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History UsefulNotes / Suicide

22nd May '16 2:02:51 PM CantNotLookAtThisSite
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* 08357 90 90 90 The Samaritans, UK

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* 08357 90 90 90 / 116 123 The Samaritans, UK
11th May '16 1:51:51 AM RevolutionStone
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* Creator/RobinWilliams took his own life after a long struggle with depression and alcoholism. Humor website ''Website/{{Cracked}}'' [[http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/robin-williams-why-funny-people-kill-themselves/ observed]] that [[SadClown depression is extremely common among comedians]], and revealed that they monitor their blog comments for indications of suicidal tendencies [[YouAreNotAlone so they can offer support and encouragement]].

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* Creator/RobinWilliams took his own life after a long struggle with depression and alcoholism.alcoholism, although there's some evidence it may have also been due to his suffering a terminal illness, Lewy body dementia. Humor website ''Website/{{Cracked}}'' [[http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/robin-williams-why-funny-people-kill-themselves/ observed]] that [[SadClown depression is extremely common among comedians]], and revealed that they monitor their blog comments for indications of suicidal tendencies [[YouAreNotAlone so they can offer support and encouragement]].
1st May '16 6:20:43 PM DavidDelony
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** That said, going too far in the other direction and assuming that suicidality is only out of a known biological mental illness is also a huge misconception and mistake. It IS possible to be DrivenToSuicide, especially in situations involving UsefulNotes/{{Abuse}} to the point where the abuse (especially emotional abuse) has entirely destroyed someone's self-concept or taken away their will to live. Do not immediately assume that a suicidal person's family or religious organization is somehow always "on their side" or "trying to save them from themselves" - these are two groups that ''can'' and sometimes ''do'' inflict such pervasive emotional abuse. Also, some people with no or only mild apparent previous mental illness ''can'' be DrivenToSuicide by a sudden tragedy - sudden loss of a meaningful person such as a relative or spouse/lover to death and severe financial loss are two huge risk factors. [[note]] There is actually a strong connection between economic recessions/depressions/austerity and suicides, one ''not'' explained by the lack of or postponement of seeking mental health services during such - financial loss ''itself'' is the suicide-inspiring factor.[[/note]]

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** That said, going too far in the other direction and assuming that suicidality is only out of a known biological mental illness is also a huge misconception and mistake. It IS possible to be DrivenToSuicide, especially in situations involving UsefulNotes/{{Abuse}} to the point where the abuse (especially emotional abuse) has entirely destroyed someone's self-concept or taken away their will to live. Do not immediately assume that a suicidal person's family or religious organization is somehow always "on their side" or "trying to save them from themselves" - these are two groups that ''can'' and sometimes ''do'' inflict such pervasive emotional abuse. Also, some people with no or only mild apparent previous mental illness ''can'' be DrivenToSuicide by a sudden tragedy - sudden loss of a meaningful person such as a relative or spouse/lover to death and severe financial loss are two huge risk factors. In this case, they think that they're literally facing a FateWorseThanDeath. [[note]] There is actually a strong connection between economic recessions/depressions/austerity and suicides, one ''not'' explained by the lack of or postponement of seeking mental health services during such - financial loss ''itself'' is the suicide-inspiring factor.[[/note]]
19th Apr '16 9:33:21 AM MicoolTNT
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* Ex-HotScoop [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Chubbuck Christine "Chris" Chubbuck]] committed suicide by shooting herself ''on the air'' in TheSeventies. The damage wasn't nearly as severe as [[YourHeadASplode head explosions]] or PinkMist, as those in the studio thought [[LikeYouWouldReallyDoIt it was]] [[DudeNotFunny a tasteless prank]]... until they realized it wasn't. Poor Christine died some hours later.

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* Ex-HotScoop [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Chubbuck Christine "Chris" Chubbuck]] committed suicide by shooting herself ''on the air'' in TheSeventies. The damage wasn't nearly as severe as [[YourHeadASplode head explosions]] or PinkMist, as those Those in the studio initially thought [[LikeYouWouldReallyDoIt it was]] was [[DudeNotFunny a tasteless prank]]... until they realized it wasn't. Poor Christine died some hours later.
14th Apr '16 11:08:27 AM aye_amber
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* [[http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/09/29/Sex_Video_Drives_Rutgers_Freshman_to_Suicide This story]] of a student who committed suicide after being outed as gay due to a [[DeadlyPrank prank]].

