History Main / WhatMeasureIsANonBadass

14th Nov '16 1:56:24 PM StFan
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->''"How the hell''
->''Did it do so well?''
->''When the main character is totally gay?''
->''He whines like a girl!''
->''And he fights like one, too!''
->''Crying "I must not run away!"''
->''I always thought that an anime hero was meant to have big hairy balls!''
->''But then this guy, Shinji, seems quite unable to get up whenever he falls!"''

to:

->''"How ->''How the hell''
->''Did
hell\\
Did
it do so well?''
->''When
well?\\
When
the main character is totally gay?''
->''He
gay?\\
He
whines like a girl!''
->''And
girl!\\
And
he fights like one, too!''
->''Crying
too!\\
Crying
"I must not run away!"''
->''I
away!"\\
I
always thought that an anime hero was meant to have big hairy balls!''
->''But
balls!\\
But
then this guy, Shinji, seems quite unable to get up whenever he falls!"''falls!''



[[folder:{{Anime}} and {{Manga}}]]

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[[folder:{{Anime}} and {{Manga}}]][[folder:Anime & Manga]]



* {{Anime/Pokemon}}: Max from the anime, largely due to having no Pokemon.
** Max? Try ''Ash''? Apparently making it far into tournaments filled with the best of the best is 'weak', and 'pathetic' to most fans.

to:

* {{Anime/Pokemon}}: ''Anime/{{Pokemon}}'': Max from the anime, largely due to having no Pokemon.
** Max? Try ''Ash''? Apparently making it far into tournaments filled with the best of the best is 'weak', and 'pathetic' to most fans.
Pokémon.



* Nite Owl II of ''Comicbook/{{Watchmen}}'' definitely qualifies for this. Since he decided he didn't want to be involved in a futile battle of good against evil for the rest of his life and retired, he's clearly the "worst" of the main characters.
** Even Rorschach held this view for a period of time. And considering his popularity with readers, his view of Nite Owl II probably contributed to the way a lot of fans saw him. Rather ironic considering how Moore intended the ''[[MisaimedFandom exact opposite]]'' effect.
** Parodied in ''WebVideo/ImAMarvelAndImADC'', where Dan and Cyclops discuss this trope.

to:

* Nite Owl II of ''Comicbook/{{Watchmen}}'' definitely qualifies for this. Since he decided he didn't want to be involved in a futile battle of good against evil for the rest of his life and retired, he's clearly the "worst" of the main characters.
**
characters. Even Rorschach held this view for a period of time. And considering his popularity with readers, his view of Nite Owl II probably contributed to the way a lot of fans saw him. Rather ironic considering how Moore intended the ''[[MisaimedFandom exact opposite]]'' effect.
**
effect. Parodied in ''WebVideo/ImAMarvelAndImADC'', where Dan and Cyclops discuss this trope.



[[folder:Film]]

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[[folder:Film]][[folder:Films -- Live-Action]]



* [[https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f2/ab/d5/f2abd5a88db975bb07408ba0c12cddf5.jpg This picture]] should tell you what a lot of fans think about [[TheForceAwakens Kylo Ren]].

to:

* %%Weblinks are not examples.
%%* ''Film/TheForceAwakens'':
[[https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f2/ab/d5/f2abd5a88db975bb07408ba0c12cddf5.jpg This picture]] should tell you what a lot of fans think about [[TheForceAwakens Kylo Ren]].Ren.



[[folder:Live Action TV]]

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[[folder:Live Action [[folder:Live-Action TV]]



* ''Series/{{Merlin|2008}}'': On the surface, Guinevere is essentially portrayed as a ShrinkingViolet, a stark contrast to Morgana as a SpiritedYoungLady. Morgana gets to do lots of cool things: [[ActionGirl sword-fight]], telekinetically throw people through the air and [[TyrantTakesTheHelm stand up to King Uther]]. However, this is a ''huge'' simplification of each woman's characterization and CharacterArc: namely that Morgana's [[SlowlySlippingIntoEvil fall into evil]] was marked by her ItsAllAboutMe attitude in which she ranks her own grievances and pain against the needs of others and begins a RoaringRampageOfRevenge against not just Uther, but ''everyone'', including innocent people. In contrast, Guinevere (who is also deeply wronged by Uther when he has her innocent father executed) rises above her inner turmoil and explicitly refuses to wallow in hate. Many fans seem to have ''completely'' missed the juxtapositioning of Guinevere's declaration that she would never seek vengeance against Uther because: "that would make me just like him" with the observations by ''several'' characters that Morgana is now no different from Uther. It also fails to take into account the fact that Guinevere's attempts at proactivity have a far higher success rate [[note]] (retrieving the morteus flower from the dungeon, arguing on behalf of the women in Ealdor for their right to defend their homes, discovering a vital clue that allows her and Merlin to outwit the Witchfinder, convincing the council to open the gates of Camelot and allow the refugees to seek shelter in the city, escaping Helios's men by submerging herself in the river)[[/note]]. Though Guinevere has played the DamselInDistress a few times, Morgana has been in similar situations just as often ([[DistressedDude as have all the male characters]]) and is extremely WeakWilled given the consistency [[HypnotizeThePrincess with which she is placed under enchantments]]. Guinevere, on the other hand, has the ''unprecedented'' move of removing an object of enchantment from her body of her own free will (and thus breaking the spell she was under).\\
\\

to:

* ''Series/{{Merlin|2008}}'': On the surface, Guinevere is essentially portrayed as a ShrinkingViolet, a stark contrast to Morgana as a SpiritedYoungLady. Morgana gets to do lots of cool things: [[ActionGirl sword-fight]], telekinetically throw people through the air and [[TyrantTakesTheHelm stand up to King Uther]]. However, this is a ''huge'' simplification of each woman's characterization and CharacterArc: namely that Morgana's [[SlowlySlippingIntoEvil fall into evil]] was marked by her ItsAllAboutMe attitude in which she ranks her own grievances and pain against the needs of others and begins a RoaringRampageOfRevenge against not just Uther, but ''everyone'', including innocent people. In contrast, Guinevere (who is also deeply wronged by Uther when he has her innocent father executed) rises above her inner turmoil and explicitly refuses to wallow in hate. Many fans seem to have ''completely'' missed the juxtapositioning of Guinevere's declaration that she would never seek vengeance against Uther because: "that would make me just like him" with the observations by ''several'' characters that Morgana is now no different from Uther. It also fails to take into account the fact that Guinevere's attempts at proactivity have a far higher success rate [[note]] (retrieving the morteus flower from the dungeon, arguing on behalf of the women in Ealdor for their right to defend their homes, discovering a vital clue that allows her and Merlin to outwit the Witchfinder, convincing the council to open the gates of Camelot and allow the refugees to seek shelter in the city, escaping Helios's men by submerging herself in the river)[[/note]]. Though Guinevere has played the DamselInDistress a few times, Morgana has been in similar situations just as often ([[DistressedDude as have all the male characters]]) and is extremely WeakWilled given the consistency [[HypnotizeThePrincess with which she is placed under enchantments]]. Guinevere, on the other hand, has the ''unprecedented'' move of removing an object of enchantment from her body of her own free will (and thus breaking the spell she was under).\\
\\
\\\



[[folder:Professional Wrestling]]

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[[folder:Professional [[folder:Pro Wrestling]]



* Games in general
** [[OurElvesAreBetter Elves]] in general tend to get this. Who cares if they can put an arrow through your eye from a mile away? They're far too [[{{Elfeminate}} girly]] to pose a [[KilledMidSentence serious- *thwuck* *thump*]]
*** It really doesn't help that elves in all media have a tendency to be ''infuriatingly'' arrogant. There's a reason ScrewYouElves is it's own trope.
** In any tabletop RPG, it's not uncommon for certain character builds to be considered badass or overly strong. In some cases this is simply because conventional player wisdom expects them to be (such being the case with many late-game Wizard builds in 3rd edition ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'') or because the setting declares them to be so (Street Samurai in ''TabletopGame/{{Shadowrun}}'', Juicers in ''TabletopGame/{{Rifts}}''). However, every gamemaster runs a game their own way and a character that is theoretically badass on paper may turn out to be useless because the challenges the party faces aren't in their area of expertise.
* ''Shadowrun'': A street samurai is a cyberwared-rocking, face-destroying nightmare of a combat monster… until the party realizes stealth, ingenuity and kill-free missions work out better. The end result is a screwed-out player rocking back and forth in his/her seat, looking utterly useless.

to:

* Games in general
** [[OurElvesAreBetter Elves]] in general tend to get this. Who cares if they can put an arrow through your eye from a mile away? They're far too [[{{Elfeminate}} girly]] to pose a [[KilledMidSentence serious- *thwuck* *thump*]]
*** It really doesn't help that elves in all media have a tendency to be ''infuriatingly'' arrogant. There's a reason ScrewYouElves is it's own trope.
**
In any tabletop RPG, it's not uncommon for certain character builds to be considered badass or overly strong. In some cases this is simply because conventional player wisdom expects them to be (such being the case with many late-game Wizard builds in 3rd edition ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'') or because the setting declares them to be so (Street Samurai in ''TabletopGame/{{Shadowrun}}'', Juicers in ''TabletopGame/{{Rifts}}''). However, every gamemaster runs a game their own way and a character that is theoretically badass on paper may turn out to be useless because the challenges the party faces aren't in their area of expertise.
* ''Shadowrun'': ''TabletopGame/{{Shadowrun}}'': A street samurai is a cyberwared-rocking, face-destroying nightmare of a combat monster… monster... until the party realizes stealth, ingenuity and kill-free missions work out better. The end result is a screwed-out player rocking back and forth in his/her seat, looking utterly useless.



* ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'': The Tau and the Craftworld Eldar get a lot of stick from the fandom for not being as [[RatedMForManly overtly manly]] as the other factions, although they are no less awesome. It should tell you something that the biggest factions in terms of sales are the Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Imperial Guard and Orks. In words, all armies where everyone is bulging with muscle and has "run at the enemy shouting and brandishing an oversized and rusty melee weapon" as their main battle strategy. The Dark Eldar ever so occasionally get this treatment as well, although they avoid the worst of it by being WickedCultured and [[TheUnfavourite having only about twenty people in the world play as them]].

to:

* ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'': ''TabletopGame/Warhammer40000'': The Tau and the Craftworld Eldar get a lot of stick from the fandom for not being as [[RatedMForManly overtly manly]] as the other factions, although they are no less awesome. It should tell you something that the biggest factions in terms of sales are the Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Imperial Guard and Orks. In words, all armies where everyone is bulging with muscle and has "run at the enemy shouting and brandishing an oversized and rusty melee weapon" as their main battle strategy. The Dark Eldar ever so occasionally get this treatment as well, although they avoid the worst of it by being WickedCultured and [[TheUnfavourite having only about twenty people in the world play as them]].



[[folder:TV Tropes]]
* This is part of the reason that TheChick is looked down upon, because she tends to be a non-action, non-badass. And {{Chickification}} is ''immediately'' labeled to an ActionGirl [[RealWomenDontWearDresses who shows any "female" emotion]].
* WhatKindOfLamePowerIsHeartAnyway exists, in part, because of this attitude. HeartIsAnAwesomePower exists because it is a counterpoint to this attitude.
[[/folder]]



[[folder:Webcomics]]

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[[folder:Webcomics]][[folder:Web Animation]]
* An in-universe example: in Season 10 of ''Machinima/RedVsBlue'', Church claims that Washington has gone from being a badass Freelancer who could fight toe-to-toe with Tex to [[spoiler:Carolina]]'s whipping boy - yet he is still a skilled fighter and has in fact [[spoiler:turned the Blues into a much more effective fighting force]]. The BadassDecay is relative when compared to [[spoiler:[[BrokenAce Carolina]]]]. Then it gets completely revoked when he [[spoiler:puts a gun to Carolina's head when she threatens Tucker and shoots her an IronicEcho before walking out on her]].
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Web Comics]]



* An in-universe example: in Season 10 of ''Machinima/RedVsBlue'', Church claims that Washington has gone from being a badass Freelancer who could fight toe-to-toe with Tex to [[spoiler:Carolina]]'s whipping boy - yet he is still a skilled fighter and has in fact [[spoiler:turned the Blues into a much more effective fighting force]]. The BadassDecay is relative when compared to [[spoiler:[[BrokenAce Carolina]]]]. Then it gets completely revoked when he [[spoiler:puts a gun to Carolina's head when she threatens Tucker and shoots her an IronicEcho before walking out on her]].

to:

* An in-universe example: in Season 10 Wiki/TVTropes:
** This is part
of ''Machinima/RedVsBlue'', Church claims the reason that Washington has gone from being TheChick is looked down upon, because she tends to be a badass Freelancer non-action, non-badass. And {{Chickification}} is ''immediately'' labeled to an ActionGirl [[RealWomenDontWearDresses who could fight toe-to-toe with Tex shows any "female" emotion]].
** WhatKindOfLamePowerIsHeartAnyway exists, in part, because of this attitude. HeartIsAnAwesomePower exists because it is a counterpoint
to [[spoiler:Carolina]]'s whipping boy - yet he is still a skilled fighter and has in fact [[spoiler:turned the Blues into a much more effective fighting force]]. The BadassDecay is relative when compared to [[spoiler:[[BrokenAce Carolina]]]]. Then it gets completely revoked when he [[spoiler:puts a gun to Carolina's head when she threatens Tucker and shoots her an IronicEcho before walking out on her]].this attitude.



* ''WesternAnimation/TheLegendOfKorra''

to:

* ''WesternAnimation/TheLegendOfKorra''''WesternAnimation/TheLegendOfKorra'':
19th Oct '16 3:26:41 PM wedward
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* [[https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f2/ab/d5/f2abd5a88db975bb07408ba0c12cddf5.jpg this picture]] should tell you what a lot of fans think about [[TheForceAwakens Kylo Ren]].

to:

* [[https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f2/ab/d5/f2abd5a88db975bb07408ba0c12cddf5.jpg this This picture]] should tell you what a lot of fans think about [[TheForceAwakens Kylo Ren]].
19th Oct '16 3:26:07 PM wedward
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Added DiffLines:

* [[https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f2/ab/d5/f2abd5a88db975bb07408ba0c12cddf5.jpg this picture]] should tell you what a lot of fans think about [[TheForceAwakens Kylo Ren]].
18th Oct '16 7:32:58 PM KrspaceT
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Added DiffLines:

* The Russian Army in World War 1 is often seen as being weak and nothing but a German Punching Bag. Apparently the roughly 6 ''million'' casualties they took down with them died of laughing at their weakness then.
18th Oct '16 7:28:12 PM KrspaceT
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** Max? Try Ash? Apparently making it far into tournaments filled with the best of the best is 'weak', and 'pathetic' to most fans.

to:

** Max? Try Ash? ''Ash''? Apparently making it far into tournaments filled with the best of the best is 'weak', and 'pathetic' to most fans.
18th Oct '16 7:27:48 PM KrspaceT
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Added DiffLines:

** Max? Try Ash? Apparently making it far into tournaments filled with the best of the best is 'weak', and 'pathetic' to most fans.
1st Oct '16 2:34:00 PM ANTMuddle
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** Natalie White was considered this on ''Series/{{Survivor}} Samoa'', particularly by her aggressive competitors who were with her in the last tribal council. Then jury-member Erik stands up and delivers a speech in which he points out that since she's still in the game, she must be doing ''something'' right, and furthermore, did it in a way that didn't sacrifice her integrity. Meanwhile, Mick claimed to deserve votes (Natalie didn't), while Russell Hantz just sociopathically bullied his way through the game and finished by boasting "These two suck - Aren't I awesome?" to the jury. This speech may well have contributed to her 7-2-0 win.
** Sandra Diaz-Twine in ''Heroes vs. Villains'' had this by the fans as well as Russell Hantz himself. Russell claims that Sandra being able to win ''twice'' is somehow proof that the game's rules are flawed, because she would be ''terrible'' at physical challenges and have ''zero'' personal immunities under her belt, yet was good enough with people to know what was up, and was able to play the lesser of three evils. ("I hate Russell, too.") Meanwhile, Parvati already had a pretty loyal fan base and played a game more people approved of, as opposed to Sandra who [[XanatosSpeedChess went with the flow]]. Mario Lanza (a foremost columnist on Survivor) pointed on his [[http://funny115.com/v2/2.htm "The Fall of Russell Hantz entry]] on his The Funny 115 that she and Russell taunted the heroes with J.T.'s letter. Some Sandra supporters even pointed out that Sandra ''had'' more allies in the jury (including the entire Heroes tribe) and Russell should have considered that -- Parvati ''did'' realize this and [[CassandraTruth tried to get Russell to see this too]], but he kept on insisting that Sandra had no chance of winning... just like he insisted that Natalie had no chance of winning in ''Samoa''. Cue the HumiliationConga.

to:

** Natalie White was considered this on ''Series/{{Survivor}} Samoa'', particularly by her aggressive competitors who were with her in the last tribal council. Then jury-member Erik stands up and delivers a speech in which he points out that since she's still in the game, she must be doing ''something'' right, and furthermore, did it in a way that didn't sacrifice her integrity. Meanwhile, Mick claimed to deserve votes (Natalie didn't), while Russell Hantz just sociopathically bullied his way through the game and finished by boasting "These two suck - Aren't I awesome?" to the jury. This speech may well have contributed to her 7-2-0 win. \n [[http://funny115.com/v2/50.htm Also see the first "Fall of Russell Hantz" entry.]]
** Sandra Diaz-Twine in ''Heroes vs. Villains'' had this by the fans as well as Russell Hantz himself. Russell claims that Sandra being able to win ''twice'' is somehow proof that the game's rules are flawed, because she would be ''terrible'' at physical challenges and have ''zero'' personal immunities under her belt, yet was good enough with people to know what was up, and was able to play the lesser of three evils. ("I hate Russell, too.") Meanwhile, Parvati already had a pretty loyal fan base and played a game more people approved of, as opposed to Sandra who [[XanatosSpeedChess went with the flow]]. Mario Lanza (a foremost columnist on Survivor) pointed on his [[http://funny115.com/v2/2.htm second "The Fall of Russell Hantz Hantz" entry]] on his The Funny 115 that she and Russell taunted the heroes with J.T.'s letter. Some Sandra supporters even pointed out that Sandra ''had'' more allies in the jury (including the entire Heroes tribe) and Russell should have considered that -- Parvati ''did'' realize this and [[CassandraTruth tried to get Russell to see this too]], but he kept on insisting that Sandra had no chance of winning... just like he insisted that Natalie had no chance of winning in ''Samoa''. Cue the HumiliationConga.
22nd Sep '16 4:58:52 AM Morgenthaler
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The idea of a fandom and/or characters in a series disliking someone simply for not living up to the level of {{Badass}}ery that would be expected of the series or genre. Even more so if a little Angst is involved: expect that someone to be called out as {{wangst}}y.

to:

The idea of a fandom and/or characters in a series disliking someone simply for not living up to the level of {{Badass}}ery badassery that would be expected of the series or genre. Even more so if a little Angst is involved: expect that someone to be called out as {{wangst}}y.



