History Main / VillainHasaPoint

11th Oct '17 1:52:42 PM Ferot_Dreadnaught
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** Loki had a legitimate point in ''Film/{{Thor}}'', in that his brother ''wasn't'' ready for the throne. It is only because Loki let the frost giants into Asgard, leading to Thor being banished by Odin for recklessly seeking revenge against them, that Thor learns humility and grows into being a worthy future king and protector of the Nine Realms. A deleted scene also shows that, by that point, Loki is made the legitimate king of Asgard while Odin sleeps.
** In ''Film/ThorTheDarkWorld'', Thor has emotionally matured to the point that he openly states Loki was right, and even more, Thor doesn't have (nor wants to have) the ability to be as ruthless as the king of Asgard sometimes has to be.

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** Loki had a legitimate point in ''Film/{{Thor}}'', in that his brother ''wasn't'' ready for the throne. It is only because Loki let the frost giants into Asgard, leading to Thor being banished by Odin for recklessly seeking revenge against them, that Thor learns humility and grows into being a worthy future king and protector of the Nine Realms. A deleted scene also shows that, by that point, Loki is made the legitimate king of Asgard while Odin sleeps.
**
sleeps. In ''Film/ThorTheDarkWorld'', Thor has emotionally matured to the point that he openly states Loki was right, and even more, Thor doesn't have (nor wants to have) the ability to be as ruthless as the king of Asgard sometimes has to be.
11th Oct '17 1:50:21 PM IdumeanPatriot
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* ''Literature/{{Victoria}}'' is unusual for placing an intelligent ''[[VillainByDefault Nazi true believer]]'' in this role. Captain Halsing's ideology is, of course, itself described as rather unsympathetic, but he nonetheless makes valid points when he exposes the inconsistencies and flaws in the heroes' own right wing libertarian-ish beliefs.
10th Oct '17 6:51:59 PM TheNerevarine
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** In Season 7, Cersei Lannister is able to rally her allies against Daenerys Targaryen due to her bringing a massive Dothraki horde to Westeros. While Cersei is a highly corrupt despot whose aim is to remain in power by any means necessary, the fear and hate of the Dothraki is justified: up until Daenerys took control of them, they were a savage and extremely misogynistic barbarians (one Dothaki widow reminisced how her husband brutalized her after she gave birth to a daughter - and '''she was 12 at the time!''). Even though Daenerys has noble intentions to liberate Westeros from the Lannister's iron grip, the reputation of her own forces is far more feared than that of the Ironborn, the local Westerosi raiders.
3rd Oct '17 4:38:16 PM MarcusSLazarus
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* ''{{Film/Surrogates}}'': Lionel Canter might be resorting to extreme measures to make his point about the 'need' to restore humanity to its roots rather than living virtually through remote-controlled robots, but at the end protagonist Tom Greer acknowledges his point to the extent that he deliberately avoids taking action to save the surrogates from Cantor's planned attack, even if he prevents Cantor's plan from being fatal to all those connected to their surrogates while simply shutting down the controlling network.
3rd Oct '17 3:15:34 AM Morgenthaler
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* In the ''Series/{{Arrow}}'' episode [[Recap/ArrowS5E7Vigilante "Vigilante"]], while the titular VigilanteMan is clearly a KnightTemplar, most of Team Arrow, a group mostly comprised of morally grey [[AntiHero anti-heroes]], support his actions at first, until his actions result in civilian casualties that Vigilante [[KickTheDog dismisses as "collateral damage"]]. [[Comicbook/GreenArrow Oliver]], while being against Vigilante from the start, has to concede Vigilante's point that [[WretchedHive Star City]] is worse than ever, and Green Arrow's [[ThouShaltNotKill gentler]] methods aren't necessarily getting the job done.

