History Quotes / AnimationAgeGhetto

18th Mar '16 2:09:06 PM Willbyr
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->''Mr. Nick! What are you doing watching'' [[WorldMasterpieceTheater Kids' Masterpiece Theatre]]''? You should be watching shows for your own age!''

to:

->''Mr. Nick! What are you doing watching'' [[WorldMasterpieceTheater [[Anime/WorldMasterpieceTheater Kids' Masterpiece Theatre]]''? You should be watching shows for your own age!''
6th Feb '16 11:41:58 PM nombretomado
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From the beginning, cartoons were always made for everyone. [[TheGoldenAgeOfAnimation Since]] TheTwenties [[TheGoldenAgeOfAnimation through]] [[TheSixties Sixties]], animated shorts like the WesternAnimation/LooneyTunes were played in movie theaters and drive-ins before films. Generally, it was for all ages. [[GettingCrapPastTheRadar Occasionally, inappropriate stuff was snuck in.]] [[TheDarkAgeOfAnimation TV later became more prominent.]] Creator/{{Hanna Barbera}}'s studios made animation more and marketable towards children, since they felt adults wouldn't get past their more LimitedAnimation, and that's were the stigma came to be. [[Anime/GhostInTheShell Multiple attempts]] [[WesternAnimation/HeavyMetal have been]] [[Literature/AScannerDarkly made to make]] [[WesternAnimation/{{Nine}} more mature]], [[Manga/{{AKIRA}} theatrical animation]], but never did that break into mainstream success. [[AllAdultAnimationIsSouthPark At most, people accept animation as comedy,]] [[ComedyGhetto and they think there's only comedy in animation.]] [[Heartwarming/WesternAnimation It's, it's not.]] [[TearJerker/WesternAnimation No. Stupid.]]\\

to:

From the beginning, cartoons were always made for everyone. [[TheGoldenAgeOfAnimation [[UsefulNotes/TheGoldenAgeOfAnimation Since]] TheTwenties [[TheGoldenAgeOfAnimation [[UsefulNotes/TheGoldenAgeOfAnimation through]] [[TheSixties Sixties]], animated shorts like the WesternAnimation/LooneyTunes were played in movie theaters and drive-ins before films. Generally, it was for all ages. [[GettingCrapPastTheRadar Occasionally, inappropriate stuff was snuck in.]] [[TheDarkAgeOfAnimation [[UsefulNotes/TheDarkAgeOfAnimation TV later became more prominent.]] Creator/{{Hanna Barbera}}'s studios made animation more and marketable towards children, since they felt adults wouldn't get past their more LimitedAnimation, and that's were the stigma came to be. [[Anime/GhostInTheShell Multiple attempts]] [[WesternAnimation/HeavyMetal have been]] [[Literature/AScannerDarkly made to make]] [[WesternAnimation/{{Nine}} more mature]], [[Manga/{{AKIRA}} theatrical animation]], but never did that break into mainstream success. [[AllAdultAnimationIsSouthPark At most, people accept animation as comedy,]] [[ComedyGhetto and they think there's only comedy in animation.]] [[Heartwarming/WesternAnimation It's, it's not.]] [[TearJerker/WesternAnimation No. Stupid.]]\\
7th Dec '15 8:41:58 AM Hossmeister
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-->--'''[[Franchise/AceAttorney Pearl Fey]]''' (Age 9), ''VisualNovel/PhoenixWrightAceAttorney: Justice For All''

to:

-->--'''[[Franchise/AceAttorney Pearl Fey]]''' (Age 9), ''VisualNovel/PhoenixWrightAceAttorney: Justice For All''
''VisualNovel/PhoenixWrightAceAttorneyJusticeForAll''
18th Oct '15 7:14:42 PM nombretomado
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->''"[[TVTropes The site]] prides itself on covering as broad a range of fiction as possible, emerging as a sometimes fascinating form of populist, open-access media scholarship. In theory, this would make it the perfect place to cover lost gems of animation, but in practice it has many blind spots. There is little discussion about [[Creator/JanSvankmajer (Jan) Svankmajer]] or [[Film/PropertyOfTheRepublic Yuri]] [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Taltn1aLtsM Norstein]], while juvenile mediocrities such as {{Disney}}'s {{WesternAnimation/Gargoyles}} are treated as masterpieces on a par with the television dramas of [[Series/PenniesFromHeaven Dennis]] [[Series/TheSingingDetective Potter]] and [[Creator/DavidSimon David]] [[Series/TheWire Simon]]. TV Tropes has a page devoted to what it calls the Animation Age Ghetto, which gives a reasonable if scattershot overview of the subject. The page's "examples" section, however, consists in large part of people filibustering about how their favorite superhero cartoons never caught on. The main reason that most of these cartoons never attracted adult audiences, of course, is that [[WhatDoYouMeanItsForKids they are simply not for adults.]]"''

