History Main / WhatMeasureIsANonbadass

3rd Dec '17 8:08:52 PM FRizer
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If the character in question is far more badass than the fandom gives them credit for, they may well be UnderestimatingBadassery. In a video game, they may become a TierInducedScrappy of the low tier variety, and/or suffering from a personal ScrappyMechanic. In rare cases, the fandom know that a character is badass, but dislikes them all the same, either because the character isn't "badass enough" or because they are badass for reasons other than, for example, fighting ability. A quick way to test this is to think about what a character does in fiction and wait to see if any FridgeLogic emerges. This often stems from how people have different ideas on what "badass" even ''means'' - see Analysis.{{Badass}} for explanation.

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If the character in question is far more badass than the fandom gives them credit for, they may well be UnderestimatingBadassery. They may have [[WhatKindOfLamePowerIsHeartAnyway a lame/stupid-sounding power]] (or maybe even none) when others have cooler powers. In a video game, they may become a TierInducedScrappy of the low tier variety, and/or suffering from a personal ScrappyMechanic. In rare cases, the fandom know that a character is badass, but dislikes them all the same, either because the character isn't "badass enough" or because they are badass for reasons other than, for example, fighting ability. A quick way to test this is to think about what a character does in fiction and wait to see if any FridgeLogic emerges. This often stems from how people have different ideas on what "badass" even ''means'' - see Analysis.{{Badass}} for explanation.
20th Nov '17 11:28:01 PM FRizer
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The idea of a fandom and/or characters in a series disliking someone simply for not living up to the level of badassery that would be expected of the series or genre. Even more so if a little Angst is involved: expect that someone to be called out as {{wangst}}y.

This trope also leads to something of an AntiIntellectualism attitude: The hard, grumpy, antisocial badass will be worshipped for being manly and tough, while TheSmartGuy, even if they're just as awesome, will be treated as a pussy because they dare to resort to anything other than their fists (even though the smarter character will often use certain [[TheGunslinger tropes]] [[CuttingTheKnot that are]] [[ThePlan seen as awesome]]).

If the character in question is far more badass than the fandom gives them credit for, they may well be UnderestimatingBadassery. In rare cases, the fandom know that a character is badass, but dislikes them all the same, either because the character isn't "badass enough" or because they are badass for reasons other than, for example, fighting ability. A quick way to test this is to think about what a character does in fiction and wait to see if any FridgeLogic emerges. This often stems from how people have different ideas on what "badass" even ''means'' - see Analysis.{{Badass}} for explanation.

Compare RealWomenDontWearDresses, ARealManIsAKiller. It may invoke {{Double Standard}}s.

This trope is possibly a consequence of IJustWantToBeBadass. The WishFulfillment aspect of fiction generally makes people want to see characters they identify with do things that are cool/heroic/manly, which allows them to experience badassery via a proxy of themselves. When the audience is denied their WishFulfillment, they may dislike it and displace that dislike onto a character. Generally, any character that isn't a nail chewing badass (and/or is capable of showing... *eugh* ''emotion'') will be instantly dismissed as a [[TheScrappy Scrappy]] or CreatorsPet.

Contrast MemeticBadass, where someone gets more reputation for being a badass than they should be.

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The idea of a fandom and/or characters in a series disliking someone simply for not living up to the level of badassery that would be expected of the series or genre. Even more so if a little Angst is involved: expect that someone to be called out as {{wangst}}y.

{{wangst}}y. Even more so if they, oh, are pacifists. Even more so if the character isn't supposed to be that badass (their importance as a character lies in something else, such as being a strategist or a moral support) and then gets compared by other characters who actually are badasses in the story.

This trope also leads to something of an AntiIntellectualism attitude: The hard, grumpy, antisocial badass will be worshipped for being manly and tough, while TheSmartGuy, even if they're just as awesome, will be treated as a pussy because they dare to resort to anything other than their fists (even though the smarter character will often use certain [[TheGunslinger tropes]] [[CuttingTheKnot that are]] [[ThePlan seen as awesome]]). \n\n Especially if they appear in a same work, or even at a same scene.

If the character in question is far more badass than the fandom gives them credit for, they may well be UnderestimatingBadassery. In a video game, they may become a TierInducedScrappy of the low tier variety, and/or suffering from a personal ScrappyMechanic. In rare cases, the fandom know that a character is badass, but dislikes them all the same, either because the character isn't "badass enough" or because they are badass for reasons other than, for example, fighting ability. A quick way to test this is to think about what a character does in fiction and wait to see if any FridgeLogic emerges. This often stems from how people have different ideas on what "badass" even ''means'' - see Analysis.{{Badass}} for explanation.

Compare RealWomenDontWearDresses, ARealManIsAKiller. See also AmericanKirbyIsHardcore; both that trope and this are fueled by ValuesDissonance when it concerns about what makes a badass. It may invoke {{Double Standard}}s.

