History Main / WeWillUseManualLaborInTheFuture

24th Nov '16 8:16:03 AM Saber15
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* In the sequel, ''Videogame/EliteDangerous'', the democratic/corporate Federation is heavily automated, while the patronage/oligarchy Empire makes heavy use of 'Imperial slaves' for manual labor. Imperial slavery is essentially a form of IndenturedServitude where people under debt sell themselves for a set period to a buyer, who manages their expenses, health, and gives them an agreed-upon workload; this is generally considered to be a spartan, but livable arrangement. However, at the borders of Imperial space the slaves may be traded to shady Commanders who fly off to Federal and Independent space to sell them on the totally unregulated black market, and there are several instances of the Empire invading systems and taking the citizens as Imperial Slaves.
14th Nov '16 2:48:14 PM Antigone3
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** {{Cosplay}} is a good example, most cosplayers will make their own costumes. Ditto Goth, [[ElegantGothicLolita Gothic Lolita]] and other "do it yourself" fashions promoting hard work and original looks. They will mock those whose hardest work is swiping the credit card.

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** {{Cosplay}} is a good example, most cosplayers will make their own costumes. Ditto Goth, [[ElegantGothicLolita Gothic Lolita]] and other "do it yourself" fashions promoting hard work and original looks. They will mock those whose hardest work is swiping the credit card. Some cosplay/costuming competitions are limited to those who did the work themselves (or, in the case of child fans, got Mom or Dad to do the work) and ban purchased costumes.
9th Nov '16 1:59:03 PM nombretomado
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* Played for laughs in JonathanCoulton's song ''Chiron Beta Prime''...

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* Played for laughs in JonathanCoulton's Music/JonathanCoulton's song ''Chiron Beta Prime''...
9th Nov '16 11:28:50 AM nombretomado
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* TheJetsons have robots and automated gizmos coming out their ears, but George Jetson still has to go into the office to push a button repeatedly. (Jane and the kids occasionally complain about housework or chores, also done by pressing a button.) Granted this is kinda PlayedForLaughs, but it does seem that if any job could be done by a robot this would be it. Since we're never shown any real details, it's possible that the ''timing'' of pushing the button requires human discretion.

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* TheJetsons ''WesternAnimation/TheJetsons'' have robots and automated gizmos coming out their ears, but George Jetson still has to go into the office to push a button repeatedly. (Jane and the kids occasionally complain about housework or chores, also done by pressing a button.) Granted this is kinda PlayedForLaughs, but it does seem that if any job could be done by a robot this would be it. Since we're never shown any real details, it's possible that the ''timing'' of pushing the button requires human discretion.



** Cooking is another. Cooking is a complex art and science that actually requires a lot of skill, and making an automat for every single recipe will be costly. TheFifties promised us a [[TheJetsons Jetsons' kitchen]] complete with FoodPills-- but many of the "labor-saving devices" never really caught on, except the blender and food processor. What's more, better understanding of nutrition and human physiognomy makes food pills impractical (some basic nutrients will always require a larger-than-pill mass, and human gastric stretch receptors, which help indicate fullness, wouldn't be triggered by itty-bitty pills).

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** Cooking is another. Cooking is a complex art and science that actually requires a lot of skill, and making an automat for every single recipe will be costly. TheFifties promised us a [[TheJetsons [[WesternAnimation/TheJetsons Jetsons' kitchen]] complete with FoodPills-- but many of the "labor-saving devices" never really caught on, except the blender and food processor. What's more, better understanding of nutrition and human physiognomy makes food pills impractical (some basic nutrients will always require a larger-than-pill mass, and human gastric stretch receptors, which help indicate fullness, wouldn't be triggered by itty-bitty pills).
1st Nov '16 9:28:44 PM PaulA
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* In ''Nova'' by Creator/SamuelRDelany, everyone in the future has cyborg implants that allow them to interface with machinery, letting people control any machine, from vacuum cleaners to spaceships, and pseudo-physically perform labor through them--not quite manual labor, but not using robots. While it would be possible to automate everything, it was found that people have a psychological need to connect their actions to work rather than letting robots do everything for them.