to:

->''"[[TVTropes The site]] prides itself on covering as broad a range of fiction as possible, emerging as a sometimes fascinating form of populist, open-access media scholarship. In theory, this would make it the perfect place to cover lost gems of animation, but in practice it has many blind spots. There is little discussion about [[Creator/JanSvankmajer (Jan) Svankmajer]] or [[Film/PropertyOfTheRepublic Yuri]] [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Taltn1aLtsM Norstein]], while juvenile mediocrities such as {{Disney}}'s {{Creator/Disney}}'s {{WesternAnimation/Gargoyles}} are treated as masterpieces on a par with the television dramas of [[Series/PenniesFromHeaven Dennis]] [[Series/TheSingingDetective Potter]] and [[Creator/DavidSimon David]] [[Series/TheWire Simon]]. TV Tropes has a page devoted to what it calls the Animation Age Ghetto, which gives a reasonable if scattershot overview of the subject. The page's "examples" section, however, consists in large part of people filibustering about how their favorite superhero cartoons never caught on. The main reason that most of these cartoons never attracted adult audiences, of course, is that [[WhatDoYouMeanItsForKids they are simply not for adults.]]"''
4th Oct '15 12:03:02 AM rjd1922
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->''"Itís not a genre! A Western is a genre! Animation is an art form, and it can do any genre. You know, it can do a detective film, a cowboy film, a horror film, an R-rated film or a kidsí fairy tale. But it doesnít do one thing. [[BeserkButton And, next time I hear, ĎWhatís it like working in the animation genre?í Iím going to punch that person!]]Ē''

to:

->''"Itís not a genre! A Western is a genre! Animation is an art form, and it can do any genre. You know, it can do a detective film, a cowboy film, a horror film, an R-rated film or a kidsí fairy tale. But it doesnít do one thing. [[BeserkButton [[BerserkButton And, next time I hear, ĎWhatís it like working in the animation genre?í Iím going to punch that person!]]Ē''
4th Oct '15 12:02:24 AM rjd1922
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Added DiffLines:

->''"Itís not a genre! A Western is a genre! Animation is an art form, and it can do any genre. You know, it can do a detective film, a cowboy film, a horror film, an R-rated film or a kidsí fairy tale. But it doesnít do one thing. [[BeserkButton And, next time I hear, ĎWhatís it like working in the animation genre?í Iím going to punch that person!]]Ē''
-->-- '''Creator/BradBird''' on the DVD commentary of ''WesternAnimation/TheIncredibles''
2nd Sep '15 1:22:40 PM hydrix
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->''Beneath every kind of aesthetic surface exists a dirty underbelly; and animated film is no exception. Perhaps the main difference is that when animation does dare to rear an ugly uncensored head, it is all-the-more intimidating given its typical tie with innocence.

What follows is a selection of films that convey an astonishing distance between image and content. Films that muddle the bright connotations of animation and provide a disturbing alternative. For those seeking an often unexplored sidebar of cinema, this list can act as a push into pastures new; a peek at cult productions that are destined to linger on the fringes of common culture following mainstream critical backlash.

On the other hand, for those who get a little green around the gills when censorship is submerged, this list could act as a gentle caution. Cartoons arenít always cuddly.''

to:

->''Beneath every kind of aesthetic surface exists a dirty underbelly; and animated film is no exception. Perhaps the main difference is that when animation does dare to rear an ugly uncensored head, it is all-the-more intimidating given its typical tie with innocence.

What
innocence.''