This trope is possibly a consequence of IJustWantToBeBadass. The WishFulfillment aspect of fiction generally makes people want to see characters they identify with do things that are cool/heroic/manly (i.e. {{Badass}}), which allows them to experience Badassery via a proxy of themselves. When the audience is denied their WishFulfillment, they may dislike it and displace that dislike onto a character. Generally, any character that isn't a nail chewing badass (and/or is capable of showing... *eugh* ''emotion'') will be instantly dismissed as a [[TheScrappy Scrappy]] or CreatorsPet.

to:

This trope is possibly a consequence of IJustWantToBeBadass. The WishFulfillment aspect of fiction generally makes people want to see characters they identify with do things that are cool/heroic/manly (i.e. {{Badass}}), cool/heroic/manly, which allows them to experience Badassery badassery via a proxy of themselves. When the audience is denied their WishFulfillment, they may dislike it and displace that dislike onto a character. Generally, any character that isn't a nail chewing badass (and/or is capable of showing... *eugh* ''emotion'') will be instantly dismissed as a [[TheScrappy Scrappy]] or CreatorsPet.



* [[UnluckyEveryDude Ganta]] from ''Manga/DeadmanWonderland'' is often lamented to be a useless, cowardly pansy, with many fans much preferring [[EnsembleDarkHorse Crow]] (who is often declared the most {{Badass}} character in that series). They seem to be ignoring the fact that Ganta is only 14 (compared to Crow, who is obviously much older than him) and was just a normal student who never really got into fights, and who is also ''new'' to Deadman Wonderland.

to:

* [[UnluckyEveryDude Ganta]] from ''Manga/DeadmanWonderland'' is often lamented to be a useless, cowardly pansy, with many fans much preferring [[EnsembleDarkHorse Crow]] (who is often declared the most {{Badass}} badass character in that series). They seem to be ignoring the fact that Ganta is only 14 (compared to Crow, who is obviously much older than him) and was just a normal student who never really got into fights, and who is also ''new'' to Deadman Wonderland.



* ''Manga/{{Naruto}}'' : Many parts of the FanDumb have this attitude as applied to ''any'' character: any time a character appears to be something less than a {{Badass}} who accomplishes everything without any effort whatsoever, you have hordes of people saying how they must suck as a character because they are "weak". In the rare occasions where they don't, they'll bitch that the writer sucks for not making them "badass enough" or turning them into {{Mary Sue}}s.

to:

* ''Manga/{{Naruto}}'' : Many parts of the FanDumb have this attitude as applied to ''any'' character: any time a character appears to be something less than a {{Badass}} badass who accomplishes everything without any effort whatsoever, you have hordes of people saying how they must suck as a character because they are "weak". In the rare occasions where they don't, they'll bitch that the writer sucks for not making them "badass enough" or turning them into {{Mary Sue}}s.



** Due to the popularity of Badass Normals (Franchise/{{Batman}} in particular) this can also be a inversion. Now it's the superpowered ones who are seen as less {{Badass}} because they have superpowers, yet the Badass Normals are written as being able to take on the same threats as they do.

to:

** Due to the popularity of Badass Normals (Franchise/{{Batman}} in particular) this can also be a inversion. Now it's the superpowered ones who are seen as less {{Badass}} badass because they have superpowers, yet the Badass Normals are written as being able to take on the same threats as they do.



* ''Film/DeathProof'': The initial group of women that run into Stuntman Mike are treated as annoying, [[DevelopingDoomedCharacters disposable types]] while the second group are the heroines we cheer for. No matter that the second group prove themselves to be irresponsible jackasses (such as abandoning one of their own to a seriously creepy possible rapist simply so they could whiz around in a car for a few hours); since they are indisputably {{Badass}}, we like them more than the theoretically more sympathetic (but non-{{Badass}}) first group.

to:

* ''Film/DeathProof'': The initial group of women that run into Stuntman Mike are treated as annoying, [[DevelopingDoomedCharacters disposable types]] while the second group are the heroines we cheer for. No matter that the second group prove themselves to be irresponsible jackasses (such as abandoning one of their own to a seriously creepy possible rapist simply so they could whiz around in a car for a few hours); since they are indisputably {{Badass}}, badass, we like them more than the theoretically more sympathetic (but non-{{Badass}}) non-badass) first group.



* ''Literature/TheLordOfTheRings'': This may contribute to Frodo's poor reputation. While most of the characters including the other hobbits get {{Badass}} moments, Frodo's progressive weakening while carrying the One Ring means that he is able to do less and less.

to:

* ''Literature/TheLordOfTheRings'': This may contribute to Frodo's poor reputation. While most of the characters including the other hobbits get {{Badass}} badass moments, Frodo's progressive weakening while carrying the One Ring means that he is able to do less and less.



* This is part of the reason that TheChick is looked down upon, because she tends to be a non-action, non-{{badass}}. And {{Chickification}} is ''immediately'' labeled to an ActionGirl [[RealWomenDontWearDresses who shows any "female" emotion]].

to:

* This is part of the reason that TheChick is looked down upon, because she tends to be a non-action, non-{{badass}}.non-badass. And {{Chickification}} is ''immediately'' labeled to an ActionGirl [[RealWomenDontWearDresses who shows any "female" emotion]].



* This is one of the reasons why the tropes {{Badass}} and {{Jerkass}} are often synonymous with each other despite having nothing to do with each other.



* ''Videogame/MegaManX'': The title character of the series gets this a lot. His viewpoint (except for in [[Videogame/MegaManX7 the seventh game]]) is that he'd rather not fight, but does because he feels he has to. Because he wishes he didn't have to go to war, he's usually portrayed as a pansy and/or gay (though the latter has more to do with the HoYay between him and Zero). Zero, by contrast, is a {{Badass}} killbot with a laser sword, who enjoys EpicBattleBoredom, and is thus ''much'' more popular. Fans also like to completely ignore the fact that once X has all his upgrades and armors, he's an unstoppable OneManArmy who is much more powerful than Zero. Not only that but both he and Zero have climatically fought each other ''to a tie'', Zero outright says X is the better Hunter, and a bad guy [[ColonyDrop killed millions]] so X would fight him all-out (and had no interest in fighting Zero). But no, still a pansy because he realizes that after 8 wars, more fighting doesn't solve anything. It's truly amazing how many people can dismiss him technically beating Zero in X5, while surrounded by a virus that weakens him and renders Zero {{Nigh Invulnerab|ility}}le, and only succumbs to its effects ''after'' beating the death machine into the ground.

to:

* ''Videogame/MegaManX'': The title character of the series gets this a lot. His viewpoint (except for in [[Videogame/MegaManX7 the seventh game]]) is that he'd rather not fight, but does because he feels he has to. Because he wishes he didn't have to go to war, he's usually portrayed as a pansy and/or gay (though the latter has more to do with the HoYay between him and Zero). Zero, by contrast, is a {{Badass}} badass killbot with a laser sword, who enjoys EpicBattleBoredom, and is thus ''much'' more popular. Fans also like to completely ignore the fact that once X has all his upgrades and armors, he's an unstoppable OneManArmy who is much more powerful than Zero. Not only that but both he and Zero have climatically fought each other ''to a tie'', Zero outright says X is the better Hunter, and a bad guy [[ColonyDrop killed millions]] so X would fight him all-out (and had no interest in fighting Zero). But no, still a pansy because he realizes that after 8 wars, more fighting doesn't solve anything. It's truly amazing how many people can dismiss him technically beating Zero in X5, while surrounded by a virus that weakens him and renders Zero {{Nigh Invulnerab|ility}}le, and only succumbs to its effects ''after'' beating the death machine into the ground.



* It seems that in ''VideoGame/BlazBlue'', the only way you could attain fan interest if that if you have Godlike, [[GameBreaker reality-breaking]] powers or can stand up to them, or for the fans of 'good morality', can go toe-to-toe with the two broken villains: Terumi and Relius (and always refusing them). These are probably why even Platinum the Trinity, who could be considered TheScrappy, might be escaping it a bit, because she's the host of Trinity Glassfile, one of the Six Heroes. This is why back in the old days, Jin Kisaragi was widely hated in favor of his more {{Badass}} and more 'morally straight' Hakumen (in spite of Hakumen being a KnightTemplar, apparently being a {{Badass}} means that everything you do is more righteous). This is also why fans enjoy morally questionable characters like Rachel and Kokonoe because they oppose Terumi and are some of the most powerful individuals in the verse. This is also why characters like Litchi and Arakune are largely ignored or derided even with their tragic story ongoing... solely because the former is OvershadowedByAwesome (in both muscles and brains, by Kokonoe) and ''dares'' become an UnwittingPawn for those villains and mopes around her personal problem instead of shoving them off and focusing on awesome things like world-saving, and the other one... seems to never get past of being a CannonFodder type {{Mook|s}} in the eyes of many. This is also why Noel is always considered a whiny crybaby, because of her acts in the earlier games, and only after Chronophantasma that she gains confidence that fans started looking up to her more, though not everyone (and eventually when she once again became central of the plot in ''Central Fiction'' as a... ''terrified MacGuffinGirl''... a portion of the fandom that warmed up on her turned cold on her AGAIN), and this is also why Makoto is praised like hell, because if anything, she tanks up everything Terumi threw to her, continues being a 'good guy' and wrecked his plans (even by accident) in her CS EX story. This whole thing is more prevalent in America, because [[AmericanKirbyIsHardcore badassery is worshipped like a God there.]]

