History SlidingScaleOfIdealismVersusCynicism / ComicBooks

26th Mar '17 9:09:19 AM nombretomado
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* In the Idealism extreme, we have Piffany from ''{{Nodwick}}'', who believes that everything is goodness and light, despite the evidence displayed by her fellow party members. Nodwick himself is justifiably much more cynical.

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* In the Idealism extreme, we have Piffany from ''{{Nodwick}}'', ''{{ComicStrip/Nodwick}}'', who believes that everything is goodness and light, despite the evidence displayed by her fellow party members. Nodwick himself is justifiably much more cynical.
18th Sep '16 8:09:16 AM Tron80
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* ''{{Comicbook/Watchmen}}'' was written as a deliberate {{Deconstruction}} of more idealistic comic book superheroes, the idealism of superheroes, and the superhero genre in general. It shows what would really inspire people to go out in ridiculous, often-times skimpy uniforms and beat the crud out of other people, and one of the characters quite intentionally [[KnightTemplar crosses the line]] separating idealistic superheroism from deluded vigilante action.

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* ''{{Comicbook/Watchmen}}'' was written as a deliberate {{Deconstruction}} of more idealistic comic book superheroes, the idealism of superheroes, and the superhero genre in general. It shows what would really might inspire people to go out in ridiculous, often-times skimpy uniforms and beat the crud out of other people, and one of the characters quite intentionally [[KnightTemplar crosses the line]] separating idealistic superheroism from deluded vigilante action.



--> '''Creator/AlanMoore''': "Having deconstructed everything perhaps we really should be starting to think about [[{{Reconstruction}} putting everything back together]]."

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--> ---> '''Creator/AlanMoore''': "Having deconstructed everything perhaps we really should be starting to think about [[{{Reconstruction}} putting everything back together]]."



* ''JLA Classified'' # 3. Comicbook/{{Superman}} tells the International Ultramarine Corps (a pastiche of cynical superhero teams) that "These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of [[EverythingsBetterWithMonkeys jet-powered apes]] and TimeTravel," and gives them the chance to go to a baby universe troubled by "cynical" problems.

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* ''JLA Classified'' [[Franchise/JusticeLeagueOfAmerica JLA Classified]] # 3. Comicbook/{{Superman}} Franchise/{{Superman}} tells the International Ultramarine Corps (a pastiche of cynical superhero teams) that "These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of [[EverythingsBetterWithMonkeys jet-powered apes]] and TimeTravel," and gives them the chance to go to a baby universe troubled by "cynical" problems.



* The scale is examined very effectively in the ''{{Comicbook/Superman}}'' comic "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice And The American Way?" Of course, being about the original [[TheCape Cape]] himself, the conclusions it raises fall squarely on the idealistic side of the scale, but it's a well-written story nonetheless.

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* The scale is examined very effectively in the ''{{Comicbook/Superman}}'' Franchise/{{Superman}} comic "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice And The American Way?" Of course, being about the original [[TheCape Cape]] himself, the conclusions it raises fall squarely on the idealistic side of the scale, but it's a well-written story nonetheless.nonetheless.
* In ''ComicBook/ElseworldsFinestSupergirlAndBatgirl'', baby Kal-El died instead of growing up and becoming Franchise/{{Superman}} and Bruce wayne never became Franchise/{{Batman}}. As a result of it, the world is a darker place: ''Comicbook/LexLuthor'' manipulates the Justice Society to his heart's content, and ''Comicbook/{{Batgirl}}'' has turned Gotham into her own nation-state. However, ''Comicbook/{{Supergirl}}'' is very trusting and idealistic as opposite to Batgirl who is pretty cynical and mistrustful. Batgirl's cynical visions appear to be validated when Luthor reveals his true self, but she refuses to let Supergirl kill him and drop to his level because she thinks that Kara represents "Hope".