->''What
follows is a selection of films that convey an astonishing distance between image and content. Films that muddle the bright connotations of animation and provide a disturbing alternative. For those seeking an often unexplored sidebar of cinema, this list can act as a push into pastures new; a peek at cult productions that are destined to linger on the fringes of common culture following mainstream critical backlash.

On
backlash.''

->''On
the other hand, for those who get a little green around the gills when censorship is submerged, this list could act as a gentle caution. Cartoons arenít always cuddly.''
2nd Sep '15 1:18:09 PM hydrix
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Added DiffLines:


->''Beneath every kind of aesthetic surface exists a dirty underbelly; and animated film is no exception. Perhaps the main difference is that when animation does dare to rear an ugly uncensored head, it is all-the-more intimidating given its typical tie with innocence.

What follows is a selection of films that convey an astonishing distance between image and content. Films that muddle the bright connotations of animation and provide a disturbing alternative. For those seeking an often unexplored sidebar of cinema, this list can act as a push into pastures new; a peek at cult productions that are destined to linger on the fringes of common culture following mainstream critical backlash.

On the other hand, for those who get a little green around the gills when censorship is submerged, this list could act as a gentle caution. Cartoons arenít always cuddly.''
-->--''Gareth Lloyd'' - [[http://www.tasteofcinema.com/2014/10-dark-and-disturbing-animated-films-that-are-worth-your-time/ 10 Dark and Disturbing Animated Films That Are Worth Your Time]]
12th Aug '15 3:56:54 PM nombretomado
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Then there's people who think a cartoon can't have a good story. If a story was good, it shouldn't matter if it's animated. Stupid. If anything, that should value it more. Can you do [[Anime/TengenToppaGurrenLagann this]]? I don't think so! [[AdobeFlash Hang on let me push the "Make a Cartoon" button on my]] {{Macintosh}}. Animation is a massive group project. Every single object has to be designed. Basic stuff you take for granted requires far more effort than you's expect. People spend their whole life learning to art. No-one's born being a good draw-er.\\

to:

Then there's people who think a cartoon can't have a good story. If a story was good, it shouldn't matter if it's animated. Stupid. If anything, that should value it more. Can you do [[Anime/TengenToppaGurrenLagann this]]? I don't think so! [[AdobeFlash [[UsefulNotes/AdobeFlash Hang on let me push the "Make a Cartoon" button on my]] {{Macintosh}}. Animation is a massive group project. Every single object has to be designed. Basic stuff you take for granted requires far more effort than you's expect. People spend their whole life learning to art. No-one's born being a good draw-er.\\
16th Jul '15 7:58:21 AM Prinzenick
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->''"From my first day at TerryToons to my last, which was by the way about 15 years, the conversation by animators always revolved about [[TheTwelvePrinciplesOfAnimation anticipation, squash and stretch, holds, timing]], etc., etc. Two more frames here would make that hit funnier, two more frames there would make that hit slower. {{Disney}} did this and that and not only this but that too. On and on and on and on and on... It was fun at first, but then it got old. Very old. Wasn't there anything else to this business besides this? Oh, yeah, there was. This Disney studio kid was saved by merchandising, do you know that? [[MerchandiseDriven Yeah, so make sure everything you do has a doll in mind.]] Because even if you blow it at the box office, the doll will save the studio. So then you can go on to do another picture that blows it in the box office, but the coloring books will save this one. We all had to animate 50 feet a week, plus layout our own animation to stay on budget. With no pencil tests -- that's right, no pencil tests, you learned what you did on the final print three months later or not. That was TerryToons. That was reality. We weren't allowed to finesse the animation like at Disney, so why talk about it endlessly? There had to be another way to beat them. (This stays true today. I just saw [[Disney/{{Tarzan}} Tarzan]] and the animation is incredible. I think it is the best film Disney has ever done.) As my hero animator, Jim Tyer, used to say, "Hey Ralph, stop worrying. Everything moves, so put it down, have fun and go home." Yeah, Jim had fun, more fun than any animator I knew at the time. He distorted, he drew off model -- yes, off model, and threw shapes around like he was JacksonPollack, the animator. He had fun. The rest of the guys stared at Disney and cried, "If we could only do that, boo-hoo." Jim would walk around the inking department -- yes, hand-inking with Crokille pens -- telling the inkers, "Don't worry about where my line is, don't stiffen up the animation, keep it loose. The color will hold it together. Have fun. It is just cartoons." This, compared to another guy who would scream, "You wiggled the nose on that cel! What are you doing ruining my animation that way!" To do whatever you want; to make statements like BobDylan marching down South for voting rights and integration; to hit a note like MilesDavis and JohnColtrane; to be free like Rock 'n Roll taught: that's what was blowing in the wind during my youth, whether we realized it or not. On ''WesternAnimation/FritzTheCat'', ''WesternAnimation/HeavyTraffic'', ''WesternAnimation/HeyGoodLookin'', ''WesternAnimation/{{Wizards}}'', we had no pencil tests. What I did have was the brilliant [[TheGoldenAgeOfAnimation golden age animators on my side]]. Who loved what they were doing -- finally. Virgil Ross, Irv Spence, Manny Perez, Bob Carlson, John Sperry, Ed Barge, Creator/TexAvery (he was Irv Spence's best friend and used to come in and hang out a couple of times a week until he left the planet), John Vita... These guys loved what we were doing. [[DoingItForTheArt They were free to create, to say anything and man, could they animate.]] Not the slick, boring, perfect stuff, but the "I really feel this scene" kinda stuff. I believe in what I am drawing. I believe in what I am drawing. What adult animation means to me is not tits and ass, but the right to animate any subject or idea you have and let the ratings fall where they may. All I wanted to do was animate the things I thought about and not the dolls they thought about."''