This trope is possibly a consequence of IJustWantToBeBadass. The WishFulfillment aspect of fiction generally makes people want to see characters they identify with do things that are cool/heroic/manly, which allows them to experience badassery via a proxy of themselves. When the audience is denied their WishFulfillment, they may dislike it and displace that dislike onto a character. Generally, any character that isn't a nail chewing badass with an attitude (and/or is capable of showing... *eugh* ''emotion'') will be instantly dismissed as a [[TheScrappy Scrappy]] or CreatorsPet.

CreatorsPet - try contrasting RatedMForManly with any of the HiddenBadass tropes, and you get the gist of this trope - at least [[ValuesDissonance for the Western audience]].

Contrast MemeticBadass, where someone gets more reputation for of being a badass than they should be.should.



* Generally speaking, if you follow an anime series in which the heroine is bullied or abused (specially by her classmates or her family) and doesn't resort to beating them up as a result... please think twice before reading the comments and/or reading about it on blogs. Mikan from ''Manga/AliceAcademy'', Tohru from ''Manga/FruitsBasket'' and Nanako of ''Manga/OniisamaE'' are specially hated by viewers who blame ''them'' for the hardships they go through "because they're weak whores who don't fight back".

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* Generally speaking, if you follow an anime series in which the heroine is bullied or abused (specially by her classmates or her family) and doesn't resort to beating them up as a result... please think twice before reading the comments and/or reading about it on blogs. Mikan from ''Manga/AliceAcademy'', Tohru from ''Manga/FruitsBasket'' and Nanako of ''Manga/OniisamaE'' are specially hated by viewers who blame ''them'' for the hardships they go through "because they're weak whores who don't fight back". In Japan, ''not'' fighting back is considered a strength of character.



* ''Manga/{{Bleach}}'': Most characters in the story that have suffered from [[HeroicBSOD break-downs and moments of giving up entirely]] tend to receive sympathy, justifications and forgiveness by the majority of the fandom, who regard it as good character development in a story about constantly warring spiritual factions. Orihime is a [[TheMedic pacifistic healer]] with [[BarrierWarrior shielding powers]], who is singled out both in-universe and out as being unsuited for battle, leading to a kidnapping that split the fandom due to abuse of different kinds being [[TraumaCongaLine heaped upon her]] without respite until it reaches [[HeroicBSOD breaking point]]. Part of the fandom believed this to be the natural outcome of her type of powers and personality, given that even talented fighters were struggling to succeed. Part of the fandom believed this made her irredeemable for not transforming into a warrior character to fight back in a successful way. The debate became high profile enough to reach the [[Creator/TiteKubo creator's]] ears, whereupon he [[WordOfGod stepped in]] to explain that Orihime's experience is a natural human reaction to the level of abuse and stress she had suffered. The fandom uses the author's statement on both sides of the debate.

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* ''Manga/{{Bleach}}'': Most characters in the story that have suffered from [[HeroicBSOD break-downs and moments of giving up entirely]] tend to receive sympathy, justifications and forgiveness by the majority of the fandom, who regard it as good character development in a story about constantly warring spiritual factions. Orihime is a [[TheMedic pacifistic healer]] with [[BarrierWarrior shielding powers]], who is singled out both in-universe and out as being unsuited for battle, leading to a kidnapping that split the fandom due to abuse of different kinds being [[TraumaCongaLine heaped upon her]] without respite until it reaches [[HeroicBSOD breaking point]]. Part of the fandom believed this to be the natural outcome of her type of powers and personality, given that even talented fighters were struggling to succeed. Part of the fandom believed this made her irredeemable for not transforming into a warrior character to fight back in a successful way. (Yes, [[DoubleStandard it's only okay to get a break-down if you have proven yourself to be a bonafide badass]].) The debate became high profile enough to reach the [[Creator/TiteKubo creator's]] ears, whereupon he [[WordOfGod stepped in]] to explain that Orihime's experience is a natural human reaction to the level of abuse and stress she had suffered. The fandom uses the author's statement on both sides of the debate.



** Rossiu is considered TheScrappy by a large number of fans because he's the OnlySaneMan and more subdued and cynical than the rest of the cast.

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** Rossiu is considered TheScrappy by a large number of fans because he's the OnlySaneMan and more subdued and cynical than the rest of the cast. This wouldn't be so bad, were it not for how 1) the verse of Gurren Lagann literally running on hot-bloodedness and determination, 2) Rossiu himself actually trying to subdue his comrades' hot-blooded antics, 3) he's a reasonable person when his comrades would rather, in their own words, "kick reason to the curb".



* ''Anime/PuellaMagiMadokaMagica'' : Madoka Kaname is [[TheScrappy condemned by the fanbase]] for being [[{{Wangst}} emotionally crushed]] by all that happens to her at the start. These fans focus on Madoka's justified grief at the situation without taking into account that [[spoiler: Madoka is a firmly proactive protagonist, saving people from unwittingly killing themselves at the hands of a witch, singlehandedly trying to stop Sayaka from fighting, and trying to convince Homura to team up with Sayaka for her benefit; all of this meant to establish that trying one's best to do what's right doesn't always result in a happy ending]]. The ending makes it a DefiedTrope, as she [[RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap rescues herself from the scrappy heap]] ''without'' becoming a badass. [[spoiler:She essentially saves everyone with ThePowerOfLove, by {{Rules Lawyer}}ing herself into goddessdom.]]
* ''Anime/YuGiOh'': One of the key reasons some Seto Kaiba fans find Yugi and his friends unlikable. He's stoic and ruthless and doesn't give friendship speeches. This is despite the fact that he's as successful than Joey when it comes to fighting villains. This trope also sums up the attitude to non-dueling main characters who are sometimes seen as useless or unnecessary in a world where DuelsDecideEverything.