** The formerly-{{canon}} version of Comicbook/{{Superman}} has killed precisely once, during UsefulNotes/{{the Dark Age|OfComicBooks}}, in order to ShootTheDog on three Kryptonians from an AlternateUniverse. Since then, writers have either [[CanonDisContinuity ignored this]], or have him regard it as a mistake that made his self-imposed prohibition against killing even stronger in response. As of current canon, Superman has never killed anyone.
** WonderWoman on the other hand in modern times is a classically trained warrior who is ready to use deadly force if necessary. For instance, former ally Max Lord gains mind control powers and uses them to make Superman try to kill everyone; when Wondy asks him what will make him stop, Max tells her to kill him, and she does. The event is broadcast worldwide to the public by Max's spy cameras and severely hurts Wondy's reputation.

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** The formerly-{{canon}} version of Comicbook/{{Superman}} Franchise/{{Superman}} has killed precisely once, during UsefulNotes/{{the Dark Age|OfComicBooks}}, in order to ShootTheDog on three Kryptonians from an AlternateUniverse. Since then, writers have either [[CanonDisContinuity ignored this]], or have him regard it as a mistake that made his self-imposed prohibition against killing even stronger in response. As of current canon, Superman has never killed anyone.
** WonderWoman Franchise/WonderWoman on the other hand in modern times is a classically trained warrior who is ready to use deadly force if necessary. For instance, former ally Max Lord gains mind control powers and uses them to make Superman try to kill everyone; when Wondy asks him what will make him stop, Max tells her to kill him, and she does. The event is broadcast worldwide to the public by Max's spy cameras and severely hurts Wondy's reputation.



** Similarly, the Marvel Universe seems to take AllOfTheOtherReindeer as a guiding principle for their sustained "realism", and has since TheSeventies. DC is leaning toward this of late as well. I understand there is prejudice in the world, but one may wonder how much distrust of the abnormal can lead people to abandon all ethics, principles, and even senses of self-preservation.

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** Similarly, the Marvel Universe seems to take AllOfTheOtherReindeer as a guiding principle for their sustained "realism", and has since TheSeventies. DC is leaning toward this of late as well. I understand Even though there is prejudice in the world, but one may wonder how much distrust of the abnormal can lead people to abandon all ethics, principles, and even senses of self-preservation.
2nd Aug '16 6:27:37 PM nombretomado
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* For a good long while, a major selling point of the MarvelUniverse in general was that their characters were more realistic (read: cynical) than in TheDCU; of course, they were often just as ''implausible'' in nature, but Marvel's characters often possessed more character flaws and personal issues than the idealistically "perfect" heroes in DC. These days, given forty odd years of CharacterDevelopment and competition since Marvel first hit it big, this distinction isn't quite as significant as once it was; unfortunately, both companies have a tendency to instead plunge into [[TrueArtIsAngsty whichever side of the scale that will make their characters more angsty]].

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* For a good long while, a major selling point of the MarvelUniverse Franchise/MarvelUniverse in general was that their characters were more realistic (read: cynical) than in TheDCU; Franchise/TheDCU; of course, they were often just as ''implausible'' in nature, but Marvel's characters often possessed more character flaws and personal issues than the idealistically "perfect" heroes in DC. These days, given forty odd years of CharacterDevelopment and competition since Marvel first hit it big, this distinction isn't quite as significant as once it was; unfortunately, both companies have a tendency to instead plunge into [[TrueArtIsAngsty whichever side of the scale that will make their characters more angsty]].
26th Apr '16 6:42:52 PM KingNine
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* This is the driving point in the ''ComicBook/AllNewAllDifferentMarvel'' series ''[[ComicBook/TheFalcon Sam Wilson]]: ComicBook/CaptainAmerica'': After learning that S.H.I.E.L.D. had been hiding a number of secrets when they are revealed in a Wikileaks-styled fashion, Sam decides to stop being bipartisan and take a side politics-wise as well as quit S.H.I.E.L.D. The split is easily seen when Steve Rogers, the original Captain America and a fellow opponent of the Kobik Initiative, tries to talk Sam out of it and assure him that things will get better in the end. As Sam points out, Steve firmly believes that, when at its darkest hour, the U.S. government and people will do the right thing (idealism), while Sam only ''hopes'' that they can (cynicism). This comes back to bite Steve over in ''ComicBook/AvengersStandoff'' when he finds out that [[spoiler:S.H.I.E.L.D. [[MetaphoricallyTrue technically did shut down the project]]... then just turned it into
[[StepfordSuburbia Pleasant Hill]].]]

