History Main / WithUsOrAgainstUs

11th Jun '16 4:20:16 PM nombretomado
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* In the ''SwordOfTruth'' series, one of the explicitly stated {{Aesop}}s is that our lives are our own, and we should do with them as we choose. Not a horribly warped lesson, right? Yet Goodkind turns this into a BrokenAesop with parts of the rest of the books that claim the only "real" choice for our lives is to fall in line with his views, and that any other choice just makes you as wrong than the bad guys. Even if people have been lied to all their lives, like the Hakens in ''Soul of the Fire'', they either side with Richard, or they have crossed the MoralEventHorizon, and should die like the evil swine they are.

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* In the ''SwordOfTruth'' ''Literature/SwordOfTruth'' series, one of the explicitly stated {{Aesop}}s is that our lives are our own, and we should do with them as we choose. Not a horribly warped lesson, right? Yet Goodkind turns this into a BrokenAesop with parts of the rest of the books that claim the only "real" choice for our lives is to fall in line with his views, and that any other choice just makes you as wrong than the bad guys. Even if people have been lied to all their lives, like the Hakens in ''Soul of the Fire'', they either side with Richard, or they have crossed the MoralEventHorizon, and should die like the evil swine they are.
28th May '16 4:53:37 AM justanid
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In a nutshell, this is a form of extremism that does acknowledge that there's a [[GreyAndGrayMorality gray]] area between {{black and white|Morality}}, but that everything that isn't white is ''still'' as bad as black. A SubTrope of FalseDichotomy.

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In a nutshell, this is a form of extremism that does acknowledge that there's a [[GreyAndGrayMorality gray]] area between {{black and white|Morality}}, but that everything that isn't white is ''still'' as bad as black. A SubTrope of FalseDichotomy.
black.



TruthInTelevision, as anyone who has gone to a FlameWar on a political or religious MessageBoard can attest. TheOtherWiki [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27re_either_with_us%2C_or_against_us can attest, too]]. The phrase "if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem" is frequently used as a more polite-sounding version that nonetheless amounts to the same thing.



TruthInTelevision, as anyone who has gone to a FlameWar on a political or religious MessageBoard can attest. TheOtherWiki [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27re_either_with_us%2C_or_against_us can attest, too]]. The phrase "if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem" is frequently used as a more polite-sounding version that nonetheless amounts to the same thing.

See also BlackAndWhiteInsanity, ActivistFundamentalistAntics, and WeAreStrugglingTogether. This may lead to NeutralityBacklash.

[[noreallife]]

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TruthInTelevision, as anyone who has gone to a FlameWar on a political or religious MessageBoard can attest. TheOtherWiki [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27re_either_with_us%2C_or_against_us can attest, too]]. The phrase "if you are not part SubTrope of the solution, you are part of the problem" is frequently used as a more polite-sounding version that nonetheless amounts to the same thing.

FalseDichotomy.

See also BlackAndWhiteInsanity, ActivistFundamentalistAntics, and WeAreStrugglingTogether. This may May lead to NeutralityBacklash.

[[noreallife]][[noreallife]] %% No Real Life Examples, please. %%
20th May '16 7:44:17 PM Eddy1215
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Added DiffLines:

* In ''Series/PowerRangersSPD'', Emperor Grumm gave Piggy this ultimatum to ensure that he had his aid in his conquest of Earth. Even when Piggy said that he'd swear allegiance to him, Grumm ''still'' demanded he go into a pit of torture for a day to think it over.
28th Apr '16 12:05:24 PM VVK
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[[folder:Webcomics]]
* In [[http://basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions/2011/4/5/how-to-explore-your-emotions.html this]] ''Webcomic/BasicInstructions'':
--> '''Rick''': Your theory is a nice start, but I can break down my feelings even further. I have identified two basic emotions.\\
'''Scott''': Really?! Just two?!\\
'''Rick''': Yes, "anger" and "not anger." It used to be three emotions, but I eliminated "less anger."
[[/folder]]
22nd Apr '16 2:31:01 PM Josef5678
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** But not if you are a main character: your BadAss status allows you to be supportive or enemy of the World Government with abandon. Neutral countries, on the other hand, have to accept Government leadership, or their whole population will be deported and enslaved. Because the alternative is pirates.