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* ''Anime/PuellaMagiMadokaMagica'' : Madoka Kaname is [[TheScrappy condemned by the fanbase]] for being [[{{Wangst}} emotionally crushed]] by all that happens to her at the start. These fans focus on Madoka's justified grief at the situation without taking into account that [[spoiler: Madoka is a firmly proactive protagonist, saving people from unwittingly killing themselves at the hands of a witch, singlehandedly trying to stop Sayaka from fighting, and trying to convince Homura to team up with Sayaka for her benefit; all of this meant to establish that trying one's best to do what's right doesn't always result in a happy ending]]. The ending makes it a DefiedTrope, as she [[RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap rescues herself from the scrappy heap]] ''without'' becoming a badass. badass, although what she actually did is awesome in itself: [[spoiler:She essentially saves everyone with ThePowerOfLove, by {{Rules Lawyer}}ing herself into goddessdom.]]
* ''Anime/YuGiOh'': One of the key reasons some Seto Kaiba fans find Yugi and his friends unlikable. He's stoic and ruthless and doesn't give friendship speeches. This is despite the fact that he's as successful than Joey as [[ButtMonkey Joey]] when it comes to fighting villains. This trope also sums up the attitude to non-dueling main characters who are sometimes seen as useless or unnecessary in a world where DuelsDecideEverything.



** Almost every non-Saiyan fighter is hit with this to some extent, but Krillin and Yamcha (the latter especially) get some of the worst criticism. Both guys are ''very'' strong by human terms but are called "weak" by a good chunk of the fanbase because they're not as strong as the Saiyans. They also get criticized for dying a lot despite being far from the only characters that died more than once.
** The more zealous Gohan's fans have been given the character a hard time since he no longer trains and wants to live a normal life. Because of that he experience BadassDecay and isn't the strongest unfused character anymore, which is apparently all Gohan is worth to these fans since he's now a wasted and terrible character. This is ignoring that Gohan has said since the Cell Games that he didn't like fighting, and he now has a wife and child to take care of. He is also still one of the strongest characters in the series, but 'he's not the strongest anymore, so he's terrible'.

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** Almost every non-Saiyan fighter is hit with this to some extent, but Krillin and Yamcha (the latter especially) get some of the worst criticism. Both guys are ''very'' strong by human terms but are called "weak" by a good chunk of the fanbase because they're not as strong as the Saiyans.Saiyans or the aliens/other creatures they fight. They also get criticized for dying a lot despite being far from the only characters that died more than once.
** The more zealous Gohan's fans have been given the character a hard time since he no longer trains and wants to live a normal life. Because of that he experience BadassDecay and isn't the strongest unfused character anymore, which is apparently all Gohan is worth to these fans since he's now a wasted and terrible character. This is ignoring that Gohan has said since the Cell Games that he didn't like fighting, and he now has a wife and child to take care of. He is also still one of the strongest characters in the series, but 'he's "he's not the strongest anymore, so he's terrible'.terrible".



* ''Roleplay/RecordOfLodossWar'': Deedlit in the OVA is regarded as useless because she doesn't have any shining moments in combat. However, she gets a lot of done with shamanistic magic outside of combat: finding a way out of a trap in the pilot, guiding the group through the Forest Of No Return, protecting them from the hot air vents in the ancient fire dragon's lair, and guiding the others to Parm's location after he gets his ass handed to him by Wagnard

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* ''Roleplay/RecordOfLodossWar'': Deedlit in the OVA is regarded as useless because she doesn't have any shining moments in combat. However, she gets a lot of job done with shamanistic magic outside of combat: finding a way out of a trap in the pilot, guiding the group through the Forest Of No Return, protecting them from the hot air vents in the ancient fire dragon's lair, and guiding the others to Parm's location after he gets his ass handed to him by Wagnard



** ComicBook/{{Cyclops}} holds his own against Franchise/{{Wolverine}} in hand-to-hand combat, takes out the entire team when they're brainwashed and he's injured, beats up six men at once with his eyes shut, pulls off impossible trick shots, ''earns'' the nickname Fearless Leader… and a lot of ''ComicBook/XMen'' fans still think of him as a pussy, because he dares to not get along with Wolverine (which, when you think about it, is pretty badass in its own little way).
*** Also, for the young teen male fan demographic Scott's powers don't look like ''fun''. Yes, they're potent, yes, they can be used to take down most targets...but the constant, unremitting ''self-control'' they demand looks more like work than fun. Which it is; by any reasonable standard Scott's mutant ability is a curse, because he can't control it other than by use of his visor. Thus, even though Scott has, at times, displayed every single identifying mark of the Badass (he is, in fact, a major Badass), he's not the kind of badass a 13 year old boy wants to be.