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* [[http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/09/29/Sex_Video_Drives_Rutgers_Freshman_to_Suicide This story]] of a student who committed suicide after being outed as gay due to a [[DeadlyPrank prank]].prank.]]



* Ian Curtis of JoyDivision hung himself, due most likely to his collapsing marriage and bouts of severe epilepsy, combined with pre-existing depression.

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* Ian Curtis of JoyDivision Music/JoyDivision hung himself, due most likely to his collapsing marriage and bouts of severe epilepsy, combined with pre-existing depression.



* [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Adolf_Hitler#Suicide Perhaps the only time to win an argument by using]] GodwinsLaw.
* The award-winning photojournalist Kevin Carter (who was the subject of the ManicStreetPreachers song of the same name) killed himself due to the many [[HumansAreBastards horrific things]] he had [[CreatorBreakdown seen and photographed]] over the years.

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* [[http://en.[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Adolf_Hitler#Suicide Perhaps the only time to win an argument by using]] GodwinsLaw.
* The award-winning photojournalist Kevin Carter (who was the subject of the ManicStreetPreachers Music/ManicStreetPreachers song of the same name) killed himself due to the many [[HumansAreBastards horrific things]] he had [[CreatorBreakdown seen and photographed]] over the years.
31st Mar '16 8:09:39 PM aye_amber
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** John Berryman, another poet, who killed himself by jumping off the Washington Avenue Bridge onto the west bank of the Mississippi River. As NickCave put it:

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** John Berryman, another poet, who killed himself by jumping off the Washington Avenue Bridge onto the west bank of the Mississippi River. As NickCave Music/NickCave put it:
9th Mar '16 8:59:13 AM HasturHasturHastur
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** Police involvement ''heavily'' raises the risk of violence. Someone unstable who is otherwise not violent may be mistaken for violent and killed or seriously injured by police feeling threatened. In one two-week period in 2013, there were at least four cases of police shooting dead suicidal people who ''posed little or no threat'' to the officers' lives (e.g. the "weapons" they had would have at most bruised or scratched an officer in proper gear if even that), and [[https://www.google.com/search?q=police+brutality+against+mentally+ill&oq=police+violence+against+mentally+ill&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0.7804j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8 the trend shows no means of ending]]. This is because ''many'' police officers are trained to force compliance to their orders with violence ''and'' are not trained in nonviolent deescalation or in the proper ways to handle a psychological crisis or medical emergency, especially if the person who is ill or in crisis doesn't immediately obey them and respect their authority.

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** Police involvement ''heavily'' raises the risk of violence. Someone unstable who is otherwise not violent may be mistaken for violent and killed or seriously injured by police feeling threatened.threatened, and someone who may potentially be violent but who can probably be kept from engaging in it may be pushed over the edge by police involvement. In one two-week period in 2013, there were at least four cases of police shooting dead suicidal people who ''posed little or no threat'' to the officers' lives (e.g. the "weapons" they had would have at most bruised or scratched an officer in proper gear if even that), and [[https://www.google.com/search?q=police+brutality+against+mentally+ill&oq=police+violence+against+mentally+ill&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0.7804j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8 the trend shows no means of ending]]. This is because ''many'' police officers are trained to force compliance to their orders with violence ''and'' are not trained in nonviolent deescalation or in the proper ways to handle a psychological crisis or medical emergency, especially if the person who is ill or in crisis doesn't immediately obey them and respect their authority.



** As an addenda to this, pretty much the only time suicidal people are dangerous to anyone ''but'' themselves is if they express interest in [[TakingYouWithMe murder-suicide as revenge[=/=]TakingYouWithMe]][=/=]SuicideByCop or the like and pursue such plans, if they choose a method that is guaranteed to hurt/kill others, have stated that they will harm anyone who attempts to stop them, or ''if'' they are armed with a weapon such as a gun or long knife/sword ''and'' interrupted mid-attempt with someone violently trying to take the weapon away.

