History UsefulNotes / ThirtyYearsWar

1st Sep '17 4:07:26 PM nombretomado
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* The ''Literature/SixteenThirtyTwo'' series by Creator/EricFlint has a 20th century West Virginia coal mining town dropped into the middle of the conflict, in the middle of [[AllTheLittleGermanies the Germanies]].

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* The ''Literature/SixteenThirtyTwo'' series by Creator/EricFlint has a 20th century West Virginia coal mining town dropped into the middle of the conflict, in the middle of [[AllTheLittleGermanies [[UsefulNotes/AllTheLittleGermanies the Germanies]].
25th Aug '17 6:30:02 PM nombretomado
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Indeed, 'sovereignty' is the real meaning of ''cuius regio, eius religio'': while religious affairs were in themselves important, they also served as a stand-in for the more general displeasure of the German princes at the constant interference of the Emperor and of rulers across Europe at the constant interference of UsefulNotes/ThePope (it's no coincidence that the Pope tends to drop out of European history textbooks sometime in the 17th century). The Westphalian system continued unchallenged among Western powers until the 20th century, when a few theoreticians attempted to make modifications in response to the atrocities of UsefulNotes/WorldWarII and the nasty business after TheGreatPoliticsMessUp (particularly UsefulNotes/TheYugoslavWars). Nevertheless, the modern system of states is more or less Westphalian, and several states (particularly [[RedChina China]] and to a lesser extent [[TheNewRussia Russia]]) still insist on it.

to:

Indeed, 'sovereignty' is the real meaning of ''cuius regio, eius religio'': while religious affairs were in themselves important, they also served as a stand-in for the more general displeasure of the German princes at the constant interference of the Emperor and of rulers across Europe at the constant interference of UsefulNotes/ThePope (it's no coincidence that the Pope tends to drop out of European history textbooks sometime in the 17th century). The Westphalian system continued unchallenged among Western powers until the 20th century, when a few theoreticians attempted to make modifications in response to the atrocities of UsefulNotes/WorldWarII and the nasty business after TheGreatPoliticsMessUp (particularly UsefulNotes/TheYugoslavWars). Nevertheless, the modern system of states is more or less Westphalian, and several states (particularly [[RedChina China]] and to a lesser extent [[TheNewRussia [[UsefulNotes/TheNewRussia Russia]]) still insist on it.
20th Aug '17 10:59:51 AM nombretomado
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* While it's primarily an XMeetsY crossover between [[Literature/TheThreeMusketeers Musketeers]] and [[OurMonstersAreDifferent various supernatural elements]], ''All For One: Regime Diabolique'' has the war as a major backdrop and it is entirely possible for characters to be caught up in it.

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* While it's primarily an XMeetsY JustForFun/XMeetsY crossover between [[Literature/TheThreeMusketeers Musketeers]] and [[OurMonstersAreDifferent various supernatural elements]], ''All For One: Regime Diabolique'' has the war as a major backdrop and it is entirely possible for characters to be caught up in it.
15th Jul '17 3:11:54 PM nombretomado
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* German 1910 historical novel ''Der Wehrwolf'' (''The Warwolf'') by Hermann Löns, a revenge-fantasy about North-German peasants who, after having been plundered and brutalized repeatedly by occupying troops, become guerrillas who routinely ambush and massacre foraging soldiers. The book is notorious for being a favorite of the Nazis; it directly inspired the terrorist ''Werwolf'' guerrillas at the end of WorldWarII. From the other wiki:

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* German 1910 historical novel ''Der Wehrwolf'' (''The Warwolf'') by Hermann Löns, a revenge-fantasy about North-German peasants who, after having been plundered and brutalized repeatedly by occupying troops, become guerrillas who routinely ambush and massacre foraging soldiers. The book is notorious for being a favorite of the Nazis; it directly inspired the terrorist ''Werwolf'' guerrillas at the end of WorldWarII.UsefulNotes/WorldWarII. From the other wiki:
4th Jun '17 9:51:25 AM StarSword
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The war itself had ''extremely'' long-lasting effects, the most notable of which was the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_sovereignty Westphalian theory of sovereignty]], which is to say the idea that a state has territory, population, a government, and that foreigners do not (directly) interfere in its affairs, leading directly to the modern concept of the nation-state. Some present-day Mainland Chinese scholars have tried to tout [[UsefulNotes/DynastiesFromShangToQing the contemporary Ming Empire's]] model of vassal/client-state relations with the outside world as the 'true precedent of the concept of national sovereignty' instead. However, it should be noted that while this model did deny the right of any Barbarian power to interfere with Ming domestic affairs, it explicitly endorsed the Ming's right to intervene in those of its client-states - [[CriticalResearchFailure i.e. the exact opposite of the whole point of Westphalia]].[[note]] On the other hand, this is kind of the point about Mainland China's idea of sovereignty and the proper relationship between China and not-China. [[/note]]