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** ComicBook/{{Cyclops}} holds his own against Franchise/{{Wolverine}} in hand-to-hand combat, takes out the entire team when they're brainwashed and he's injured, beats up six men at once with his eyes shut, pulls off impossible trick shots, ''earns'' the nickname Fearless Leader… Leader... and a lot of ''ComicBook/XMen'' fans still think of him as a pussy, because he dares to not get along with Wolverine (which, when you think about it, is pretty badass in its own little way).
*** Also, for the young teen male fan demographic Scott's powers don't look like ''fun''. Yes, they're potent, yes, they can be used to take down most targets... but the constant, unremitting ''self-control'' they demand looks more like work than fun. Which it is; by any reasonable standard Scott's mutant ability is a curse, because he can't control it other than by use of his visor. Thus, even though Scott has, at times, displayed every single identifying mark of the Badass (he is, in fact, a major Badass), he's not the kind of badass a 13 year old boy wants to be.



* A BadassNormal hero will sometimes get heat for being 'normal' and not super powered. Yes, that includes Franchise/{{Batman}} (though obviously, this is so rare it's hardly worth mentioning). As there are many superheroes to whom normal problems would be boringly easy, they need threats that will challenge them, but this leaves the badass normals useless in these situations: If they're only human, than it would be ridiculous for them to deal with the same level of threats the other does regularly. In a shared universe, the normal guy will look pathetic in comparison: Franchise/{{Superman}} can deal with planets colliding, while Batman can (just barely) deal with two trains colliding by himself. While they can be compensated in team-ups by the 'normal' guy doing something more flashy (such as performing some insanely cool looking martial arts moves to fight a group of enemies) while the super does something more boring looking (like just a simple backhand to all three), usually there will be a massive power slant, resulting in team-ups being used to deal with middle ground threats at most while SupermanStaysOutOfGotham. Because of this, the BadassNormal will have a certain stigma to deal with: They'll have to really prove they're a tough badass, who can deal with the situation head on, or else they'll be regarded as pathetic. For example:
** Comicbook/{{Hawkeye}} of Comicbook/TheAvengers: Despite being one of the most popular of the group and one of the most badass heroes in the Marvel Universe, he's often seen, in universe and out, by some as being 'the weakest' of Avengers, since while his teammates include [[Comicbook/TheMightyThor Thor]], [[Comicbook/IncredibleHulk Hulk]], and Comicbook/IronMan, he's 'just a guy with a bow and arrow'. The fact that he can ''keep up with'' these guys without faltering is sadly lost on some people.
** Due to the popularity of Badass Normals (Franchise/{{Batman}} in particular) this can also be a inversion. Now it's the superpowered ones who are seen as less badass because they have superpowers, yet the Badass Normals are written as being able to take on the same threats as they do.

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* A BadassNormal hero will sometimes get heat for being 'normal' and not super powered. Yes, that includes Franchise/{{Batman}} (though obviously, this is so rare it's hardly worth mentioning). As there are many superheroes to whom normal problems would be boringly easy, they need threats that will challenge them, but this leaves the badass normals useless in these situations: If they're only human, than it would be ridiculous for them to deal with the same level of threats the other does regularly. In a shared universe, the normal guy will look pathetic in comparison: Franchise/{{Superman}} can deal with planets colliding, while Batman can (just barely) deal with two trains colliding by himself. While they can be compensated in team-ups by the 'normal' guy doing something more flashy (such as performing some insanely cool looking martial arts moves to fight a group of enemies) while the super does something more boring looking (like just a simple backhand to all three), usually there will be a massive power slant, resulting in team-ups being used to deal with middle ground threats at most while SupermanStaysOutOfGotham. Because of this, the BadassNormal will have a certain stigma to deal with: They'll have to really prove they're a tough badass, who can deal with the situation head on, or else they'll be regarded as pathetic. Thus, they're often a zigzagged example: either they get a lot of flak for being powerless, or a lot of praise for being able to kick as much ass as their superpowered comrades; this all depends on the writing. For example:
** Comicbook/{{Hawkeye}} of Comicbook/TheAvengers: Despite being one of the most popular of the group and one of the most badass heroes in the Marvel Universe, he's often seen, in universe and out, by some as being 'the weakest' of Avengers, since while his teammates include [[Comicbook/TheMightyThor Thor]], [[Comicbook/IncredibleHulk Hulk]], and Comicbook/IronMan, Comicbook/IronMan (who also is a normal most of the time, just with PoweredArmor), he's 'just a guy with a bow and arrow'. The fact that he can ''keep up with'' these guys without faltering is sadly lost on some people.
** Due to the popularity of Badass Normals (Franchise/{{Batman}} in particular) this can also be a inversion. Now it's the superpowered ones who are seen as less badass because they have superpowers, yet the Badass Normals are written as being able to take on the same threats as they do.
people.



