History UsefulNotes / AtomicBombingsOfHiroshimaAndNagasaki

12th Nov '17 2:48:21 AM EDP
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* Alluded to in the ComicBook/MickeyMouseComicUniverse story "The Delta Dimension", where professor Einmug, whose own nuclear technology gave him a floating island (among other things) in ''1936'', uses the bombings as evidence [[TheWorldIsNotReady he had been right to drop from the radar without sharing his inventions at the end of his first appearance]].
5th Nov '17 12:22:45 AM Pendrake
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* Due to the Cold War having already started, also to warn the numerically superior Soviet Union off from any direct invasions, as both bomb blasts were well within visual range of a large amount of Soviet troops stationed in Manchuria, just across the strait from Japan, which were a large part of the Japanese willingness to surrender.
1st Sep '17 7:43:51 PM Jhonny
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Even this did not stop the faction of hardliners in the Japanese government. That night, a cadre of senior Japanese officers attempted to launch a coup d'etat, storming the Imperial palace in an attempt to secure (ie arrest) the Emperor and destroy the surrender message. At the same time, General Anami, one of the hard-liners that the conspirators had attempted to enlist in support, committed suicide. Without his support and the support of the Japanese army, the coup quickly collapsed, with all the conspirators committing suicide the morning of the 15th of August. The surrender message was broadcast the same day as planned.

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Even this did not stop the faction of hardliners in the Japanese government. That night, a cadre of senior Japanese officers attempted to launch a coup d'etat, storming the Imperial palace in an attempt to secure (ie (i.e. arrest) the Emperor and destroy the surrender message. At the same time, General Anami, one of the hard-liners that the conspirators had attempted to enlist in support, committed suicide. Without his support and the support of the Japanese army, the coup quickly collapsed, with all the conspirators committing suicide the morning of the 15th of August. The surrender message was broadcast the same day as planned.
1st Sep '17 7:38:29 PM Jhonny
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Knowing very well how close they were to total defeat, the Cabinet was split between those who wanted to surrender and those who wanted to fight to the death. The latter were a smaller group, but the former faction was evenly split between those who wanted to surrender ''now'' and those who wanted to [[InsistentTerminology "negotiate an end to the war."]] In any case, peace negotiations were ongoing throughout 1945, but they followed a familiar pattern, with the Japanese insisting on totally unrealistic conditions while the Americans continually refused anything less than unconditional surrender. The Japanese insisted upon the retention of the Emperor as Supreme Head of State (with full powers), that there would be no occupation, that Japanese disarmament would not be controlled by the Allies, and that it would try its own war criminals. The Americans saw no reason to give Japan any leeway. Germany had already surrendered unconditionally - so must Japan.

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Knowing very well how close they were to total defeat, the Cabinet was split between those who wanted to surrender and those who wanted to fight to the death. The latter were a smaller group, but the former faction was evenly split between those who wanted to surrender ''now'' and those who wanted to [[InsistentTerminology "negotiate an end to the war."]] In any case, peace negotiations were ongoing throughout 1945, but they followed a familiar pattern, with the Japanese insisting on totally unrealistic conditions while the Americans continually refused anything less than unconditional surrender. The Japanese insisted upon the retention of the Emperor as Supreme Head of State (with full powers), that there would be no occupation, that Japanese disarmament would not be controlled by the Allies, and that it would try its own war criminals. The Americans saw no reason to give Japan any leeway. Germany had already surrendered unconditionally - so must Japan. \n There may also have been some cultural issues of miscommunication, because what sounded to the Americans as being brushed off or non-committal responses may have been intended as "let's talk about this".
1st Sep '17 7:35:17 PM Jhonny
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The Japanese answer to [[AC:Downfall]] was Operation ''[[AC:Ketsugō]].'' It wasn't hard to guess where the invasion would take place, and Japan began moving more and more troops to southern Kyushu. While the Japanese knew they had no hope of winning the war, they hoped that they could make invasion of the Home Islands too costly for the Allies to attempt. Even at this late stage, Japan retained around 10,000 aircraft. Most would be used as Kamikazes, what the Japanese military then called "Special Attacks" - if for no other reason than their inexperienced pilots weren't good for much else. All Japan's aces had already been killed. Attempting to dog-fight with the Americans was useless. During the Battle of Okinawa, the Japanese Navy had launched 1500 Special Attacks, achieving a hit-rate of around 11% and wounding or killing more than 10,000 U.S. Navy personnel. At Kyushu, due to more favorable terrain, the Japanese hoped for a hit rate of 17%. Furthermore, they would target troop carriers as they ferried men to the beaches, rather than the heavy navy ships, increasing casualties even further. Some Japanese planners optimistically hoped that the Kamikaze forces alone could destroy 1/3 or more of the invasion force ''en route'' to the beaches. [[note]]Unfortunately, the Americans had anticipated this tactic, and if the invasion had gone ahead were planning to launch a 'dummy' invasion force of landing ships ahead of the main invasion, devoid of ground troops but outfitted with an excess of AA-weaponry. [[/note]]

