History MisaimedFandom / Theatre

18th Oct '17 3:05:08 AM qindarka
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** Falstaff, a lazy fat drunk whose main purpose in the ''Theatre/HenryIV'' trilogy was to show how dissipated Prince Hal really was, became so popular that (according to legend) Shakespeare was asked by Elizabeth I to write a comedy around him, which is how we got ''Theatre/TheMerryWivesOfWindsor''. (The Queen probably didn't make that request, but she might as well have; audiences really were clamoring to see more of Falstaff.) Modern productions, and Creator/OrsonWelles' Film/ChimesAtMidnight have reinterpreted Falstaff as the Protagonist of the plays, seeing his devastating critiques of war, martial glory, and honor as more compelling than the play's hero who doesn't think twice about ''sending untold numbers to be killed''. Shakespeare's plays were certainly commissioned and sold as propaganda for the state and royalty, so reinterpreting his works as anti-monarchical via Falstaff is certainly something beyond anything Shakespeare could have intended.
** Shylock in ''Theatre/TheMerchantOfVenice'' is an anti-Semitic caricature but today's audiences see him as a TragicVillain who see his famous speech as an example of anti-racist ideas snuck into propaganda by Shakespeare. This allows modern readers to re-interpret the anti-Semitism that undoubtedly was originally in the play and recast the whole thing around Shylock. Most modern productions do some editing, for instance omitting Shylock being forced to convert at the end.
9th Sep '17 4:35:36 PM nombretomado
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** It gets even worse when fans ship the Phantom with Christine and go on about how Raoul (who was an aspiring Arctic explorer in the book) is boring and less attractive and that Christine is an evil tease for choosing him by the end. Because heaven forbid a woman marry her sweet childhood friend instead of the raving murderous madman who stalked her, scared her half to death, and threatened to kill her boyfriend if she didn't marry him. The sequel to AndrewLloydWebber's musical, ''Theatre/LoveNeverDies'', handled this matter by turning poor Raoul into a gambling addict and alcoholic and again raising the possibility of the Phantom and Christing getting together, [[spoiler: ultimately making the misaimed fandom pairing the ''legit'' one]]. The existence of the show serves as a ''massive'' ContestedSequel in the phan community largely because of this - those who view it as a legitimate sequel come into conflict with those who think it shouldn't be taken seriously, making this a case where the misaimed phantom have almost withdrawn entirely from the community at large to form their own groups.

to:

** It gets even worse when fans ship the Phantom with Christine and go on about how Raoul (who was an aspiring Arctic explorer in the book) is boring and less attractive and that Christine is an evil tease for choosing him by the end. Because heaven forbid a woman marry her sweet childhood friend instead of the raving murderous madman who stalked her, scared her half to death, and threatened to kill her boyfriend if she didn't marry him. The sequel to AndrewLloydWebber's Creator/AndrewLloydWebber's musical, ''Theatre/LoveNeverDies'', handled this matter by turning poor Raoul into a gambling addict and alcoholic and again raising the possibility of the Phantom and Christing getting together, [[spoiler: ultimately making the misaimed fandom pairing the ''legit'' one]]. The existence of the show serves as a ''massive'' ContestedSequel in the phan community largely because of this - those who view it as a legitimate sequel come into conflict with those who think it shouldn't be taken seriously, making this a case where the misaimed phantom have almost withdrawn entirely from the community at large to form their own groups.
22nd Feb '17 11:23:01 AM JulianLapostat
Is there an issue? Send a Message


*** Proto-Feminist scholars once saw Portia as a positive female character since she demonstrates active agency, has more guile than the heroes and eloquently voices her views in law to defend Shylock. Modern audiences see her as a DesignatedHero who is more or less party to state persecution of Jews and whose formerly beloved 'the quality of mercy' speech is one where she more or less states that Christians are more merciful than Jews, which a modern audience no longer sees as anything other than religious propaganda, and which considering the overall conceit of the play is nothing more than {{Hypocrisy}} and MoralMyopia.

to:

*** Proto-Feminist scholars once saw Portia as a positive female character since she demonstrates active agency, has more guile than the heroes and eloquently voices her views in law to defend Shylock.law. Modern audiences see her as a DesignatedHero who is more or less party to state persecution of Jews and whose formerly beloved 'the quality of mercy' speech is one where she more or less states that Christians are more merciful than Jews, which a modern audience no longer sees as anything other than religious propaganda, and which considering the overall conceit of the play is nothing more than {{Hypocrisy}} and MoralMyopia.
13th Feb '17 11:51:18 AM JulianLapostat
Is there an issue? Send a Message


*** "Hath not a Jew eyes..." in particular - most scholars agree that the purpose of this soliloquy is to demonstrate that Shylock ''does not actually understand what a human being is'', since the only trait he describes unique to humans is vengeance, a vice associated with Jews. Now it's usually treated as a showcase of his humanity and how he's been wronged by Christianity.[[note]]Yet the main characters are just as sneaky and/or vengeful as Shylock is. This is really less Misaimed Fandom and more simple YMMV. [[FairForItsDay The social conventions of the time also feed into it,]] making it much harder to take Shylock at face value.[[/note]
*** Proto-Feminist scholars once saw Portia as a positive female character since she demonstrates active agency, has more guile than the heroes and eloquently voices her views in law to defend Shylock. Modern audiences see her as a DesignatedHero who is more or less party to state persecution of Jews and whose formerly beloved 'the quality of mercy' speech is one she identifies as native to Christians more than Jews which a modern audience no longer sees as anything other than religious propaganda.

to:

*** "Hath not a Jew eyes..." in particular - most scholars agree that the purpose of this soliloquy is to demonstrate that Shylock ''does not actually understand what a human being is'', since the only trait he describes unique to humans is vengeance, a vice associated with Jews. Now it's usually treated as a showcase of his humanity and how he's been wronged by Christianity.[[note]]Yet the main characters are just as sneaky and/or vengeful as Shylock is. This is really less Misaimed Fandom and more simple YMMV. [[FairForItsDay The social conventions of the time also feed into it,]] making it much harder to take Shylock at face value.[[/note]
[[/note]]
*** Proto-Feminist scholars once saw Portia as a positive female character since she demonstrates active agency, has more guile than the heroes and eloquently voices her views in law to defend Shylock. Modern audiences see her as a DesignatedHero who is more or less party to state persecution of Jews and whose formerly beloved 'the quality of mercy' speech is one where she identifies as native to more or less states that Christians are more merciful than Jews Jews, which a modern audience no longer sees as anything other than religious propaganda.propaganda, and which considering the overall conceit of the play is nothing more than {{Hypocrisy}} and MoralMyopia.



*** On the same note, "Brevity is the soul of wit"...

to:

*** On the same note, "Brevity is the soul of wit"...wit". ''Hamlet'' is Shakespeare's longest, most verbose play, with the most psychological intricacy and some of the most well known quotations that have ever passed into common usage. [[BrokenAesop So formally speaking, "brevity" is NOT the soul of wit]].



** Also, ''Theatre/{{Macbeth}}'''s "Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow" speech is a favorite of many {{Straw Nihilist}}s who don't realize Shakespeare used it to show how twisted and desperate the protagonist has become.
*** Since it comes immediately after he learns of the death of his wife, it presumably shows the eponymous character going into a VillainousBSOD, rather than being a bold statement of considered philosophy.

to:

** Also, ''Theatre/{{Macbeth}}'''s "Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow" speech is a favorite of many {{Straw Nihilist}}s who don't realize Shakespeare used it to show how twisted and desperate the protagonist has become.
***
become. Since it comes immediately after he learns of the death of his wife, it presumably shows the eponymous character going into a VillainousBSOD, rather than being a bold statement of considered philosophy.philosophy.



