History Main / VillainHasaPoint

19th May '18 1:55:29 PM infernape612
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* Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse:

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* Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse:''Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse'':



** Hela the BigBad of ''Film/ThorRagnarok'' wants to take over Asgard and conquer everything in sight. While her would be followers scoff at her, Asgard only became so powerful and influential because she and Odin already did it once before. With Odin having been a warmonger before becoming the benevolent king everyone knows him as now. [[WrittenByTheWinners Changing history to make himself and Asgard look better]], removing all evidence of the war. Going as far as to move all the Asgardian warriors who died from their honored halls to a dark crypt to be forgotten. While he was right to imprison Hela when her desire for conquest grew insatiable, it was he who set her down that path by waging war on the other realms and making her DaddysLittleVillain in the first place. Despite her megalomania all her arguments are fairly justified.
*** Surtur the Fire Demon makes it clear that he wishes for nothing more than to destroy Asgard and everyone in it. But he ''is'' prophesied to do so during Ragnarok, making it pretty much his job. [[spoiler:This ends up being a good thing in the end. As destroying Asgard is the only way to stop Hela. Making it a tragic but ultimately necessary sacrifice.]]

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** Hela the BigBad of ''Film/ThorRagnarok'' wants to take over Asgard and conquer everything in sight. While her would be followers scoff at her, Asgard only became so powerful and influential because she and Odin already did it once before. With Odin having been was a warmonger before becoming the benevolent king everyone knows him as now. [[WrittenByTheWinners Changing He changed history to make himself and Asgard look better]], removing all evidence of the war. Going and went as far as to move all the Asgardian warriors who died from their honored halls to a dark crypt to be forgotten. While he was right to imprison Hela when her desire for conquest grew insatiable, it was he who set her down that path by waging war on the other realms and making her DaddysLittleVillain in the first place. Despite her megalomania all her arguments are fairly justified.
*** Surtur the Fire Demon makes it clear that he wishes for nothing more than to destroy Asgard and everyone in it. But he ''is'' prophesied to do so during Ragnarok, making it pretty much his job. [[spoiler:This ends up being a good thing in the end. As end, as destroying Asgard is the only way to stop Hela. Making Hela, making it a tragic but ultimately necessary sacrifice.]]



* In ''Franchise/StarWars: Film/AttackOfTheClones'' Count Dooku tries to get Obi-Wan to [[WeCanRuleTogether join him]] by claiming the Republic is beyond saving and needs to be replaced, that it's so corrupt a Sith Lord has been able to seize control of it entirely. While him being said Sith Lord's apprentice ruins his argument somewhat (Republic's corruption mostly come from said Sith Lord and the trade federation might not have went through their war without his back up), he does have a point; the Republic by this time is incapable of preserving law and order even on the more civilized planets, {{Mega Corp}}s have ''legal'' private armies, and most Senators are more interested in preserving their wealth and power than in actually helping their constituents. In the old EU he's ultimately proven right, as the New Republic established after the fall of Palpatine's Empire focuses more on restoring the spirit of the Old Republic instead of just its bureaucracy; in the new Disney universe the restored republic is just as bad as it's predecessor. [[spoiler: In the span of just a few decades, the New Republic falls to the First Order, although it isn't clear to what extent this can be blamed on the leaders of the Republic.]]
* While Lando Calrissian isn't really a villain in ''Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack'', the heroes certainly treat him like one for selling out his friend Han to the Empire. But, as Lando himself says, [[IDidWhatIHadToDo he had no choice but to cooperate.]] Vader explicitly threatens the people of Cloud City, which he administrates. From a deontological perspective, his responsibility is to protect them over the long-estranged friend who he hasn't seen for years and who showed up at his doorstep without warning. Since Vader only needs the Falcon crew to set a trap for Luke, Lando bargains with Vader for the freedom of Leia and Chewie, at significant risk to his own life and people, and is rejected. Then he pulls out all the stops to help rescue Leia, Chewie, and eventually Luke, and they almost manage to save Han, but what does he get in return? A choke from Chewie and a verbal beatdown from Leia before he can explain the situation. He even takes the time to visit Han and Leia in their cell after they were tortured to make sure they're as comfortable as possible, and gets punched in the face for his troubles. [[Film/ReturnOfTheJedi It all turns out ok for him in the end though.]]
* Franchise/StarWars does it again in ''Film/TheLastJedi'': As screwed up as Kylo Ren is, he's got several good points. [[spoiler: One, his uncle ''did'', albeit briefly, consider killing him before he actually did anything wrong. Second, Leia's Resistance is a ragtag bunch with very little chance of surviving at this point. Thirdly, the Jedi and the Sith ''did'' a lot of epic screwing up the galaxy and if he could get Rey on board, they'd have a chance to [[WeCanRuleTogether rule the First Order together]], ''and'' TakeAThirdOption aside from the galaxy-ruining dogma of Jedi and Sith. [[VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublicIITheSithLords Kreia would approve.]] ]]