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* ''Series/{{Arrow}}'':
**
In the ''Series/{{Arrow}}'' episode [[Recap/ArrowS5E7Vigilante "Vigilante"]], while the titular VigilanteMan is clearly a KnightTemplar, most of Team Arrow, a group mostly comprised of morally grey [[AntiHero anti-heroes]], support his actions at first, until his actions result in civilian casualties that Vigilante [[KickTheDog dismisses as "collateral damage"]]. [[Comicbook/GreenArrow Oliver]], while being against Vigilante from the start, has to concede Vigilante's point that [[WretchedHive Star City]] is worse than ever, and Green Arrow's [[ThouShaltNotKill gentler]] methods aren't necessarily getting the job done.
2nd Oct '17 5:58:28 PM kquinn0830
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** ''Film/SpiderManHomecoming'': When Spider-Man confronts Adrian Toomes/The Vulture during the climax, Toomes tries to get Spidey to back off by telling him that rich and powerful people like Tony Stark and the government don't care about the little guy and he had to do what he could to succeed. From what we saw during the film, Toomes is absolutely right. The guy invested a lot of money into his cleanup job in the aftermath of [[Film/TheAvengers the Chitauri invasion]], only for Stark and the government's new Damage Control agency to swoop in, terminate his contract without even reimbursing him, and mock him over it. He just wanted to support his family and, being denied the chance to do so legally and with his back up against the wall, had little choice but to resort to illegally salvaging alien tech for personal gain. Peter acknowledges he has a point and [[spoiler:it's part of the reason why he declines an invitation to join the Avengers and stick to helping out the regular people.]]

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** ''Film/SpiderManHomecoming'': When Spider-Man confronts Adrian Toomes/The Vulture during the climax, Toomes tries to get Spidey to back off by telling him that rich and powerful people like Tony Stark and the government don't care about the little guy and he had to do what he could to succeed. From what we saw during the film, Toomes is absolutely right. The guy invested a lot of money into his cleanup job in the aftermath of [[Film/TheAvengers the Chitauri invasion]], only for Stark and the government's new Damage Control agency to swoop in, terminate his contract without even reimbursing him, and mock him over it. He just wanted to support his family and, being denied the chance to do so legally and with his back up against the wall, had little choice but to resort to illegally salvaging alien tech for personal gain. Additionally, when Peter discovered what he was doing and tried to warn Stark, Stark dismissed it as below the Avengers pay grade and tried to have the regular law enforcement take care of it, with disastrous results. Peter acknowledges he has a point and [[spoiler:it's part of the reason why he declines an invitation to join the Avengers and stick to helping out the regular people.]]
2nd Oct '17 5:56:30 PM kquinn0830
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* In ''Film/DoctorStrange2016'', the main character seems to be almost persuaded by the villain Kaecilius and his promise of eternal life for everybody. In fact, actor Mads Mikkelsen playing Kaecilius perceived his character as a hero: "The key to any good villain, which I think was very clear from the beginning of this journey, is that they have a point. It's not completely crazy what they're saying. That is a point, even in Doctor Strange's eyes he does believe I have a point (...)". A tie-in comic shows that Kaecilius is driven by personal experience, having lost a family of his own.



* Loki had a legitimate point in ''Film/{{Thor}}'', in that his brother ''wasn't'' ready for the throne. It is only because Loki let the frost giants into Asgard, leading to Thor being banished by Odin for recklessly seeking revenge against them, that Thor learns humility and grows into being a worthy future king and protector of the Nine Realms. A deleted scene also shows that, by that point, Loki is made the legitimate king of Asgard while Odin sleeps.
* In ''Film/ThorTheDarkWorld'', Thor has emotionally matured to the point that he openly states Loki was right, and even more, Thor doesn't have (nor wants to have) the ability to be as ruthless as the king of Asgard sometimes has to be.