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* This is the driving point in the ''ComicBook/AllNewAllDifferentMarvel'' series ''[[ComicBook/TheFalcon Sam Wilson]]: ComicBook/CaptainAmerica'': After learning that S.H.I.E.L.D. had been hiding a number of secrets when they are revealed in a Wikileaks-styled fashion, Sam decides to stop being bipartisan and take a side politics-wise as well as quit S.H.I.E.L.D. The split is easily seen when Steve Rogers, the original Captain America and a fellow opponent of the Kobik Initiative, tries to talk Sam out of it and assure him that things will get better in the end. As Sam points out, Steve firmly believes that, when at its darkest hour, the U.S. government and people will do the right thing (idealism), while Sam only ''hopes'' that they can (cynicism). This comes back to bite Steve over in ''ComicBook/AvengersStandoff'' when he finds out that [[spoiler:S.H.I.E.L.D. [[MetaphoricallyTrue technically did shut down the project]]... then just turned it into
into [[StepfordSuburbia Pleasant Hill]].]]
26th Apr '16 6:42:13 PM KingNine
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* This is the driving point in the ''ComicBook/AllNewAllDifferentMarvel'' series ''[[ComicBook/TheFalcon Sam Wilson]]: ComicBook/CaptainAmerica'': After learning that S.H.I.E.L.D. had been hiding a number of secrets when they are revealed in a Wikileaks-styled fashion, Sam decides to stop being bipartisan and take a side politics-wise as well as quit S.H.I.E.L.D. The split is easily seen when Steve Rogers, the original Captain America and a fellow opponent of the Kobik Initiative, tries to talk Sam out of it and assure him that things will get better in the end. As Sam points out, Steve firmly believes that, when at its darkest hour, the U.S. government and people will do the right thing (idealism), while Sam only ''hopes'' that they can (cynicism). This comes back to bite Steve over in ''ComicBook/AvengersStandoff'' when he finds out that [[spoiler:S.H.I.E.L.D. [[MetaphoricallyTrue technically did shut down the project]]... then just turned it into [[StepfordSuburbia Pleasant Hill]].]]

to:

* This is the driving point in the ''ComicBook/AllNewAllDifferentMarvel'' series ''[[ComicBook/TheFalcon Sam Wilson]]: ComicBook/CaptainAmerica'': After learning that S.H.I.E.L.D. had been hiding a number of secrets when they are revealed in a Wikileaks-styled fashion, Sam decides to stop being bipartisan and take a side politics-wise as well as quit S.H.I.E.L.D. The split is easily seen when Steve Rogers, the original Captain America and a fellow opponent of the Kobik Initiative, tries to talk Sam out of it and assure him that things will get better in the end. As Sam points out, Steve firmly believes that, when at its darkest hour, the U.S. government and people will do the right thing (idealism), while Sam only ''hopes'' that they can (cynicism). This comes back to bite Steve over in ''ComicBook/AvengersStandoff'' when he finds out that [[spoiler:S.H.I.E.L.D. [[MetaphoricallyTrue technically did shut down the project]]... then just turned it into into
[[StepfordSuburbia Pleasant Hill]].]]]]
* ''ComicBook/TheAutumnlandsToothAndClaw'' Has this as a central conflict with its main heroes Learoyd and Dusty. Dusty is a wide-eyed idealist through and through. He wants to help everyone in need regardless of their affiliations or deeds and has a strong sense of what is right and wrong. Learoyd is extremely cynical, morally questionable, and self-centered. He'll save a life if it suits him and even then he'll most likely be a cold jerk about it. The series often draws attention to the pros and cons of the two modes.
5th Apr '16 11:07:36 AM Morgenthaler
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* SinCity is heavily cynical but so over-the-top that it's part of its charm.