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** As an addenda to this, pretty much the only time suicidal people are dangerous to anyone ''but'' themselves is if they express interest in [[TakingYouWithMe murder-suicide as revenge[=/=]TakingYouWithMe]][=/=]SuicideByCop or the like and pursue such plans, if they choose a method that is guaranteed to hurt/kill others, have stated that they will harm anyone who attempts to stop them, them (and you know them well enough to have good reason to believe that they are not bluffing), or ''if'' they are armed with a weapon such as a gun or long knife/sword ''and'' interrupted mid-attempt with someone violently trying to take the weapon away.
17th Feb '16 9:38:40 PM Kurtis
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Despite [[SuicideAsComedy what many works may lead you to believe]], suicide is a serious and extremely sensitive topic even with teenagers. Helping the suicidal is hard to do since many have little to no knowledge of psychology. The warning signs are [[GoodbyeCruelWorld much more nuanced]] and [[DrivenToSuicide variable]] than what the media portrays. The pervasive mishandling of the issue, especially by Hollywood, leads to many deaths that could have been prevented if the proper measures had been taken. However, this page is not the end-all guide to diagnosis: This will merely debunk the common misconceptions surrounding suicide, as well as shed light on the reasons for them.

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Despite [[SuicideAsComedy what many works may lead you to believe]], suicide is a serious and extremely sensitive topic even with teenagers.topic. Helping the suicidal is hard to do since many have little to no knowledge of psychology. The warning signs are [[GoodbyeCruelWorld much more nuanced]] and [[DrivenToSuicide variable]] than what the media portrays. The pervasive mishandling of the issue, especially by Hollywood, leads to many deaths that could have been prevented if the proper measures had been taken. However, this page is not the end-all guide to diagnosis: This will merely debunk the common misconceptions surrounding suicide, as well as shed light on the reasons for them.
31st Jan '16 10:10:55 PM MasterofGalaxies4628
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* The creator of the webcomic Webcomic/SexyLosers has chronic depression. His most recent webcomic, [[http://depressioncomix.tumblr.com/ Depression Comix]], depicts his personal experiences of what it's like to live with depression, including self-harm and thoughts of suicide.

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* The creator of the webcomic Webcomic/SexyLosers ''Webcomic/SexyLosers'' has chronic depression. His most recent webcomic, [[http://depressioncomix.tumblr.com/ Depression Comix]], ''Webcomic/DepressionComix'', depicts his personal experiences of what it's like to live with depression, including self-harm and thoughts of suicide.
10th Dec '15 1:47:30 PM MerryMikael
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Despite [[SuicideAsComedy what many works may lead you to believe]], suicide is a serious and extremely sensitive topic even with teenagers. Helping the suicidal is hard to do since many have little to no knowledge of psychology, and the warning signs are [[GoodbyeCruelWorld much more nuanced]] and [[DrivenToSuicide variable]] than what the media portrays. The pervasive mishandling of the issue, especially by Hollywood, leads to many deaths that could have been prevented if the proper measures had been taken. However, this page is not the end-all guide to diagnosis: This will merely debunk the common misconceptions surrounding suicide, as well as shed light on the reasons for them.

to:

Despite [[SuicideAsComedy what many works may lead you to believe]], suicide is a serious and extremely sensitive topic even with teenagers. Helping the suicidal is hard to do since many have little to no knowledge of psychology, and the psychology. The warning signs are [[GoodbyeCruelWorld much more nuanced]] and [[DrivenToSuicide variable]] than what the media portrays. The pervasive mishandling of the issue, especially by Hollywood, leads to many deaths that could have been prevented if the proper measures had been taken. However, this page is not the end-all guide to diagnosis: This will merely debunk the common misconceptions surrounding suicide, as well as shed light on the reasons for them.



But even in Western societies, the stigma around depression is such that sufferers will ''not'' ask for help immediately; occasionally, they will even insist that they feel normal and [[DontYouDarePityMe refuse help if offered]]. Constantly refusing help despite evidence that they need it is as much of a warning sign as asking for it: If someone suspects that their friend or loved one is feeling any sort of distress, they should keep offering help no matter how often the person refuses. It is ''extremely'' important that family and friends remain as supportive as possible, because the person is already under considerable mental stress--giving up on them may reinforce or even cause feelings of worthlessness, and suicide may be more likely than if they'd never gotten help in the first place.