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* Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse:
** Loki had a legitimate point in ''Film/{{Thor}}'', in that his brother ''wasn't'' ready for the throne. It is only because Loki let the frost giants into Asgard, leading to Thor being banished by Odin for recklessly seeking revenge against them, that Thor learns humility and grows into being a worthy future king and protector of the Nine Realms. A deleted scene also shows that, by that point, Loki is made the legitimate king of Asgard while Odin sleeps.
** In ''Film/ThorTheDarkWorld'', Thor has emotionally matured to the point that he openly states Loki was right, and even more, Thor doesn't have (nor wants to have) the ability to be as ruthless as the king of Asgard sometimes has to be.
** In ''Film/DoctorStrange2016'', the main character seems to be almost persuaded by the villain Kaecilius and his promise of eternal life for everybody. In fact, actor Mads Mikkelsen playing Kaecilius perceived his character as a hero: "The key to any good villain, which I think was very clear from the beginning of this journey, is that they have a point. It's not completely crazy what they're saying. That is a point, even in Doctor Strange's eyes he does believe I have a point (...)". A tie-in comic shows that Kaecilius is driven by personal experience, having lost a family of his own.
** ''Film/SpiderManHomecoming'': When Spider-Man confronts Adrian Toomes/The Vulture during the climax, Toomes tries to get Spidey to back off by telling him that rich and powerful people like Tony Stark and the government don't care about the little guy and he had to do what he could to succeed. From what we saw during the film, Toomes is absolutely right. The guy invested a lot of money into his cleanup job in the aftermath of [[Film/TheAvengers the Chitauri invasion]], only for Stark and the government's new Damage Control agency to swoop in, terminate his contract without even reimbursing him, and mock him over it. He just wanted to support his family and, being denied the chance to do so legally and with his back up against the wall, had little choice but to resort to illegally salvaging alien tech for personal gain. Peter acknowledges he has a point and [[spoiler:it's part of the reason why he declines an invitation to join the Avengers and stick to helping out the regular people.]]
28th Sep '17 7:27:13 AM BeerBaron
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* In ''VideoGame/TheElderScrollsIIIMorrowind'', [[BigBad Dagoth]] [[PhysicalGod Ur]] is pretty well established as a particularly homicidal WellIntentionedExtremist once you look past the [[CorruptChurch Tribunal Temple]] [[BlatantLies dogma]], but it goes even further when you look at his hatred of outlanders. The Tribunal pretty much set themselves as undisputed rulers that freely encourage slavery and look down on the native ashlanders. And the Imperials are arguably not much better, especially if one plays this game after playing ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsVSkyrim Skyrim]]'', which showed them at their worst (if you play as a Stormcloak).

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* ''Franchise/TheElderScrolls''
**
In ''VideoGame/TheElderScrollsIIIMorrowind'', ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsIIIMorrowind Morrowind]]'', [[BigBad Dagoth]] [[PhysicalGod Ur]] is pretty well established as a particularly homicidal WellIntentionedExtremist once you look past the [[CorruptChurch Tribunal Temple]] [[BlatantLies dogma]], but it goes even further when you look at his hatred of outlanders. The Tribunal pretty much set themselves as undisputed rulers that freely encourage slavery and look down on the native ashlanders. And the Imperials are arguably not much better, especially if one plays this game after playing ashlanders.
** In
''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsVSkyrim Skyrim]]'', the [[ANaziByAnyOtherName Thalmor]] are an extremist [[OurElvesAreBetter Altmeri]] religious sect that militarized into a StateSec. They play up the old Altmeri religious belief that the creation of the mortal world (Mundus) was a cruel trick played by a JerkassGod on their divine ancestors, which showed forced them at to experience mortal suffering and death. They believe that if they can [[OmnicidalManiac unmake Mundus]], it will [[AscendToAHigherPlaneOfExistence return them to a state of pre-creation divinity]]. Unfortunately, [[FeelingOppressedByTheirExistence the very idea of Men]] inherently stabilizes the Mundus, and erasing this idea requires eliminating the DeityOfHumanOrigin, Talos. By [[IllegalReligion banning his worship]], they are hoping to [[GodNeedsPrayerBadly weaken]] and eventually [[KillTheGod eliminate]] him, allowing them to act on their worst (if you play plans to unmake the world. If (and that is a big "if") they were to actually succeed in this plan, there is some evidence that they may be correct and the souls of mortals would return to a state of pre-creation divinity, free from all the mortal suffering, loss, and limitation of Mundus. There is also supporting evidence that this is ''impossible'', as due to the actions of Lorkhan (the aforementioned Jerkass God), there can presumably never again be the true stasis of pre-creation again. There is also the belief that this state of "divinity" (unchanging stasis) is [[HellOfAheaven actually the "prison"]], and Mundus was the escape from that, which would make them more of a Stormcloak).NotSoWellIntentionedExtremist.
26th Sep '17 9:49:07 PM infernape612
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* In ''ComicBook/AvatarTheLastAirbenderThePromise'', Zuko's ArchnemesisDad Ozai proves to be a very competent judge of Kuei's character during the Fire Nation colony crisis, and gives Zuko sound advice that basically boils down to "whatever you do, have the conviction to back it up".