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* It seems that in ''VideoGame/BlazBlue'', the only way you could attain fan interest if that if you have Godlike, [[GameBreaker reality-breaking]] powers or can stand up to them, or for the fans of 'good morality', can go toe-to-toe with the two broken villains: Terumi and Relius (and always refusing them). These are probably why even Platinum the Trinity, who could be considered TheScrappy, might be escaping it a bit, because she's the host of Trinity Glassfile, one of the Six Heroes. This is why back in the old days, Jin Kisaragi was widely hated in favor of his more {{Badass}} badass and more 'morally straight' Hakumen (in spite of Hakumen being a KnightTemplar, apparently being a {{Badass}} badass means that everything you do is more righteous). This is also why fans enjoy morally questionable characters like Rachel and Kokonoe because they oppose Terumi and are some of the most powerful individuals in the verse. This is also why characters like Litchi and Arakune are largely ignored or derided even with their tragic story ongoing... solely because the former is OvershadowedByAwesome (in both muscles and brains, by Kokonoe) and ''dares'' become an UnwittingPawn for those villains and mopes around her personal problem instead of shoving them off and focusing on awesome things like world-saving, and the other one... seems to never get past of being a CannonFodder type {{Mook|s}} in the eyes of many. This is also why Noel is always considered a whiny crybaby, because of her acts in the earlier games, and only after Chronophantasma that she gains confidence that fans started looking up to her more, though not everyone (and eventually when she once again became central of the plot in ''Central Fiction'' as a... ''terrified MacGuffinGirl''... a portion of the fandom that warmed up on her turned cold on her AGAIN), and this is also why Makoto is praised like hell, because if anything, she tanks up everything Terumi threw to her, continues being a 'good guy' and wrecked his plans (even by accident) in her CS EX story. This whole thing is more prevalent in America, because [[AmericanKirbyIsHardcore badassery is worshipped like a God there.]]



* ''Webcomic/{{Great}}'': This trope is {{deconstructed|Trope}} in-universe. The main character, Lyle, [[TookALevelInBadass Takes A Level In Badass]] after realizing that his boring and mundane life sucks, and ultimately becomes a highly successful chef. The deconstruction comes in when his wife turns out to be a better chef than he, thus leading to [[SoLastSeason everybody else finding Lyle's food inedible]], and Lyle being unable to accept the fact that somebody is better than him. So he goes on a journey of self-discovery, and doesn't realize until the last arc that, even though he was very successful, he wasn't ''happy'', and only finds contentedness when he settles for just running a small noodle shop in the park, and living a normal life. The comic is [[SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped screaming to the reader]] that one does not need to be a {{Badass}} to live a fulfilling life.

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* ''Webcomic/{{Great}}'': This trope is {{deconstructed|Trope}} in-universe. The main character, Lyle, [[TookALevelInBadass Takes A Level In Badass]] after realizing that his boring and mundane life sucks, and ultimately becomes a highly successful chef. The deconstruction comes in when his wife turns out to be a better chef than he, thus leading to [[SoLastSeason everybody else finding Lyle's food inedible]], and Lyle being unable to accept the fact that somebody is better than him. So he goes on a journey of self-discovery, and doesn't realize until the last arc that, even though he was very successful, he wasn't ''happy'', and only finds contentedness when he settles for just running a small noodle shop in the park, and living a normal life. The comic is [[SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped screaming to the reader]] that one does not need to be a {{Badass}} badass to live a fulfilling life.



* An in-universe example: in Season 10 of ''Machinima/RedVsBlue'', Church claims that Washington has gone from being a {{Badass}} Freelancer who could fight toe-to-toe with Tex to [[spoiler:Carolina]]'s whipping boy - yet he is still a skilled fighter and has in fact [[spoiler:turned the Blues into a much more effective fighting force]]. The BadassDecay is relative when compared to [[spoiler:[[BrokenAce Carolina]]]]. Then it gets completely revoked when he [[spoiler:puts a gun to Carolina's head when she threatens Tucker and shoots her an IronicEcho before walking out on her]].

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* An in-universe example: in Season 10 of ''Machinima/RedVsBlue'', Church claims that Washington has gone from being a {{Badass}} badass Freelancer who could fight toe-to-toe with Tex to [[spoiler:Carolina]]'s whipping boy - yet he is still a skilled fighter and has in fact [[spoiler:turned the Blues into a much more effective fighting force]]. The BadassDecay is relative when compared to [[spoiler:[[BrokenAce Carolina]]]]. Then it gets completely revoked when he [[spoiler:puts a gun to Carolina's head when she threatens Tucker and shoots her an IronicEcho before walking out on her]].



* This mentality gave rise to the "Applejack is a background pony" meme within the ''WesternAnimation/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagic'' fandom, because she's the only one of the group not able to fly, use magic, or have Pinkie Pie's [[ToonPhysics borderline reality warping]] abilities. Needless to say, it's also something of a FandomBerserkButton because most fans will be quick to point out she's [[TheReliableOne pretty damned]] {{Badass}} [[CharlesAtlasSuperPower without them]].

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* This mentality gave rise to the "Applejack is a background pony" meme within the ''WesternAnimation/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagic'' fandom, because she's the only one of the group not able to fly, use magic, or have Pinkie Pie's [[ToonPhysics borderline reality warping]] abilities. Needless to say, it's also something of a FandomBerserkButton because most fans will be quick to point out she's [[TheReliableOne pretty damned]] {{Badass}} badass [[CharlesAtlasSuperPower without them]].
20th Sep '16 12:05:31 AM ChrisX
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* It seems that in ''VideoGame/BlazBlue'', the only way you could attain fan interest if that if you have Godlike, [[GameBreaker reality-breaking]] powers or can stand up to them, or for the fans of 'good morality', can go toe-to-toe with the two broken villains: Terumi and Relius (and always refusing them). These are probably why even Platinum the Trinity, who could be considered TheScrappy, might be escaping it a bit, because she's the host of Trinity Glassfile, one of the Six Heroes. This is why back in the old days, Jin Kisaragi was widely hated in favor of his more {{Badass}} and more 'morally straight' Hakumen (in spite of Hakumen being a KnightTemplar, apparently being a {{Badass}} means that everything you do is more righteous). This is also why fans enjoy morally questionable characters like Rachel and Kokonoe because they oppose Terumi and are some of the most powerful individuals in the verse. This is also why characters like Litchi and Arakune are largely ignored or derided even with their tragic story ongoing... solely because the former is OvershadowedByAwesome (in both muscles and brains, by Kokonoe) and ''dares'' become an UnwittingPawn for those villains and mopes around her personal problem instead of shoving them off and focusing on awesome things like world-saving, and the other one... seems to never get past of being a CannonFodder type {{Mook|s}} in the eyes of many. This is also why Noel is always considered a whiny crybaby, because of her acts in the earlier games, and only after Chronophantasma that she gains confidence that fans started looking up to her more, though not everyone, and this is also why Makoto is praised like hell, because if anything, she tanks up everything Terumi threw to her, continues being a 'good guy' and wrecked his plans (even by accident) in her CS EX story. This whole thing is more prevalent in America, because [[AmericanKirbyIsHardcore badassery is worshipped like a God there.]]

to:

* It seems that in ''VideoGame/BlazBlue'', the only way you could attain fan interest if that if you have Godlike, [[GameBreaker reality-breaking]] powers or can stand up to them, or for the fans of 'good morality', can go toe-to-toe with the two broken villains: Terumi and Relius (and always refusing them). These are probably why even Platinum the Trinity, who could be considered TheScrappy, might be escaping it a bit, because she's the host of Trinity Glassfile, one of the Six Heroes. This is why back in the old days, Jin Kisaragi was widely hated in favor of his more {{Badass}} and more 'morally straight' Hakumen (in spite of Hakumen being a KnightTemplar, apparently being a {{Badass}} means that everything you do is more righteous). This is also why fans enjoy morally questionable characters like Rachel and Kokonoe because they oppose Terumi and are some of the most powerful individuals in the verse. This is also why characters like Litchi and Arakune are largely ignored or derided even with their tragic story ongoing... solely because the former is OvershadowedByAwesome (in both muscles and brains, by Kokonoe) and ''dares'' become an UnwittingPawn for those villains and mopes around her personal problem instead of shoving them off and focusing on awesome things like world-saving, and the other one... seems to never get past of being a CannonFodder type {{Mook|s}} in the eyes of many. This is also why Noel is always considered a whiny crybaby, because of her acts in the earlier games, and only after Chronophantasma that she gains confidence that fans started looking up to her more, though not everyone, everyone (and eventually when she once again became central of the plot in ''Central Fiction'' as a... ''terrified MacGuffinGirl''... a portion of the fandom that warmed up on her turned cold on her AGAIN), and this is also why Makoto is praised like hell, because if anything, she tanks up everything Terumi threw to her, continues being a 'good guy' and wrecked his plans (even by accident) in her CS EX story. This whole thing is more prevalent in America, because [[AmericanKirbyIsHardcore badassery is worshipped like a God there.]]
23rd Aug '16 4:03:36 PM merotoker
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** Anti-Miaka Fans got worse when ''Manga/FushigiYuugiGenbuKaiden'' came out and gave us [[ActionGirl Takiko]]. She's more action-oriented, actively tries to reach out to the warriors who all have their share of baggage, often suffering physical injuries to help other people and knows how to save herself out of situations. A big problem in comparing the two in terms of Badass Protagonists is the fact that Takiko lives in TheRoaringTwenties of ImperialJapan and Miaka comes from TheNineties, with ''a lot'' of cultural and socially established norms having changed since.