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But even in Western societies, the stigma around depression is such that sufferers will ''not'' ask for help immediately; occasionally, immediately. Occasionally, they will even insist that they feel normal and [[DontYouDarePityMe refuse help if offered]]. Constantly refusing help despite evidence that they need it is as much of a warning sign as asking for it: If someone suspects that their friend or loved one is feeling any sort of distress, they should keep offering help no matter how often the person refuses. It is ''extremely'' important that family and friends remain as supportive as possible, because the person is already under considerable mental stress--giving up on them may reinforce or even cause feelings of worthlessness, and suicide may be more likely than if they'd never gotten help in the first place.



* Misconception: '''Depressed or suicidal people must be living wrong, getting religion/getting sober/committing to a natural lifestyle/manifesting positive thoughts will fix it!''' This is one of the most damaging and often suicide-inspiring misconceptions of depression there is (because it makes the guilt and self-blame a depression sufferer already has far worse to believe that their suffering is their own fault), and it's also one that can lead people suffering from depression to make life choices that at best do nothing and at worst destroy their lives with no benefit.
** People of ''any and all religions'' suffer abuse, depression, anxiety, bipolar, loss/trauma, and/or other reasons to feel suicidal. ''No'' religious belief is a cure for depression or anxiety (or any other illness) in and of itself, especially when the cause of depression or anxiety is entirely biochemical or hormonal or the like. While religious belief and prayer ''does'' have some positive effect on depression or anxiety for ''some'' believers, and religious groups ''can'' provide needed social support, some religious groups can also inflict such pervasive emotional and/or financial abuse that they worsen or even cause depression and suicide, can drive people (especially those who are LGBTQ) to believe they are "sinful" and "evil" or "not doing enough," or add a religious element to the depression/suicidality such as "God hates me" or "I deserve hell." Religious belief ''can'' be helpful to those who already have it and/or who are seeking it for the reasons of prayer/meditation/ritual being comforting and social support via meetings/assemblies/etcetera, but it isn't a cure-all, can make things worse, and having depression doesn't mean you're unspiritual or a "sinner" or lack faith. Also, if a religious group offers to heal your mind but ''requires'' or insists on increasingly large financial donations to help you, this is a red flag of something that ''can'' drive people to suicide and definitely won't help.
*** Also, if you are severely depressed (or alternately, in a manic or psychotic episode), while you may be pondering religious ideas or thoughts, you are likely not of a sound enough mind to choose a religion or belief system wisely, and should wait until you are in a better frame of mind. Many highly demanding/outright abusive or fraudulent religious sects actively recruit mentally ill/mentally troubled people, and in such a state you ''are'' more vulnerable to making very bad decisions.

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* Misconception: '''Depressed or suicidal people must be living wrong, getting religion/getting sober/committing to a natural lifestyle/manifesting positive thoughts will fix it!''' This is one of the most damaging and often suicide-inspiring misconceptions of depression there is (because it is. It makes the guilt and self-blame a depression sufferer already has far worse to believe that their suffering is their own fault), and it's fault. It's also one that can lead people suffering from depression to make life choices that at best do nothing and at worst destroy their lives with no benefit.
** People of ''any and all religions'' suffer abuse, depression, anxiety, bipolar, loss/trauma, and/or other reasons to feel suicidal. ''No'' religious belief is a cure for depression or anxiety (or any other illness) in and of itself, especially when the cause of depression or anxiety is entirely biochemical or hormonal or the like. While religious belief and prayer ''does'' have some positive effect on depression or anxiety for ''some'' believers, believers and religious groups ''can'' provide needed social support, some religious groups can also inflict such pervasive emotional and/or financial abuse that they worsen or even cause depression and suicide, can drive people (especially those who are LGBTQ) to believe they are "sinful" and "evil" or "not "sinful"/"evil"/"not doing enough," enough" or add a religious element to the depression/suicidality such as "God hates me" or "I deserve hell." hell". Religious belief ''can'' be helpful to those who already have it and/or who are seeking it for the reasons of prayer/meditation/ritual being comforting and social support via meetings/assemblies/etcetera, but it isn't a cure-all, can make things worse, worse and having depression doesn't mean you're unspiritual or a "sinner" or lack faith. Also, if a religious group offers to heal your mind but ''requires'' or insists on increasingly large financial donations to help you, this is a red flag of something that ''can'' drive people to suicide and definitely won't help.
*** Also, if you are severely depressed (or alternately, in a manic or psychotic episode), while you may be pondering religious ideas or thoughts, you are likely not of a sound enough mind to choose a religion or belief system wisely, and wisely. You should wait until you are in a better frame of mind. Many highly demanding/outright demanding or even outright abusive or fraudulent religious sects actively recruit mentally ill/mentally troubled people, and in ill/troubled people. In such a state you ''are'' more vulnerable to making very bad decisions.