* WesternAnimation/CodenameKidsNextDoor''. In "Operation FOUNTAIN" the Delightful Children want to destroy the Fountain of Youth, claiming that if news of it spread, children would be tempted to use it to stay young forever. Well, their overall goal is far from noble, but they may have something. The Fountain's effect is temporary, and Leona has used it so much that her childhood has become something of an addictive drug that she can't shake. Even if it was not, the idea of eternal youth has downsides that [[WhoWantsToLiveForever they don't seem to consider]].
* Xanatos in ''{{WesternAnimation/Gargoyles}}'' is nothing if not pragmatic, so this trope is particularly evident when the heroes are... not so pragmatic. Most notably, in the middle of the "City of Stone" four-parter, when Goliath is about to attack Xanatos for helping Demona curse Manhattan, Xanatos asks Goliath "Do you want vengeance, or a solution?"

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* WesternAnimation/CodenameKidsNextDoor''.''WesternAnimation/CodenameKidsNextDoor''. In "Operation FOUNTAIN" the Delightful Children want to destroy the Fountain of Youth, claiming that if news of it spread, children would be tempted to use it to stay young forever. Well, their overall goal is far from noble, but they may have something. The Fountain's effect is temporary, and Leona has used it so much that her childhood has become something of an addictive drug that she can't shake. Even if it was not, the idea of eternal youth has downsides that [[WhoWantsToLiveForever they don't seem to consider]].
* Xanatos in ''{{WesternAnimation/Gargoyles}}'' ''WesternAnimation/{{Gargoyles}}'' is nothing if not pragmatic, so this trope is particularly evident when the heroes are... not so pragmatic. Most notably, in the middle of the "City of Stone" four-parter, when Goliath is about to attack Xanatos for helping Demona curse Manhattan, Xanatos asks Goliath "Do you want vengeance, or a solution?"
22nd Sep '17 1:40:08 PM Silverblade2
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* Often the case with SelfDemonstrating/{{Magneto}}, and the main reason why he [[HeelFaceRevolvingDoor so often swings between]] being an enemy or an ally of the ComicBook/XMen, and even as an enemy he seldom completely loses the sympathy and grudging respect of both the X-Men and the audience. This carries over to [[Film/XMen the films]], where it is indeed usually humanity (or, at least, ''a'' human), who escalates the human-mutant conflict, but his possibly-justified retaliation crosses the line by targeting innocents as well as the guilty.

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* Often the case with SelfDemonstrating/{{Magneto}}, ComicBook/{{Magneto}}, and the main reason why he [[HeelFaceRevolvingDoor so often swings between]] being an enemy or an ally of the ComicBook/XMen, and even as an enemy he seldom completely loses the sympathy and grudging respect of both the X-Men and the audience. This carries over to [[Film/XMen the films]], where it is indeed usually humanity (or, at least, ''a'' human), who escalates the human-mutant conflict, but his possibly-justified retaliation crosses the line by targeting innocents as well as the guilty.



-->'''Linkara''': I hate to agree with a villain, but ''SelfDemonstrating/TheJoker'' is ''right''!

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-->'''Linkara''': I hate to agree with a villain, but ''SelfDemonstrating/TheJoker'' ''ComicBook/TheJoker'' is ''right''!
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