History Main / WordOfDante

8th Dec '17 6:42:58 AM BeerBaron
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* Among the fandom of ''Franchise/TheElderScrolls'', there's the notion that Sheogorath is the only person in the Shivering Isles allowed to grow a beard, which is generally agreed upon to the point where it was stated on the wiki. The evidence for this one comes from the fact that Sheogorath has a beard and that if the player goes to the place Sheogorath teleports you to when you try to attack him, where he drops criminals from multiple feet in the sky, there's a body with a note saying that the man was executed for having a beard. However, the note doesn't specify anything other than that he ''had'' a beard -- for all we know, the crime could be that it was ''longer'' than Sheogorath's, not that it was ''there'' in the first place. [[MadGod This being Sheogorath]], he might just have made up a random baseless excuse to kill the guy.
* The out-of-game writings by former developer Michael Kirkbride count as this. However, since some of them either might be subsequently quoted or used as a [[{{Mythopoeia}} mythopoeic]] basis for the games, the line between WordOfGod and WordOfDante is blurred concerning his writings.

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* ''Franchise/TheElderScrolls''
** The series has this in the form of "Obscure Texts", [[AllThereInTheManual supplementary items]] written by the series' [[WordOfGod developers]] and [[WordOfSaintPaul former developers]]. They're essentially [[LooseCanon treated as canonical]] by most of the fanbase (or at least the equivalent of the series' famous in-universe UnreliableCanon), but Bethesda has no official stance either way. Most prolific is former developer Michael Kirkbride, who still does some freelance work for the series. Most of what he writes about are the more obscure aspects of universe's cosmology which don't get expanded on in the games, as well as lore figures the games never touch upon or that Bethesda is simply finished with (like Vivec). However, since some of them either might be subsequently quoted or used as a [[{{Mythopoeia}} mythopoeic]] basis for the games, the line between WordOfGod and WordOfDante is blurred concerning his writings. As of ''[[Franchise/TheElderScrollsVSkyrim Skyrim]]'', some of the concepts in his works have been officially referenced in game (the idea of "[[ViciousCycle kalpas]]," [[LongDeadBadass Ysgramor]] and his [[BadassArmy 500 companions]], and some of the motivations of the [[ANaziByAnyOtherName Thalmor]]), moving them to CanonImmigrant status.
**
Among the fandom of ''Franchise/TheElderScrolls'', fandom, there's the notion that Sheogorath is the only person in the Shivering Isles allowed to grow a beard, which is generally agreed upon to the point where it was stated on the wiki. The evidence for this one comes from the fact that Sheogorath has a beard and that if the player goes to the place Sheogorath teleports you to when you try to attack him, where he drops criminals from multiple feet in the sky, there's a body with a note saying that the man was executed for having a beard. However, the note doesn't specify anything other than that he ''had'' a beard -- for all we know, the crime could be that it was ''longer'' than Sheogorath's, not that it was ''there'' in the first place. [[MadGod This being Sheogorath]], he might just have made up a random baseless excuse to kill the guy.
* The out-of-game writings by former developer Michael Kirkbride count as this. However, since some of them either might be subsequently quoted or used as a [[{{Mythopoeia}} mythopoeic]] basis for the games, the line between WordOfGod and WordOfDante is blurred concerning his writings.
guy.
5th Dec '17 11:22:08 AM ZSF
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* In an interview with the ''Paris Review'', ''Literature/WolfHall'' author Hilary Mantel discusses how this trope often comes into play when (made-up) details from works of historical fiction are later taken to be true. She gives an example from her own novel of the French Revolution, ''A Place of Greater Safety'': "In [the novel], Camille Desmoulins wonders why he was always running into Antoine Saint-Just. We must be some sort of cousins because I used to see him at christenings, he says. Itís now become a 'fact' that they were cousins. Things get passed around so easily on the Internet. And fact becomes fiction and fiction becomes fact, without anyone stepping in to ­arbitrate and say, What are your sources?" She also mentions a short story by Raymond Carver about the death of Creator/AntonChekhov, which involved a fictional character who has since gone on to be included in subsequent biographies of Chekhov!

