History SlidingScaleOfIdealismVersusCynicism / ComicBooks

16th Aug '17 6:24:55 PM MagiMecha
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* ''ComicBook/DetectiveComicsRebirth'' has this discussion concerning [[spoiler:the FaceHeelTurn of Stephanie Brown. Grieving at the presumed death of Tim Drake, she takes a idealistic leaning and decides the best way to prevent such a thing is to eradicate the need for the Batman. She believes by bringing back the GCPD to the point where they don't need the Bat-Family anymore, she can prevent the creation of villains drawn to Gotham by his presence and they can retire and never have to don the costumes ever again. However, the Bat-Family takes a cynical approach and points out that even if they did that, someone would still show up, they just won't have a Bat to face him.]]
17th Jul '17 8:56:28 PM project13Kr
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* This is the driving point in the ''ComicBook/AllNewAllDifferentMarvel'' series ''[[ComicBook/TheFalcon Sam Wilson]]: ComicBook/CaptainAmerica'': After learning that S.H.I.E.L.D. had been hiding a number of secrets when they are revealed in a Wikileaks-styled fashion, Sam decides to stop being bipartisan and take a side politics-wise as well as quit S.H.I.E.L.D. The split is easily seen when Steve Rogers, the original Captain America and a fellow opponent of the Kobik Initiative, tries to talk Sam out of it and assure him that things will get better in the end. As Sam points out, Steve firmly believes that, when at its darkest hour, the U.S. government and people will do the right thing (idealism), while Sam only ''hopes'' that they can (cynicism). This comes back to bite Steve over in ''ComicBook/AvengersStandoff'' when he finds out that [[spoiler:S.H.I.E.L.D. [[MetaphoricallyTrue technically did shut down the project]]... then just turned it into [[StepfordSuburbia Pleasant Hill]].

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* This is the driving point in the ''ComicBook/AllNewAllDifferentMarvel'' series ''[[ComicBook/TheFalcon Sam Wilson]]: ComicBook/CaptainAmerica'': After learning that S.H.I.E.L.D. had been hiding a number of secrets when they are revealed in a Wikileaks-styled fashion, Sam decides to stop being bipartisan and take a side politics-wise as well as quit S.H.I.E.L.D. The split is easily seen when Steve Rogers, the original Captain America and a fellow opponent of the Kobik Initiative, tries to talk Sam out of it and assure him that things will get better in the end. As Sam points out, Steve firmly believes that, when at its darkest hour, the U.S. government and people will do the right thing (idealism), while Sam only ''hopes'' that they can (cynicism). This comes back to bite Steve over in ''ComicBook/AvengersStandoff'' when he finds out that [[spoiler:S.[[spoiler: S.H.I.E.L.D. [[MetaphoricallyTrue technically did shut down the project]]... then just turned it into [[StepfordSuburbia Pleasant Hill]].Hill]]]].
16th Jun '17 8:13:23 PM NoNamesEver
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** [[Author/NickSpencer Nick Spencer's]] Take on Captain America and Sam Wilsons falls purely cynical. America falls into facism as CaptainAmerica goes through a FaceHeelTurn and Sam Wilson can only watch as his attempts to bring justice constantly end in failure as the Americops abuse their authority.

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** [[Author/NickSpencer Nick Spencer's]] Take on Captain America NickSpencersCaptainAmerica and Sam Wilsons falls purely cynical. America falls into facism as CaptainAmerica goes through a FaceHeelTurn and Sam Wilson can only watch as his attempts to bring justice constantly end in failure as the Americops abuse their authority.
16th Jun '17 8:11:09 PM NoNamesEver
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** [[Author/NickSpencer Nick Spencer's]] Take on Captain America and Sam Wilsons falls purely cynical. America falls into facism as CaptainAmerica goes through a FaceHeelTurn and Sam Wilson can only watch as his attempts to bring justice constantly end in failure as the Americops abuse their authority.
15th Jun '17 4:23:51 PM AlienPatch
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** ''Comicbook/CivilWar'' itself falls heavily into cynicism, though. Particularly through the character of Sally Floyd, who [[SillyRabbitIdealismIsForKids lambasts Captain America for his idealistic beliefs and for not knowing how modern America works]], while also claiming that America is based upon pop culture and mass media rather than in good values. And she says this ''not'' as a criticism on America, but rather as something she considers its nature and what makes it interesting.
26th Mar '17 9:09:19 AM nombretomado
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* In the Idealism extreme, we have Piffany from ''{{Nodwick}}'', who believes that everything is goodness and light, despite the evidence displayed by her fellow party members. Nodwick himself is justifiably much more cynical.