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** Anti-Miaka Fans got worse when ''Manga/FushigiYuugiGenbuKaiden'' came out and gave us [[ActionGirl Takiko]]. She's more action-oriented, actively tries to reach out to the warriors who all have their share of baggage, often suffering physical injuries to help other people and knows how to save herself out of situations. A big problem in comparing the two in terms of Badass Protagonists is the fact that Takiko lives in TheRoaringTwenties of ImperialJapan UsefulNotes/ImperialJapan and Miaka comes from TheNineties, with ''a lot'' of cultural and socially established norms having changed since.



** Many of Kamina's fanboys (which is about 90 percent of the people that watched the show), refuse to acknowledge Simon as the main character, simply because, according to them, he's not as badass as Kamina... despite the fact that the show made it clear that Simon far surpassed Kamina by the end of the show, and without Simon's help, Kamina wouldn't have made it as far as he did. In the [[spoiler:LotusEaterMachine, ''Kamina himself'' admits that Simon has surpassed him.]] MisaimedFandom at its finest, ladies and gentlemen.

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** Many of Kamina's fanboys (which is about 90 percent of the people that watched the show), refuse to acknowledge Simon as the main character, simply because, according to them, he's not as badass as Kamina... despite the fact that the show made it clear that Simon far surpassed Kamina by the end of the show, and without Simon's help, Kamina wouldn't have made it as far as he did. In the [[spoiler:LotusEaterMachine, ''Kamina himself'' admits that Simon has surpassed him.]] him]]. MisaimedFandom at its finest, ladies and gentlemen.



* ''Anime/PuellaMagiMadokaMagica'' : Madoka Kaname is [[TheScrappy condemned by the fanbase]] for being [[{{Wangst}} emotionally crushed]] by all that happens to her at the start. These fans focus on Madoka's justified grief at the situation without taking into account that [[spoiler: Madoka is a firmly proactive protagonist, saving people from unwittingly killing themselves at the hands of a witch, singlehandedly trying to stop Sayaka from fighting, and trying to convince Homura to team up with Sayaka for her benefit; all of this meant to establish that trying one's best to do what's right doesn't always result in a happy ending.]] The ending makes it a DefiedTrope, as she [[RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap rescues herself from the scrappy heap]] ''without'' becoming a badass. [[spoiler:She essentially saves everyone with ThePowerOfLove, by {{Rules Lawyer}}ing herself into goddessdom.]]

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* ''Anime/PuellaMagiMadokaMagica'' : Madoka Kaname is [[TheScrappy condemned by the fanbase]] for being [[{{Wangst}} emotionally crushed]] by all that happens to her at the start. These fans focus on Madoka's justified grief at the situation without taking into account that [[spoiler: Madoka is a firmly proactive protagonist, saving people from unwittingly killing themselves at the hands of a witch, singlehandedly trying to stop Sayaka from fighting, and trying to convince Homura to team up with Sayaka for her benefit; all of this meant to establish that trying one's best to do what's right doesn't always result in a happy ending.]] ending]]. The ending makes it a DefiedTrope, as she [[RescuedFromTheScrappyHeap rescues herself from the scrappy heap]] ''without'' becoming a badass. [[spoiler:She essentially saves everyone with ThePowerOfLove, by {{Rules Lawyer}}ing herself into goddessdom.]]



* A BadassNormal hero will sometimes get heat for being 'normal' and not super powered. Yes, that includes Franchise/{{Batman}} (though obviously, this is so rare it's hardly worth mentioning). As there are many superheroes to whom normal problems would be boringly easy, they need threats that will challenge them, but this leaves the badass normals useless in these situations: If they're only human, than it would be ridiculous for them to deal with the same level of threats the other does regularly. In a shared universe, the normal guy will look pathetic in comparison: Superman can deal with planets colliding, while Batman can (just barely) deal with two trains colliding by himself. While they can be compensated in team-ups by the 'normal' guy doing something more flashy (such as performing some insanely cool looking martial arts moves to fight a group of enemies) while the super does something more boring looking (like just a simple backhand to all three), usually there will be a massive power slant, resulting in team-ups being used to deal with middle ground threats at most while SupermanStaysOutOfGotham. Because of this, the BadassNormal will have a certain stigma to deal with: They'll have to really prove they're a tough badass, who can deal with the situation head on, or else they'll be regarded as pathetic. For example:

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* A BadassNormal hero will sometimes get heat for being 'normal' and not super powered. Yes, that includes Franchise/{{Batman}} (though obviously, this is so rare it's hardly worth mentioning). As there are many superheroes to whom normal problems would be boringly easy, they need threats that will challenge them, but this leaves the badass normals useless in these situations: If they're only human, than it would be ridiculous for them to deal with the same level of threats the other does regularly. In a shared universe, the normal guy will look pathetic in comparison: Superman Franchise/{{Superman}} can deal with planets colliding, while Batman can (just barely) deal with two trains colliding by himself. While they can be compensated in team-ups by the 'normal' guy doing something more flashy (such as performing some insanely cool looking martial arts moves to fight a group of enemies) while the super does something more boring looking (like just a simple backhand to all three), usually there will be a massive power slant, resulting in team-ups being used to deal with middle ground threats at most while SupermanStaysOutOfGotham. Because of this, the BadassNormal will have a certain stigma to deal with: They'll have to really prove they're a tough badass, who can deal with the situation head on, or else they'll be regarded as pathetic. For example:



* The Bat Family, Batman's partners, Robins, sidekicks, and mentees are all hit with this trope. While Batman has the same stigma, he's still seen as an incredible badass. So, his sidekicks, who unfortunately are limited in how many levels they can rise to or risk overshadowing him, tend to appear this (Dick Grayson was the poster child of DistressedDude during UsefulNotes/{{the Silver Age|OfComicBooks}}). With exception of Cassandra Cain, they're occasionally hit with this by someone, the worst being Stephanie Brown. While each member has at least one skill they excel at (Dick's leadership and acrobatics, Tim's detective skills, Babs' intelligence, Jason's homicidal violence, etc) Steph is a realistic portrayal of a Badass Normal: She's got an average intellect and reasonable training and skills in fighting and athletics, she lacks PhotographicMemory and TrainingFromHell the others possess. So, while she is as badass, if not more so, than many real life people or action heroes, she's limited in what she could reasonably achieve. To this day there's many a HateDumb that will decry her as 'weak', 'pathetic', 'stupid', and call her 'incompetent' for not having {{Charles Atlas Superpower}}s and being ThePollyanna.

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* The Bat Family, Batman's partners, Robins, sidekicks, and mentees are all hit with this trope. While Batman has the same stigma, he's still seen as an incredible badass. So, his sidekicks, who unfortunately are limited in how many levels they can rise to or risk overshadowing him, tend to appear this (Dick Grayson was the poster child of DistressedDude during UsefulNotes/{{the Silver Age|OfComicBooks}}). With the exception of [[ComicBook/BatGirl2000 Cassandra Cain, Cain]], they're occasionally hit with this by someone, the worst being Stephanie Brown. While each member has at least one skill they excel at (Dick's leadership and acrobatics, Tim's detective skills, Babs' intelligence, Jason's homicidal violence, etc) Steph is a realistic portrayal of a Badass Normal: She's got an average intellect and reasonable training and skills in fighting and athletics, she lacks PhotographicMemory and TrainingFromHell the others possess. So, while she is as badass, if not more so, than many real life people or action heroes, she's limited in what she could reasonably achieve. To this day there's many a HateDumb that will decry her as 'weak', 'pathetic', 'stupid', and call her 'incompetent' for not having {{Charles Atlas Superpower}}s and being ThePollyanna.



** Aqualad/Tempest took heat from some fans ''and'' DC editorial for having "lame" powers (similar opinions exist about his mentor, Aquaman), and for coming off weaker, less "manly", and less proactive than the other male Titans. Even after he got an upgrade in power, his role gradually diminished and he was killed off. Phil Jimenez (who wrote the Tempest mini-series) has stated that the current editorial team wasn't too fond of the character.

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** Aqualad/Tempest took heat from some fans ''and'' DC editorial for having "lame" powers (similar opinions exist about his mentor, Aquaman), ComicBook/{{Aquaman}}), and for coming off weaker, less "manly", and less proactive than the other male Titans. Even after he got an upgrade in power, his role gradually diminished and he was killed off. Phil Jimenez (who wrote the Tempest mini-series) has stated that the current editorial team wasn't too fond of the character.



** Jericho, for being too sensitive, a "wuss", not being much of an action guy, and having a flamboyant costume and weird hair in his early days. The showrunners of the animated series had stated they felt the need to try to make him look more badass, as they considered him to be pathetic in the comics.

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** Jericho, for being too sensitive, a "wuss", not being much of an action guy, and having a flamboyant costume and weird hair in his early days. The showrunners of [[WesternAnimation/TeenTitans the animated series series]] had stated they felt the need to try to make him look more badass, as they considered him to be pathetic in the comics.



* Take any of Creator/StevenSeagal's later movies; the most common complaint will be that he hardly does any real fighting anymore since he's gotten older and put on weight. Though this is perhaps what inevitably happens when you build your entire early film career on subpar movies whose central appeal is you being a total badass. The fact the he is often replaced with a double has helped this preception.

