History WMG / Angel

14th May '16 9:44:12 PM nombretomado
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[[spoiler:Instead of giving Connor a real happy life, Wolfram and Hart instead gave him a life that only made him appear successful and happy]] This life is the one of Pete Campbell and is depicted on the TV show {{MadMen}}

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[[spoiler:Instead of giving Connor a real happy life, Wolfram and Hart instead gave him a life that only made him appear successful and happy]] This life is the one of Pete Campbell and is depicted on the TV show {{MadMen}}
''Series/MadMen''.
9th Feb '16 10:02:05 PM Tuvok
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** [[TheChosenOne Angel part of the chosen one]] is confirmed in the canonical continuation where he is responsible for almost destroying the World , saving the World and changing the World. Spike not so much.
9th Feb '16 9:58:03 PM Tuvok
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*** The canoical series helps clear it up and cements [[TheChosenOne Angels part, as Angel]] is responsible for almost destroying the World. For saving the World and changing the World in relation to magic and the supernatural. Spike not so much.
29th Jan '16 10:17:39 PM Niria
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** ...Which means Joss wasn't writing it with that in mind. It's still the most logical interpretation of the season on both series, even though WordOfGod confirms that was not the writers' intent. At the very least if no great plan (such as the empowering of all the Potentials, which was what happened) had been found to stop The First from taking over the world, stopping Jasmine would have clearly been the bad decision. Jasmine's UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans was flawed, and most people would probably prefer free will even with the evil that comes with it; but if the other option is "all humans are killed by The First and its minions", it's at the very least the less awful option.
29th Jan '16 6:20:09 AM DarkWillow
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*** The Beast killed the LA staff. The building was intact and new staff can always be hired. W&H is a huge organisation with many branches in many countries, this was easily within their capabilities.



** [[http://elisi.livejournal.com/337501.html Have fun!]]
** All of these reasons are awesome. And Angel and Spike's mouths would hang open when they saw him. And then he'd [[KissKissSlap kiss and then punch Spike]], who would be completely confused.
*** ... happened [[Recap/TorchwoodS2E1KissKissBangBang here]], too.
* The two times when we know for sure that the Immortal is in Rome are also times when Jack's whereabouts are more or less undefined (the 19th-century one would be sometime after he jumped back at the end of series 1 ''Series/DoctorWho'', the 21st-century one is slightly before series 1 of ''Series/{{Torchwood}}''.
* Possibly he took the name "The Immortal" because it sounds like a Time-Lord-ish name and he's trying to attract the Doctor's attention.
* The Immortal is said to dislike magic, which corresponds well with Jack's technophilia.
* Jack was fond of Italy in his days as a rogue Time Agent. The Immortal loves Italy but was gone for 350 years. Interesting...
* The CEO of Wolfram & Hart's Roman branch claimed that she had many dealings with him in the past, which would make sense, since Jack would have to have liaisons with such offices if he had to grab alien technology from other countries while running Series/{{Torchwood}} Three.
* Much about the Immortal is a lie crafted by the good guy Slayers. And the info conveyed by Wolfram and Hart? Heck, they lie as a matter of course.
** What are you talking about? Angel and Spike knew about him personally.
*** In the season eight comics Buffy says there are a few look alikes of hers running about and doing stuff to try to fool her enemies about her whereabouts. One of them is in Italy and is apparently getting very close to some Immortal guy. Buffy doesn't know why Andrew suggested this or why he finds it funny. However just because it's not Buffy dating the immortal doesn't mean a) The Immortal isn't real and b) that the Immortal isn't Jack.
*** True. Also, Andrew finds it funny because he's a fan of ''Doctor Who'' (he said that in ''[[Series/BuffyTheVampireSlayer BtVS]]'' season 6).



* As a complimentary theory, Spike is Captain John Hart.

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* As a complimentary theory, Spike is Captain John Hart.



* The Powers That Be are ''Creator/JossWhedon''. They think that TrueArtIsAngsty, and ''the world'' is their artwork.




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*** How about two fictional universes that aren't connected in any way...being completely unconnected?



** ^ This. One of the things one has to remember when talking about Angelus reputation is that it is not about the body counts, it is about the way those bodies ended up. He likes to focus on one person at a time and torture their minds in the way he determines is best before moving on to the final kill or worse turning them. See Drucilla. I always got the impression in Buffy Season 2 that Angel was just taking his time, but you notice as he starts to realize the scoobies are closing in, he picks up the pace some. Just a bit too late. In Angel season 4, he knows his time is limited due to the reasons he was ''released'' so he doesn't have time to bring his "A" Game. That and of course the demons and other vampires after the beast arrives. Had he been given time (and the show been a very different kind of show) we might have seen him really go all out on Faith. And I imagine turning her would have been just the beginning of some potential plan of doom. Probably involving getting back at ''that bitch'' Buffy that Angel loved.