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* In an interview [[https://www.theparisreview.org/interviews/6360/hilary-mantel-art-of-fiction-no-226-hilary-mantel interview]] with the ''Paris ''The Paris Review'', ''Literature/WolfHall'' author Hilary Mantel discusses how this trope often comes into play when (made-up) details from works of historical fiction are later taken to be true. She gives an example from her own novel of the French Revolution, ''A Place of Greater Safety'': "In [the novel], Camille Desmoulins wonders why he was always running into Antoine Saint-Just. We must be some sort of cousins because I used to see him at christenings, he says. Itís now become a 'fact' that they were cousins. Things get passed around so easily on the Internet. And fact becomes fiction and fiction becomes fact, without anyone stepping in to ­arbitrate and say, What are your sources?" She also mentions a short story by Raymond Carver about the death of Creator/AntonChekhov, which involved Creator/AntonChekhov. Carver invented a fictional character who for the sake of the story, and the invented character has since gone on to be included in subsequent biographies of Chekhov!
5th Dec '17 11:17:11 AM ZSF
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* In an interview with the ''Paris Review'', ''Literature/WolfHall'' author Hilary Mantel discusses how this trope often comes into play when (made-up) details from works of historical fiction are later taken to be true. She gives an example from her own novel of the French Revolution, ''A Place of Greater Safety'': "In [the novel], Camille Desmoulins wonders why he was always running into Antoine Saint-Just. We must be some sort of cousins because I used to see him at christenings, he says. Itís now become a 'fact' that they were cousins. Things get passed around so easily on the Internet. And fact becomes fiction and fiction becomes fact, without anyone stepping in to ­arbitrate and say, What are your sources?" She also mentions a short story by Raymond Carver about the death of Creator/AntonChekhov, which involved a fictional character who has gone on to be included in subsequent biographies of Chekhov!

to:

* In an interview with the ''Paris Review'', ''Literature/WolfHall'' author Hilary Mantel discusses how this trope often comes into play when (made-up) details from works of historical fiction are later taken to be true. She gives an example from her own novel of the French Revolution, ''A Place of Greater Safety'': "In [the novel], Camille Desmoulins wonders why he was always running into Antoine Saint-Just. We must be some sort of cousins because I used to see him at christenings, he says. Itís now become a 'fact' that they were cousins. Things get passed around so easily on the Internet. And fact becomes fiction and fiction becomes fact, without anyone stepping in to ­arbitrate and say, What are your sources?" She also mentions a short story by Raymond Carver about the death of Creator/AntonChekhov, which involved a fictional character who has since gone on to be included in subsequent biographies of Chekhov!
5th Dec '17 11:16:50 AM ZSF
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* In an interview with the ''Paris Review'', ''Literature/WolfHall'' author Hilary Mantel discusses how this trope often comes into play when (made-up) details from works of historical fiction are later taken to be true. She gives an example from her own novel of the French Revolution, ''A Place of Greater Safety'': "In [the novel], Camille Desmoulins wonders why he was always running into Antoine Saint-Just. We must be some sort of cousins because I used to see him at christenings, he says. Itís now become a 'fact' that they were cousins. Things get passed around so easily on the Internet. And fact becomes fiction and fiction becomes fact, without anyone stepping in to ­arbitrate and say, What are your sources?" She also mentions a short story by Raymond Carver about the death of Creator/AntonChekhov, in which he invented a character who has gone on to be included in subsequent biographies of Chekhov!

to:

* In an interview with the ''Paris Review'', ''Literature/WolfHall'' author Hilary Mantel discusses how this trope often comes into play when (made-up) details from works of historical fiction are later taken to be true. She gives an example from her own novel of the French Revolution, ''A Place of Greater Safety'': "In [the novel], Camille Desmoulins wonders why he was always running into Antoine Saint-Just. We must be some sort of cousins because I used to see him at christenings, he says. Itís now become a 'fact' that they were cousins. Things get passed around so easily on the Internet. And fact becomes fiction and fiction becomes fact, without anyone stepping in to ­arbitrate and say, What are your sources?" She also mentions a short story by Raymond Carver about the death of Creator/AntonChekhov, in which he invented involved a fictional character who has gone on to be included in subsequent biographies of Chekhov!
5th Dec '17 11:15:41 AM ZSF
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Added DiffLines:

* In an interview with the ''Paris Review'', ''Literature/WolfHall'' author Hilary Mantel discusses how this trope often comes into play when (made-up) details from works of historical fiction are later taken to be true. She gives an example from her own novel of the French Revolution, ''A Place of Greater Safety'': "In [the novel], Camille Desmoulins wonders why he was always running into Antoine Saint-Just. We must be some sort of cousins because I used to see him at christenings, he says. Itís now become a 'fact' that they were cousins. Things get passed around so easily on the Internet. And fact becomes fiction and fiction becomes fact, without anyone stepping in to ­arbitrate and say, What are your sources?" She also mentions a short story by Raymond Carver about the death of Creator/AntonChekhov, in which he invented a character who has gone on to be included in subsequent biographies of Chekhov!
5th Dec '17 11:00:32 AM ZSF
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** In the Bible, Moses' birth mother Yocheved was his nursemaid and Moses probably knew he was Hebrew since childhood. Virtually all modern adaptations of the story have him not find out until he is an adult, which is useful in that it adds another layer of {{angst}} to the story. This results from confusion due to the mention of a couple of cities (either contemporary version of slums, or a huge collection of barns, scholars differ in opinion) built by the Hebrew slaves, one of which is called רעמסס ("Ra?amses" where /?/ is an epiglottal stop).

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***This results from confusion due to the mention of a couple of cities (either contemporary version of slums, or a huge collection of barns, scholars differ in opinion) built by the Hebrew slaves, one of which is called רעמסס ("Ra?amses" where /?/ is an epiglottal stop).
** In the Bible, Moses' birth mother Yocheved was his nursemaid and Moses probably knew he was Hebrew since childhood. Virtually all modern adaptations of the story have him not find out until he is an adult, which is useful in that it adds another layer of {{angst}} to the story. This results from confusion due to the mention of a couple of cities (either contemporary version of slums, or a huge collection of barns, scholars differ in opinion) built by the Hebrew slaves, one of which is called רעמסס ("Ra?amses" where /?/ is an epiglottal stop).
5th Dec '17 10:57:03 AM ZSF
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*** The only time "antichrist" is used is in the Johannine Epistles, and it refers to the proto-Gnostics in/around Ephesus that claimed that Jesus was a purely spiritual being (thus not really human in any meaningful sense). This was one of the major conflicts of the early church, since early Christian thought involved a mixture of very earthy Jewish ideas and very other-worldly Greek philosophy. In a society steeped in Greek thought, a divinity actually becoming human would have been ridiculous or offensive, but was right at home with the Jewish idea of YHWH being ultimately invested in human history.
*** This is exactly backwards. To Jewish ears, the very notion of God becoming man is a scandalous violation of the Second Commandment (and the First as well, given the later evolution of the doctrine of Trinity), and was the primary reason the early Christians were expelled from the synagogues after the destruction of the Temple. The Greeks, on the other hand, believed in gods like Zeus with very Ďearthyí desires, begetting semi-divine human heroes like Hercules and Achilles left and right. The Gnostics of Ephesus and elsewhere were no more representative of mainstream Greek culture than of orthodox Christianity. They were a mystical outgrowth of the neo-Platonist philosophical school, which rejected the material world altogether in favor of Plato's realm of pure Ideas.