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* In ''Nova'' ''Literature/{{Nova}}'' by Creator/SamuelRDelany, everyone in the future has cyborg implants that allow them to interface with machinery, letting people control any machine, from vacuum cleaners to spaceships, and pseudo-physically perform labor through them--not quite manual labor, but not using robots. While it would be possible to automate everything, it was found that people have a psychological need to connect their actions to work rather than letting robots do everything for them.
19th Oct '16 10:16:22 PM Fireblood
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** Jared Diamond, an anthropologist, argues in his book ''Guns, Germs and Steel'' that many factors contribute to why Europe developed industry ahead of other places, including ones like China that actually had more native inventions. First, there's the resources on hand as mentioned above-can't industrialize if you don't have the right metals easily available. Second, politics-if you have a number of separate states, an inventor has more options when attempting to sell his idea. China once had the best sea ships in the world, but the Emperor decided they were unneeded since they already had everything, and discontinued them. By contrast, European states were almost constantly fighting and competing over resources. Thus someone like Columbus could still get backing from Spain when he was rejected first by his native Genoa and then Portugal. Similarly, Da Vinci worked for the Duke of Milan, and then the French, who had ''conquered'' Milan. China had everything centrally controlled, and distrusted the potentially disruptive changes inventions could bring, so most languished.

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** Jared Diamond, an anthropologist, argues in his book ''Guns, Germs and Steel'' that many factors contribute to why Europe developed industry ahead of other places, including ones like China that actually had many more native inventions. First, there's the resources on hand as mentioned above-can't industrialize if you don't have the right metals easily available. Second, politics-if you have a number of separate states, an inventor has more options when attempting to sell his idea. China once had the best sea ships in the world, but the Emperor decided they were unneeded since they already had everything, and discontinued them. By contrast, European states were almost constantly fighting and competing over resources. Thus someone like Columbus could still get backing from Spain when he was rejected first by his native Genoa and then Portugal. Similarly, Da Vinci worked for the Duke of Milan, and then the French, who had ''conquered'' Milan. China had was a unified empire with everything centrally controlled, and their government distrusted the potentially disruptive changes inventions could bring, so most languished.
19th Oct '16 10:13:43 PM Fireblood
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* An interesting historical case: Ancient Greece. Towards the later parts of its history, this society seemed to be teetering on the brink of an industrial revolution, but never quite made the plunge, instead sticking with slavery and other traditional, labour-intensive methods of production. Ancient Greece had a great deal of scientific thinkers, the capacity to build complex mechanical devices, and even developed a simple steam engine. The steam engine especially, if developed further and perfected, could have been used to simplify a lot of labour-intensive jobs, as it was when the Industrial Revolution finally did roll around. But the Ancient Greeks saw it as nothing more than a curious toy.
** Those that did think the steam engine was great tended to not be taken seriously. One guy was pretty sure that Hero's Engine could be used to predict the weather. Given that the boiling point of water varies depending on air pressure, and that quite a bit of the weather is dependent on moving high/low pressure fronts, he was probably actually on to something. Ancient Greece also had several factors working against it that are considered a requirement for industrialization. First, their technology base was actually very low, to the point that they had little access to high grade iron for a good steel industry. Second, they had no real centralized polity to ram the reforms down their throats. Third, they would not have been able to afford it even if they did have a fully centralized authority. They actually saw the potential, but wrote it off as a case of AwesomeButImpractical. Even the Romans, who could have possibly done it to a limited degree, would not have been able to fully pull it off for the first and third reasons respectively. The nations of Europe in the late 18th century which kicked the industrial revolution off actually had more concentrated wealth ''individually'' than the entire Roman Empire at its' height.
** Consider also the medieval Chinese, who invented so many amazing feats of chemistry, engineering and metallurgy yet somehow were eclipsed by the western European nations and remained a bit of an industrial backwater for hundreds of years. Though much of this was cultural, as Confucianism taught rigorous adherence to the status quo. The Chinese were never able to separate philosophy from religion and they were never able to invent the scientific ''method''. They did have all the ingredients for the scientific and technological revolution, but they never made the final breakthrough. Once that was introduced from outside, however, China has rapidly risen to the spearhead of technology.