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* In the Idealism extreme, we have Piffany from ''{{Nodwick}}'', ''{{ComicStrip/Nodwick}}'', who believes that everything is goodness and light, despite the evidence displayed by her fellow party members. Nodwick himself is justifiably much more cynical.
18th Sep '16 8:09:16 AM Tron80
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* ''{{Comicbook/Watchmen}}'' was written as a deliberate {{Deconstruction}} of more idealistic comic book superheroes, the idealism of superheroes, and the superhero genre in general. It shows what would really inspire people to go out in ridiculous, often-times skimpy uniforms and beat the crud out of other people, and one of the characters quite intentionally [[KnightTemplar crosses the line]] separating idealistic superheroism from deluded vigilante action.

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* ''{{Comicbook/Watchmen}}'' was written as a deliberate {{Deconstruction}} of more idealistic comic book superheroes, the idealism of superheroes, and the superhero genre in general. It shows what would really might inspire people to go out in ridiculous, often-times skimpy uniforms and beat the crud out of other people, and one of the characters quite intentionally [[KnightTemplar crosses the line]] separating idealistic superheroism from deluded vigilante action.



--> '''Creator/AlanMoore''': "Having deconstructed everything perhaps we really should be starting to think about [[{{Reconstruction}} putting everything back together]]."

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--> ---> '''Creator/AlanMoore''': "Having deconstructed everything perhaps we really should be starting to think about [[{{Reconstruction}} putting everything back together]]."



* ''JLA Classified'' # 3. Comicbook/{{Superman}} tells the International Ultramarine Corps (a pastiche of cynical superhero teams) that "These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of [[EverythingsBetterWithMonkeys jet-powered apes]] and TimeTravel," and gives them the chance to go to a baby universe troubled by "cynical" problems.

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* ''JLA Classified'' [[Franchise/JusticeLeagueOfAmerica JLA Classified]] # 3. Comicbook/{{Superman}} Franchise/{{Superman}} tells the International Ultramarine Corps (a pastiche of cynical superhero teams) that "These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of [[EverythingsBetterWithMonkeys jet-powered apes]] and TimeTravel," and gives them the chance to go to a baby universe troubled by "cynical" problems.



* The scale is examined very effectively in the ''{{Comicbook/Superman}}'' comic "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice And The American Way?" Of course, being about the original [[TheCape Cape]] himself, the conclusions it raises fall squarely on the idealistic side of the scale, but it's a well-written story nonetheless.

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* The scale is examined very effectively in the ''{{Comicbook/Superman}}'' Franchise/{{Superman}} comic "What's So Funny About Truth, Justice And The American Way?" Of course, being about the original [[TheCape Cape]] himself, the conclusions it raises fall squarely on the idealistic side of the scale, but it's a well-written story nonetheless.nonetheless.
* In ''ComicBook/ElseworldsFinestSupergirlAndBatgirl'', baby Kal-El died instead of growing up and becoming Franchise/{{Superman}} and Bruce wayne never became Franchise/{{Batman}}. As a result of it, the world is a darker place: ''Comicbook/LexLuthor'' manipulates the Justice Society to his heart's content, and ''Comicbook/{{Batgirl}}'' has turned Gotham into her own nation-state. However, ''Comicbook/{{Supergirl}}'' is very trusting and idealistic as opposite to Batgirl who is pretty cynical and mistrustful. Batgirl's cynical visions appear to be validated when Luthor reveals his true self, but she refuses to let Supergirl kill him and drop to his level because she thinks that Kara represents "Hope".



