History UsefulNotes / ThirtyYearsWar

13th Jan '16 7:40:36 AM ScrewySqrl
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Massive European war raging from 1618 to 1648 (although the [[UsefulNotes/{{France}} French]] continued fighting the [[UsefulNotes/{{Spain}} Spanish]] for a bit longer), involving, directly or indirectly, just about every European power in some fashion. It is usually considered to be the longest recorded continuous war (UsefulNotes/TheHundredYearsWar had a couple of interruptions, as did UsefulNotes/TheEightyYearsWar), and in its time was one of the bloodiest wars recorded in history. It was mainly (though not exclusively) fought within the HolyRomanEmpire.

to:

Massive European war raging from 1618 to 1648 (although the [[UsefulNotes/{{France}} French]] continued fighting the [[UsefulNotes/{{Spain}} Spanish]] for a bit longer), involving, directly or indirectly, just about every European power in some fashion. It is usually considered to be the longest recorded continuous war (UsefulNotes/TheHundredYearsWar had a couple of interruptions, as did UsefulNotes/TheEightyYearsWar), and in its time was one of the bloodiest wars recorded in history. It was mainly (though not exclusively) fought within the HolyRomanEmpire. \n It was devastating to the Empire: Most estimates suggest one ''third'' of Germans died in the war.
24th Dec '15 1:45:53 PM SantosLHalper
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->''"First came the Greycoats to eat all my swine, Next came the Bluecoats to make my sons fight, Next came the Greencoats to make my wife whore, Next came the Browncoats to burn down my home. I have naught but my life, now come the Blackcoats to rob me of that."''

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->''"First came the Greycoats to eat all my swine, swine,\\
Next came the Bluecoats to make my sons fight, fight,\\
Next came the Greencoats to make my wife whore, whore,\\
Next came the Browncoats to burn down my home. home.\\
I have naught but my life, now come the Blackcoats to rob me of that."''
17th Oct '15 7:09:41 PM nombretomado
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Indeed, 'sovereignty' is the real meaning of ''cuius regio, eius religio'': while religious affairs were in themselves important, they also served as a stand-in for the more general displeasure of the German princes at the constant interference of the Emperor and of rulers across Europe at the constant interference of ThePope (it's no coincidence that the Pope tends to drop out of European history textbooks sometime in the 17th century). The Westphalian system continued unchallenged among Western powers until the 20th century, when a few theoreticians attempted to make modifications in response to the atrocities of WorldWarII and the nasty business after TheGreatPoliticsMessUp (particularly TheYugoslavWars). Nevertheless, the modern system of states is more or less Westphalian, and several states (particularly [[RedChina China]] and to a lesser extent [[TheNewRussia Russia]]) still insist on it.

to:

Indeed, 'sovereignty' is the real meaning of ''cuius regio, eius religio'': while religious affairs were in themselves important, they also served as a stand-in for the more general displeasure of the German princes at the constant interference of the Emperor and of rulers across Europe at the constant interference of ThePope UsefulNotes/ThePope (it's no coincidence that the Pope tends to drop out of European history textbooks sometime in the 17th century). The Westphalian system continued unchallenged among Western powers until the 20th century, when a few theoreticians attempted to make modifications in response to the atrocities of WorldWarII and the nasty business after TheGreatPoliticsMessUp (particularly TheYugoslavWars). Nevertheless, the modern system of states is more or less Westphalian, and several states (particularly [[RedChina China]] and to a lesser extent [[TheNewRussia Russia]]) still insist on it.
8th Oct '15 5:52:07 PM MarkLungo
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Massive European war raging from 1618 to 1648 (although the [[UsefulNotes/{{France}} French]] continued fighting the [[UsefulNotes/{{Spain}} Spanish]] for a bit longer), involving, directly or indirectly, just about every European power in some fashion. It is usually considered to be the longest recorded continuous war (UsefulNotes/TheHundredYearsWar had a couple of interruptions, as did the EightyYearsWar), and in its time was one of the bloodiest wars recorded in history. It was mainly (though not exclusively) fought within the HolyRomanEmpire.

to:

Massive European war raging from 1618 to 1648 (although the [[UsefulNotes/{{France}} French]] continued fighting the [[UsefulNotes/{{Spain}} Spanish]] for a bit longer), involving, directly or indirectly, just about every European power in some fashion. It is usually considered to be the longest recorded continuous war (UsefulNotes/TheHundredYearsWar had a couple of interruptions, as did the EightyYearsWar), UsefulNotes/TheEightyYearsWar), and in its time was one of the bloodiest wars recorded in history. It was mainly (though not exclusively) fought within the HolyRomanEmpire.