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** ^ This. One of the things one has to remember when talking about Angelus reputation is that it is not about the body counts, it is about the way those bodies ended up. He likes to focus on one person at a time and torture their minds in the way he determines is best before moving on to the final kill or worse turning them. See Drucilla.Drusilla. I always got the impression in Buffy Season 2 that Angel was just taking his time, but you notice as he starts to realize the scoobies are closing in, he picks up the pace some. Just a bit too late. In Angel season 4, he knows his time is limited due to the reasons he was ''released'' so he doesn't have time to bring his "A" Game. That and of course the demons and other vampires after the beast arrives. Had he been given time (and the show been a very different kind of show) we might have seen him really go all out on Faith. And I imagine turning her would have been just the beginning of some potential plan of doom. Probably involving getting back at ''that bitch'' Buffy that Angel loved.




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** In addition, the ordinary security guards performed on-the-spot executions if the Special Projects lead deemed it a requirement. At W&H, you are summarily KILLED if they find out you're going to leave for a rival firm and take clients with you. Not just sacked - shot in the head.


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*** They aren't stronger than normal vampires. Angelus and Darla are old, have been about a while and therefore have had time to grow in strength/ability. Spike from day one sets out to make himself more than he was, picks fights whenever he can, and tends to win. So it's no surprise he's very dangerous. Drusilla is a little older than Spike and at full strength, doesn't quite have the same fighting ability he does. She's also not ever shown to be particularly strong.


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13th Nov '15 6:53:55 AM DarkWillow
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* It's still pure speculation with zero evidence. Darla was 388 when dusted (sired in 1609 - stated onscreen in an Angel episode). This is actually fairly old for a vampire, because Whedon let American views of what is 'old' colour his work (to most people in the US, anything longer than 100 years ago is ancient, whereas I have the ruins of a 2,000 year-old Roman fort visible from my house). She wasn't surprised to see the Master because she was near death and actually thought he WAS Death himself. Vampires aren't the inverse of the people they are in life (virtually every vampire in the show disproves this claim), but even if they were, this isn't evidence to support the claim. She also isn't any stronger compared to normal vampires - Buffy bests her fairly easily in 'Welcome to the Hellmouth', and Buffy at that point wasn't a hugely experienced Slayer (she wasn't a noob, but she was relatively new to the gig).



** This. The PTB and the Old Ones are effectively just the same race separated by outlook (malevolence vs peaceful) and vast tracts of time.



* Ouch.

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* Ouch.
Possible, but the simpler answer is that Skip was both. He was a servant of the PTB, but was also a minion of Jasmine and accepted her orders, thus making him something of a Jasmine Fifth Columnist.




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** That is essentially how Jasmine justified everything she did: it's all ends justifies the means, because once she's born she will make war, famine and disease go away (at the cost of needing to eat people every now and then). She's a well-intentioned extremist that is more interested in humanity as a race, not how many crimes she commits to achieve her goals.




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** The simplest answer is still the one given on-screen: they woke up the dormant Jasmine when they restored everyone's memories in 'Spin the Bottle.'



* Interesting idea, but {{Jossed}} by the DVD commentary.
** ...Which means Joss wasn't writing it with that in mind. It's still the most logical interpretation of the season on both series. It also means that at the very least if no great plan (such as the empowering of all the Potentials, which was what happened) had been found to stop The First from taking over the world, stopping Jasmine would have clearly been the bad decision. Jasmine's UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans was flawed, and most people would probably prefer free will even with the evil that comes with it; but if the other option is "all humans are killed by The First and its minions", it's at the very least the less awful option.

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* Interesting idea, but {{Jossed}} by the DVD commentary.
** ...Which means Joss wasn't writing it with
commentary. He confirms that in mind. It's still it was the most logical interpretation of the season on both series. It also means that at the very least if no great plan (such as the empowering of all the Potentials, which was what happened) had been found other Powers trying desperately to stop The First from taking over the world, stopping Jasmine would have clearly been the bad decision. Jasmine's UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans was flawed, and most people would probably prefer free will even with birth by allowing the evil that comes with it; but if the other option is "all humans are killed visitation by The First and its minions", it's at the very least the less awful option.
Darla.
13th Nov '15 6:23:20 AM DarkWillow
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* Faith never raped anyone while in Sunnydale - this is pure speculation. Some may refer to her tryst with Xander, but he was a (very) willing participant and she only turned violent post-coitus.




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* This is flatly untrue. The Buffyverse has never been linked to the 'Whoniverse' officially/canonically.




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*** Everything he did post his second soul restore sadly was in character for Angel - he is a guy trying to do his best to fight the good fight against harder and harder challenges. It's unsurprising he had a number of slips along the way. There's certainly nothing in canon that suggests he has 'half a soul'.



Further evidence for the partners being human is the revealation that their Home Office is on Earth and not some hell dimension, their "children", Hamilton and Eve, are both humans and Holland having WRH taking responsibility from everything to the first murder to the Inquisition and Khmer Rouge. I think more likely the Wolf Ram Hart are sorcerers like the ones who created the first slayer except dedicated towards corruption and evil.

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Further evidence for the partners being human is the revealation revelation that their Home Office is on Earth and not some hell dimension, their "children", Hamilton and Eve, are both humans and Holland having WRH taking responsibility from everything to the first murder to the Inquisition and Khmer Rouge. I think more likely the Wolf Ram Hart are sorcerers like the ones who created the first slayer except dedicated towards corruption and evil.