to:

The Japanese answer to [[AC:Downfall]] was Operation ''[[AC:Ketsugō]].'' It wasn't hard to guess where the invasion would take place, and Japan began moving more and more troops to southern Kyushu. While the Japanese knew they had no hope of winning the war, they hoped that they could make invasion of the Home Islands too costly for the Allies to attempt. Even at this late stage, Japan retained around 10,000 aircraft. Most would be used as Kamikazes, what the Japanese military then called "Special Attacks" - if for no other reason than their inexperienced pilots weren't good for much else. All Japan's aces had already been killed. Attempting to dog-fight with the Americans was useless. During the Battle of Okinawa, the Japanese Navy had launched 1500 Special Attacks, achieving a hit-rate of around 11% and wounding or killing more than 10,000 U.S. Navy personnel. At Kyushu, due to more favorable terrain, the Japanese hoped for a hit rate of 17%. Furthermore, they would target troop carriers as they ferried men to the beaches, rather than the heavy navy ships, increasing casualties even further. Some Japanese planners optimistically hoped that the Kamikaze forces alone could destroy 1/3 or more of the invasion force ''en route'' to the beaches. [[note]]Unfortunately, [[note]]Unfortunately for the Japanese, the Americans had anticipated this tactic, and if the invasion had gone ahead were planning to launch a 'dummy' invasion force of landing ships ahead of the main invasion, devoid of ground troops but outfitted with an excess of AA-weaponry. [[/note]]
20th Aug '17 3:07:50 AM Jormungar
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Plans were made to use atomic bombs to destroy Japanese defenses and command-and-control centers during the invasion of Kyushu. However later studies showed that their usefulness in this regard would have been limited. While extremely destructive when used against densely packed cities, the much more spread out nature of the battlefield meant that atomic bombs were too heavy to be delivered to targets of opportunity in a timely manner and yet too weak to obliterate an entire battlefield as later thermonuclear weapons could. If they had been used in this manner, lack of knowledge in those days about radiation would have likely lead to widespread radiation poisoning on both sides.



Interestingly, the USA could only have produced 7-9 nuclear weapons by the time of ''Operation Olympic''. The operational effects of the weapons are much debated, with serious questions remaining about their lethality and ability to degrade command-and-control networks given the rate of reliance upon telephone lines and general provision of bomb-shelters. Studies and practical exercises later confirmed that the tactical usefulness of this particular type of weapon was limited, since it was too heavy to be delivered to targets of opportunity in a timely manner and yet too weak to obliterate an entire battlefield as a megaton-range 'thermonuclear' weapon (of a similar size and bulk, yet utilising nuclear fusion to produce a yield many hundreds or thousands of times more powerful) could. Instead, studies recommended a proliferation of less-powerful weapons such as the US Army's ''Davy Crocket'' Nuclear Artillery shells. Today only Russia and the USA possess such low-yield 'tactical' nuclear weapons.
20th Aug '17 2:47:57 AM Jormungar
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Because of Japanese-Soviet neutrality, the Japanese government hoped that perhaps the Soviet Union could act as a neutral party and mediate an end to the war between Japan and the United States, though these hopes were misplaced and ultimately came to nothing. Towards the end of the war in Europe, the Americans used the promise of continued Lend-lease delivers to effectively bribe the Soviets into to entering the war against Japan - notably, they promised to deliver some of the rations and trucks that the invasion force would need directly to Vladivostok, to reduce the numbers which would have to be driven there or transported by rail from western Europe (more than 10,000km). At the Yalta Conference Stalin finally agreed to join the war against Japan three months after the capitulation of Germany.