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* An interesting historical case: Ancient Greece. Towards the later parts of its history, this society seemed to be teetering on the brink of an industrial revolution, but never quite made the plunge, instead sticking with slavery and other traditional, labour-intensive labor-intensive methods of production. Ancient Greece had a great deal of scientific thinkers, the capacity to build complex mechanical devices, and even developed a simple steam engine. The steam engine especially, if developed further and perfected, could have been used to simplify a lot of labour-intensive labor-intensive jobs, as it was when the Industrial Revolution finally did roll around. But the Ancient Greeks saw it as nothing more than a curious toy.
** Those that did think the steam engine was great tended to not be taken seriously. One guy was pretty sure that Hero's Engine could be used to predict the weather. Given that the boiling point of water varies depending on air pressure, and that quite a bit of the weather is dependent on moving high/low pressure fronts, he was probably actually on to something. Ancient Greece also had several factors working against it that are considered a requirement for industrialization. First, their technology base was actually very low, to the point that they had little access to high grade iron for a good steel industry. Second, they had no real centralized polity to ram the reforms down their throats. Third, they would not have been able to afford it even if they did have a fully centralized authority. They actually saw the potential, but wrote it off as a case of AwesomeButImpractical. Even the Romans, who could have possibly done it to a limited degree, would not have been able to fully pull it off for the first and third reasons respectively. The nations of Europe in the late 18th century which kicked the industrial revolution off actually had more concentrated wealth ''individually'' than the entire Roman Empire at its' it's height.
** Consider also the medieval Chinese, who invented so many amazing feats of chemistry, engineering and metallurgy yet somehow were eclipsed by the western European nations and remained a bit of an industrial backwater for hundreds of years. Though much of this was cultural, as Confucianism taught rigorous adherence to the status quo. The Chinese were never able to separate philosophy from religion and they were never able to invent the scientific ''method''. They did have all the ingredients for the scientific and technological revolution, but they never made the final breakthrough. Once that was introduced from outside, however, China has rapidly risen to the spearhead of technology.
** Jared Diamond, an anthropologist, argues in his book ''Guns, Germs and Steel'' that many factors contribute to why Europe developed industry ahead of other places, including ones like China that actually had more native inventions. First, there's the resources on hand as mentioned above-can't industrialize if you don't have the right metals easily available. Second, politics-if you have a number of separate states, an inventor has more options when attempting to sell his idea. China once had the best sea ships in the world, but the Emperor decided they were unneeded since they already had everything, and discontinued them. By contrast, European states were almost constantly fighting and competing over resources. Thus someone like Columbus could still get backing from Spain when he was rejected first by his native Genoa and then Portugal. Similarly, Da Vinci worked for the Duke of Milan, and then the French, who had ''conquered'' Milan. China had everything centrally controlled, and distrusted the potentially disruptive changes inventions could bring, so most languished.



