the conduit for Wolfram and Hart in the White Room is actually Mesektet, a member of the Ra-tet. This version was eventually killed by The Beast and then replaced by another version who took the form of a black leopard and then of Gunn himself.

Basically, my theory is that when the sun was restored the Ra-tet were resurrected (being linked to it in some way). Mesektet didn't want to return so Wolfram and Hart then chose to hire the other evil member of the Ra-tet.

Semkhet normally appeared as a skinless sabretooth tiger so we know has a fondness for cats which would fit with the whole leopard thing. Also given the other members of the Ra-tet seemed capable of human appearance it's likely they had the ability to change appearance which would fit.
4th Sep '16 10:25:28 PM timemonkey
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** Faith absolutely raped Riley. She stole Buffy's body and took her boyfriend for a joyride.
14th May '16 9:44:12 PM nombretomado
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[[spoiler:Instead of giving Connor a real happy life, Wolfram and Hart instead gave him a life that only made him appear successful and happy]] This life is the one of Pete Campbell and is depicted on the TV show {{MadMen}}

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[[spoiler:Instead of giving Connor a real happy life, Wolfram and Hart instead gave him a life that only made him appear successful and happy]] This life is the one of Pete Campbell and is depicted on the TV show {{MadMen}}
''Series/MadMen''.
9th Feb '16 10:02:05 PM Tuvok
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** [[TheChosenOne Angel part of the chosen one]] is confirmed in the canonical continuation where he is responsible for almost destroying the World , saving the World and changing the World. Spike not so much.
9th Feb '16 9:58:03 PM Tuvok
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*** The canoical series helps clear it up and cements [[TheChosenOne Angels part, as Angel]] is responsible for almost destroying the World. For saving the World and changing the World in relation to magic and the supernatural. Spike not so much.
29th Jan '16 10:17:39 PM Niria
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** ...Which means Joss wasn't writing it with that in mind. It's still the most logical interpretation of the season on both series, even though WordOfGod confirms that was not the writers' intent. At the very least if no great plan (such as the empowering of all the Potentials, which was what happened) had been found to stop The First from taking over the world, stopping Jasmine would have clearly been the bad decision. Jasmine's UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans was flawed, and most people would probably prefer free will even with the evil that comes with it; but if the other option is "all humans are killed by The First and its minions", it's at the very least the less awful option.
29th Jan '16 6:20:09 AM DarkWillow
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*** The Beast killed the LA staff. The building was intact and new staff can always be hired. W&H is a huge organisation with many branches in many countries, this was easily within their capabilities.



** [[http://elisi.livejournal.com/337501.html Have fun!]]
** All of these reasons are awesome. And Angel and Spike's mouths would hang open when they saw him. And then he'd [[KissKissSlap kiss and then punch Spike]], who would be completely confused.
*** ... happened [[Recap/TorchwoodS2E1KissKissBangBang here]], too.
* The two times when we know for sure that the Immortal is in Rome are also times when Jack's whereabouts are more or less undefined (the 19th-century one would be sometime after he jumped back at the end of series 1 ''Series/DoctorWho'', the 21st-century one is slightly before series 1 of ''Series/{{Torchwood}}''.
* Possibly he took the name "The Immortal" because it sounds like a Time-Lord-ish name and he's trying to attract the Doctor's attention.
* The Immortal is said to dislike magic, which corresponds well with Jack's technophilia.
* Jack was fond of Italy in his days as a rogue Time Agent. The Immortal loves Italy but was gone for 350 years. Interesting...
* The CEO of Wolfram & Hart's Roman branch claimed that she had many dealings with him in the past, which would make sense, since Jack would have to have liaisons with such offices if he had to grab alien technology from other countries while running Series/{{Torchwood}} Three.
* Much about the Immortal is a lie crafted by the good guy Slayers. And the info conveyed by Wolfram and Hart? Heck, they lie as a matter of course.
** What are you talking about? Angel and Spike knew about him personally.
*** In the season eight comics Buffy says there are a few look alikes of hers running about and doing stuff to try to fool her enemies about her whereabouts. One of them is in Italy and is apparently getting very close to some Immortal guy. Buffy doesn't know why Andrew suggested this or why he finds it funny. However just because it's not Buffy dating the immortal doesn't mean a) The Immortal isn't real and b) that the Immortal isn't Jack.
*** True. Also, Andrew finds it funny because he's a fan of ''Doctor Who'' (he said that in ''[[Series/BuffyTheVampireSlayer BtVS]]'' season 6).



* As a complimentary theory, Spike is Captain John Hart.

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* As a complimentary theory, Spike is Captain John Hart.



* The Powers That Be are ''Creator/JossWhedon''. They think that TrueArtIsAngsty, and ''the world'' is their artwork.




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*** How about two fictional universes that aren't connected in any way...being completely unconnected?