[[folder:Films -- Live-Action]]

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[[folder:Films -- Live-Action]][[folder:Films]]



%%Weblinks are not examples.
%%* ''Film/TheForceAwakens'': [[https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f2/ab/d5/f2abd5a88db975bb07408ba0c12cddf5.jpg This picture]] should tell you what a lot of fans think about Kylo Ren.

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%%Weblinks are not examples.
%%*
* ''Film/TheForceAwakens'': Kylo Ren, the newest villain. The guy, as [[https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f2/ab/d5/f2abd5a88db975bb07408ba0c12cddf5.jpg This this picture]] should tell you what says, can stop laser blasts in midair, tank a lot shot from Chewbacca, chew out his generals freely, and many more. He's Darth Vader's second coming. However - partly ''because'' of that - he's also seen as not badass enough, as fans think his face below his mask looks "emo" as well as how he has [[spoiler:some daddy issues with Han Solo]]. And, unlike Luke, who couldn't really hold his own against Vader until much later, here Rey (who's about as much of a newbie as Luke back then) can fight Kylo Ren.Ren to a standstill.



* ''Videogame/MegaManX'': The title character of the series gets this a lot. His viewpoint (except for in [[Videogame/MegaManX7 the seventh game]]) is that he'd rather not fight, but does because he feels he has to. Because he wishes he didn't have to go to war, he's usually portrayed as a pansy and/or gay (though the latter has more to do with the HoYay between him and Zero). Zero, by contrast, is a badass killbot with a laser sword, who enjoys EpicBattleBoredom, and is thus ''much'' more popular. Fans also like to completely ignore the fact that once X has all his upgrades and armors, he's an unstoppable OneManArmy who is much more powerful than Zero. Not only that but both he and Zero have climatically fought each other ''to a tie'', Zero outright says X is the better Hunter, and a bad guy [[ColonyDrop killed millions]] so X would fight him all-out (and had no interest in fighting Zero). But no, still a pansy because he realizes that after 8 wars, more fighting doesn't solve anything. It's truly amazing how many people can dismiss him technically beating Zero in X5, while surrounded by a virus that weakens him and renders Zero {{Nigh Invulnerab|ility}}le, and only succumbs to its effects ''after'' beating the death machine into the ground.

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* ''Videogame/MegaManX'': The title character of the series gets this a lot. His viewpoint (except for in [[Videogame/MegaManX7 the seventh game]]) game]], where he really ''is'' a pansy until late in the game) is that [[MartialPacifist he'd rather not fight, but does because he feels he has to.to]]. Because he wishes he didn't have to go to war, he's usually portrayed as a pansy and/or gay (though the latter has more to do with the HoYay between him and Zero). Zero, by contrast, is a badass killbot with a laser sword, who enjoys EpicBattleBoredom, never hesitates in fighting his opponents, and is thus ''much'' more popular. Fans also like to completely ignore the fact that once X has all his upgrades and armors, he's an unstoppable OneManArmy who is much more powerful than Zero. Not only that but both he and Zero have climatically fought each other ''to a tie'', Zero outright says X is the better Hunter, and a bad guy [[ColonyDrop killed millions]] so X would fight him all-out (and had no interest in fighting Zero). But no, still a pansy because he realizes that after 8 wars, more fighting doesn't solve anything. It's truly amazing how many people can dismiss him technically beating Zero in X5, while surrounded by a virus that weakens him and renders Zero {{Nigh Invulnerab|ility}}le, and only succumbs to its effects ''after'' beating the death machine into the ground.ground.
** In regards to the ''Mega Man'' franchise as a whole, X is often viewed as the most "adult" Mega Man of them all and thus derides the other incarnations (like [[Videogame/MegaManClassic the original Mega Man]] or [[Videogame/MegaManLegends Mega Man Volnutt]]) as being not as badass. Despite them potentially being just as powerful, if not more, than X is.



* ''VideoGame/TheKingOfFighters'': One of the reasons why Yuki was hated. Since she was a mix of BarrierMaiden and OrdinaryHighSchoolStudent who didn't fight, fans of other female characters thought she was stupid, useless, weak, and [[DieForOurShip stole Kyo from "more deserving" strong females]] (and/or [[HoYay other males]]).

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* ''VideoGame/TheKingOfFighters'': One of the reasons why Yuki was hated. Since she was a mix of BarrierMaiden and OrdinaryHighSchoolStudent who didn't fight, fight (it's a fighting game), fans of other female characters thought she was stupid, useless, weak, and [[DieForOurShip stole Kyo from "more deserving" strong females]] (and/or [[HoYay other males]]). It doesn't help that she herself isn't really prominent in the story.