to:

Because of Japanese-Soviet neutrality, the Japanese government hoped that perhaps the Soviet Union could act as a neutral party and mediate an end to the war between Japan and the United States, though these hopes were misplaced and ultimately came to nothing. Towards the end of the war in Europe, the Americans used convinced the Soviets to enter the war against Japan with the promise of continued Lend-lease delivers to effectively bribe the Soviets into to entering the war against Japan Lend-Lease deliveries - notably, specifically, they promised to deliver some of the rations and trucks that the invasion force would need directly to Vladivostok, to reduce the numbers which would have to be driven there or transported by rail from western Europe (more than 10,000km). At the Yalta Conference Stalin finally agreed to join the war against Japan three months after the capitulation of Germany.
20th Aug '17 2:40:32 AM Jormungar
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The Japanese answer to [[AC:Downfall]] was Operation ''[[AC:Ketsugō]].'' It wasn't hard to guess where the invasion would take place, and Japan began moving more and more troops to southern Kyushu. While the Japanese knew they had no hope of winning the war, they hoped that they could make invasion of the Home Islands too costly for the Allies to attempt. Even at this late stage, Japan retained around 10,000 aircraft. Most would be used as Kamikazes, what the Japanese military then called "Special Attacks" - if for no other reason than their inexperienced pilots weren't good for much else. All Japan's aces had already been killed. Attempting to dog-fight with the Americans was useless. During the Battle of Okinawa, the Japanese Navy had launched 1500 Special Attacks, achieving a hit-rate of around 11% and wounding or killing more than 10,000 U.S. Navy personnel. At Kyushu, due to more favorable terrain, the Japanese hoped for a hit rate of 17%. Furthermore, they would target troop carriers as they ferried men to the beaches, rather than the heavy navy ships, increasing casualties even further. Some Japanese planners rather optimistically opined that the Kamikaze forces alone could destroy 1/3 or more of the invasion force ''en route'' to the beaches.

Of course, this number was excessively optimistic, and moreover the Americans had anticipated this strategy and laid plans to launch a 'dummy' invasion force of landing ships devoid of ground troops and outfitted with an excess of AA-weaponry to spring this particular trap.

to:

The Japanese answer to [[AC:Downfall]] was Operation ''[[AC:Ketsugō]].'' It wasn't hard to guess where the invasion would take place, and Japan began moving more and more troops to southern Kyushu. While the Japanese knew they had no hope of winning the war, they hoped that they could make invasion of the Home Islands too costly for the Allies to attempt. Even at this late stage, Japan retained around 10,000 aircraft. Most would be used as Kamikazes, what the Japanese military then called "Special Attacks" - if for no other reason than their inexperienced pilots weren't good for much else. All Japan's aces had already been killed. Attempting to dog-fight with the Americans was useless. During the Battle of Okinawa, the Japanese Navy had launched 1500 Special Attacks, achieving a hit-rate of around 11% and wounding or killing more than 10,000 U.S. Navy personnel. At Kyushu, due to more favorable terrain, the Japanese hoped for a hit rate of 17%. Furthermore, they would target troop carriers as they ferried men to the beaches, rather than the heavy navy ships, increasing casualties even further. Some Japanese planners rather optimistically opined hoped that the Kamikaze forces alone could destroy 1/3 or more of the invasion force ''en route'' to the beaches.