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* SinCity ComicBook/SinCity is heavily cynical but so over-the-top that it's part of its charm.
7th Mar '16 10:02:06 PM Blazer
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* This is the driving point in the ''ComicBook/AllNewAllDifferentMarvel'' series ''[[ComicBook/TheFalcon Sam Wilson]]: ComicBook/CaptainAmerica'': After learning that S.H.I.E.L.D. had been hiding a number of secrets when they are revealed in a Wikileaks-styled fashion, Sam decides to stop being bipartisan and take a side politics-wise as well as quit S.H.I.E.L.D. The split is easily seen when Steve Rogers, the original Captain America and a fellow opponent of the Kobik Initiative, tries to talk Sam out of it and assure him that things will get better in the end. As Sam points out, Steve firmly believes that, when at its darkest hour, the U.S. government and people will do the right thing (idealism), while Sam only ''hopes'' that they can (cynicism).

to:

* This is the driving point in the ''ComicBook/AllNewAllDifferentMarvel'' series ''[[ComicBook/TheFalcon Sam Wilson]]: ComicBook/CaptainAmerica'': After learning that S.H.I.E.L.D. had been hiding a number of secrets when they are revealed in a Wikileaks-styled fashion, Sam decides to stop being bipartisan and take a side politics-wise as well as quit S.H.I.E.L.D. The split is easily seen when Steve Rogers, the original Captain America and a fellow opponent of the Kobik Initiative, tries to talk Sam out of it and assure him that things will get better in the end. As Sam points out, Steve firmly believes that, when at its darkest hour, the U.S. government and people will do the right thing (idealism), while Sam only ''hopes'' that they can (cynicism). This comes back to bite Steve over in ''ComicBook/AvengersStandoff'' when he finds out that [[spoiler:S.H.I.E.L.D. [[MetaphoricallyTrue technically did shut down the project]]... then just turned it into [[StepfordSuburbia Pleasant Hill]].]]
12th Jan '16 10:57:40 AM AHI-3000
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* ''ComicStrip/TheBoondocks'' is a relentlessly cynical {{satire}} comic about black people, and the unstoppable nature of corporate greed.
9th Jan '16 11:12:43 AM AHI-3000
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* ''{{Boondocks}}'' is a relentlessly cynical {{satire}} comic about Black people and the unstoppable nature of corporate greed and Blaxploitation.

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* ''{{Boondocks}}'' ''ComicStrip/TheBoondocks'' is a relentlessly cynical {{satire}} comic about Black people black people, and the unstoppable nature of corporate greed and Blaxploitation.greed.
6th Jan '16 10:14:23 PM Doug86
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** There are a few authors who will completely ignore this principle when writing in the DCU; FrankMiller is probably the best-known example.
** There is one current superheroine with which this completely does not apply: {{Comicbook/Manhunter}}. In her first appearance, she killed Copperhead and has never regretted it. In fact, even people who know her secret identity aren't bothered by it - probably because of the fact that Copperhead was a mass murderer and had just slaughtered a bunch of cops. [[ComicBook/BirdsOfPrey She's even teamed up with Oracle]], been the lawyer of WonderWoman, and has consulted Batman and Superman for help before.

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** There are a few authors who will completely ignore this principle when writing in the DCU; FrankMiller Creator/FrankMiller is probably the best-known example.
** There is one current superheroine with which this completely does not apply: {{Comicbook/Manhunter}}.Comicbook/{{Manhunter}}. In her first appearance, she killed Copperhead and has never regretted it. In fact, even people who know her secret identity aren't bothered by it - probably because of the fact that Copperhead was a mass murderer and had just slaughtered a bunch of cops. [[ComicBook/BirdsOfPrey She's even teamed up with Oracle]], been the lawyer of WonderWoman, and has consulted Batman and Superman for help before.
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