** Despite what the GranolaGirl and AllNaturalSnakeOil provider will tell you, committing to a more natural lifestyle is also not an instant depression cure. While exercise ''is'' a valuable tool for depression and anxiety relief (studies have proven exercise is as valuable as SSRI antidepressants to overcoming depression), and sunshine (unless you suffer from porphyria) and fresh air and a good diet etcetera will make you feel better, none are cure-alls, some parts of the "more natural lifestyle" can become just as bad at guilt-inducing as religion, by making you feel guilty for "not doing enough" or "not being natural enough," and moving to a farm or collective or isolated location might worsen depression or anxiety via isolation and financial restriction, and possibly provide better access to firearms, dangerous machinery, or poisons. If you are so depressed you are suicidal, "going natural" won't, in and of itself, fix it.
** Positive thoughts and "faith" and manifestation ''CANNOT'' fix suicidal depression, because a suicidally depressed person ''physically cannot'' maintain positive thinking, especially in the absence of anything realistic to be positive or happy about, as such things as "The Secret" and prosperity faith healers demand that one do. This does not make them a bad or evil person, a "black hole of negativity," it is simply part of the pain they are suffering, and to tell people that if only they could think positively all their problems would be solved and they'd be able to manifest a new boyfriend, millions of dollars in the bank, and perfect health (among other things) is offensive and can be triggering and suicide-inducing if they believe it (and therefore blame themselves and hate themselves and feel guilty that they can't, or can't maintain it in the face of no proof of improvement). It's the equivalent of telling someone with major injuries from a car accident or fall to just get up and go run the Ironman Triathalon and believe they weren't ever hurt in the first place.
*** If preventing suicide was as easy as "thinking positively," and "having faith," bipolar 1 manic episodes would have ''zero'' suicide risk - as opposed to the ''increased'' risk of suicide that they actually have. Persons who are manic are definitely thinking positively and having faith (in fact, ''too much'' of both - it's called "grandiosity" and a "feeling of invincibility"), ''so much'' that it is out of touch with reality and that they are likely to commit accidental suicide by taking risks that have a large chance of death (e.g. believing they can walk on a freeway without being hit by cars, using firearms with no regard for [[UsefulNotes/GunSafety safe practices]], believing they are truly physically invincible or simply not thinking of how risky an activity is until they are already risking their life).


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** Despite what the GranolaGirl and AllNaturalSnakeOil provider will tell you, committing to a more natural lifestyle is also not an instant depression cure. While exercise ''is'' a valuable tool for depression and anxiety relief (studies have proven exercise is as valuable as SSRI antidepressants to overcoming depression), depression) and sunshine (unless you suffer from porphyria) and porphyria), fresh air and a good diet etcetera will make you feel better, none are cure-alls, some parts of the "more natural lifestyle" can become just as bad at guilt-inducing as religion, religion by making you feel guilty for "not doing enough" or "not enough"/"not being natural enough," enough" and moving to a farm or collective or isolated location might worsen depression or anxiety via isolation and financial restriction, restriction and possibly provide better access to firearms, dangerous machinery, machinery or poisons. If you are so depressed you are suicidal, "going natural" won't, in and of itself, fix it.
** Positive thoughts and "faith" and manifestation ''CANNOT'' fix suicidal depression, because a depression. A suicidally depressed person ''physically cannot'' maintain positive thinking, especially in the absence of anything realistic to be positive or happy about, as such things as "The Secret" and prosperity faith healers demand that one do. This does not make them a bad or evil person, person or a "black hole of negativity," it negativity". It is simply part of the pain they are suffering, and to suffering. To tell people that if only they could think positively all their problems would be solved and they'd be able to manifest a new boyfriend, millions of dollars in the bank, bank and perfect health (among other things) is offensive and can be triggering and suicide-inducing if they believe it (and therefore (leading them to blame themselves and hate themselves and feel guilty that they can't, can't do it or can't maintain it in the face of no proof of improvement). It's the equivalent of telling someone with major injuries from a car accident or fall to just get up and go run the Ironman Triathalon and believe they weren't ever hurt in the first place.
*** If preventing suicide was as easy as "thinking positively," and "having faith," bipolar 1 manic episodes would have ''zero'' suicide risk - as opposed to the ''increased'' risk of suicide that they actually have. Persons Persons, who are in a manic state are definitely thinking positively and having faith (in fact, ''too much'' of both faith and positive thoughts - it's called "grandiosity" and a "feeling of invincibility"), invincibility" - ''so much'' much so'' that it is out of touch with reality and that they are likely to commit accidental suicide by taking risks that have a large chance of death (e.g. believing they can walk on a freeway without being hit by cars, using firearms with no regard for [[UsefulNotes/GunSafety safe practices]], believing they are truly physically invincible or simply not thinking of how risky an activity is until they are already risking their life).