** Shaw himself has one, mostly from people who think that, as a Socialist, he was anti-Imperialist. He wasn't; he was in favor of the Boer War, for instance, and ''virulently'' opposed to Irish independence.
13th Feb '17 11:42:06 AM JulianLapostat
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* [[TheZerothLawOfTropeExamples Of course]], Creator/WilliamShakespeare's works are subject to this. Made difficult since we don't have anything remotely like WordOfGod on what his intentions were for the play and the characters, leaving it subject to AlternateCharacterInterpretation that is unlikely to ever die:

to:

* [[TheZerothLawOfTropeExamples Of course]], Creator/WilliamShakespeare's works are subject to this. Made difficult since we don't have anything remotely like WordOfGod on what his intentions were for the play his plays and the characters, leaving it subject to AlternateCharacterInterpretation that is unlikely to ever die:
13th Feb '17 11:41:15 AM JulianLapostat
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** Another example is the song "What Keeps A Man Alive?", which is a lyrical FreudianExcuse about how poverty leads to savagery in order to survive. Brecht condemned this attitude, as in practice, it meant that the poor would prey on one another rather than organizing and bettering their condition. This was missed at people that took the message at face value and ignored how in the play, they end up remaining under the thumb of Macheath and Peachum, and miss the final lines (often left in production) that people only see those in the light but ignore the ones who are out of sight.

to:

** Another example is the song "What Keeps A Man Alive?", which is a lyrical FreudianExcuse about how poverty leads to savagery in order to survive. Brecht condemned this attitude, as in practice, it meant that the poor would prey on one another rather than organizing and bettering their condition. This was missed at people that took the message at face value and ignored how in the play, they end up remaining under the thumb of Macheath and Peachum, and miss the final lines (often left in production) out of productions) that people only see those in the light but ignore the ones who are out of sight.
13th Feb '17 11:39:57 AM JulianLapostat
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* Creator/BertoltBrecht: Inventor of Epic Theater, communist and Marxist, critic of UsefulNotes/{{Capitalism}} and yet far more popular in the capitalist West than the Communist East, who largely rejected his modernist and revolutionary aesthetic in favor of socialist realism. Brecht [[IntendedAudienceReaction aimed his plays for a largely capitalist audience]] so this didn't bother him mcuh because in his view, revolutionary agitation and modernist alienation are more useful to a capitalist audience than one in a socialist audience, at least in theory. What would bother him are the following ironies:

to:

* Creator/BertoltBrecht: Inventor of Epic Theater, communist and Marxist, critic of UsefulNotes/{{Capitalism}} and yet far more popular in the capitalist West than the Communist East, who largely rejected his modernist and revolutionary aesthetic in favor of socialist realism. Brecht [[IntendedAudienceReaction aimed his plays for a largely capitalist audience]] so this didn't bother him mcuh much because in his view, revolutionary agitation and modernist alienation are more useful to a capitalist audience than one in a socialist audience, at least in theory. What would bother him are the following ironies:
13th Feb '17 11:39:43 AM JulianLapostat
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* Creator/BertoltBrecht: Inventor of Epic Theater, communist and Marxist, critic of UsefulNotes/{{Capitalism}} and yet far more popular in the capitalist West than the Communist East, who largely rejected his modernist and revolutionary aesthetic in favor of socialist realism. Brecht [[IntendedAudienceReaction aimed his plays for a largely capitalist audience so he did indeed aim his plays for a capitalist western audience]] because in his view, revolutionary agitation and modernist alienation are more useful to a capitalist audience than one in a socialist audience, at least in theory. What would bother him are the following ironies:

to:

* Creator/BertoltBrecht: Inventor of Epic Theater, communist and Marxist, critic of UsefulNotes/{{Capitalism}} and yet far more popular in the capitalist West than the Communist East, who largely rejected his modernist and revolutionary aesthetic in favor of socialist realism. Brecht [[IntendedAudienceReaction aimed his plays for a largely capitalist audience so he did indeed aim his plays for a capitalist western audience]] so this didn't bother him mcuh because in his view, revolutionary agitation and modernist alienation are more useful to a capitalist audience than one in a socialist audience, at least in theory. What would bother him are the following ironies:
13th Feb '17 11:38:57 AM JulianLapostat
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* Creator/BertoltBrecht: Inventor of Epic Theater, staunch hater of Capitalism, and victim of terrible MisaimedFandom.
** When ''Theatre/TheThreepennyOpera'' first premiered in Berlin in 1928, it was a satirical indictment of the bourgeoisie, although it was wildly popular with this particular social class.
** Similarly, it seems strange how "The Ballad of Mack the Knife" (from said opera) transformed from an eerie depiction of a serial killer/rapist/arsonist/thief to a happy-go-lucky jazz standard. The badass lyrics and neat meter are probably responsible (not to mention how many jazzy singers are linked with the Mafia).
*** However, the tune by which we know said ballad is not the one Brecht intended for it. He had a general policy against songs that were pleasant to listen to.
*** It certainly doesn't help that most kids born in 1975 or later are [[WeirdAlEffect only familiar with the tune]] via the zany [=McDonald's=] parody "It's Mac Tonight!"
** Another example is the song "What Keeps A Man Alive?", which is a lyrical FreudianExcuse about how poverty leads to savagery in order to survive. Brecht condemned this attitude, as in practice, it meant that the poor would prey on one another rather than organizing and bettering their condition. This was missed at people that took the message at face value.

to:

* Creator/BertoltBrecht: Inventor of Epic Theater, staunch hater of Capitalism, communist and victim Marxist, critic of terrible MisaimedFandom.
UsefulNotes/{{Capitalism}} and yet far more popular in the capitalist West than the Communist East, who largely rejected his modernist and revolutionary aesthetic in favor of socialist realism. Brecht [[IntendedAudienceReaction aimed his plays for a largely capitalist audience so he did indeed aim his plays for a capitalist western audience]] because in his view, revolutionary agitation and modernist alienation are more useful to a capitalist audience than one in a socialist audience, at least in theory. What would bother him are the following ironies:
** When ''Theatre/TheThreepennyOpera'' first premiered in Berlin in 1928, it was a satirical indictment of the bourgeoisie, although it bourgeoisie. It was wildly a major popular success among all audiences. The songs from this play and ''The Rise and Fall of the City of Mahagonny'' were intended to have StylisticSuck and parody opera ended up becoming highly popular songs in their own right. This is especially the case with this particular social class.
"Alabama Song" that was intentionally written by Brecht ''in bad English'' but ended up being CoveredUp by rock musicians like Music/TheDoors and Music/DavidBowie.
** Similarly, it seems strange how Brecht of course would see most productions of the Threepenny Opera as ComicallyMissingThePoint since most of them are {{Bowdlerization}}, especially "The Ballad of Mack the Knife" (from said opera) transformed from an eerie depiction of a serial killer/rapist/arsonist/thief to a happy-go-lucky jazz standard. The badass lyrics and neat meter are probably responsible (not to mention how many jazzy singers are linked with the Mafia).
*** However, the tune by
which we know said ballad is not famous for being a classic in the one Brecht intended for it. He had jazz repertoire as a swinging song about a womanizing dandy called "Mack the Knife" (and crooned by the likes of Music/LouisArmstrong, Music/BobbyDarin and Music/FrankSinatra). The original song is a MurderBallad about a SerialKiller, SerialRapist who commits acts [[WouldHurtAChild of arson that leads to the death of many orphans]] and the song and the opera in general policy against songs is a portrayal of prostitution that were pleasant to listen to.
*** It certainly doesn't help
criticizes the oppression of women who are forced into abusive relationships with pimps who would kill them without a second thought. The Bowdlerization more or less makes Mack the Knife a LoveableRogue in the mould of the original ''Theatre/TheBeggarsOpera'' and perpetuate the same romanticism that most kids born in 1975 or later are [[WeirdAlEffect only familiar with the tune]] via the zany [=McDonald's=] parody "It's Mac Tonight!"
Brecht is criticizing.
** Another example is the song "What Keeps A Man Alive?", which is a lyrical FreudianExcuse about how poverty leads to savagery in order to survive. Brecht condemned this attitude, as in practice, it meant that the poor would prey on one another rather than organizing and bettering their condition. This was missed at people that took the message at face value.value and ignored how in the play, they end up remaining under the thumb of Macheath and Peachum, and miss the final lines (often left in production) that people only see those in the light but ignore the ones who are out of sight.