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* Take any of Creator/StevenSeagal's later movies; the most common complaint will be that he hardly does any real fighting anymore since he's gotten older and put on weight. Though this is perhaps what inevitably happens when you build your entire early film career on subpar movies whose central appeal is you being a total badass. The fact the he is often replaced with a double has helped this preception.perception.



** Because of the mystery surrounding the character and his agelessness, many fans built up Richard Alpert as the answer to the entire show, the most powerful character, and, among some fans, a literal MemeticBadass and the show's version of Chuck Norris. Fans on GameFAQs and Lostpedia even developed a joke episode dealing with the idea that he is a superhuman badass. So when the end of season 5 revealed Richard to be an ordinary person with realistic flaws and personality (as well as being an UnwittingPawn), the fandom reacted violently and Richard suddenly became unpopular.

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** Because of the mystery surrounding the character and his agelessness, many fans built up Richard Alpert as the answer to the entire show, the most powerful character, and, among some fans, a literal MemeticBadass and the show's version of Chuck Norris. Fans on GameFAQs Website/GameFAQs and Lostpedia even developed a joke episode dealing with the idea that he is a superhuman badass. So when the end of season 5 revealed Richard to be an ordinary person with realistic flaws and personality (as well as being an UnwittingPawn), the fandom reacted violently and Richard suddenly became unpopular.



* ''Series/{{Merlin}}'' : On the surface, Guinevere is essentially portrayed as a ShrinkingViolet, a stark contrast to Morgana as a SpiritedYoungLady. Morgana gets to do lots of cool things: [[ActionGirl sword-fight]], telekenetically throw people through the air and [[TyrantTakesTheHelm stand up to King Uther]]. However, this is a ''huge'' simplification of each woman's characterization and CharacterArc: namely that Morgana's [[SlowlySlippingIntoEvil fall into evil]] was marked by her ItsAllAboutMe attitude in which she ranks her own grievances and pain against the needs of others and begins a RoaringRampageOfRevenge against not just Uther, but ''everyone'', including innocent people. In contrast, Guinevere (who is also deeply wronged by Uther when he has her innocent father executed) rises above her inner turmoil and explicitly refuses wallow in hate. Many fans seem to have ''completely'' missed the juxtapositioning of Guinevere's declaration that she would never seek vengeance against Uther because: "that would make me just like him" with the observations by ''several'' characters that Morgana is now no different from Uther. It also fails to take into account the fact that Guinevere's attempts at proactivity have a far higher success rate [[note]] (retrieving the morteus flower from the dungeon, arguing on behalf of the women in Ealdor for their right to defend their homes, discovering a vital clue that allows her and Merlin to outwit the Witchfinder, convincing the council to open the gates of Camelot and allow the refugees to seek shelter in the city, escaping Helios's men by submerging herself in the river)[[/note]]. Though Guinevere has played the DamselInDistress a few times, Morgana has been in similar situations just as often ([[DistressedDude as have all the male characters]]) and is extremely WeakWilled given the consistency [[HypnotizeThePrincess with which she is placed under enchantments]]. Guinevere, on the other hand, has the ''unprecedented'' move of removing an object of enchantment from her body of her own free will (and thus breaking the spell she was under).
** The reactions to ''Lancelot and Guinevere'' are a perfect example of this trope. Most of the complaints about the episode state it as Guinevere's biggest DamselInDistress moment, and that she needed three attempts by Morgana, Lancelot, and then Arthur and Merlin to rescue her due to her extreme incompetence. 1) It was Guinevere's YouShallNotPass moment that saved Morgana, not the other way around, 2) In Lancelot's rescue, we never see her get captured, so we don't know if she tripped or ran into a group of bandits, and 3) All of that would have been for nothing had Gwen not kept up a Morgana impression throughout the duration of her imprisonment, which kept her alive until help could come. Uther even mentions that it would take a small army to beat the number of bandits in the fortress she was held in, so unless you're expecting her to spontaneously turn into [[{{Series/Firefly}} River Tam]], there was no way she could have escaped without help.

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* ''Series/{{Merlin}}'' : ''Series/{{Merlin|2008}}'': On the surface, Guinevere is essentially portrayed as a ShrinkingViolet, a stark contrast to Morgana as a SpiritedYoungLady. Morgana gets to do lots of cool things: [[ActionGirl sword-fight]], telekenetically telekinetically throw people through the air and [[TyrantTakesTheHelm stand up to King Uther]]. However, this is a ''huge'' simplification of each woman's characterization and CharacterArc: namely that Morgana's [[SlowlySlippingIntoEvil fall into evil]] was marked by her ItsAllAboutMe attitude in which she ranks her own grievances and pain against the needs of others and begins a RoaringRampageOfRevenge against not just Uther, but ''everyone'', including innocent people. In contrast, Guinevere (who is also deeply wronged by Uther when he has her innocent father executed) rises above her inner turmoil and explicitly refuses to wallow in hate. Many fans seem to have ''completely'' missed the juxtapositioning of Guinevere's declaration that she would never seek vengeance against Uther because: "that would make me just like him" with the observations by ''several'' characters that Morgana is now no different from Uther. It also fails to take into account the fact that Guinevere's attempts at proactivity have a far higher success rate [[note]] (retrieving the morteus flower from the dungeon, arguing on behalf of the women in Ealdor for their right to defend their homes, discovering a vital clue that allows her and Merlin to outwit the Witchfinder, convincing the council to open the gates of Camelot and allow the refugees to seek shelter in the city, escaping Helios's men by submerging herself in the river)[[/note]]. Though Guinevere has played the DamselInDistress a few times, Morgana has been in similar situations just as often ([[DistressedDude as have all the male characters]]) and is extremely WeakWilled given the consistency [[HypnotizeThePrincess with which she is placed under enchantments]]. Guinevere, on the other hand, has the ''unprecedented'' move of removing an object of enchantment from her body of her own free will (and thus breaking the spell she was under).
**
under).\\
\\
The reactions to ''Lancelot "[[Recap/MerlinS02E04LancelotAndGuinevere Lancelot and Guinevere'' Guinevere]]" are a perfect example of this trope. Most of the complaints about the episode state it as Guinevere's biggest DamselInDistress moment, and that she needed three attempts by Morgana, Lancelot, and then Arthur and Merlin to rescue her due to her extreme incompetence. 1) It was Guinevere's YouShallNotPass moment that saved Morgana, not the other way around, 2) In Lancelot's rescue, we never see her get captured, so we don't know if she tripped or ran into a group of bandits, and 3) All of that would have been for nothing had Gwen not kept up a Morgana impression throughout the duration of her imprisonment, which kept her alive until help could come. Uther even mentions that it would take a small army to beat the number of bandits in the fortress she was held in, so unless you're expecting her to spontaneously turn into [[{{Series/Firefly}} River Tam]], there was no way she could have escaped without help.



* Out-of-universe example: After {{Lita}} and TrishStratus kick-started the {{WWE}} Divas' division as we know it today, many of the other Divas were disdained for not quite measuring up to the in-ring standards of the first two, even if they trained at a level roughly equal to Lita and Trish - and even though when most of these Divas (''including'' Lita and Trish) started their careers in the late 1990s, [[FairForItsDay many fans considered it impressive when women wrestled]] ''[[FairForItsDay at all]]''.

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* Out-of-universe example: After {{Lita}} Wrestling/{{Lita}} and TrishStratus Wrestling/TrishStratus kick-started the {{WWE}} Wrestling/{{WWE}} Divas' division as we know it today, many of the other Divas were disdained for not quite measuring up to the in-ring standards of the first two, even if they trained at a level roughly equal to Lita and Trish - and even though when most of these Divas (''including'' Lita and Trish) started their careers in the late 1990s, [[FairForItsDay many fans considered it impressive when women wrestled]] ''[[FairForItsDay at all]]''.



* ''Franchise/KingdomHearts'': Sora, The Protagonist is goofy, naive, lacks angst ''and'' ambition, and is incredibly gentle and empathic. His attitude screams the opposite of badassery. He is also quite possibly the second most powerful individual in the universe, beaten out by a reality warping PhysicalGod. Without training or preparation, he has accomplished more than three of his (formally trained) predecessors put together. His combat prowess is amplified in ''VideoGame/KingdomHearts2'''s ActionCommands, but this serves only to highlight the dissonance.

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* ''Franchise/KingdomHearts'': Sora, The Protagonist [[TheProtagonist Sora]] is goofy, naive, lacks angst ''and'' ambition, and is incredibly gentle and empathic. His attitude screams the opposite of badassery. He is also quite possibly the second most powerful individual in the universe, beaten out by a reality warping PhysicalGod. Without training or preparation, he has accomplished more than three of his (formally trained) predecessors put together. His combat prowess is amplified in ''VideoGame/KingdomHearts2'''s ''VideoGame/KingdomHeartsII'''s ActionCommands, but this serves only to highlight the dissonance.



** ActionGirl and {{Proud Warrior Race G|uy}}irl Lyndis aka Lyn is used as the yardstick by which a lot of FE females are measured. I.e., lead female Eirika from ''VideoGame/FireEmblemTheSacredStones'' is often compared disfavorably to Lyn (being called "a step backward" in feminism due to being girlier), and "weaker" females like Ninian, Florina or Nino are hotly bashed for "not being strong women" like Lyn is.

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** ActionGirl and {{Proud Warrior Race G|uy}}irl Lyndis aka Lyn is used as the yardstick by which a lot of FE females are measured. I.e., lead female Eirika from ''VideoGame/FireEmblemTheSacredStones'' is often compared disfavorably unfavorably to Lyn (being called "a step backward" in feminism due to being girlier), and "weaker" females like Ninian, Florina or Nino are hotly bashed for "not being strong women" like Lyn is.