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*** The only time "antichrist" is used is in the Johannine Epistles, and it refers to the proto-Gnostics in/around Ephesus that claimed that Jesus was a purely spiritual being (thus not really human in any meaningful sense). This was one of the major conflicts of the early church, since early Christian thought involved a mixture of very earthy sometimes-conflicting Jewish and Gentile ideas and very other-worldly Greek philosophy. In a society steeped in Greek thought, a divinity actually becoming human would have been ridiculous or offensive, but was right at home with regarding the Jewish idea of YHWH being ultimately invested in human history.
*** This is exactly backwards. To Jewish ears, the very notion of God becoming man is a scandalous violation
nature of the Second Commandment (and the First as well, given the later evolution of the doctrine of Trinity), spirit, God, and was the primary reason the early Christians were expelled from the synagogues after the destruction of the Temple. The Greeks, on the other hand, believed in gods like Zeus with very Ďearthyí desires, begetting semi-divine human heroes like Hercules and Achilles left and right. The Gnostics of Ephesus and elsewhere were no more representative of mainstream Greek culture than of orthodox Christianity. They were a mystical outgrowth of the neo-Platonist philosophical school, which rejected the material world altogether in favor of Plato's realm of pure Ideas.humanity.
28th Nov '17 6:05:31 PM nombretomado
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** The only Biblical mention of "{{Lilith}}" is in Isaiah 34:14, where it's not even clear that it refers to a person; it's a ''plural'' noun and has variously been translated as "owls" or "demons." It's used a few times in the Talmud, but never as a mysterious "first wife of Adam"--that actually comes from a medieval book called [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_of_Sirach the Alphabet of ben Sirach]], which is [[PoesLaw generally interpreted as some kind of vulgar parody]] (the whole "who's on top?" issue is only one of its lewd topics).

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** The only Biblical mention of "{{Lilith}}" "UsefulNotes/{{Lilith}}" is in Isaiah 34:14, where it's not even clear that it refers to a person; it's a ''plural'' noun and has variously been translated as "owls" or "demons." It's used a few times in the Talmud, but never as a mysterious "first wife of Adam"--that actually comes from a medieval book called [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_of_Sirach the Alphabet of ben Sirach]], which is [[PoesLaw generally interpreted as some kind of vulgar parody]] (the whole "who's on top?" issue is only one of its lewd topics).
23rd Oct '17 8:28:55 AM muninwing
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Added DiffLines:

** In no surviving notes on "Romeo and Juliet" are there any references to a balcony -- the word didn't exist in English until decades later. Act II Scene ii, the infamous Balcony Scene, is largely a product of a later play that copied some of the same dialogue -- Thomas Otway's "The History and Fall of Caius Marius." It does however appear in most movie versions, and Otway borrowed some of the same dialogue that appeared first in "Romeo and Juliet," so it's understandable that the two would get crossed.
11th Oct '17 3:25:50 AM klop422
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* The common myth that Music/WolfgangAmadeusMozart and Antonio Salieri were enemies, or that Salieri killed Mozart, originates with the 1830 verse drama ''Mozart and Salieri'' by Alexander Pushkin, though most people know it from the film ''Film/{{Amadeus}}''. In real life, Mozart and Salieri stood on amicable terms, but a lot of people who should know better still discuss Salieri's supposed ill will toward Mozart as though it were historical fact.

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* The common myth that Music/WolfgangAmadeusMozart and Antonio Salieri were enemies, or that Salieri killed Mozart, originates with the 1830 verse drama ''Mozart and Salieri'' by Alexander Pushkin, though most people know it from the film ''Film/{{Amadeus}}''. In real life, Mozart and Salieri stood on amicable terms, even writing a piece (unfortunately lost now) together, but a lot of people who should know better still discuss Salieri's supposed ill will toward Mozart as though it were historical fact.
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