As time passed on, though, overall Chinese economic growth meant that fewer and fewer people are willing to tolerate harsh working conditions and meager pay, so the labour unrest became a problem for the company. Add to that the calls for product boycotting from the labour action groups and displeasure from the brands itselves, [[SlaveToPR who are conscious about their image]], and cue the news that Foxconn is investing astronomical sums into the automated assembly. Robots may be more expensive in the long run, but they don't make a fuss and don't [[TheDogBitesBack beat the managers half to death]].
* Sailing. No matter the size of the boat, anything from hauling the sails to changing the tack is done manually. That because yachts are usually cramped boats with little space for extra machinery, and because technology has a tendency to fail when least expected. Besides that, crewmembers are easily moveable ballast where extra weight is needed. Back when steam had only started to make inroads, ''huge'' crews that sailing ships had were their second main disadvantage after their reliance on the weather. Steamboat might've needed a place for coal and thus carry less cargo, but it could be manned by twenty sailors instead of more than hundred like a sailboat of same size. So the mechanical winches were installed, sail plans simplified, emergency engines mounted, and last cargo-carrying sail ships actually had remarkably small crews, not much larger than steamships, with sailors almost never going aloft. But ''then'' is was discovered that sailing makes an excellent practice even for steamship sailors. And so the ''tall ships'' were born a mobile classes of various marine schools, which are ''intentionally'' built in the old-fashioned way to teach the cadets what the sea really ''is''. There are several unconventional and very high performance designs that use sail-by-wire or computer controlled sail trimming... the [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELL5lTE9Tek Walker Wingsail]] design is nearly [[OlderThanTheyThink 20 years old]] and the [[http://www.sailrocket.com/node/286 Vestas Sailrocket]] is a later design capable of 65 knots under sail power. There's still no substitute for something that can be repaired and driven by hand though, given that you don't want your motors to seize up or your electronics when you're several days or weeks sail away from land...

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As time passed on, though, overall Chinese economic growth meant that fewer and fewer people are willing to tolerate harsh working conditions and meager pay, so the labour labor unrest became a problem for the company. Add to that the calls for product boycotting from the labour labor action groups and displeasure from the brands itselves, themselves, [[SlaveToPR who are conscious about their image]], image]] and cue the news that Foxconn is investing astronomical sums into the automated assembly. Robots may be more expensive in the long run, but they don't make a fuss and don't [[TheDogBitesBack beat the managers half to death]].
* Sailing. No matter the size of the boat, anything from hauling the sails to changing the tack is done manually. That That's because yachts are usually cramped boats with little space for extra machinery, and because technology has a tendency to fail when least expected. Besides that, crewmembers crew members are easily moveable movable ballast where extra weight is needed. Back when steam had only started to make inroads, ''huge'' crews that sailing ships had were their second main disadvantage after their reliance on the weather. Steamboat Steamboats might've needed a place for coal and thus carry less cargo, but it they could be manned by twenty sailors instead of more than hundred like a sailboat of same size. So the mechanical winches were installed, sail plans simplified, emergency engines mounted, and last cargo-carrying sail ships actually had remarkably small crews, not much larger than steamships, with sailors almost never going aloft. But ''then'' is was discovered that sailing makes an excellent practice even for steamship sailors. And so the ''tall ships'' were born a mobile classes of various marine schools, which are ''intentionally'' built in the old-fashioned way to teach the cadets what the sea really ''is''. There are several unconventional and very high performance designs that use sail-by-wire or computer controlled sail trimming... the [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELL5lTE9Tek Walker Wingsail]] design is nearly [[OlderThanTheyThink 20 years old]] and the [[http://www.sailrocket.com/node/286 Vestas Sailrocket]] is a later design capable of 65 knots under sail power. There's still no substitute for something that can be repaired and driven by hand though, given that you don't want your motors to seize up or your electronics when you're several days or weeks sail away from land...
19th Oct '16 9:59:49 PM Fireblood
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** The Federation does it to the EMH-Mark-Is (upon which ''Series/StarTrekVoyager'''s Doctor is based). This, when they have devices capable of disassembling matter to the subatomic level and ships that bend the laws of reality at command, not to mention a race of friendly living ore processors (the Horta). But no, they consign outdated humanoid ''holograms'' with glorified shovels and picks to mining. This implies that the Federation either does this on a wide scale, or that they specifically modified this mine with holo-emitters to do such a thing.[[note]]Voyager's Doctor has a mobile holo-emitter, but this is [[BlackBox one of a kind device from 29th century which can't be replicated by 24th century technology]] and it's on board of Voyager in the Delta Quadrant anyway.[[/note]] No amount of FridgeLogic can save ''this'' one.