* It seems that in ''VideoGame/BlazBlue'', the only way you could attain fan interest if that if you have Godlike, [[GameBreaker reality-breaking]] powers or can stand up to them, or for the fans of 'good morality', can go toe-to-toe with the two broken villains: Terumi and Relius (and always refusing them). These are probably why even Platinum the Trinity, who could be considered TheScrappy, might be escaping it a bit, because she's the host of Trinity Glassfile, one of the Six Heroes. This is why back in the old days, Jin Kisaragi was widely hated in favor of his more badass and more 'morally straight' Hakumen (in spite of Hakumen being a KnightTemplar, apparently being a badass means that everything you do is more righteous). This is also why fans enjoy morally questionable characters like Rachel and Kokonoe because they oppose Terumi and are some of the most powerful individuals in the verse. This is also why characters like Litchi and Arakune are largely ignored or derided even with their tragic story ongoing... solely because the former is OvershadowedByAwesome (in both muscles and brains, by Kokonoe) and ''dares'' become an UnwittingPawn for those villains and mopes around her personal problem instead of shoving them off and focusing on awesome things like world-saving, and the other one... seems to never get past of being a CannonFodder type {{Mook|s}} in the eyes of many. This is also why Noel is always considered a whiny crybaby, because of her acts in the earlier games, and only after Chronophantasma that she gains confidence that fans started looking up to her more, though not everyone (and eventually when she once again became central of the plot in ''Central Fiction'' as a... ''terrified MacGuffinGirl''... a portion of the fandom that warmed up on her turned cold on her AGAIN), and this is also why Makoto is praised like hell, because if anything, she tanks up everything Terumi threw to her, continues being a 'good guy' and wrecked his plans (even by accident) in her CS EX story. This whole thing is more prevalent in America, because [[AmericanKirbyIsHardcore badassery is worshipped like a God there.]]

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* It seems that in ''VideoGame/BlazBlue'', the only way you could attain fan interest if that if you have Godlike, [[GameBreaker reality-breaking]] powers or can stand up to them, or for the fans of 'good morality', can go toe-to-toe with the two broken villains: Terumi and Relius (and always refusing them). These are probably why even Platinum the Trinity, who could be considered TheScrappy, might be escaping it a bit, because she's the host of Trinity Glassfile, one of the Six Heroes. This is why back in the old days, Jin Kisaragi was widely hated in favor of his more badass and more 'morally straight' persona Hakumen (in spite of Hakumen being a KnightTemplar, apparently being a badass means that everything you do is more righteous). This is also why fans enjoy morally questionable characters like Rachel and Kokonoe because they oppose Terumi and are some of the most powerful individuals in the verse. This is also why characters like Litchi and Arakune are largely ignored or derided even with their tragic story ongoing... solely because the former is OvershadowedByAwesome (in both muscles and brains, by Kokonoe) and ''dares'' become an UnwittingPawn for those villains and mopes around her personal problem instead of shoving them off and focusing on awesome things like world-saving, and the other one... seems to never get past of being a CannonFodder type {{Mook|s}} in the eyes of many. This is also why Noel is always considered a whiny crybaby, because of her acts in the earlier games, and only after Chronophantasma that she gains confidence that fans started looking up to her more, though not everyone (and eventually when she once again became central of the plot in ''Central Fiction'' as a... ''terrified MacGuffinGirl''... a portion of the fandom that warmed up on her turned cold on her AGAIN), and this is also why Makoto is praised like hell, because if anything, she tanks up everything Terumi threw to her, continues being a 'good guy' and wrecked his plans (even by accident) in her CS EX story. This whole thing is more prevalent in America, because [[AmericanKirbyIsHardcore badassery is worshipped like a God there.]]
20th Nov '17 5:02:52 PM FRizer
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If the character in question is far more badass than the fandom gives them credit for, they may well be UnderestimatingBadassery. In rare cases, the fandom know that a character is badass, but dislikes them all the same, either because the character isn't "badass enough" or because they are badass for reasons other than, for example, fighting ability. A quick way to test this is to think about what a character does in fiction and wait to see if any FridgeLogic emerges.

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If the character in question is far more badass than the fandom gives them credit for, they may well be UnderestimatingBadassery. In rare cases, the fandom know that a character is badass, but dislikes them all the same, either because the character isn't "badass enough" or because they are badass for reasons other than, for example, fighting ability. A quick way to test this is to think about what a character does in fiction and wait to see if any FridgeLogic emerges.
emerges. This often stems from how people have different ideas on what "badass" even ''means'' - see Analysis.{{Badass}} for explanation.


Added DiffLines:

Contrast MemeticBadass, where someone gets more reputation for being a badass than they should be.
6th Nov '17 11:42:57 AM merotoker
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** ComicBook/{{Cyclops}} holds his own against Comicbook/{{Wolverine}} in hand-to-hand combat, takes out the entire team when they're brainwashed and he's injured, beats up six men at once with his eyes shut, pulls off impossible trick shots, ''earns'' the nickname Fearless Leader… and a lot of ''ComicBook/XMen'' fans still think of him as a pussy, because he dares to not get along with Wolverine (which, when you think about it, is pretty badass in its own little way).

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** ComicBook/{{Cyclops}} holds his own against Comicbook/{{Wolverine}} Franchise/{{Wolverine}} in hand-to-hand combat, takes out the entire team when they're brainwashed and he's injured, beats up six men at once with his eyes shut, pulls off impossible trick shots, ''earns'' the nickname Fearless Leader… and a lot of ''ComicBook/XMen'' fans still think of him as a pussy, because he dares to not get along with Wolverine (which, when you think about it, is pretty badass in its own little way).