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* In ''Franchise/StarWars: Film/AttackOfTheClones'' Count Dooku tries to get Obi-Wan to [[WeCanRuleTogether join him]] by claiming the Republic is beyond saving and needs to be replaced, that it's so corrupt a Sith Lord has been able to seize control of it entirely. While him being said Sith Lord's apprentice ruins his argument somewhat (Republic's corruption mostly come from said Sith Lord and the trade federation might not have went through their war without his back up), he does have a point; the Republic by this time is incapable of preserving law and order even on the more civilized planets, {{Mega Corp}}s have ''legal'' private armies, and most Senators are more interested in preserving their wealth and power than in actually helping their constituents. In the old EU he's ultimately proven right, as the New Republic established after the fall of Palpatine's Empire focuses more on restoring the spirit of the Old Republic instead of just its bureaucracy; in the new Disney universe the restored republic is just as bad as it's its predecessor. [[spoiler: In the span of just a few decades, the New Republic falls to the First Order, although it isn't clear to what extent this can be blamed on the leaders of the Republic.]]
* While Lando Calrissian isn't really a villain in ''Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack'', the heroes certainly treat him like one for selling out his friend Han to the Empire. But, as Lando himself says, [[IDidWhatIHadToDo he had no choice but to cooperate.]] cooperate]]. Vader explicitly threatens the people of Cloud City, which he administrates. From a deontological perspective, his responsibility is to protect them over the long-estranged friend who he hasn't seen for years and who showed up at his doorstep without warning. Since Vader only needs the Falcon crew to set a trap for Luke, Lando bargains with Vader for the freedom of Leia and Chewie, at significant risk to his own life and people, and is rejected. Then he pulls out all the stops to help rescue Leia, Chewie, and eventually Luke, and they almost manage to save Han, but what does he get in return? A choke from Chewie and a verbal beatdown from Leia before he can explain the situation. He even takes the time to visit Han and Leia in their cell after they were tortured to make sure they're as comfortable as possible, and gets punched in the face for his troubles. [[Film/ReturnOfTheJedi It all turns out ok for him in the end though.]]
* Franchise/StarWars ''Franchise/StarWars'' does it again in ''Film/TheLastJedi'': As screwed up as Kylo Ren is, he's got several good points. [[spoiler: One, his uncle ''did'', albeit briefly, consider killing him before he actually did anything wrong. Second, Leia's Resistance is a ragtag bunch with very little chance of surviving at this point. Thirdly, the Jedi and the Sith ''did'' a lot of epic screwing up the galaxy and if he could get Rey on board, they'd have a chance to [[WeCanRuleTogether rule the First Order together]], ''and'' TakeAThirdOption aside from the galaxy-ruining dogma of Jedi and Sith. [[VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublicIITheSithLords Kreia would approve.]] ]]



* ''{{Film/Tomorrowland}}'': Governor Nix delivers [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sZnphH7L80 this]] rather convincing speech about humanity's acceptance of the end of the world.
* ''{{Film/Surrogates}}'': Lionel Canter might be resorting to extreme measures to make his point about the 'need' to restore humanity to its roots rather than living virtually through remote-controlled robots, but at the end protagonist Tom Greer acknowledges his point to the extent that he deliberately avoids taking action to save the surrogates from Cantor's planned attack, even if he prevents Cantor's plan from being fatal to all those connected to their surrogates while simply shutting down the controlling network.