* '''Changes in consumption of alcohol, recreational drugs, work hours, and/or forms of escapism.''' This is a more recently recognized sign, and one that appears to be more common among adult athletes, entertainers, musicians, doctors, lawyers and law enforcement, high-level business and finance workers, and others who live high-stress and yet relatively high income and high access to any or all of said options for escape. Much like overeating and under eating and oversleeping and insomnia, either side of the coin can be present. for example, one depressed / suicidal musician might lock himself in his studio and work nonstop using work to avoid the pain, and another who used to work nearly nonstop might suddenly quit and do no work at all. Or a lawyer who drank relatively little to begin with might go OffTheWagon, or alternately, a lawyer known for heavy drinking suddenly goes sober and begins self-recrimination as a part of "recovery." The key here is major changes ''either way'' that are either not connected to any apparent reason ''or'' that are tied to an obvious triggering event.

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* '''Changes in consumption of alcohol, recreational drugs, work hours, and/or forms of escapism.''' This is a more recently recognized sign, sign and one that appears to be more common among adult athletes, entertainers, musicians, doctors, lawyers and law enforcement, high-level business and finance workers, and others who live high-stress and yet relatively high income and high access to any or all of said options for escape. Much like overeating and under eating and oversleeping and insomnia, either side of the coin can be present. for For example, one depressed / suicidal musician might lock himself in his studio and work nonstop using work to avoid the pain, pain and another who used to work nearly nonstop might suddenly quit and do no work at all. Or a A lawyer who drank relatively little to begin with might go OffTheWagon, or OffTheWagon or, alternately, a lawyer known for heavy drinking suddenly goes sober and begins self-recrimination as a part of "recovery." The key here is major changes ''either way'' that are either not connected to any apparent reason ''or'' that are tied to an obvious triggering event.



It should be noted that a great deal of depression and suicide involves appearances and (often) self-imposed pressures: Depression stems from both an inability to express emotions and the underlying, if warped, desire to protect their loved ones from such "unsafe" or "wrong" emotions. The major issue during therapy is that the ''person'' accepts that they have a problem, that they need help, and that the steps for returning to normal will not happen right away. Generally, a good therapist will help their client figure most of it out by themselves instead of trying to set deadlines or goals for them. This is also why therapy is overwhelmingly one-on-one or in groups of fellow sufferers, rather than with family members or friends--the emotional involvement would impede the person's progress for a number of reasons.

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It should be noted that a great deal of depression and suicide involves appearances and (often) self-imposed pressures: Depression stems from both an inability to express emotions and the underlying, if warped, desire to protect their loved ones from such "unsafe" or "wrong" emotions. The major issue during therapy is that the ''person'' accepts that they have a problem, that they need help, help and that the steps for returning to normal will not happen right away. Generally, a good therapist will help their client figure most of it out by themselves instead of trying to set deadlines or goals for them. This is also why therapy is overwhelmingly one-on-one or in groups of fellow sufferers, rather than with family members or friends--the emotional involvement would impede the person's progress for a number of reasons.
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