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** But not if you are a main character: your Your BadAss status allows you to be supportive or enemy of the World Government with abandon. Neutral countries, on the other hand, have to accept Government leadership, or their whole population will be deported and enslaved. Because the alternative is pirates.
22nd Apr '16 4:47:46 AM cybertoy0
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* ''Franchise/OnePiece'', but not if you are a main character: your BadAss status allows you to be supportive or enemy of the World Government with abandon. Neutral countries, on the other hand, have to accept Government leadership, or their whole population will be deported and enslaved. Because the alternative is pirates.

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* ''Franchise/OnePiece'', but ''Franchise/OnePiece'':
** But
not if you are a main character: your BadAss status allows you to be supportive or enemy of the World Government with abandon. Neutral countries, on the other hand, have to accept Government leadership, or their whole population will be deported and enslaved. Because the alternative is pirates.pirates.
** Essentially how the New World works. As it is demonstrated with the Worst Generation post-timeskip, the only way to survive is to overthrow them (ie. Law and Kid's alliances who are planning to topple Kaido and Shanks respectively) or swallow your pride and serve under them (ie. Bege and Drake).
10th Apr '16 10:14:35 AM Josef5678
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*** Although later in the series she does learn to be bothered by it when it's pointed out that Odo worked for the Cardassians, even after he learned that they had no real interest in "justice", and was therefore a "collaborator" by the very vague definitions she used.



* Ulfric Stormcloak of ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsVSkyrim Skyrim]]'' is like this. In the words of Jarl Balgruuf:

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* ''TheElderScrollsVSkyrim'':
**
Ulfric Stormcloak of ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsVSkyrim Skyrim]]'' is like this. In the words of Jarl Balgruuf:



** To Ulfric's credit, he understands that people in general have more nuanced reasons for not necessarily joining his cause. On the other hand, his second-in-command, Galmar, quotes this trope nearly verbatim
10th Apr '16 10:09:23 AM Josef5678
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* The page quote is from ''Film/RevengeOfTheSith''. When Vader throws that line at Obi-Wan, he simply responds, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" (which, ironically, is itself an absolute) and ignites his saber.

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* The page quote is from ''Film/RevengeOfTheSith''. ''Film/RevengeOfTheSith'': When Vader throws that line at Obi-Wan, he simply responds, "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" (which, ironically, is itself an absolute) and ignites his saber.
10th Apr '16 10:07:49 AM Josef5678
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* ''OnePiece'', but not if you are a main character: your BadAss status allows you to be supportive or enemy of the World Government with abandon. Neutral countries, on the other hand, have to accept Government leadership, or their whole population will be deported and enslaved. Because the alternative is pirates.

to:

* ''OnePiece'', ''Franchise/OnePiece'', but not if you are a main character: your BadAss status allows you to be supportive or enemy of the World Government with abandon. Neutral countries, on the other hand, have to accept Government leadership, or their whole population will be deported and enslaved. Because the alternative is pirates.



* In ''ASongOfIceAndFire'' Melisandre believes that people either are on the side of her god [[LightIsNotGood R'hllor]] or that of the [[EvilIsDeathlyCold Great Other]]. She uses the analogy of a half-rotten onion to prove to Ser Davos that a man who is half-evil is still evil, not good.

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* In ''ASongOfIceAndFire'' ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' Melisandre believes that people either are on the side of her god [[LightIsNotGood R'hllor]] or that of the [[EvilIsDeathlyCold Great Other]]. She uses the analogy of a half-rotten onion to prove to Ser Davos that a man who is half-evil is still evil, not good.
10th Apr '16 10:06:47 AM Josef5678
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* The Atlantic Federation of ''Anime/MobileSuitGundamSEED'' does this with regards to [[TheKingdom Orb]]. Orb has a mass driver, which the Atlantic Federation needs, so they give them this trope as an ultimatum[[note]]This was done mainly by Muruta Azrael; the other leaders of the Atlantic Federation were very reluctant to go along with it[[/note]]. It happens all over again in ''Anime/MobileSuitGundamSEEDDestiny'', (albeit done by [[WesternTerrorists Blue Cosmos]] / [[AncientConspiracy Logos]] this time) when the Destroy Gundam is unleashed on the western Eurasian Federation for being too sympathetic to ZAFT. Durandal also pulls this at the end of the series, stating that anyone who doesn't agree to his Destiny Plan is a threat to world peace, in with the aforementioned terrorists and deserve to be eliminated via KillSat.
** Kira himself also shares this view to a point. Or at least this is what he tells Athrun after he repeatedly tries to justify his siding against Orb, and Kira promptly shuts him down by saying regardless of how he wants to view it, he's still attacking soliders of their nation and that makes him an enemy. He doesn't kill Athrun though, and in fact is largely forgiving of anyone fighting against him, unlike most of the other factions.