** ''VideoGame/FireEmblemAwakening'': Cower before the sheer hatred poor [[SubmissiveBadass Sumia]] gets for this. Never mind the fact that she single-handedly saved Chrom's life ''in her first battle'', that she once [[GetAHoldOfYourselfMan hits him to get him out of his funk]] ''and'' that [[LadyOfWar she never backs off the battlefield]] [[ActionMom even if she's married with kids]], the FanDumb still considers her "weak" and [[RealWomenDontWearDresses "anti-feminist"]] for ''daring'' to [[ThroughHisStomach bake Chrom pies and do his laundry during their supports.]] Most of this hate comes from fans of other Chrom pairings who use this trope in an attempt to "justify" their DieForOurShip towards here. (Much like Ninian in FE 7) It helps this preception that two of Chrom's other potential love interests, Sully and the Female Avatar, are TheLadette and a BadassBookworm respectively (and Sully is [[GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff much more popular in America than in Japan]]); this made both poor girls (very powerful ''and'' likeable characters in their own rights, and good friends with Sumia to boot) the ''perfect'' vessels for the sexist fangirls who think "feminine bad, tomboyish good", [[{{hypocrite}} often while reducing Sully and Female Avatar's worth as women to either of them getting Chrom's cock for herself]].

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** ''VideoGame/FireEmblemAwakening'': Cower before the sheer hatred poor [[SubmissiveBadass Sumia]] gets for this. Never mind the fact that she single-handedly saved Chrom's life ''in her first battle'', that she once [[GetAHoldOfYourselfMan hits him to get him out of his funk]] ''and'' that [[LadyOfWar she never backs off the battlefield]] [[ActionMom even if she's married with kids]], the FanDumb still considers her "weak" and [[RealWomenDontWearDresses "anti-feminist"]] for ''daring'' to [[ThroughHisStomach bake Chrom pies and do his laundry during their supports.]] Most of this hate comes from fans of other Chrom pairings who use this trope in an attempt to "justify" their DieForOurShip towards here. (Much like Ninian in FE 7) It helps this preception perception that two of Chrom's other potential love interests, Sully and the Female Avatar, are TheLadette and a BadassBookworm respectively (and Sully is [[GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff much more popular in America than in Japan]]); this made both poor girls (very powerful ''and'' likeable characters in their own rights, and good friends with Sumia to boot) the ''perfect'' vessels for the sexist fangirls who think "feminine bad, tomboyish good", [[{{hypocrite}} often while reducing Sully and Female Avatar's worth as women to either of them getting Chrom's cock for herself]].



* ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolid2SonsOfLiberty'''s Raiden got a lot of flak from fanboys, mostly for being a ReplacementScrappy for Solid Snake, but attributed to him being a "weak, [[{{Bishonen}} overly-feminine]] character" (despite the fact that he fought well, ''taking down several Metal Gears, killing the BigBad'', and did far better than most people could have done in his [[GambitPileup profoundly shitty situation]], leaving with renewed purpose, the [[WellDoneSonGuy respect of his mentor]], a renewed relationship with the woman he loved, and with the child of a castmate still alive). ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolid4GunsOfThePatriots'' reinvented him to be a cyborg ninja, and these days, he's a lot more popular - even though his ninja self spent half of the game dying slowly of kidney failure and whining about his awful situation. To be fair, he's ''still'' a powerful fighter who has his fair share of BigDamnHeroes moments, but the primary difference between his ''[[VideoGame/MetalGearSolid2 MGS2]]'' and ''[[VideoGame/MetalGearSolid4 MGS4]]'' personas seems to be {{Angst}} more than anything else. It just goes to show how shallow this trope (and/or people's standards of Badassery) is; Raiden was judged pathetic because of his [[PrettyBoy appearance]] (his actions did not matter).
* ''Videogame/MegaManX'': The title character of the series gets this a lot. His viewpoint (except for in the seventh game) is that he'd rather not fight, but does because he feels he has to. Because he wishes he didn't have to go to war, he's usually portrayed as a pansy and/or gay (though the latter has more to do with the HoYay between him and Zero). Zero, by contrast, is a {{Badass}} killbot with a laser sword, who enjoys EpicBattleBoredom, and is thus ''much'' more popular.
** Fans also like to completely ignore the fact that once X has all his upgrades and armors, he's an unstoppable OneManArmy who is much more powerful than Zero. Not only that but both he and Zero have climatically fought each other ''to a tie'', Zero outright says X is the better Hunter, and a bad guy [[ColonyDrop killed millions]] so X would fight him all-out (and had no interest in fighting Zero). But no, still a pansy because he realizes that after 8 wars, more fighting doesn't solve anything. It's truly amazing how many people can dismiss him technically beating Zero in X5, while surrounded by a virus that weakens him and renders Zero {{Nigh Invulnerab|ility}}le, and only succumbs to its effects ''after'' beating the death machine into the ground.

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* ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolid2SonsOfLiberty'''s Raiden got a lot of flak from fanboys, mostly for being a ReplacementScrappy for Solid Snake, but attributed to him being a "weak, [[{{Bishonen}} overly-feminine]] character" (despite the fact that he fought well, ''taking down several Metal Gears, killing the BigBad'', and did far better than most people could have done in his [[GambitPileup profoundly shitty situation]], leaving with renewed purpose, the [[WellDoneSonGuy respect of his mentor]], a renewed relationship with the woman he loved, and with the child of a castmate still alive). ''VideoGame/MetalGearSolid4GunsOfThePatriots'' reinvented him to be a cyborg ninja, and these days, he's a lot more popular - even though his ninja self spent half of the game dying slowly of kidney failure and whining about his awful situation. To be fair, he's ''still'' a powerful fighter who has his fair share of BigDamnHeroes moments, but the primary difference between his ''[[VideoGame/MetalGearSolid2 MGS2]]'' ''[=MGS2=]'' and ''[[VideoGame/MetalGearSolid4 MGS4]]'' ''[=MGS4=]'' personas seems to be {{Angst}} more than anything else. It just goes to show how shallow this trope (and/or people's standards of Badassery) is; Raiden was judged pathetic because of his [[PrettyBoy appearance]] (his actions did not matter).
* ''Videogame/MegaManX'': The title character of the series gets this a lot. His viewpoint (except for in [[Videogame/MegaManX7 the seventh game) game]]) is that he'd rather not fight, but does because he feels he has to. Because he wishes he didn't have to go to war, he's usually portrayed as a pansy and/or gay (though the latter has more to do with the HoYay between him and Zero). Zero, by contrast, is a {{Badass}} killbot with a laser sword, who enjoys EpicBattleBoredom, and is thus ''much'' more popular.
**
popular. Fans also like to completely ignore the fact that once X has all his upgrades and armors, he's an unstoppable OneManArmy who is much more powerful than Zero. Not only that but both he and Zero have climatically fought each other ''to a tie'', Zero outright says X is the better Hunter, and a bad guy [[ColonyDrop killed millions]] so X would fight him all-out (and had no interest in fighting Zero). But no, still a pansy because he realizes that after 8 wars, more fighting doesn't solve anything. It's truly amazing how many people can dismiss him technically beating Zero in X5, while surrounded by a virus that weakens him and renders Zero {{Nigh Invulnerab|ility}}le, and only succumbs to its effects ''after'' beating the death machine into the ground.



* ''VideoGame/TheKingOfFighters'': This one of the reasons why Yuki was hated. Since she was a mix of BarrierMaiden and OrdinaryHighSchoolStudent who didn't fight, fans of other female characters thought she was stupid, useless, weak, and [[DieForOurShip stole Kyo from "more deserving" strong females]] (and/or [[HoYay other males]]).
* Kyrie from ''VideoGame/SandsOfDestruction'' isn't the most manly of men: he ApologizesALot, he's a ReluctantWarrior, he follows the whims of a very destructive girl because he fell in LoveAtFirstSight but never tries to get in her panties, favoring verbal confessions of love to anything physical. If you flipped the genders of the leads, you'd have a very typical story about a gentle soul whose LoveRedeems, but with the male as the patient LoveMartyr, fans get annoyed. This is despite the fact that, unlike the anime, Kyrie ''is'' a legitimate fighter here and is capable with his knives; he would just really rather not use them.
* It seems that in ''VideoGame/BlazBlue'', the only way you could attain fan interest if that if you have Godlike, [[GameBreaker reality-breaking]] powers or can stand up to them, or for the fans of 'good morality', can go toe-to-toe with the two broken villains: Terumi and Relius (and always refusing them). These are probably why even Platinum the Trinity, who could be considered TheScrappy, might be escaping it a bit, because she's the host of Trinity Glassfile, one of the Six Heroes. This is why back in the old days, Jin Kisaragi was widely hated in favor of his more {{Badass}} and more 'morally straight' Hakumen (in spite of Hakumen being a KnightTemplar, apparently being a {{Badass}} means that everything you do is more righteous). This is also why fans enjoy morally questionable characters like Rachel and Kokonoe because they oppose Terumi and are some of the most powerful individuals in the verse. This is also why characters like Litchi and Arakune are largely ignored or derided even with their tragic story ongoing... solely because the former is OvershadowedByAwesome (in both muscles and brains, by Kokonoe) and ''dares'' become an UnwittingPawn for those villains and mopes around her personal problem instead of shoving them off and focusing on awesome things like world-saving, and the other one... seems to never get past of being a CannonFodder type {{Mook}} in the eyes of many. This is also why Noel is always considered a whiny crybaby, because of her acts in the earlier games, and only after Chronophantasma that she gains confidence that fans started looking up to her more, though not everyone, and this is also why Makoto is praised like hell, because if anything, she tanks up everything Terumi threw to her, continues being a 'good guy' and wrecked his plans (even by accident) in her CS EX story. This whole thing is more prevalent in America, because [[AmericanKirbyIsHardcore badassery is worshipped like a God there.]]