** The formerly-{{canon}} version of Comicbook/{{Superman}} has killed precisely once, during UsefulNotes/{{the Dark Age|OfComicBooks}}, in order to ShootTheDog on three Kryptonians from an AlternateUniverse. Since then, writers have either [[CanonDisContinuity ignored this]], or have him regard it as a mistake that made his self-imposed prohibition against killing even stronger in response. As of current canon, Superman has never killed anyone.
** WonderWoman on the other hand in modern times is a classically trained warrior who is ready to use deadly force if necessary. For instance, former ally Max Lord gains mind control powers and uses them to make Superman try to kill everyone; when Wondy asks him what will make him stop, Max tells her to kill him, and she does. The event is broadcast worldwide to the public by Max's spy cameras and severely hurts Wondy's reputation.

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** The formerly-{{canon}} version of Comicbook/{{Superman}} Franchise/{{Superman}} has killed precisely once, during UsefulNotes/{{the Dark Age|OfComicBooks}}, in order to ShootTheDog on three Kryptonians from an AlternateUniverse. Since then, writers have either [[CanonDisContinuity ignored this]], or have him regard it as a mistake that made his self-imposed prohibition against killing even stronger in response. As of current canon, Superman has never killed anyone.
** WonderWoman Franchise/WonderWoman on the other hand in modern times is a classically trained warrior who is ready to use deadly force if necessary. For instance, former ally Max Lord gains mind control powers and uses them to make Superman try to kill everyone; when Wondy asks him what will make him stop, Max tells her to kill him, and she does. The event is broadcast worldwide to the public by Max's spy cameras and severely hurts Wondy's reputation.



** Similarly, the Marvel Universe seems to take AllOfTheOtherReindeer as a guiding principle for their sustained "realism", and has since TheSeventies. DC is leaning toward this of late as well. I understand there is prejudice in the world, but one may wonder how much distrust of the abnormal can lead people to abandon all ethics, principles, and even senses of self-preservation.

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** Similarly, the Marvel Universe seems to take AllOfTheOtherReindeer as a guiding principle for their sustained "realism", and has since TheSeventies. DC is leaning toward this of late as well. I understand Even though there is prejudice in the world, but one may wonder how much distrust of the abnormal can lead people to abandon all ethics, principles, and even senses of self-preservation.
2nd Aug '16 6:27:37 PM nombretomado
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* For a good long while, a major selling point of the MarvelUniverse in general was that their characters were more realistic (read: cynical) than in TheDCU; of course, they were often just as ''implausible'' in nature, but Marvel's characters often possessed more character flaws and personal issues than the idealistically "perfect" heroes in DC. These days, given forty odd years of CharacterDevelopment and competition since Marvel first hit it big, this distinction isn't quite as significant as once it was; unfortunately, both companies have a tendency to instead plunge into [[TrueArtIsAngsty whichever side of the scale that will make their characters more angsty]].

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* For a good long while, a major selling point of the MarvelUniverse Franchise/MarvelUniverse in general was that their characters were more realistic (read: cynical) than in TheDCU; Franchise/TheDCU; of course, they were often just as ''implausible'' in nature, but Marvel's characters often possessed more character flaws and personal issues than the idealistically "perfect" heroes in DC. These days, given forty odd years of CharacterDevelopment and competition since Marvel first hit it big, this distinction isn't quite as significant as once it was; unfortunately, both companies have a tendency to instead plunge into [[TrueArtIsAngsty whichever side of the scale that will make their characters more angsty]].
26th Apr '16 6:42:52 PM KingNine
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* This is the driving point in the ''ComicBook/AllNewAllDifferentMarvel'' series ''[[ComicBook/TheFalcon Sam Wilson]]: ComicBook/CaptainAmerica'': After learning that S.H.I.E.L.D. had been hiding a number of secrets when they are revealed in a Wikileaks-styled fashion, Sam decides to stop being bipartisan and take a side politics-wise as well as quit S.H.I.E.L.D. The split is easily seen when Steve Rogers, the original Captain America and a fellow opponent of the Kobik Initiative, tries to talk Sam out of it and assure him that things will get better in the end. As Sam points out, Steve firmly believes that, when at its darkest hour, the U.S. government and people will do the right thing (idealism), while Sam only ''hopes'' that they can (cynicism). This comes back to bite Steve over in ''ComicBook/AvengersStandoff'' when he finds out that [[spoiler:S.H.I.E.L.D. [[MetaphoricallyTrue technically did shut down the project]]... then just turned it into
[[StepfordSuburbia Pleasant Hill]].]]