** As has been revealed in canon (including the official canonical comics), the Wolf, the Ram and the Hart were indeed lesser demons in the Primordium Age and have built their power over millions of years.



*** A silly writer/cartoonist nod - this is like saying Star Wars is part of Star Trek because a clever FX guy put a Millenium Falcon into a battle (the Borg battle in First Contact). Neither make sense at all.




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* The Powers don't take action directly because when one of them did, they 'helped' by attempting to brainwash the entire world while eating small numbers of people. They are afraid that by interfering too much, they will become too much like their opposite numbers, the Old Ones (the Powers and the Old Ones were once the same race in Earth's youth - the Powers left because the malevolent ones became demons).




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** This is speculation. Jasmine specifically mentions that her plans and opportunity only became possible when Angel won a second life for Darla in 'The Trials' and was therefore able to ensure she was impregnated in 'Reprise'. There's no evidence to suggest her claims (that she was manipulating their lives all along) are actually true - she wants them to give in to the inevitability of her rule and accept their fate. She wants them to believe that free will is an illusion so that they will allow her to take it anyway.
22nd Oct '15 9:59:45 AM ChaoticNovelist
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A running theme through the first season is Cordelia getting freaked out and pushy isn't getting enough clients, which seemed not to faze Angel in the slightest. He also didn't think anything of buying an entire abandoned hotel or an entire wardrobe of designer clothes for Cordy. It's likely he looted a lot of money in his rampage through Europe days, stored it, and [[CompoundInterestTimeTravelGambit let it collect interest]].
* Alternatively, he's stolen a lot from dead demons.

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A running theme through the first season is Cordelia getting freaked out and pushy isn't getting enough clients, which seemed not to faze Angel in the slightest. He also didn't think anything of buying an entire abandoned hotel or an entire wardrobe of designer clothes for Cordy. It's likely he looted a lot of money in his rampage through Europe days, stored it, and [[CompoundInterestTimeTravelGambit let it collect interest]].
*
interest]]. Alternatively, he's stolen a lot from dead demons.
demons. Either way, he's rich.



* Angelus always seems to talk a bigger game than he plays. He killed [[SacrificialLamb Jenny Calender]] and some [[RedShirt nameless students]] in Series/BuffyTheVampireSlayer, but that's the extent of his successful crimes in his first appearance. He makes lots of threats [[HannibalLecture while he's in a cage]] (including [[AttemptedRape one threat]] toward Fred that the writers probably wouldn't have dared state so bluntly back in S2 Buffy); but once he's out, he doesn't do any permanent damage. This is probably more the result of StatusQuoIsGod than a reflection on Angelus, but it does make his onscreen rampages tame compared to his reputation.

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* Angelus always seems to talk a bigger game than he plays. He killed [[SacrificialLamb Jenny Calender]] and some [[RedShirt nameless students]] in Series/BuffyTheVampireSlayer, but that's the extent of his successful crimes in his first appearance. [[HannibalLecture He makes lots of threats [[HannibalLecture while he's in a cage]] (including [[AttemptedRape one threat]] toward Fred that the writers probably wouldn't have dared state so bluntly back in S2 Buffy); but once he's out, he doesn't do any permanent damage. This is probably more the result of StatusQuoIsGod than a reflection on Angelus, but it does make his onscreen rampages tame compared to his reputation.
9th Oct '15 7:24:43 PM Niria
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* I think that Jasmine had control of Cordy from the moment Cordy reappeared at the end of "The House Always Wins." However, she lacked Cordy's memories, and without them she couldn't sufficiently impersonate her; so she had to blame that on amnesia and thus manipulate Team Angel into doing a spell to "restore" them. Note that Connor impregnating Cordy was key to her plan, and she was already kind of working on Connor pre-memory-restoration.



[[WMG: When Conner has a vision of his mother in Angel "Inside Out", it was actually the First.]]

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[[WMG: When Conner Connor has a vision of his mother in Angel "Inside Out", it was actually the First.]]




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** ...Which means Joss wasn't writing it with that in mind. It's still the most logical interpretation of the season on both series. It also means that at the very least if no great plan (such as the empowering of all the Potentials, which was what happened) had been found to stop The First from taking over the world, stopping Jasmine would have clearly been the bad decision. Jasmine's UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans was flawed, and most people would probably prefer free will even with the evil that comes with it; but if the other option is "all humans are killed by The First and its minions", it's at the very least the less awful option.
9th Oct '15 7:07:46 PM Niria
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***** ...And the brain that Angel and Angelus share. One has to assume that the reason that vampires are usually somewhat similar to the person they were is that the soul is the conscience/etc., which changes but the brain is the same. But I like the theory. The Angel before he ''first'' lost his soul-- that could easily have been Liam's soul. He was lazy and usually provided info rather than actively fight. Upon ''Buffy'' Season 3 and then into his own series, Angel was much more proactive and willing to get hands-on involved. Then, as people have noted, after Willow restored Angel's soul in ''Angel'' Season 4 (into the series' final TV season), he was grittier and more willing to use more brutal tactics if the end was good.
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