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* ''VideoGame/TheKingOfFighters'': This one One of the reasons why Yuki was hated. Since she was a mix of BarrierMaiden and OrdinaryHighSchoolStudent who didn't fight, fans of other female characters thought she was stupid, useless, weak, and [[DieForOurShip stole Kyo from "more deserving" strong females]] (and/or [[HoYay other males]]).
* Kyrie from ''VideoGame/SandsOfDestruction'' isn't the most manly of men: he ApologizesALot, ApologisesALot, he's a ReluctantWarrior, he follows the whims of a very destructive girl because he fell in LoveAtFirstSight but never tries to get in her panties, favoring verbal confessions of love to anything physical. If you flipped the genders of the leads, you'd have a very typical story about a gentle soul whose LoveRedeems, but with the male as the patient LoveMartyr, fans get annoyed. This is despite the fact that, unlike the anime, Kyrie ''is'' a legitimate fighter here and is capable with his knives; he would just really rather not use them.
* It seems that in ''VideoGame/BlazBlue'', the only way you could attain fan interest if that if you have Godlike, [[GameBreaker reality-breaking]] powers or can stand up to them, or for the fans of 'good morality', can go toe-to-toe with the two broken villains: Terumi and Relius (and always refusing them). These are probably why even Platinum the Trinity, who could be considered TheScrappy, might be escaping it a bit, because she's the host of Trinity Glassfile, one of the Six Heroes. This is why back in the old days, Jin Kisaragi was widely hated in favor of his more {{Badass}} and more 'morally straight' Hakumen (in spite of Hakumen being a KnightTemplar, apparently being a {{Badass}} means that everything you do is more righteous). This is also why fans enjoy morally questionable characters like Rachel and Kokonoe because they oppose Terumi and are some of the most powerful individuals in the verse. This is also why characters like Litchi and Arakune are largely ignored or derided even with their tragic story ongoing... solely because the former is OvershadowedByAwesome (in both muscles and brains, by Kokonoe) and ''dares'' become an UnwittingPawn for those villains and mopes around her personal problem instead of shoving them off and focusing on awesome things like world-saving, and the other one... seems to never get past of being a CannonFodder type {{Mook}} {{Mook|s}} in the eyes of many. This is also why Noel is always considered a whiny crybaby, because of her acts in the earlier games, and only after Chronophantasma that she gains confidence that fans started looking up to her more, though not everyone, and this is also why Makoto is praised like hell, because if anything, she tanks up everything Terumi threw to her, continues being a 'good guy' and wrecked his plans (even by accident) in her CS EX story. This whole thing is more prevalent in America, because [[AmericanKirbyIsHardcore badassery is worshipped like a God there.]]



* An in-universe example: in Season 10 of ''Machinima/RedVsBlue'', Church claims that Washington has gone from being a {{Badass}} Freelancer who could fight toe-to-toe with Tex to [[spoiler:Carolina]]'s whipping boy - yet he is still a skilled fighter and has in fact [[spoiler:turned the Blues into a much more effective fighting force]]. The BadassDecay is relative when compared to [[spoiler:[[BrokenAce Carolina]]]]. Then it gets completely revoked when he [[spoiler:puts a gun to Carolina's head when she threatens Tucker and shoots her an IronicEcho before walking out on her.]]

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* An in-universe example: in Season 10 of ''Machinima/RedVsBlue'', Church claims that Washington has gone from being a {{Badass}} Freelancer who could fight toe-to-toe with Tex to [[spoiler:Carolina]]'s whipping boy - yet he is still a skilled fighter and has in fact [[spoiler:turned the Blues into a much more effective fighting force]]. The BadassDecay is relative when compared to [[spoiler:[[BrokenAce Carolina]]]]. Then it gets completely revoked when he [[spoiler:puts a gun to Carolina's head when she threatens Tucker and shoots her an IronicEcho before walking out on her.]]her]].



* ''WebVideo/RedLetterMedia'': PlayedForLaughs InUniverse. In "Mr. Plinkett Reacts to the ''Franchise/StarWars: Film/TheForceAwakens'' Trailer", Mr. Plinkett makes fun of [[Characters/StarWarsImperialCourt Emperor Palpatine]] for [[UnderestimatingBadassery not being badass enough]]. At least by today's standards, mainly because [[BadassGrandpa he doesn't look the part]].

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* ''WebVideo/RedLetterMedia'': PlayedForLaughs InUniverse. In "Mr. Plinkett Reacts to the ''Franchise/StarWars: Film/TheForceAwakens'' Trailer", Mr. Plinkett makes fun of [[Characters/StarWarsImperialCourt [[Characters/StarWarsEmperorPalpatine Emperor Palpatine]] for [[UnderestimatingBadassery not being badass enough]]. At least by today's standards, mainly because [[BadassGrandpa he doesn't look the part]].



*** The trope was lampshaded in series. Korra at first assumed that Asami was a prissy RichBitch only into shopping and makeovers, and only started treating her with respect when she learned she was a BikerBabe. Korra was not supposed to be seen as being in the right: it was established that she had [[NoSocialSkills a chronic lack of social skills]] due to [[SkilledButNaive her sheltered upbringing]], that she was acting very rude towards the SpoiledSweet girl who sponsored her and her team, and she also made lots of assumptions ''solely'' based on Asami's looks and her wealthy background without bothering to dig deeper. [[CharacterDevelopment She later took these assumptions back]], aknowledging that having girlier interests doesn't automatically equal to being a priss.

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*** The trope was lampshaded in series. Korra at first assumed that Asami was a prissy RichBitch only into shopping and makeovers, and only started treating her with respect when she learned she was a BikerBabe. Korra was not supposed to be seen as being in the right: it was established that she had [[NoSocialSkills a chronic lack of social skills]] due to [[SkilledButNaive her sheltered upbringing]], that she was acting very rude towards the SpoiledSweet girl who sponsored her and her team, and she also made lots of assumptions ''solely'' based on Asami's looks and her wealthy background without bothering to dig deeper. [[CharacterDevelopment She later took these assumptions back]], aknowledging acknowledging that having girlier interests doesn't automatically equal to being a priss.



* ''WesternAnimation/ThunderCats2011'': Lion-O gets this treatment both in and out of universe. His more pacifistic and merciful attitude is dismissed and mocked by his own race for not adhering to their warrior culture values. On the fandom side, many fans have expressed a disliking of Lion-O for losing a lot of the battles he gets into, especially in contrast to his brother Tygra who beats him every time they fight. When Lion-O does overcome his enemies, it is usually done through cunning or seen as being done too easily or without any real skill.
** What's ironic is that a major theme of the series is showing how [[DeconstructedTrope someone doesn't need to be badass to be heroic]], nor do they even need to be a good fighter to be badass, and how ultimately ruling through strength instead of kindness causes more problems than it solves. In fact, it could be said that the series subtly deconstructs this trope and that many fans miss this point. Lion-O's real victories don't come from simply defeating Mumm-Ra, but through his ability to unite the races of Third Earth, some of whom have hated each other for centuries.

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* ''WesternAnimation/ThunderCats2011'': Lion-O gets this treatment both in and out of universe. His more pacifistic and merciful attitude is dismissed and mocked by his own race for not adhering to their warrior culture values. On the fandom side, many fans have expressed a disliking of Lion-O for losing a lot of the battles he gets into, especially in contrast to his brother Tygra who beats him every time they fight. When Lion-O does overcome his enemies, it is usually done through cunning or seen as being done too easily or without any real skill. \n** What's ironic is that a major theme of the series is showing how [[DeconstructedTrope someone doesn't need to be badass to be heroic]], nor do they even need to be a good fighter to be badass, and how ultimately ruling through strength instead of kindness causes more problems than it solves. In fact, it could be said that the series subtly deconstructs this trope and that many fans miss this point. Lion-O's real victories don't come from simply defeating Mumm-Ra, but through his ability to unite the races of Third Earth, some of whom have hated each other for centuries.



* UsefulNotes/JimmyCarter has frequently faced ridicule for being "soft" or "wimpy", despite having served as a submariner in the early years of the Cold War. He has been the only modern US president who didn't lead the country into any major armed conflicts (although that may be due to the backlash against the Vietnam War).
* Germany after World War I was especially bitter that their surrender was done when none of their ground was lost and had to give up because of an economic asphyxiation which is kind of a Fabian strategy. The Nazis even used the November Criminals approach to have the veteran sides with them against the cowards who stabbed them in the back by not contributing to the war effort despite that it was clear the war was lost.

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* UsefulNotes/JimmyCarter has frequently faced ridicule for being "soft" or "wimpy", despite having served as a submariner in the early years of the Cold War.UsefulNotes/ColdWar. He has been the only modern US president who didn't lead the country into any major armed conflicts (although that may be due to the backlash against the Vietnam War).
* Germany after World War I UsefulNotes/WorldWarI was especially bitter that their surrender was done when none of their ground was lost and had to give up because of an economic asphyxiation which is kind of a Fabian strategy. The Nazis even used the November Criminals approach to have the veteran sides with them against the cowards who stabbed them in the back by not contributing to the war effort despite that it was clear the war was lost.
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