to:

->''"From my first day at TerryToons to my last, which was by the way about 15 years, the conversation by animators always revolved about [[TheTwelvePrinciplesOfAnimation anticipation, squash and stretch, holds, timing]], etc., etc. Two more frames here would make that hit funnier, two more frames there would make that hit slower. {{Disney}} did this and that and not only this but that too. On and on and on and on and on... It was fun at first, but then it got old. Very old. Wasn't there anything else to this business besides this? Oh, yeah, there was. This Disney studio kid was saved by merchandising, do you know that? [[MerchandiseDriven Yeah, so make sure everything you do has a doll in mind.]] Because even if you blow it at the box office, the doll will save the studio. So then you can go on to do another picture that blows it in the box office, but the coloring books will save this one. We all had to animate 50 feet a week, plus layout our own animation to stay on budget. With no pencil tests -- that's right, no pencil tests, you learned what you did on the final print three months later or not. That was TerryToons. That was reality. We weren't allowed to finesse the animation like at Disney, so why talk about it endlessly? There had to be another way to beat them. (This stays true today. I just saw [[Disney/{{Tarzan}} Tarzan]] and the animation is incredible. I think it is the best film Disney has ever done.) As my hero animator, Jim Tyer, used to say, "Hey Ralph, stop worrying. Everything moves, so put it down, have fun and go home." Yeah, Jim had fun, more fun than any animator I knew at the time. He distorted, he drew off model -- yes, off model, and threw shapes around like he was JacksonPollack, the animator. He had fun. The rest of the guys stared at Disney and cried, "If we could only do that, boo-hoo." Jim would walk around the inking department -- yes, hand-inking with Crokille pens -- telling the inkers, "Don't worry about where my line is, don't stiffen up the animation, keep it loose. The color will hold it together. Have fun. It is just cartoons." This, compared to another guy who would scream, "You wiggled the nose on that cel! What are you doing ruining my animation that way!" To do whatever you want; to make statements like BobDylan marching down South for voting rights and integration; to hit a note like MilesDavis and JohnColtrane; to be free like Rock 'n Roll taught: that's what was blowing in the wind during my youth, whether we realized it or not. On ''WesternAnimation/FritzTheCat'', ''WesternAnimation/HeavyTraffic'', ''WesternAnimation/HeyGoodLookin'', ''WesternAnimation/{{Wizards}}'', we had no pencil tests. What I did have was the brilliant [[TheGoldenAgeOfAnimation golden age animators on my side]]. Who loved what they were doing -- finally. Virgil Ross, Irv Spence, Manny Perez, Bob Carlson, John Sperry, Ed Barge, Creator/TexAvery (he was Irv Spence's best friend and used to come in and hang out a couple of times a week until he left the planet), John Vita... These ->''"These guys loved what we were doing. [[DoingItForTheArt They were free to create, to say anything and man, could they animate.]] Not the slick, boring, perfect stuff, but the "I really feel this scene" kinda stuff. I believe in what I am drawing. I believe in what I am drawing. What adult animation means to me is not tits and ass, but the right to animate any subject or idea you have and let the ratings fall where they may. All I wanted to do was animate the things I thought about and not the dolls they thought about."''