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* ''{{Film/Tomorrowland}}'': ''Film/{{Tomorrowland}}'': Governor Nix delivers [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sZnphH7L80 this]] rather convincing speech about humanity's acceptance of the end of the world.
* ''{{Film/Surrogates}}'': ''Film/{{Surrogates}}'': Lionel Canter might be resorting to extreme measures to make his point about the 'need' to restore humanity to its roots rather than living virtually through remote-controlled robots, but at the end protagonist Tom Greer acknowledges his point to the extent that he deliberately avoids taking action to save the surrogates from Cantor's planned attack, even if he prevents Cantor's plan from being fatal to all those connected to their surrogates while simply shutting down the controlling network.



* ''Film/WonderWoman2017'': While [[spoiler:Ares]] does give mankind new ideas for killing each other, he revealed to Wonder Woman that the humans carried out war crimes entirely on their own volition and that [[HumansAreTheRealMonsters humanity is naturally inclined to violence]]. Given that UsefulNotes/WorldWarII and several other conflicts occur after his death and without his direct influence, to say nothing of the CrapsackWorld that is the [=DCEU=], [[spoiler:Ares]] is not entirely wrong. This is acknowledged by Wonder Woman herself in the final scene when she acknowledges that even if she can't change all of humanity, she can still save one human life at a time.

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* ''Film/WonderWoman2017'': While [[spoiler:Ares]] does give mankind new ideas for killing each other, he revealed reveals to Wonder Woman that the humans carried out war crimes entirely on their own volition and that [[HumansAreTheRealMonsters humanity is naturally inclined to violence]]. Given that UsefulNotes/WorldWarII and several other conflicts occur after his death and without his direct influence, to say nothing of the CrapsackWorld that is the [=DCEU=], [[spoiler:Ares]] is not entirely wrong. This is acknowledged by Wonder Woman herself in the final scene when she acknowledges that even if she can't change all of humanity, she can still save one human life at a time.
13th May '18 3:54:53 PM gophergiggles
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** ''Non-Compete Clause'' goes on to add serious validation to Neighsay's objections when Rainbow Dash and Applejack's irresponsible rivalry puts the students in serious danger and nearly results in Yona drowning on a field trip.
1st May '18 3:05:42 PM AdamC
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* ''Film/{{Heavyweights}}'': Tony Perkins is an insane and abusive prick, but before he came along the campers were not making ''any effort'' to lose weight. The fat kids regularly smuggled junk food into the camp just so they wouldn't get thinner. While confiscating it wasn't a particularly nice thing to do, it is part of Tony's job. In fact, the first thing the camp does when [[spoiler: Tony is locked up]], is to celebrate with a junk food binge that makes them all sick. Pat tells them that the point of the camp is to lose weight, get healthy, and to feel better, and that they can do it without acting like Tony.