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* ''Anime/MobileSuitGundamSEED'':
**
The Atlantic Federation of ''Anime/MobileSuitGundamSEED'' does this with regards to [[TheKingdom Orb]]. Orb has a mass driver, which the Atlantic Federation needs, so they give them this trope as an ultimatum[[note]]This was done mainly by Muruta Azrael; the other leaders of the Atlantic Federation were very reluctant to go along with it[[/note]]. It happens all over again in ''Anime/MobileSuitGundamSEEDDestiny'', (albeit done by [[WesternTerrorists Blue Cosmos]] / [[AncientConspiracy Logos]] this time) when the Destroy Gundam is unleashed on the western Eurasian Federation for being too sympathetic to ZAFT. Durandal also pulls this at the end of the series, stating that anyone who doesn't agree to his Destiny Plan is a threat to world peace, in with the aforementioned terrorists and deserve to be eliminated via KillSat.
** Kira himself also shares this view to a point. Or at least this is what he tells Athrun after he repeatedly tries to justify his siding against Orb, and Kira promptly shuts him down by saying regardless of how he wants to view it, he's still attacking soliders of their nation and that makes him an enemy. He doesn't kill Athrun though, and in fact is largely forgiving of anyone fighting against him, unlike most of the other factions.



* ''Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine'': ''Commander'' Kira tells this lesson to the Cardassians when they've started a rebellion. She's reminded in the same episode that Odo (her lover) used to be against the Bajorans while the Cardassians were occupying her planet.
** Also, Kira to Odo: "We used to have a saying in the resistance, 'If you're not fighting them, you're helping them.'" Kira holds a very dichotomised view of "collaborators", particularly in the days immediately after the Cardassian Occupation, and one which is challenged on several occasions through the course of the series.
** In ''The Darkness and the Light'' members of her former terrorists cell were killed. Eventually she found that it was a Cardassian wounded in one of their bombings seeking revenge. He stated he'd been a civilian servant, not involved with the crimes against Bajorans, and worked in a building they bombed. Kira doesn't care-she considers them all guilty, as [[OccupiersOutOfOurCountry none of them should have been there on Bajor to begin with]]. Yes, there is a reason she admits to being a former ''terrorist''...

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* ''Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine'': ''Commander'' ''Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine'':
** Commander
Kira tells this lesson to the Cardassians when they've started a rebellion. She's reminded in the same episode that Odo (her lover) used to be against the Bajorans while the Cardassians were occupying her planet.
** Also, Kira to Odo: "We used to have a saying in the resistance, 'If you're not fighting them, you're helping them.'" Kira holds a very dichotomised view of "collaborators", particularly in the days immediately after the Cardassian Occupation, and one which is challenged on several occasions through the course of the series.
** In ''The "The Darkness and the Light'' Light", members of her former terrorists cell were killed. Eventually she found that it was a Cardassian wounded in one of their bombings seeking revenge. He stated he'd been a civilian servant, not involved with the crimes against Bajorans, and worked in a building they bombed. Kira doesn't care-she considers them all guilty, as [[OccupiersOutOfOurCountry none of them should have been there on Bajor to begin with]]. Yes, there is a reason she admits to being a former ''terrorist''...



* The Scarlet Crusade of ''WorldOfWarcraft'' believes its holy purpose is to destroy the Scourge. However, they believe that anybody who has not joined the Crusade is likely a carrier of the plague and is thus their enemy as well. Only when preparing to face Kel'thuzad have they grudgingly worked alongside other groups.

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* ''VideoGame/WorldOfWarcraft'':
**
The Scarlet Crusade of ''WorldOfWarcraft'' believes its holy purpose is to destroy the Scourge. However, they believe that anybody who has not joined the Crusade is likely a carrier of the plague and is thus their enemy as well. Only when preparing to face Kel'thuzad have they grudgingly worked alongside other groups.



* In ''VideoGame/PlaystationAllStarsBattleRoyale'', this is the reason for [[VideoGame/InFamous Good!Cole Macgrath]] starting up a rivalry with [[VideoGame/MetalGearRisingRevengeance Raiden.]]

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* In ''VideoGame/PlaystationAllStarsBattleRoyale'', this ''VideoGame/PlaystationAllStarsBattleRoyale'':
** This
is the reason for [[VideoGame/InFamous Good!Cole Macgrath]] starting up a rivalry with [[VideoGame/MetalGearRisingRevengeance Raiden.]]
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