->''"[[TVTropes The site]] prides itself on covering as broad a range of fiction as possible, emerging as a sometimes fascinating form of populist, open-access media scholarship. In theory, this would make it the perfect place to cover lost gems of animation, but in practice it has many blind spots. There is little discussion about [[Creator/JanSvankmajer (Jan) Svankmajer]] or [[Film/PropertyOfTheRepublic Yuri]] [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Taltn1aLtsM Norstein]], while juvenile mediocrities such as {{Disney}}'s {{WesternAnimation/Gargoyles}} are treated as masterpieces on a par with the television dramas of [[Series/PenniesFromHeaven Dennis]] [[Series/TheSingingDetective Potter]] and [[Creator/DavidSimon David]] [[Series/TheWire Simon]]. TV Tropes has a page devoted to what it calls the Animation Age Ghetto, which gives a reasonable if scattershot overview of the subject. The page's "examples" section, however, consists in large part of people filibustering about how their favorite superhero cartoons never caught on. The main reason that most of these cartoons never attracted adult audiences, of course, is that [[WhatDoYouMeanItsForKids they are simply not for adults.]] That's not to say that there's anything wrong with having [[GuiltyPleasure guilty pleasures]]. The humorist Creator/StephenFry summed things up well: a fan of ''Series/DoctorWho'', he commented that "every now and again we all like a chicken nugget." As he continued, however, "If you are an adult you want something surprising, savory, sharp, unusual, cosmopolitan, alien, challenging, complex, ambiguous, possibly even slightly disturbing and wrong. You want to try those things, because that's what being adult means." The ever-enthusiastic geek demographic certainly does not see animation as being merely for children. But it suffers from an inverted snobbery, with more inventive or experimental animation [[TrueArtIsAngsty dismissed as "pretentious" or "arthouse"]], and from a view of the medium that is built largely on [[NostalgiaFilter nostalgia for beloved childhood cartoons]]. Even dedicated animation enthusiasts can overlook much of the best work which is out there: perhaps it is in human nature for audiences to stick to the films which they think they might enjoy rather than try anything new."''

to:

->''"[[TVTropes The site]] prides itself on covering as broad a range of fiction as possible, emerging as a sometimes fascinating form of populist, open-access media scholarship. In theory, this would make it the perfect place to cover lost gems of animation, but in practice it has many blind spots. There is little discussion about [[Creator/JanSvankmajer (Jan) Svankmajer]] or [[Film/PropertyOfTheRepublic Yuri]] [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Taltn1aLtsM Norstein]], while juvenile mediocrities such as {{Disney}}'s {{WesternAnimation/Gargoyles}} are treated as masterpieces on a par with the television dramas of [[Series/PenniesFromHeaven Dennis]] [[Series/TheSingingDetective Potter]] and [[Creator/DavidSimon David]] [[Series/TheWire Simon]]. TV Tropes has a page devoted to what it calls the Animation Age Ghetto, which gives a reasonable if scattershot overview of the subject. The page's "examples" section, however, consists in large part of people filibustering about how their favorite superhero cartoons never caught on. The main reason that most of these cartoons never attracted adult audiences, of course, is that [[WhatDoYouMeanItsForKids they are simply not for adults.]] That's not to say that there's anything wrong with having [[GuiltyPleasure guilty pleasures]]. The humorist Creator/StephenFry summed things up well: a fan of ''Series/DoctorWho'', he commented that "every now and again we all like a chicken nugget." As he continued, however, "If you are an adult you want something surprising, savory, sharp, unusual, cosmopolitan, alien, challenging, complex, ambiguous, possibly even slightly disturbing and wrong. You want to try those things, because that's what being adult means." The ever-enthusiastic geek demographic certainly does not see animation as being merely for children. But it suffers from an inverted snobbery, with more inventive or experimental animation [[TrueArtIsAngsty dismissed as "pretentious" or "arthouse"]], and from a view of the medium that is built largely on [[NostalgiaFilter nostalgia for beloved childhood cartoons]]. Even dedicated animation enthusiasts can overlook much of the best work which is out there: perhaps it is in human nature for audiences to stick to the films which they think they might enjoy rather than try anything new."'']]"''