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The war itself had ''extremely'' long-lasting effects, the most notable of which was the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_sovereignty Westphalian theory of sovereignty]], which is to say the idea that a state has territory, population, a government, and that foreigners do not (directly) (overtly) interfere in its affairs, leading directly to the modern concept of the nation-state. Some present-day Mainland Chinese scholars have tried to tout [[UsefulNotes/DynastiesFromShangToQing the contemporary Ming Empire's]] model of vassal/client-state relations with the outside world as the 'true precedent of the concept of national sovereignty' instead. However, it should be noted that while this model did deny the right of any Barbarian power to interfere with Ming domestic affairs, it explicitly endorsed the Ming's right to intervene in those of its client-states - [[CriticalResearchFailure i.e. the exact opposite of the whole point of Westphalia]].[[note]] On the other hand, this is kind of the point about Mainland China's idea of sovereignty and the proper relationship between China and not-China. [[/note]]



* The first half of the {{Music/Sabaton}} album ''Carolus Rex'' covers this, emphasizing the horrors of the war.

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* The first half of the {{Music/Sabaton}} album ''Carolus Rex'' covers this, this from Sweden's perspective, emphasizing the horrors of the war. "A Lifetime of War" in particular covers it in two different ways: [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvdbDw5bXnQ the English version of the song]] spends the first verse discussing the causes of the war (royal ambitions disguised by religious zealotry) before moving into an entire song of [[WhatTheHellHero "What the Hell, Europe?"]] [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo3cd1Rjsz4 The Swedish version]] focuses on the experiences of a common soldier fighting the war.
6th Apr '17 11:14:23 AM Brokenlampshade
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* There is a [[http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3307/wallenstein board game]] ''Wallenstein'', set in the Thirty Years War.

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* There is a [[http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3307/wallenstein board game]] ''Wallenstein'', ''Wallenstein'']] is set in the Thirty Years War.
6th Apr '17 11:13:10 AM Brokenlampshade
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* There is also a [[http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3307/wallenstein board game]] called ''Wallenstein'', set in the Thirty Years War.

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* There is also a [[http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3307/wallenstein board game]] called ''Wallenstein'', set in the Thirty Years War.
7th Mar '17 5:43:45 AM superkeaton
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It didn't matter whose side the army was on, to the common peasant, they were the enemy, as a farmer who found an army spending the winter on his lands would find he didn't have enough to feed his family. There were also large groups of civilians (mostly women and children) that were kidnapped from looted towns, and forced to live as servants and prostitutes for the army. Many children were born in the army and never knew anything else when the war ended decades later. Many mercenaries would just desert the army and strike it out on their own as "Freebooters" which more often than not was just a nicer way of saying bandits and highwaymen, thus furthering the plight of the common peasant just trying to live their lives. Add to that the religious dimension of the conflict. A particularly fanatical lord would often decide he didn't like that his neighboring lord was Catholic, or Protestant, [[WeAreStrugglingTogether or the wrong kind of Protestant]], and order his mercenaries to go and slaughter his neighbor's peasants even if the majority of said peasants were the same religion as him, as this would destroy that lord's income. Sadly, that's just scratching the surface. Unsurprisingly, many of the greatest works of art depicting the horrors of war have their origin in this conflict, most famously ''[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Grandes_Mis%C3%A8res_de_la_guerre The Miseries and Misfortunes of War]]'' by Jacques Callot.

to:

It didn't matter whose side the army was on, to the common peasant, they were the enemy, as a farmer who found an army spending the winter on his lands would find he didn't have enough to feed his family. There were also large groups of civilians (mostly women and children) that were kidnapped from looted towns, and forced to live as servants and prostitutes for the army. Many children were born in the army and never knew anything else when the war ended decades later. Many mercenaries would just desert the army and strike it out on their own as "Freebooters" which more often than not was just a nicer way of saying bandits and highwaymen, thus furthering the plight of the common peasant just trying to live their lives. Add to that the religious dimension of the conflict. A particularly fanatical lord would often decide he didn't like that his neighboring lord was Catholic, or Protestant, [[WeAreStrugglingTogether or the wrong kind of Protestant]], and order his mercenaries to go and slaughter his neighbor's peasants even if the majority of said peasants were the same religion as him, as this would destroy that lord's income. Sadly, that's just scratching the surface. Unsurprisingly, many of the greatest works of art depicting the horrors of war have their origin in this conflict, most famously ''[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Grandes_Mis%C3%A8res_de_la_guerre org/wiki/Les_Grandes_Miseres_de_la_guerre The Miseries and Misfortunes of War]]'' by Jacques Callot.
7th Mar '17 5:42:56 AM superkeaton
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It didn't matter whose side the army was on, to the common peasant, they were the enemy, as a farmer who found an army spending the winter on his lands would find he didn't have enough to feed his family. There were also large groups of civilians (mostly women and children) that were kidnapped from looted towns, and forced to live as servants and prostitutes for the army. Many children were born in the army and never knew anything else when the war ended decades later. Many mercenaries would just desert the army and strike it out on their own as "Freebooters" which more often than not was just a nicer way of saying bandits and highwaymen, thus furthering the plight of the common peasant just trying to live their lives. Add to that the religious dimension of the conflict. A particularly fanatical lord would often decide he didn't like that his neighboring lord was Catholic, or Protestant, [[WeAreStrugglingTogether or the wrong kind of Protestant]], and order his mercenaries to go and slaughter his neighbor's peasants even if the majority of said peasants were the same religion as him, as this would destroy that lord's income. Sadly, that's just scratching the surface. Unsurprisingly, many of the greatest works of art depicting the horrors of war have their origin in this conflict, most famously ''[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Grandes_Mis%C3%A8res_de_la_guerre The Miseries and Misfortunes of War]]'' by Jacques Callot.

to:

It didn't matter whose side the army was on, to the common peasant, they were the enemy, as a farmer who found an army spending the winter on his lands would find he didn't have enough to feed his family. There were also large groups of civilians (mostly women and children) that were kidnapped from looted towns, and forced to live as servants and prostitutes for the army. Many children were born in the army and never knew anything else when the war ended decades later. Many mercenaries would just desert the army and strike it out on their own as "Freebooters" which more often than not was just a nicer way of saying bandits and highwaymen, thus furthering the plight of the common peasant just trying to live their lives. Add to that the religious dimension of the conflict. A particularly fanatical lord would often decide he didn't like that his neighboring lord was Catholic, or Protestant, [[WeAreStrugglingTogether or the wrong kind of Protestant]], and order his mercenaries to go and slaughter his neighbor's peasants even if the majority of said peasants were the same religion as him, as this would destroy that lord's income. Sadly, that's just scratching the surface. Unsurprisingly, many of the greatest works of art depicting the horrors of war have their origin in this conflict, most famously ''[[http://en.''[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_Grandes_Mis%C3%A8res_de_la_guerre The Miseries and Misfortunes of War]]'' by Jacques Callot.
5th Mar '17 11:16:18 AM Morgenthaler
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The causes of the war are complex, and considering the numerous participants arguably unique to each one of them. The basic conflict involved tensions between Protestants and Catholics inside the HolyRomanEmpire, tensions between the emperor and his princes (Protestant ''and'' Catholic), tensions between the Czechs and the [[UsefulNotes/{{Germany}} Germans]] within TheEmpire, the old French-Habsburg rivalry, [[UsefulNotes/{{Denmark}} Danish]]-[[UsefulNotes/{{Sweden}} Swedish]] rivalry, [[UsefulNotes/TheEightyYearsWar the Spanish conflict with the Dutch]], and Swedish designs on the Baltic. All of these things flowed together to create a 30-year long [[SophisticatedAsHell clusterfuck]] in which the sides were not always clearly marked, with certain factions frequently changing sides or essentially blackmailing their "allies" as the situation seemed to shift to their own advantage. The three decades of war are considered to be very important because of the military, social and economic development that it accelerated: Armies in this period became even larger than they had been during the Habsburg-Valois and Habsburg-Ottoman and Religious Wars of the 16th Century, and new tactics were tried out that would eventually become important.