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* ''Film/{{Heavyweights}}'': Tony Perkins is an insane and abusive prick, but before he came along the campers were not making ''any effort'' to lose weight. The fat kids regularly smuggled junk food into the camp just so they wouldn't get thinner. While confiscating it wasn't a particularly nice thing to do, it is part of Tony's job. In fact, the first thing the camp does when [[spoiler: Tony is locked up]], is to celebrate with a junk food binge that makes them all sick. Pat tells them To the film's credit, it also directly says and shows that the point Tony's drastic, extreme measures toward weight loss are unhealthy also. When Pat is put in charge of the camp is in the third act, they reach a nice middle ground of trying to lose weight, get healthy, weight and to feel better, and that they can do it without acting like Tony. teach kids personal responsibility about their own diets.
1st May '18 2:57:39 PM AdamC
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* In ''ComicBook/UltimateSpiderMan,'' Norman Osborn is arrested by Nick Fury for the crime of intentionally and illegally giving himself super-powers, which is a crime in the Ultimate Universe (the fact that he uses said powers to commit multiple murders doesn't exactly help). But once arrested, Norman (and the other villains SHIELD takes into custody after Peter defeats them) are not provided with legal counsel, representation, or are even allowed any form of contact with the outside world. Nick Fury flat-out says he has no problem detaining them in a SHIELD prison facility indefinitely unless they agree to work for him. Osborn naturally points out that whether they altered their DNA or not, they still have human rights (Fury claims otherwise) and that holding them without trial or even contact with the outside world is highly illegal. All good points, though the moral high ground is lost when coming from Osborn, who inevitably goes on a killing spree every single time he escapes custody. The one time he escaped and used the chance to make a media shitstorm by telling everyone he was illegally detained, it was derailed when he flew into a homicidal rage and burned his own attorney to death.
1st May '18 9:11:50 AM Stormchaser23
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* While Lando Calrissian isn't really a villain in ''Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack'', the heroes certainly treat him like one for selling out his friend Han to the Empire. But, as Lando himself says, [[IDidWhatIHadToDo he had no choice but to cooperate.]] Vader explicitly threatens the people of Cloud City, which he administrates. From a deontological perspective, his responsibility is to protect them over the long-estranged friend who he hasn't seen for years and who showed up at his doorstep without warning. Since Vader only needs the Falcon crew to set a trap for Luke, Lando bargains with Vader for the freedom of Leia and Chewie, at significant risk to his own life and people, and is rejected. Then he pulls out all the stops to help rescue Leia, Chewie, and eventually Luke, and they almost manage to save Han, but what does he get in return? A choke from Chewie and a verbal beatdown from Leia before he can explain the situation. He even takes the time to visit Han and Leia in their cell after they were tortured to make sure they're as comfortable as possible, and gets punched in the face for his troubles. [[Film/ReturnOfTheJedi It all turns out ok for him in the end though.]]
30th Apr '18 10:48:43 PM Morgenthaler
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* In the movie ''Film/Orphan'', even though she [[TheChessmaster instigates a lot of the instances]], Esther actually brings up the very good point that Kate doesn't deserve her family and takes them for granted - Kate and John are unhappily married and it only takes some mild suspicion for both of them to start constantly fighting, Kate because John [[YourCheatingHeart John cheated on her in the past]] and John because [[TheAlcoholic Kate not only had a serious drinking problem]], but she [[spoiler: endangered her daughter's life]] because of it. They are also pretty lazy, indulgent parents, [[SpoiledBrat spoiling Daniel rotten and making incredibly feeble efforts to curb his bad behaviour]], as well as never agreeing with each other over how to appropriately deal with Esther.