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** The Federation does it to the EMH-Mark-Is (upon which ''Series/StarTrekVoyager'''s Doctor is based). This, when they have devices capable of disassembling matter to the subatomic level and ships that bend the laws of reality at command, (including industrial ones, as mentioned on ''Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine''), not to mention a race of friendly living ore processors (the Horta). But no, they consign outdated humanoid ''holograms'' with glorified shovels and picks to mining. This implies that the Federation either does this on a wide scale, or that they specifically modified this mine with holo-emitters to do such a thing.[[note]]Voyager's Doctor has a mobile holo-emitter, but this is [[BlackBox one of a kind device from 29th century which can't be replicated by 24th century technology]] and it's on board of Voyager in the Delta Quadrant anyway.[[/note]] No amount of FridgeLogic can save ''this'' one.



** ''Series/StarTrekVoyager'': In "The 37's" an alien race capable of travelling from one side of the galaxy to the other brings back humans from 1937 as slaves. Also done in ''Series/StarTrekEnterprise'' "North Star" though the distance was a lot less. Comparatively speaking.

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** ''Series/StarTrekVoyager'': In "The 37's" an alien race capable of travelling from one side of the galaxy to the other brings back humans from 1937 as slaves. Also done in ''Series/StarTrekEnterprise'' ''Series/StarTrekEnterprise'''s "North Star" though the distance was a lot less. Comparatively speaking.



** Cardassians did this to their Bajoran subjects, as ''[[Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine Deep Space Nine]]'''s original function was as an orbital ore processing center. Its MirrorUniverse counterpart ''Terok Nor'' still is with the exception that Terrans are being used as laborers instead of Bajorans.

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** Cardassians did this to their Bajoran subjects, as ''[[Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine Deep ''Deep Space Nine]]'''s Nine'''s original function was as an orbital ore processing center. Its MirrorUniverse counterpart ''Terok Nor'' still is with the exception that Terrans are being used as laborers instead of Bajorans.
19th Oct '16 9:54:07 PM Fireblood
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* In Creator/HBeamPiper's story [[http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/20726 "A Slave Is A Slave"]], Aditya became a feudal world of a few masters ruling a population of slaves after the fall of the interstellar [[TheFederation Federation]]. One of the characters notes that slavery is economically inefficient compared to automation, but was apparently instituted to help the ruling class keep control.