** On the reverse side, some Brecht productions go the opposite direction and make his works into simple propaganda advocating revolution, they submit his works to a SettingUpdate and generally simplify his message which was never his intention. Brecht believed that ViewersAreGeniuses that his works must take place in the settings he specifically chose because the drama derived from the special context he created in his work and that the primary job of the playwright is to make audiences think rather than simply identify and leave with a single message.



* [[TheZerothLawOfTropeExamples Of course]], Creator/WilliamShakespeare's works have attracted a misaimed fandom:
** Falstaff, a lazy fat drunk whose main purpose in the ''Theatre/HenryIV'' trilogy was to show how dissipated Prince Hal really was, became so popular that (according to legend) Shakespeare was asked by Elizabeth I to write a comedy around him, which is how we got ''Theatre/TheMerryWivesOfWindsor''. (The Queen probably didn't make that request, but she might as well have; audiences really were clamoring to see more of Falstaff.)
*** Though Falstaff's devastating critiques of war, martial glory, and honor resonate so heavily that some readers forgive him his faults because his faults ''don't send untold numbers to be killed''. This claim can't be made of Henry and the others. Falstaff's amazing take-down of Henry and honor [[http://audiopoetry.wordpress.com/2006/05/09/falstaffs-honour-speech/ here]] is simply brilliant.
** Take a close look at Shylock in ''Theatre/TheMerchantOfVenice''. An anti-Semitic caricature, or a tragic satire thereof? The characterisation of Shylock is [[FairForItsDay just interestingly complicated enough]] (unlike the totally monstrous caricature in ''Theatre/TheJewOfMalta'', for example) that it allows modern readers to re-interpret the anti-Semitism that undoubtedly was originally in the play and recast the whole thing around Shylock. Most modern productions do some editing, for instance omitting Shylock being forced to convert at the end.
*** "Hath not a Jew eyes..." in particular - most scholars agree that the purpose of this soliloquy is to demonstrate that Shylock ''does not actually understand what a human being is'', since the only trait he describes unique to humans is vengeance, a vice associated with Jews. Now it's usually treated as a showcase of his humanity and how he's been wronged by Christianity.
*** ...Yet the main characters are just as sneaky and/or vengeful as Shylock is. This is really less Misaimed Fandom and more simple YMMV. [[FairForItsDay The social conventions of the time also feed into it,]] making it much harder to take Shylock at face value.

to:

* [[TheZerothLawOfTropeExamples Of course]], Creator/WilliamShakespeare's works are subject to this. Made difficult since we don't have attracted a misaimed fandom:
anything remotely like WordOfGod on what his intentions were for the play and the characters, leaving it subject to AlternateCharacterInterpretation that is unlikely to ever die:
** Falstaff, a lazy fat drunk whose main purpose in the ''Theatre/HenryIV'' trilogy was to show how dissipated Prince Hal really was, became so popular that (according to legend) Shakespeare was asked by Elizabeth I to write a comedy around him, which is how we got ''Theatre/TheMerryWivesOfWindsor''. (The Queen probably didn't make that request, but she might as well have; audiences really were clamoring to see more of Falstaff.)
*** Though Falstaff's
) Modern productions, and Creator/OrsonWelles' Film/ChimesAtMidnight have reinterpreted Falstaff as the Protagonist of the plays, seeing his devastating critiques of war, martial glory, and honor resonate so heavily that some readers forgive him his faults because his faults ''don't send as more compelling than the play's hero who doesn't think twice about ''sending untold numbers to be killed''. This claim can't be made of Henry Shakespeare's plays were certainly commissioned and sold as propaganda for the others. Falstaff's amazing take-down of Henry state and honor [[http://audiopoetry.wordpress.com/2006/05/09/falstaffs-honour-speech/ here]] royalty, so reinterpreting his works as anti-monarchical via Falstaff is simply brilliant.certainly something beyond anything Shakespeare could have intended.
** Take a close look at Shylock in ''Theatre/TheMerchantOfVenice''. An ''Theatre/TheMerchantOfVenice'' is an anti-Semitic caricature, or a tragic satire thereof? The characterisation of Shylock is [[FairForItsDay just interestingly complicated enough]] (unlike the totally monstrous caricature in ''Theatre/TheJewOfMalta'', for example) that it but today's audiences see him as a TragicVillain who see his famous speech as an example of anti-racist ideas snuck into propaganda by Shakespeare. This allows modern readers to re-interpret the anti-Semitism that undoubtedly was originally in the play and recast the whole thing around Shylock. Most modern productions do some editing, for instance omitting Shylock being forced to convert at the end.
*** "Hath not a Jew eyes..." in particular - most scholars agree that the purpose of this soliloquy is to demonstrate that Shylock ''does not actually understand what a human being is'', since the only trait he describes unique to humans is vengeance, a vice associated with Jews. Now it's usually treated as a showcase of his humanity and how he's been wronged by Christianity.
*** ...Yet
Christianity.[[note]]Yet the main characters are just as sneaky and/or vengeful as Shylock is. This is really less Misaimed Fandom and more simple YMMV. [[FairForItsDay The social conventions of the time also feed into it,]] making it much harder to take Shylock at face value.[[/note]
*** Proto-Feminist scholars once saw Portia as a positive female character since she demonstrates active agency, has more guile than the heroes and eloquently voices her views in law to defend Shylock. Modern audiences see her as a DesignatedHero who is more or less party to state persecution of Jews and whose formerly beloved 'the quality of mercy' speech is one she identifies as native to Christians more than Jews which a modern audience no longer sees as anything other than religious propaganda.
*** Stephen Greenblatt, the Shakespeare scholar and editor of the Norton Anthology of Literature noted that compared to Theatre/TheJewOfMalta by Creator/ChristopherMarlowe, Shakespeare ''is'' nicer since he allows Shylock to live albeit converted to Christianity, recepient of a HumiliationConga and moreover condemned to being a second-class citizen. However, Marlowe's play has Barabas as an unrepentant VillainProtagonist who never converts, and remains DefiantToTheEnd and moreover ascribes no qualities of mercy to Christianity or any other religion (indeed its message is explicitly ReligionIsWrong) which means that Shakespeare's [[OverlyNarrowSuperlative more liberal for his time and place take on an anti-semitic stock character comes off as far more offensive]] and that it is possible to subject Marlowe's defiant AtLeastIAdmitIt to DracoInLeatherPants and RootingForTheEmpire than Shylock.
12th Oct '16 3:50:35 AM Morgenthaler
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* Nazi and Neo-Nazi Wagner fans. Wagner was indeed anti-Semitic, but believed that Jews should assimilate culturally and convert to Christianity, not that they should be wiped off the face of the Earth. He had a number of Jewish friends, including conductors of his operas. But the association of Wagner with Nazism has become so ubiquitous that some people who don't check their facts think Wagner actually ''was'' a Nazi, despite the fact that he died before Hitler was even ''born.'' Some Jewish couples take this to the point of not playing Wagner's [[LohengrinAndMendelssohn most famous composition at their wedding]]. It doesn't help that Hitler himself saw Wagner's operas as ringing endorsements of Nazism (though many of the other leading Nazis weren't fans of his operas), and that many of Wagner's descendants from that time were close friends of Hitler and approved of his interpretation.

to:

* Nazi and Neo-Nazi Wagner Music/RichardWagner fans. Wagner was indeed anti-Semitic, but believed that Jews should assimilate culturally and convert to Christianity, not that they should be wiped off the face of the Earth. He had a number of Jewish friends, including conductors of his operas. But the association of Wagner with Nazism has become so ubiquitous that some people who don't check their facts think Wagner actually ''was'' a Nazi, despite the fact that he died before Hitler was even ''born.'' Some Jewish couples take this to the point of not playing Wagner's [[LohengrinAndMendelssohn most famous composition at their wedding]]. It doesn't help that Hitler himself saw Wagner's operas as ringing endorsements of Nazism (though many of the other leading Nazis weren't fans of his operas), and that many of Wagner's descendants from that time were close friends of Hitler and approved of his interpretation.
This list shows the last 10 events of 105. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=MisaimedFandom.Theatre