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* In the movie ''Film/Orphan'', ''Film/{{Orphan}}'', even though she [[TheChessmaster instigates a lot of the instances]], Esther actually brings up the very good point that Kate doesn't deserve her family and takes them for granted - Kate and John are unhappily married and it only takes some mild suspicion for both of them to start constantly fighting, Kate because John [[YourCheatingHeart John cheated on her in the past]] and John because [[TheAlcoholic Kate not only had a serious drinking problem]], but she [[spoiler: endangered her daughter's life]] because of it. They are also pretty lazy, indulgent parents, [[SpoiledBrat spoiling Daniel rotten and making incredibly feeble efforts to curb his bad behaviour]], as well as never agreeing with each other over how to appropriately deal with Esther.
30th Apr '18 5:48:37 PM gophergiggles
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** Chancellor Neighsay's [[FantasticRacism raging prejudice]] against non-ponies drives him to close the School of Friendship, but considering everything that went on during his inspection and that some of his concerns regarding security and safety are valid, he's not at all wrong when he says this:
--> '''Neighsay:''' Irresponsible teachers, students skipping class, endangering ponies! Your school is a disaster.
30th Apr '18 4:24:21 PM TheLuckyCat
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* In the movie ''Film/Orphan'', even though she [[TheChassmaster instigates a lot of the instances]], Esther actually brings up the very good point that Kate doesn't deserve her family and takes them for granted - Kate and John are UnhappilyMarried and it only takes some mild suspicion for both of them to start constantly fighting, Kate because John [[YourCheatingHeart John cheated on her in the past]] and John because [[TheAlcoholic Kate not only had a serious drinking problem]], but she endangered her daughter's life because of it. They are also pretty lazy, indulgent parents, spoiling Daniel rotten and making incredibly feeble efforts to curb his bad behaviour, as well as never agreeing with each other over how to appropriately deal with Esther.

to:

* In the movie ''Film/Orphan'', even though she [[TheChassmaster [[TheChessmaster instigates a lot of the instances]], Esther actually brings up the very good point that Kate doesn't deserve her family and takes them for granted - Kate and John are UnhappilyMarried unhappily married and it only takes some mild suspicion for both of them to start constantly fighting, Kate because John [[YourCheatingHeart John cheated on her in the past]] and John because [[TheAlcoholic Kate not only had a serious drinking problem]], but she [[spoiler: endangered her daughter's life life]] because of it. They are also pretty lazy, indulgent parents, [[SpoiledBrat spoiling Daniel rotten and making incredibly feeble efforts to curb his bad behaviour, behaviour]], as well as never agreeing with each other over how to appropriately deal with Esther.
30th Apr '18 4:17:25 PM TheLuckyCat
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* In the movie ''Film/Orphan'', even though she [[TheChassmaster instigates a lot of the instances]], Esther actually brings up the very good point that Kate doesn't deserve her family and takes them for granted - Kate and John are UnhappilyMarried and it only takes some mild suspicion for both of them to start constantly fighting, Kate because John [[YourCheatingHeart John cheated on her in the past]] and John because [[TheAlcoholic Kate not only had a serious drinking problem]], but she endangered her daughter's life because of it. They are also pretty lazy, indulgent parents, spoiling Daniel rotten and making incredibly feeble efforts to curb his bad behaviour, as well as never agreeing with each other over how to appropriately deal with Esther.
30th Apr '18 2:10:12 PM Ccook1956
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* In ''Disney/WreckItRalph'', although it's quite clear [[spoiler: King Candy / Turbo]] is lying his ass off and has his own reason for wanting to keep Vanelope from racing, being worried that the players might assume the game is broken ([[TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt which could result in it being unplugged]]) if they witness her glitching is a valid concern, especially since that's exactly why Turbo Time was unplugged. [[spoiler: His point is undermined somewhat by him being the ''cause'' of her glitching from messing with the source code in the first place, but still valid. Luckily, the opposite holds true and gamers consider Vanelope's glitching a GoodBadBug rather than a GameBreakingBug, since it can be used to [[GameBreaker pass other racers more easily]].]]

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* In ''Disney/WreckItRalph'', although it's quite clear [[spoiler: King Candy / Turbo]] is lying his ass off and has his own reason for wanting to keep Vanelope Vanellope from racing, being worried that the players might assume the game is broken ([[TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt which could result in it being unplugged]]) if they witness her glitching is a valid concern, especially since that's exactly why Turbo Time was unplugged. [[spoiler: His point is undermined somewhat by him being the ''cause'' of her glitching from messing with the source code in the first place, but still valid. Luckily, the opposite holds true and gamers consider Vanelope's Vanellope's glitching a GoodBadBug rather than a GameBreakingBug, since it can be used to [[GameBreaker pass other racers more easily]].]]
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