The war itself is considered to have been exceptionally destructive, killing off as much as 1/3 of the population of the HolyRomanEmpire - not through fighting, though, so much as causing artificial famines with the giant and marauding standing armies' need to continually steal hundreds of tons of food daily from the surrounding landscape to sustain themselves. Worse, the indecisive and back-and-forth nature of the war meant that ''the same areas'' (given their economic and/or strategic importance) were raided again and again and again (whereas others remained totally untouched), as the page quote attests. The primary causes of death during the war were thus beriberi, measles, tuberculosis, smallpox, and the common cold.

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The causes of the war are complex, and considering the numerous participants arguably unique to each one of them. The basic conflict involved tensions between Protestants and Catholics inside the HolyRomanEmpire, UsefulNotes/HolyRomanEmpire, tensions between the emperor and his princes (Protestant ''and'' Catholic), tensions between the Czechs and the [[UsefulNotes/{{Germany}} Germans]] within TheEmpire, the old French-Habsburg rivalry, [[UsefulNotes/{{Denmark}} Danish]]-[[UsefulNotes/{{Sweden}} Swedish]] rivalry, [[UsefulNotes/TheEightyYearsWar the Spanish conflict with the Dutch]], and Swedish designs on the Baltic. All of these things flowed together to create a 30-year long [[SophisticatedAsHell clusterfuck]] in which the sides were not always clearly marked, with certain factions frequently changing sides or essentially blackmailing their "allies" as the situation seemed to shift to their own advantage. The three decades of war are considered to be very important because of the military, social and economic development that it accelerated: Armies in this period became even larger than they had been during the Habsburg-Valois and Habsburg-Ottoman and Religious Wars of the 16th Century, and new tactics were tried out that would eventually become important.

The war itself is considered to have been exceptionally destructive, killing off as much as 1/3 of the population of the HolyRomanEmpire UsefulNotes/HolyRomanEmpire - not through fighting, though, so much as causing artificial famines with the giant and marauding standing armies' need to continually steal hundreds of tons of food daily from the surrounding landscape to sustain themselves. Worse, the indecisive and back-and-forth nature of the war meant that ''the same areas'' (given their economic and/or strategic importance) were raided again and again and again (whereas others remained totally untouched), as the page quote attests. The primary causes of death during the war were thus beriberi, measles, tuberculosis, smallpox, and the common cold.



The war once and for all broke any pretense of the HolyRomanEmpire being a unified state, cemented France as the dominant power in Europe, and propelled Sweden to the status of short-lived great power. [[ArsonMurderAndJaywalking It also made boots fashionable.]] It concluded with the Peace of Westphalia, two treaties (in Münster and Osnabrück) that involved the Spanish accepting Dutch independence, a blanket pardon for any crimes committed in the war, and some territorial changes; it's sometimes called the "Peace of Exhaustion". The key point, though, was the acceptance that a ruler could choose the religion of his state (the so-called ''cuius regio, eius religio''-"whose realm, his religion" principle), but those who followed other Christian denominations (Calvinism was covered in this for the first time) could also do that with some restrictions. This pretty much wrapped up the religious wars of Europe.

to:

The war once and for all broke any pretense of the HolyRomanEmpire UsefulNotes/HolyRomanEmpire being a unified state, cemented France as the dominant power in Europe, and propelled Sweden to the status of short-lived great power. [[ArsonMurderAndJaywalking It also made boots fashionable.]] It concluded with the Peace of Westphalia, two treaties (in Münster and Osnabrück) that involved the Spanish accepting Dutch independence, a blanket pardon for any crimes committed in the war, and some territorial changes; it's sometimes called the "Peace of Exhaustion". The key point, though, was the acceptance that a ruler could choose the religion of his state (the so-called ''cuius regio, eius religio''-"whose realm, his religion" principle), but those who followed other Christian denominations (Calvinism was covered in this for the first time) could also do that with some restrictions. This pretty much wrapped up the religious wars of Europe.
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