** Eirika is often put under the microscope, nitpicked and/or downright bashed for being a sensitive NiceGirl aside of AllLovingHero and the ActionGirl, with some even openly ''denying that both she and Ephraim are the protagonists of the game''... saying Ephraim is the only lead ''[[FanDumb and using non-canon things like FANART to prove it]]''. This has become worse ever since VideoGame/FireEmblemAwakening has her in the Bride class: it doesn't matter that she's still a fighter and also gains access to staves, HOW DARE THE OFFENSIVE HOBAG WEAR A PRETTY DRESS... nevermind that the whole bride!Eirika is an ''optional'' download, that the Bride class is [[CombatMedic really]] [[LadyofWar pretty]] [[KickingAssInAllHerFinery useful]], and that you can get Eirika as her usual ActionGirl as well if you desire so.

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** Eirika is often put under the microscope, nitpicked and/or downright bashed for being a sensitive NiceGirl {{Nice G|uy}}irl aside of AllLovingHero and the ActionGirl, with some even openly ''denying that both she and Ephraim are the protagonists of the game''... saying Ephraim is the only lead ''[[FanDumb and using non-canon things like FANART to prove it]]''. This has become worse ever since VideoGame/FireEmblemAwakening has her in the Bride class: it doesn't matter that she's still a fighter and also gains access to staves, HOW DARE THE OFFENSIVE HOBAG WEAR A PRETTY DRESS... nevermind that the whole bride!Eirika is an ''optional'' download, that the Bride class is [[CombatMedic really]] [[LadyofWar pretty]] [[KickingAssInAllHerFinery useful]], and that you can get Eirika as her usual ActionGirl as well if you desire so.



* Averted in ''VideoGame/{{Undertale}}'', which endorses compassion and pacifism; in fact, its tagline is "The Friendly RPG where nobody has to die." Also [[DeconstructedTrope deconstructed]] when [[spoiler: it is revealed that repeated acts of violence by the player character will eventually turn them into a sadistic, soulless abomination that thrives on seeing others in pain.]]

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* Averted in ''VideoGame/{{Undertale}}'', which endorses compassion and pacifism; in fact, its tagline is "The Friendly RPG where nobody has to die." Also [[DeconstructedTrope deconstructed]] when [[spoiler: it is revealed that repeated acts of violence by the player character will eventually turn them into a sadistic, soulless abomination that thrives on seeing others in pain.]]pain]].



* The Russian Army in World War 1 is often seen as being weak and nothing but a German Punching Bag. Apparently the roughly 6 ''million'' casualties they took down with them died of laughing at their weakness then.

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* The Russian Army in World War 1 I is often seen as being weak and nothing but a German Punching Bag. Apparently the roughly 6 ''million'' casualties they took down with them died of laughing at their weakness then.
15th Oct '17 7:12:18 PM Togie
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* ''VideoGame/FireEmblemElibe''

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* ''VideoGame/FireEmblemElibe''''VideoGame/FireEmblem:''



** ActionGirl and {{Proud Warrior Race G|uy}}irl Lyndis aka Lyn is used as the yardstick by which a lot of FE females are measured. I.e., lead female Eirika from ''VideoGame/FireEmblemTheSacredStones'' is often compared unfavorably to Lyn (being called "a step backward" in feminism due to being girlier), and "weaker" females like Ninian, Florina or Nino are hotly bashed for "not being strong women" like Lyn is.

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** ActionGirl and {{Proud Warrior Race G|uy}}irl Lyndis aka Lyn is used as the yardstick by which a lot of FE females are measured. I.e., lead female Eirika from ''VideoGame/FireEmblemTheSacredStones'' is often compared unfavorably to Lyn (being called "a step backward" in feminism due to being girlier), and Generally speaking, "weaker" females like Ninian, Florina or Nino are often hotly bashed for "not being strong women" like Lyn is.is. And Naga help you if you’re a female, non-Avatar lord...
12th Aug '17 2:15:46 PM Wyldchyld
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* ''Manga/{{Bleach}}'':
** Orihime is TheMedic, a BarrierWarrior and a true pacifist in a battle manga. In universe and out she is regarded as unsuited for battle. When her TraumaCongaLine was taken to its natural HeroicBSOD climax, she was castigated as irredeemable by a portion of the fanbase for not breaking out of character to fight back against villains even the combat characters were being thrashed by, despite her never once giving up trying to heal and shield those fighters. Conversely, combat characters who have suffered a HeroicBSOD and actually given up entirely (including the main character) receive sympathy, excuses and forgiveness from the fanbase who consider it to be character development. Eventually, WordOfGod himself stepped in to point out that Orihime's experience is quite a natural human reaction to the level of abuse and stress she had suffered. It didn't stop the double-standard.
** Rukia, like Hungary above and Lyndis, is frequently used as the yardstick to measure the "strength" of Bleach women, who often end up compared unfavourably to her, ''especially'' Orihime.