->"But before taking a step in any direction, I sugest that the reader take a long look at the field from the standpoint of its history and its restrictions. It is only after seeing twenty or more animated films from the so-called [[TheGoldenAgeOfAnimation Golden Age]] in one evening that one begins to understand that American theatrical animation, at its best, had a very narrow scope from a literary point of view. This may be lese majeste, but as a writer I find very little difference between MightyMouse and MickeyMouse. A pratfall by either rodent is still just a pratfall, even if the {{DIsney}} version is far better written and animated. To make the constriction even more disturbing, all the studios of the period, without exception, used the cel system. Can the humor in these cartoons compare in diversity with the writings of {{Aristophanes}}, MarkTwain, WillRogers, and AnatoleFrance? The answer is a resounding NO! Is it restrictive to the creativity of an artist to have to draw and think as everybody else in a group in order to be a useful filmmaker? The answer is a resounding YES! Just think of the impact on Western art if artists such as {{Picasso}}, {{Braque}}, {{Miro}}, and {{Matisse}} all had had to work within a group; had had to paint in oil; and their subjects could only have been baskets of fruit. [[VincentVanGogh Van Gogh]] would not have been the only one to commit suicide. It is shocking to realize that this simile is not as farfetched as it might seem at first glance. The reason that I bring up this doleful subject is that you may elect to work in one of the studios but at the same time begin to make independent films, as well. In the television business on the west coast, there is usually a period of several months when there is no work. This time might be used to produce a film of your own, or perhaps work on a co-op venture. The only place on this continent where filmmakers working on staff can make pictures using any technique that suits their fancy, and produce any type of story they choose, is [[TheNationalFilmBoardOfCanada the National Film Board of Canada]]. The Montreal branch is divided between English-speaking and French-speaking filmmakers. There are additional branches in Toronto, Winnipeg, Halifax, Edmonton, and Vancouver. The National Film Board was created in Ottowa in 1939, and Norman McLaren was asked to head the animation department in 1946. There could not have been a better choice to lead a group of young filmmakers. During his long career in animation, scarcely a year went by in which McLaren [[DoingItForTheArt did not explore new ground]], and he encouraged the staff to do the same. They made films for information, education, and entertainment, and in the doing, broke with the traditional ink-and-paint-on-cel approach whenever it suited their purpose. Pictures were made using underlit sand; colored pencil on frosted cels; underlit cutout silhouettes; pixillation (which is moving live people exposure by exposure); scratching images into black leader; drawing on clear leader with a pen; animating beads and building blocks; painting on glass; puppets; pastel; watercolors; and combinations of these techniques. I suggest that every person interested in animation do the following experiment; Screen a dozen or more animated cartoons from all the studios that were operating in the 1940s and 1950s, or record them from television. Arrange a screening of all of them in one long session. As soon as possible after that, attend a screening session made up solely of National Film Board Pictures. It is only by this juxtaposition that one can realize how narrow the scope of the former and how diverse the approach of the latter. The following is a suggested list of NFB pictures to see; (Hors d'Oeuvre, I know an old lady who swallowed a fly, Walking, Cat's Cradle, Hen Hop, What On Earth?, Why Me?, Bead Game, Hot Stuff, The Street, Big Snit, Every Child, Sandcastle, Special Delivery, The Great Toy Robbery, The Sweater, Getting Started, The Owl Who Married A Goose) It is only after one has made this direction comparison that the enormity of the deprivation becomes apparent. The wealth of ideas, techniques, and styles in the Canadian animation compared to the sameness of technique and style in the so-called Golden Age films makes the loss incalculable. The real Golden Age started in 1941 with the National Film Board of Canada, when the studio was based in Montreal."
-->--ShamusCulhane, "Animation: From Script to Screen", pg. 292-294
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