** ^ This. One of the things one has to remember when talking about Angelus reputation is that it is not about the body counts, it is about the way those bodies ended up. He likes to focus on one person at a time and torture their minds in the way he determines is best before moving on to the final kill or worse turning them. See Drucilla. I always got the impression in Buffy Season 2 that Angel was just taking his time, but you notice as he starts to realize the scoobies are closing in, he picks up the pace some. Just a bit too late. In Angel season 4, he knows his time is limited due to the reasons he was ''released'' so he doesn't have time to bring his "A" Game. That and of course the demons and other vampires after the beast arrives. Had he been given time (and the show been a very different kind of show) we might have seen him really go all out on Faith. And I imagine turning her would have been just the beginning of some potential plan of doom. Probably involving getting back at ''that bitch'' Buffy that Angel loved.

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** ^ This. One of the things one has to remember when talking about Angelus reputation is that it is not about the body counts, it is about the way those bodies ended up. He likes to focus on one person at a time and torture their minds in the way he determines is best before moving on to the final kill or worse turning them. See Drucilla.Drusilla. I always got the impression in Buffy Season 2 that Angel was just taking his time, but you notice as he starts to realize the scoobies are closing in, he picks up the pace some. Just a bit too late. In Angel season 4, he knows his time is limited due to the reasons he was ''released'' so he doesn't have time to bring his "A" Game. That and of course the demons and other vampires after the beast arrives. Had he been given time (and the show been a very different kind of show) we might have seen him really go all out on Faith. And I imagine turning her would have been just the beginning of some potential plan of doom. Probably involving getting back at ''that bitch'' Buffy that Angel loved.




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** In addition, the ordinary security guards performed on-the-spot executions if the Special Projects lead deemed it a requirement. At W&H, you are summarily KILLED if they find out you're going to leave for a rival firm and take clients with you. Not just sacked - shot in the head.


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*** They aren't stronger than normal vampires. Angelus and Darla are old, have been about a while and therefore have had time to grow in strength/ability. Spike from day one sets out to make himself more than he was, picks fights whenever he can, and tends to win. So it's no surprise he's very dangerous. Drusilla is a little older than Spike and at full strength, doesn't quite have the same fighting ability he does. She's also not ever shown to be particularly strong.


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13th Nov '15 6:53:55 AM DarkWillow
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* It's still pure speculation with zero evidence. Darla was 388 when dusted (sired in 1609 - stated onscreen in an Angel episode). This is actually fairly old for a vampire, because Whedon let American views of what is 'old' colour his work (to most people in the US, anything longer than 100 years ago is ancient, whereas I have the ruins of a 2,000 year-old Roman fort visible from my house). She wasn't surprised to see the Master because she was near death and actually thought he WAS Death himself. Vampires aren't the inverse of the people they are in life (virtually every vampire in the show disproves this claim), but even if they were, this isn't evidence to support the claim. She also isn't any stronger compared to normal vampires - Buffy bests her fairly easily in 'Welcome to the Hellmouth', and Buffy at that point wasn't a hugely experienced Slayer (she wasn't a noob, but she was relatively new to the gig).



** This. The PTB and the Old Ones are effectively just the same race separated by outlook (malevolence vs peaceful) and vast tracts of time.



* Ouch.

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* Ouch.
Possible, but the simpler answer is that Skip was both. He was a servant of the PTB, but was also a minion of Jasmine and accepted her orders, thus making him something of a Jasmine Fifth Columnist.




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** That is essentially how Jasmine justified everything she did: it's all ends justifies the means, because once she's born she will make war, famine and disease go away (at the cost of needing to eat people every now and then). She's a well-intentioned extremist that is more interested in humanity as a race, not how many crimes she commits to achieve her goals.




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** The simplest answer is still the one given on-screen: they woke up the dormant Jasmine when they restored everyone's memories in 'Spin the Bottle.'



* Interesting idea, but {{Jossed}} by the DVD commentary.
** ...Which means Joss wasn't writing it with that in mind. It's still the most logical interpretation of the season on both series. It also means that at the very least if no great plan (such as the empowering of all the Potentials, which was what happened) had been found to stop The First from taking over the world, stopping Jasmine would have clearly been the bad decision. Jasmine's UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans was flawed, and most people would probably prefer free will even with the evil that comes with it; but if the other option is "all humans are killed by The First and its minions", it's at the very least the less awful option.

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* Interesting idea, but {{Jossed}} by the DVD commentary.
** ...Which means Joss wasn't writing it with
commentary. He confirms that in mind. It's still it was the most logical interpretation of the season on both series. It also means that at the very least if no great plan (such as the empowering of all the Potentials, which was what happened) had been found other Powers trying desperately to stop The First from taking over the world, stopping Jasmine would have clearly been the bad decision. Jasmine's UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans was flawed, and most people would probably prefer free will even with birth by allowing the evil that comes with it; but if the other option is "all humans are killed visitation by The First and its minions", it's at the very least the less awful option.
Darla.
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