Of course, this number was excessively optimistic, and moreover
beaches. [[note]]Unfortunately, the Americans had anticipated this strategy tactic, and laid plans if the invasion had gone ahead were planning to launch a 'dummy' invasion force of landing ships ahead of the main invasion, devoid of ground troops and but outfitted with an excess of AA-weaponry to spring this particular trap.
AA-weaponry. [[/note]]
20th Aug '17 2:36:28 AM Jormungar
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The Japanese answer to [[AC:Downfall]] was Operation ''[[AC:Ketsugō]].'' It wasn't hard to guess where the invasion would take place, and Japan began moving more and more troops to southern Kyushu. While the Japanese knew they had no hope of winning the war, they hoped that they could make invasion of the Home Islands too costly for the Allies to attempt. Even at this late stage, Japan retained around 10,000 aircraft. Most would be used in what the Japanese military then called "Special Attacks" - if for no other reason than their inexperienced pilots weren't good for much else. All Japan's aces had already been killed. Attempting to dog-fight with the Americans was useless. During the Battle of Okinawa, the Japanese Navy had launched 1500 Special Attacks, achieving a hit-rate of around 11% and wounding or killing more than 10,000 U.S. Navy personnel. At Kyushu, due to more favorable terrain, the Japanese hoped for a hit rate of 17%. Furthermore, they would target troop carriers as they ferried men to the beaches, rather than the heavy navy ships, increasing casualties even further. Some Japanese planners rather optimistically opined that the Kamikaze forces alone could destroy 1/3 or more of the invasion force ''en route'' to the beaches.

to:

The Japanese answer to [[AC:Downfall]] was Operation ''[[AC:Ketsugō]].'' It wasn't hard to guess where the invasion would take place, and Japan began moving more and more troops to southern Kyushu. While the Japanese knew they had no hope of winning the war, they hoped that they could make invasion of the Home Islands too costly for the Allies to attempt. Even at this late stage, Japan retained around 10,000 aircraft. Most would be used in as Kamikazes, what the Japanese military then called "Special Attacks" - if for no other reason than their inexperienced pilots weren't good for much else. All Japan's aces had already been killed. Attempting to dog-fight with the Americans was useless. During the Battle of Okinawa, the Japanese Navy had launched 1500 Special Attacks, achieving a hit-rate of around 11% and wounding or killing more than 10,000 U.S. Navy personnel. At Kyushu, due to more favorable terrain, the Japanese hoped for a hit rate of 17%. Furthermore, they would target troop carriers as they ferried men to the beaches, rather than the heavy navy ships, increasing casualties even further. Some Japanese planners rather optimistically opined that the Kamikaze forces alone could destroy 1/3 or more of the invasion force ''en route'' to the beaches.
20th Aug '17 2:29:35 AM Jormungar
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With hindsight it is easy to forget, but nobody at the time knew the war was about to end. By the best estimates, the war against Japan was expected to continue 18 months after the German surrender, with Operation [[AC:Downfall]] scheduled to not even begin until November 1945, with fighting expected to continue until 1947. Therefore the Allies made their decisions not in a context of "This is almost over," but rather in the face of what promised to be an ''escalation'' of the Pacific War unlike anything they had yet seen. The American public was becoming restless at the cost of the war already. It would have been inconceivable at the time, when tens of millions of Europeans and Asians had died as well as hundreds of thousands of Americans, to refuse to use a bomb that could end the war for fear of "killing too many people."

to:

With hindsight it is easy to forget, but nobody at the time knew the war was about to end. By the best estimates, the war against Japan was expected to continue 18 months after the German surrender, with Operation [[AC:Downfall]] scheduled to not even begin until November 1945, with fighting expected to continue until 1947. Therefore the Allies made their decisions not in a context of of, "This is almost over," but rather in the face of what promised to be an ''escalation'' of the Pacific War unlike anything they had yet seen. The American public was becoming restless at the cost of the war already. It would have been inconceivable at the time, when tens of millions of Europeans and Asians had died as well as hundreds of thousands of Americans, to refuse to use a bomb that could end the war for fear of "killing too many people."
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