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* In Creator/HBeamPiper's story [[http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/20726 "A Slave Is A Slave"]], Aditya became a feudal world of a few masters ruling a population of slaves after the fall of the interstellar [[TheFederation Federation]]. One of the characters notes that slavery is economically inefficient compared to automation, but was apparently instituted to help the ruling class keep control. It gets to the point that high-class slaves are mostly running the government, however, so when it falls to an invasion they can easily overthrow and slaughter their masters, declaring a communist state.
28th Aug '16 12:01:16 PM Morgenthaler
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** The [[UsefulNotes/RedsWithRockets Soviet school of design]] was informed heavily by [[UsefulNotes/WorldWarTwo WWII]] experience: although the [[NazisWithGnarlyWeapons German Überpanzer like the Panther and the Tiger]] could [[CurbStompBattle snipe Soviet tanks at extreme ranges]], they were notoriously unreliable and [[EliteArmy few in number]], owing to [[AwesomeButImpractical their bloated size and mass]] - the "medium" Panther was larger (and heavier) than the Soviet IS-2 heavy tank - and so the bulk of Heer armour was made of [[MookMobile Panzer IV]] and [[TanksButNoTanks StuG III]], which were nothing to write home about. This meant that the Soviets would keep capitalizing on the advantages of the T-34-85 (a fast and cheap JackOfAllStats) and then apply the same logic to NATO armour, expecting to counter their super-duper machines with [[ZergRush quantity]], [[ConfusionFu surprise, speed]], [[DeathFromAbove combined arms]] and [[AllYourBaseAreBelongToUs deep operations]], denying them [[HollywoodTactics a head-on engagement]] in which NATO armour would exploit its advantages. Not that it had that many - a Soviet tank of the [[UsefulNotes/ColdWar Cold War]] was armed with a [[{{BFG}} bigger gun]] and equally thick armour compared to a NATO design of the same [[TechnologyLevels generation]], while being [[LightningBruiser lighter]] (modern Western [=MBTs=] are approaching 70 t; [=ComBlock=] designs are no heavier than 45 t) and hence more agile and economically and logistically affordable. The sole reason for this was because, as it became apparent in WWII, the Soviets ruthlessly cut down on interior volume - while Western tanks are cramped, they seem [[UnnecessarilyLargeInterior ludicrously roomy]] in comparison with Soviet-school vehicles that are near ClownCar levels, which means that the crew, naturally, sit on top of ammo and fuel, and have by regulation to be shorter than 185 cm (which means that someone around 170 cm is actually comfortable). An autoloader does not worsen the safety situation, but helps shrink mass and size further by eliminating another member of the crew, and it was the Soviet mantra that the best protection is not being hit at all; also, the human loader would eventually get tired, and was a lot less effective in the more confined interior, as the pre-autoloader but equally small T-55 and T-62 show. Furthermore, Soviet tanks were expected to actively maneuver rather than snipe targets from hull-down positions (as NATO tanks were likely to be doing), and had poorer suspension; it is considerably harder to load the gun manually when the vertical stabilizer keeps thrusting the breech up and down. Additionally, the later-pattern autoloader on the T-72 is significantly less vulnerable: the shells are arranged not in a cylinder under the turret ring, but in a circle of the floor, and hidden at the very bottom of the vehicle behind an extra layer of armor - hence [[NoKillLikeOverkill anything capable of triggering a magazine detonation likely destroys the tank anyway]]. As to the spare shell lockers, the [[UsefulNotes/RussiansWithRustingRockets new T-90 variants]] do move them into a bustle storage compartment - and Hatedom run afoul of the [[{{Hatedom}} bustle haters]], who believe that any large turret bustle is extremely likely to get hit in combat, whereas the baseline T-90 has a compact (short and broad) turret, and [[LuckilyMyShieldWillProtectMe it is impossible to hit anything but the heavily-protected front from a sector of 60°]]. Also, many Abrams loaders jam the doors open, [[WhatAnIdiot completely nullifying the protective qualities of the system]] - to [[DangerousForbiddenTechnique keep the rate of fire up]]. Finally, autoloaders are believed to be more usable in future tanks for two aspects: firstly, as the LensmanArmsRace is liable to continue, [[{{BFG}} tank guns]] will likely get [[UpToEleven even bigger]]: as of 1990, there were prototypes of prototypes a Leopard 2 variant with a 140 mm cannon and a T-80 variant with a 152 mm gun. Both of these exceeded the practical abilities of human loaders and were fitted with autoloaders - much like modern 152-155 mm artillery, which uses at least partially mechanized loading instead of ''two'' loaders per gun. The second element of prospective [[RussiansWithRustingRockets Russian]] tanks is removing the crew from the turret altogether, settling the issue completely by using [[NighInvulnerability a front-mounted capsule tough enough to survive the destruction of the rest of the vehicle]] - while even further reducing the size of the turret.

to:

** The [[UsefulNotes/RedsWithRockets Soviet school of design]] was informed heavily by [[UsefulNotes/WorldWarTwo WWII]] experience: although the [[NazisWithGnarlyWeapons [[UsefulNotes/NazisWithGnarlyWeapons German Überpanzer like the Panther and the Tiger]] could [[CurbStompBattle snipe Soviet tanks at extreme ranges]], they were notoriously unreliable and [[EliteArmy few in number]], owing to [[AwesomeButImpractical their bloated size and mass]] - the "medium" Panther was larger (and heavier) than the Soviet IS-2 heavy tank - and so the bulk of Heer armour was made of [[MookMobile Panzer IV]] and [[TanksButNoTanks StuG III]], which were nothing to write home about. This meant that the Soviets would keep capitalizing on the advantages of the T-34-85 (a fast and cheap JackOfAllStats) and then apply the same logic to NATO armour, expecting to counter their super-duper machines with [[ZergRush quantity]], [[ConfusionFu surprise, speed]], [[DeathFromAbove combined arms]] and [[AllYourBaseAreBelongToUs deep operations]], denying them [[HollywoodTactics a head-on engagement]] in which NATO armour would exploit its advantages. Not that it had that many - a Soviet tank of the [[UsefulNotes/ColdWar Cold War]] was armed with a [[{{BFG}} bigger gun]] and equally thick armour compared to a NATO design of the same [[TechnologyLevels generation]], while being [[LightningBruiser lighter]] (modern Western [=MBTs=] are approaching 70 t; [=ComBlock=] designs are no heavier than 45 t) and hence more agile and economically and logistically affordable. The sole reason for this was because, as it became apparent in WWII, the Soviets ruthlessly cut down on interior volume - while Western tanks are cramped, they seem [[UnnecessarilyLargeInterior ludicrously roomy]] in comparison with Soviet-school vehicles that are near ClownCar levels, which means that the crew, naturally, sit on top of ammo and fuel, and have by regulation to be shorter than 185 cm (which means that someone around 170 cm is actually comfortable). An autoloader does not worsen the safety situation, but helps shrink mass and size further by eliminating another member of the crew, and it was the Soviet mantra that the best protection is not being hit at all; also, the human loader would eventually get tired, and was a lot less effective in the more confined interior, as the pre-autoloader but equally small T-55 and T-62 show. Furthermore, Soviet tanks were expected to actively maneuver rather than snipe targets from hull-down positions (as NATO tanks were likely to be doing), and had poorer suspension; it is considerably harder to load the gun manually when the vertical stabilizer keeps thrusting the breech up and down. Additionally, the later-pattern autoloader on the T-72 is significantly less vulnerable: the shells are arranged not in a cylinder under the turret ring, but in a circle of the floor, and hidden at the very bottom of the vehicle behind an extra layer of armor - hence [[NoKillLikeOverkill anything capable of triggering a magazine detonation likely destroys the tank anyway]]. As to the spare shell lockers, the [[UsefulNotes/RussiansWithRustingRockets new T-90 variants]] do move them into a bustle storage compartment - and Hatedom run afoul of the [[{{Hatedom}} bustle haters]], who believe that any large turret bustle is extremely likely to get hit in combat, whereas the baseline T-90 has a compact (short and broad) turret, and [[LuckilyMyShieldWillProtectMe it is impossible to hit anything but the heavily-protected front from a sector of 60°]]. Also, many Abrams loaders jam the doors open, [[WhatAnIdiot completely nullifying the protective qualities of the system]] - to [[DangerousForbiddenTechnique keep the rate of fire up]]. Finally, autoloaders are believed to be more usable in future tanks for two aspects: firstly, as the LensmanArmsRace is liable to continue, [[{{BFG}} tank guns]] will likely get [[UpToEleven even bigger]]: as of 1990, there were prototypes of prototypes a Leopard 2 variant with a 140 mm cannon and a T-80 variant with a 152 mm gun. Both of these exceeded the practical abilities of human loaders and were fitted with autoloaders - much like modern 152-155 mm artillery, which uses at least partially mechanized loading instead of ''two'' loaders per gun. The second element of prospective [[RussiansWithRustingRockets Russian]] tanks is removing the crew from the turret altogether, settling the issue completely by using [[NighInvulnerability a front-mounted capsule tough enough to survive the destruction of the rest of the vehicle]] - while even further reducing the size of the turret.
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