to:

* This is the driving point in the ''ComicBook/AllNewAllDifferentMarvel'' series ''[[ComicBook/TheFalcon Sam Wilson]]: ComicBook/CaptainAmerica'': After learning that S.H.I.E.L.D. had been hiding a number of secrets when they are revealed in a Wikileaks-styled fashion, Sam decides to stop being bipartisan and take a side politics-wise as well as quit S.H.I.E.L.D. The split is easily seen when Steve Rogers, the original Captain America and a fellow opponent of the Kobik Initiative, tries to talk Sam out of it and assure him that things will get better in the end. As Sam points out, Steve firmly believes that, when at its darkest hour, the U.S. government and people will do the right thing (idealism), while Sam only ''hopes'' that they can (cynicism). This comes back to bite Steve over in ''ComicBook/AvengersStandoff'' when he finds out that [[spoiler:S.H.I.E.L.D. [[MetaphoricallyTrue technically did shut down the project]]... then just turned it into
into [[StepfordSuburbia Pleasant Hill]].]]
26th Apr '16 6:42:13 PM KingNine
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* This is the driving point in the ''ComicBook/AllNewAllDifferentMarvel'' series ''[[ComicBook/TheFalcon Sam Wilson]]: ComicBook/CaptainAmerica'': After learning that S.H.I.E.L.D. had been hiding a number of secrets when they are revealed in a Wikileaks-styled fashion, Sam decides to stop being bipartisan and take a side politics-wise as well as quit S.H.I.E.L.D. The split is easily seen when Steve Rogers, the original Captain America and a fellow opponent of the Kobik Initiative, tries to talk Sam out of it and assure him that things will get better in the end. As Sam points out, Steve firmly believes that, when at its darkest hour, the U.S. government and people will do the right thing (idealism), while Sam only ''hopes'' that they can (cynicism). This comes back to bite Steve over in ''ComicBook/AvengersStandoff'' when he finds out that [[spoiler:S.H.I.E.L.D. [[MetaphoricallyTrue technically did shut down the project]]... then just turned it into [[StepfordSuburbia Pleasant Hill]].]]

to:

* This is the driving point in the ''ComicBook/AllNewAllDifferentMarvel'' series ''[[ComicBook/TheFalcon Sam Wilson]]: ComicBook/CaptainAmerica'': After learning that S.H.I.E.L.D. had been hiding a number of secrets when they are revealed in a Wikileaks-styled fashion, Sam decides to stop being bipartisan and take a side politics-wise as well as quit S.H.I.E.L.D. The split is easily seen when Steve Rogers, the original Captain America and a fellow opponent of the Kobik Initiative, tries to talk Sam out of it and assure him that things will get better in the end. As Sam points out, Steve firmly believes that, when at its darkest hour, the U.S. government and people will do the right thing (idealism), while Sam only ''hopes'' that they can (cynicism). This comes back to bite Steve over in ''ComicBook/AvengersStandoff'' when he finds out that [[spoiler:S.H.I.E.L.D. [[MetaphoricallyTrue technically did shut down the project]]... then just turned it into into
[[StepfordSuburbia Pleasant Hill]].]]]]
* ''ComicBook/TheAutumnlandsToothAndClaw'' Has this as a central conflict with its main heroes Learoyd and Dusty. Dusty is a wide-eyed idealist through and through. He wants to help everyone in need regardless of their affiliations or deeds and has a strong sense of what is right and wrong. Learoyd is extremely cynical, morally questionable, and self-centered. He'll save a life if it suits him and even then he'll most likely be a cold jerk about it. The series often draws attention to the pros and cons of the two modes.
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