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* ''Manga/{{Bleach}}'':
**
''Manga/{{Bleach}}'': Most characters in the story that have suffered from [[HeroicBSOD break-downs and moments of giving up entirely]] tend to receive sympathy, justifications and forgiveness by the majority of the fandom, who regard it as good character development in a story about constantly warring spiritual factions. Orihime is TheMedic, a BarrierWarrior and a true pacifist in a battle manga. In universe [[TheMedic pacifistic healer]] with [[BarrierWarrior shielding powers]], who is singled out both in-universe and out she is regarded as being unsuited for battle. When her TraumaCongaLine was taken battle, leading to its a kidnapping that split the fandom due to abuse of different kinds being [[TraumaCongaLine heaped upon her]] without respite until it reaches [[HeroicBSOD breaking point]]. Part of the fandom believed this to be the natural HeroicBSOD climax, she was castigated as outcome of her type of powers and personality, given that even talented fighters were struggling to succeed. Part of the fandom believed this made her irredeemable by a portion of the fanbase for not breaking out of transforming into a warrior character to fight back against villains even in a successful way. The debate became high profile enough to reach the combat characters were being thrashed by, despite her never once giving up trying to heal and shield those fighters. Conversely, combat characters who have suffered a HeroicBSOD and actually given up entirely (including the main character) receive sympathy, excuses and forgiveness from the fanbase who consider it to be character development. Eventually, WordOfGod himself [[Creator/TiteKubo creator's]] ears, whereupon he [[WordOfGod stepped in in]] to point out explain that Orihime's experience is quite a natural human reaction to the level of abuse and stress she had suffered. It didn't stop The fandom uses the double-standard.
** Rukia, like Hungary above and Lyndis, is frequently used as
author's statement on both sides of the yardstick to measure the "strength" of Bleach women, who often end up compared unfavourably to her, ''especially'' Orihime.debate.
28th Jul '17 12:10:41 PM Prometheus117
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** Also, Sakura in the VN. She is a DamselInDistress who receives [[FlatCharacter very little characterization outside of her route]] unlike the other main characters, and in her route she doesn't kick ass [[spoiler:at least not when she's being the ApocalypseMaiden trying to destroy the world]] like Saber or Rin, but that doesn't mean it's her fault that she's horrifyingly abused by the Matou family, [[spoiler: as well as raped constantly by her stepbrother Shinji]]. And yet fans continue to bash her, with some of them implying it's her own fault that she's an abuse [[spoiler: and rape]] victim!

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** Also, Sakura in the VN. She is a DamselInDistress who receives [[FlatCharacter very little characterization outside of her route]] unlike the other main characters, and in her route she doesn't kick ass [[spoiler:at least not when she's not being the ApocalypseMaiden trying to destroy the world]] world and causing the suffering of the main cast, including [[PlayerPunch corrupting Saber into a villain and forcing Shirou to kill her]],]] like Saber or Rin, but that doesn't mean it's her fault that she's horrifyingly abused by the Matou family, [[spoiler: as well as raped constantly by her stepbrother Shinji]]. And yet fans continue to bash her, with some of them implying it's her own fault that she's an abuse [[spoiler: and rape]] victim!
5th Jul '17 2:27:08 PM Scabbard
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** Fandom only started to lighten up in the Asami hate when she showed herself as an ActionGirl BadassNormal. And yet the moment she showed ''human'' reactions to the LoveTriangle business, some people were and still are quick to accuse her of being "nothing but Mako's ClingyJealousGirl" (Despite how she mostly ''{{defie|dTrope}}s'' the CJG trope.)

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** Fandom only started to lighten up in the Asami hate when she showed herself as an ActionGirl BadassNormal. And yet the moment she showed ''human'' reactions to the LoveTriangle business, some people were and still are quick to accuse her of being "nothing but Mako's ClingyJealousGirl" (Despite (despite how she mostly ''{{defie|dTrope}}s'' the CJG trope.)
5th Jul '17 2:27:08 PM Scabbard
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5th Jul '17 2:24:47 PM Scabbard
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* Yukiteru from ''Manga/FutureDiary'', in that, much like [[Anime/NeonGenesisEvangelion Shinji]], he is a young boy who was forced into a world of violence. For much of the run he is mostly intent to stay out of the survival game, sometimes protecting as best he can those he cares about (including enemies) and only killing when out of options, with utter revulsion. Importantly, he needs the guidance of Yuno and others to take effective action. Then after 20-30 chapters/18 episodes he [[BreakTheCutie gets broken]] and [[TookALevelInBadass takes a Level in Badass]].

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* Yukiteru from ''Manga/FutureDiary'', in that, much like [[Anime/NeonGenesisEvangelion Shinji]], he is a young boy who was forced into a world of violence. For much of the run he is mostly intent to stay focuses on staying out of the survival game, sometimes protecting as best he can those he cares about (including enemies) and only killing when out of options, with utter revulsion. Importantly, he needs the guidance of Yuno and others to take effective action. Then after 20-30 chapters/18 episodes he [[BreakTheCutie gets broken]] and [[TookALevelInBadass takes a Level in Badass]].
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.WhatMeasureIsANonbadass