The causes of the war are complex, and considering the numerous participants arguably unique to each one of them. The basic conflict involved tensions between Protestants and Catholics inside the HolyRomanEmpire, tensions between the emperor and his princes (Protestant ''and'' Catholic), tensions between the Czechs and the [[UsefulNotes/{{Germany}} Germans]] within TheEmpire, the old French-Habsburg rivalry, [[UsefulNotes/{{Denmark}} Danish]]-[[UsefulNotes/{{Sweden}} Swedish]] rivalry, the [[EightyYearsWar Spanish conflict with the Dutch]], and Swedish designs on the Baltic. All of these things flowed together to create a 30-year long [[SophisticatedAsHell clusterfuck]] in which the sides were not always clearly marked, with certain factions frequently changing sides or essentially blackmailing their "allies" as the situation seemed to shift to their own advantage. The three decades of war are considered to be very important because of the military, social and economic development that it accelerated: Armies in this period became even larger than they had been during the Habsburg-Valois and Habsburg-Ottoman and Religious Wars of the 16th Century, and new tactics were tried out that would eventually become important.

to:

The causes of the war are complex, and considering the numerous participants arguably unique to each one of them. The basic conflict involved tensions between Protestants and Catholics inside the HolyRomanEmpire, tensions between the emperor and his princes (Protestant ''and'' Catholic), tensions between the Czechs and the [[UsefulNotes/{{Germany}} Germans]] within TheEmpire, the old French-Habsburg rivalry, [[UsefulNotes/{{Denmark}} Danish]]-[[UsefulNotes/{{Sweden}} Swedish]] rivalry, [[UsefulNotes/TheEightyYearsWar the [[EightyYearsWar Spanish conflict with the Dutch]], and Swedish designs on the Baltic. All of these things flowed together to create a 30-year long [[SophisticatedAsHell clusterfuck]] in which the sides were not always clearly marked, with certain factions frequently changing sides or essentially blackmailing their "allies" as the situation seemed to shift to their own advantage. The three decades of war are considered to be very important because of the military, social and economic development that it accelerated: Armies in this period became even larger than they had been during the Habsburg-Valois and Habsburg-Ottoman and Religious Wars of the 16th Century, and new tactics were tried out that would eventually become important.
25th May '15 6:40:31 AM MAI742
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The war itself had ''extremely'' long-lasting effects, the most notable of which was the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_sovereignty Westphalian theory of sovereignty]], which is to say the idea that a state has territory, population, a government, and that foreigners do not (directly) interfere in its affairs, leading directly to the modern concept of the nation-state. Some present-day Mainland Chinese scholars have tried to tout the Ming Empire's model of vassal/client-state relations with the outside world as the 'true precedent of the concept of national sovereignty' instead. However, it should be noted that while this model did deny the right of any Barbarian power to interfere with Ming domestic affairs, it explicitly endorsed the Ming's right to intervene in those of its client-states - [[CriticalResearchFailure i.e. the exact opposite of the whole point of Westphalia]].[[note]] On the other hand, this is kind of the point about Mainland China's idea of sovereignty and the proper relationship between China and not-China. [[/note]]

to:

The war itself had ''extremely'' long-lasting effects, the most notable of which was the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_sovereignty Westphalian theory of sovereignty]], which is to say the idea that a state has territory, population, a government, and that foreigners do not (directly) interfere in its affairs, leading directly to the modern concept of the nation-state. Some present-day Mainland Chinese scholars have tried to tout [[UsefulNotes/DynastiesFromShangToQing the contemporary Ming Empire's Empire's]] model of vassal/client-state relations with the outside world as the 'true precedent of the concept of national sovereignty' instead. However, it should be noted that while this model did deny the right of any Barbarian power to interfere with Ming domestic affairs, it explicitly endorsed the Ming's right to intervene in those of its client-states - [[CriticalResearchFailure i.e. the exact opposite of the whole point of Westphalia]].[[note]] On the other hand, this is kind of the point about Mainland China's idea of sovereignty and the proper relationship between China and not-China. [[/note]]
25th May '15 6:39:38 AM MAI742
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The war itself had ''extremely'' long-lasting effects, the most notable of which was the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_sovereignty Westphalian theory of sovereignty]], which is to say the idea that a state has territory, population, a government, and that foreigners do not (directly) interfere in its affairs, leading directly to the modern concept of the nation-state. Indeed, this last point is the real meaning of ''cuius regio, eius religio'': while religious affairs were in themselves important, they also served as a stand-in for the more general displeasure of the German princes at the constant interference of the Emperor and of rulers across Europe at the constant interference of ThePope (it's no coincidence that the Pope tends to drop out of European history textbooks sometime in the 17th century). The Westphalian system continued unchallenged among Western powers until the 20th century, when a few theoreticians attempted to make modifications in response to the atrocities of WorldWarII and the nasty business after TheGreatPoliticsMessUp (particularly TheYugoslavWars). Nevertheless, the modern system of states is more or less Westphalian, and several states (particularly [[RedChina China]] and to a lesser extent [[TheNewRussia Russia]]) still insist on it.

to:

The war itself had ''extremely'' long-lasting effects, the most notable of which was the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_sovereignty Westphalian theory of sovereignty]], which is to say the idea that a state has territory, population, a government, and that foreigners do not (directly) interfere in its affairs, leading directly to the modern concept of the nation-state. Some present-day Mainland Chinese scholars have tried to tout the Ming Empire's model of vassal/client-state relations with the outside world as the 'true precedent of the concept of national sovereignty' instead. However, it should be noted that while this model did deny the right of any Barbarian power to interfere with Ming domestic affairs, it explicitly endorsed the Ming's right to intervene in those of its client-states - [[CriticalResearchFailure i.e. the exact opposite of the whole point of Westphalia]].[[note]] On the other hand, this is kind of the point about Mainland China's idea of sovereignty and the proper relationship between China and not-China. [[/note]]

Indeed, this last point 'sovereignty' is the real meaning of ''cuius regio, eius religio'': while religious affairs were in themselves important, they also served as a stand-in for the more general displeasure of the German princes at the constant interference of the Emperor and of rulers across Europe at the constant interference of ThePope (it's no coincidence that the Pope tends to drop out of European history textbooks sometime in the 17th century). The Westphalian system continued unchallenged among Western powers until the 20th century, when a few theoreticians attempted to make modifications in response to the atrocities of WorldWarII and the nasty business after TheGreatPoliticsMessUp (particularly TheYugoslavWars). Nevertheless, the modern system of states is more or less Westphalian, and several states (particularly [[RedChina China]] and to a lesser extent [[TheNewRussia Russia]]) still insist on it.
22nd May '15 11:15:35 AM ShinyTsukkomi
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Massive European war raging from 1618 to 1648 (although the [[UsefulNotes/{{France}} French]] continued fighting the [[UsefulNotes/{{Spain}} Spanish]] for a bit longer), involving, directly or indirectly, just about every European power in some fashion. It is usually considered to be the longest recorded continuous war (The HundredYearsWar had a couple of interruptions, as did the EightyYearsWar), and in its time was one of the bloodiest wars recorded in history. It was mainly (though not exclusively) fought within the HolyRomanEmpire.

to:

Massive European war raging from 1618 to 1648 (although the [[UsefulNotes/{{France}} French]] continued fighting the [[UsefulNotes/{{Spain}} Spanish]] for a bit longer), involving, directly or indirectly, just about every European power in some fashion. It is usually considered to be the longest recorded continuous war (The HundredYearsWar (UsefulNotes/TheHundredYearsWar had a couple of interruptions, as did the EightyYearsWar), and in its time was one of the bloodiest wars recorded in history. It was mainly (though not exclusively) fought within the HolyRomanEmpire.
5th Dec '14 11:38:32 PM karstovich2
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Its start is usually fixed on the [[InherentlyFunnyWords Defenestration of Prague]], an event in which a throng of rebellious Bohemian Protestants forced their way into Prague Castle and, after a symbolical trial, threw two Catholic Imperial governors [[DestinationDefenestration from a third-storey window]]. They survived badly bruised, their fall having been cushioned by either angels led by St. Mary (Catholic propaganda), a heap of horse manure (Protestant propaganda), or neither of the two (modern historians).

to:

Its start is usually fixed on the [[InherentlyFunnyWords Defenestration of Prague]], an event in which a throng of rebellious Bohemian Protestants forced their way into Prague Castle and, after a symbolical trial, threw two Catholic Imperial governors [[DestinationDefenestration from a third-storey window]]. They survived badly bruised, their fall having been cushioned by either angels led by St. Mary (Catholic propaganda), a heap of horse manure (Protestant propaganda), or neither of the two two, because it wasn't a particularly high window (modern historians).
27th Oct '14 11:20:05 PM MAI742
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Some historians argue that, even compared to the wars of the twentieth century, it remains the most destructive war in European history in terms of its proportionate death toll and the degree of economic damage and social mayhem relative to the state of society before it. The unprecedented level of destruction stemmed from the way the war was fought continuously and entirely by very large mercenary armies operating without supply lines. Mercenaries were used so exclusively because the new, more effective gunpowder weapons (particularly the flintlock musket) in combination with the perfection of the pike-and-shot system[[note]]Pikes and other forms of "pointy stick" warfare were not yet obsolete at this point in time. That only came with the discovery of a way to turn a musket into a pointy stick--the bayonet--which only became widespread in the last quarter of the 17th century, long after the end of this particular war. For details, see [[Analysis/FantasyGunControl the Analysis page]] for FantasyGunControl.[[/note]] had made the old knight-based model of warfare obsolete nearly two hundred years ago by this point, and yet nobody had figured out the modern model of professional armies yet.[[note]]Gunpowder weapons had existed in Europe since at least the 15th century; however, gunpowder technology and tactics had changed dramatically. Technically, Creator/NiccoloMachiavelli ''had'' figured out the rough outlines of the model--he advocated for armies composed solely of citizens of the state in question, although he envisioned it as a militia of all able-bodied male citizens in the style of TheRomanRepublic rather than a professional force--but nobody listened to him.[[/note]] Missing a payment would mean your armies switched over to your enemy. The soldiers themselves were conscripted. An army would come to town and say, "every man here joins us or we hang you". The ones who joined had to loot farms and towns in order to survive since armies march on their stomachs. Often an entire town had to pool their gold, and bribe the invading army to go away (of course sometimes they'd just take the money and loot anyway).

to:

Some historians argue that, even compared to the wars of the twentieth century, it remains the most destructive war in European history in terms of its proportionate death toll and the degree of economic damage and social mayhem relative to the state of society before it. The unprecedented level of destruction stemmed from the way the war was fought continuously and entirely by very large mercenary armies operating without supply lines. Mercenaries were used so exclusively because the new, more effective gunpowder weapons (particularly the flintlock musket) in combination with the perfection of the pike-and-shot system[[note]]Pikes and other forms of "pointy stick" warfare were not yet obsolete at this point in time. That only came with the discovery of a way to turn a musket into a pointy stick--the bayonet--which only became widespread in the last quarter of the 17th century, long after the end of this particular war. For details, see [[Analysis/FantasyGunControl the Analysis page]] for FantasyGunControl.[[/note]] had made the old knight-based model of warfare obsolete nearly two hundred years ago by this point, and yet nobody had figured out the modern model of professional armies yet.[[note]]Gunpowder weapons had existed in Europe since at least the 15th century; however, actual gunpowder technology weapons and tactics had changed dramatically. Technically, Creator/NiccoloMachiavelli ''had'' figured out the rough outlines of the model--he advocated for armies composed solely of citizens of the state in question, although he envisioned it as a militia of all able-bodied male citizens in the style of TheRomanRepublic rather than a professional force--but nobody listened to him.[[/note]] Missing a payment would mean your armies switched over to your enemy. The soldiers themselves were conscripted. An army would come to town and say, "every man here joins us or we hang you". The ones who joined had to loot farms and towns in order to survive since armies march on their stomachs. Often an entire town had to pool their gold, and bribe the invading army to go away (of course sometimes they'd just take the money and loot anyway).
20th Oct '14 9:19:00 PM Prfnoff
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* ''Die Harmonie der Welt'', an opera by Paul Hindemith about the life of Johannes Kepler.

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* ''Die Harmonie der Welt'', an opera by Paul Hindemith about the life of Johannes Kepler.Kepler, whose otherworldly ambitions are contrasted with the worldly ambitions of Wallenstein.
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