History Main / UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans

18th Jun '17 10:38:13 AM flodoris
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** In the actual manga, Pain plans to end all war. He wants to achieve this by harnessing the power of the tailed beasts to make a weapon of mass destruction that could destroy a country. If a war was started with one side lacking ninja, they would turn to Akatsuki, who would wipe out the entire opposing nation. After this, most countries would be too scared to start a war. However, [[SubvertedTrope he then reveals an even more cynical expectation]] that bring it toward DystopiaJustifiesTheMeans: Pain knows that people will eventually forget about all that and just go back to fighting. Planning to [[AbusivePrecursors leave it for future generations]], Pain believes that the weapon will allow future civilizations to experience the terror of destruction themselves and revert to peace for short periods before doing it [[HumansAreBastards all over again]].]]
** [[spoiler:Zig-Zagging with [[AssimilationPlot "The Moon's Eye Plan"]] whose aim dive all people in eternal Genjutsu in order to reach peace in the world. [[BigBadDuumvirate Madara and Obito]] really want to bring peace to the world and [[WellIntentionedExtremist thinks that their plan is the only way it can happen]]. But at the same time as they want bring peace they also doing it for their own purposes: Madara more concerned to implement the plan independently since thinks that '''[[ItsAllAboutMe only he]]''' is worthy to lead all in the infinite illusion. At the same time as Obito wants to create his ideal world where [[TheLostLenore Rin]] and the other his teammates are alive so that [[IRejectYourReality he could escape from reality.]]]]

to:

** In the actual manga, Pain plans Pain's plan to end all war. He war turns out subverted example. First he claimed that wants to achieve this utopias by harnessing the power of the tailed beasts to make a weapon of mass destruction that could destroy a country. If a war was started with one side lacking ninja, they would turn to Akatsuki, who would wipe out the entire opposing nation. After this, most countries would be too scared to start a war. However, [[SubvertedTrope he then reveals an even more cynical expectation]] that bring it toward DystopiaJustifiesTheMeans: DystopiaJustifiesTheMeans and subverts UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans: Pain knows that people will eventually forget about all that and just go back to fighting. Planning to [[AbusivePrecursors leave it for future generations]], Pain believes that the weapon will allow future civilizations to experience the terror of destruction themselves and revert to peace for short periods before doing it [[HumansAreBastards all over again]].]]
again]].
** [[spoiler:Zig-Zagging [[spoiler:Zig-Zagged with [[AssimilationPlot "The Moon's Eye Plan"]] whose aim dive all people in eternal Genjutsu in order to reach peace in the world. [[BigBadDuumvirate Madara and Obito]] really want to bring peace to the world and [[WellIntentionedExtremist thinks that their plan is the only way it can happen]]. But at the same time as they want bring peace they also doing it for their own selfish purposes: Madara more concerned to implement the plan independently since thinks that '''[[ItsAllAboutMe only he]]''' is worthy to lead guide all of people in the infinite illusion. At the same time as Obito wants to create his ideal world where [[TheLostLenore Rin]] and the other his teammates are alive so that [[IRejectYourReality he could escape from reality.]]]]
3rd Jun '17 1:23:03 AM thatmadork
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

* ''VideoGame/SupremeCommander'': The driving motive of [[ChurchMilitant the Aeon]] and [[SufficientlyAdvancedAlien the Seraphim]] is "accept the peace and guidance of The Way or be destroyed".
2nd Jun '17 8:03:28 PM thatother1dude
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** In the actual manga, [[spoiler:Pain plans to end all war. He wants to achieve this by harnessing the power of the tailed beasts to make a weapon of mass destruction that could destroy a country. If a war was started with one side lacking ninja, they would turn to Akatsuki, who would wipe out the entire opposing nation. After this, most countries would be too scared to start a war]].
*** It's also a partial subversion: [[spoiler:Pain knows that people will eventually forget about all that and just go back to fighting. Planning to [[AbusivePrecursors leave it for future generations]], Pain believes that the weapon will allow future civilizations to experience the terror of destruction themselves and revert to peace for short periods before doing it [[HumansAreBastards all over again]].]]

to:

** In the actual manga, [[spoiler:Pain Pain plans to end all war. He wants to achieve this by harnessing the power of the tailed beasts to make a weapon of mass destruction that could destroy a country. If a war was started with one side lacking ninja, they would turn to Akatsuki, who would wipe out the entire opposing nation. After this, most countries would be too scared to start a war]].
*** It's also a partial subversion: [[spoiler:Pain
war. However, [[SubvertedTrope he then reveals an even more cynical expectation]] that bring it toward DystopiaJustifiesTheMeans: Pain knows that people will eventually forget about all that and just go back to fighting. Planning to [[AbusivePrecursors leave it for future generations]], Pain believes that the weapon will allow future civilizations to experience the terror of destruction themselves and revert to peace for short periods before doing it [[HumansAreBastards all over again]].]]
9th May '17 3:43:29 AM Shadowgazer
Is there an issue? Send a Message


For the FallenHero, KnightTemplar, DarkMessiah, TotalitarianUtilitarian, WellIntentionedExtremist, and other {{visionary villain}}s, however, that's not the case. Obsession with the idea of {{Utopia}} will convince them that it ''is'' possible, and almost guarantees a FaceHeelTurn as they become willing to do ''[[HumanSacrifice anything]]'' to obtain their {{Ambition|IsEvil}} of Paradise.

They will plan to TakeOverTheWorld, use [[PoweredByAForsakenChild the heart of an orphan]] or an ArtifactOfDoom, steal the CosmicKeystone, commit [[TheEvilsOfFreeWill mass brainwashing]], [[DealWithTheDevil sell himself to higher powers]] or unleash the [[TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt Apocalypse]] so that they can destroy all resistance and usher in ''[[InTheirOwnImage their own]]'' ideals for Utopia. They will operate under the assumption that this wonderful new world has them at the top, free to exert a [[AntiVillain benevolent]] or iron-fisted regime as they will. Using logic that would make Machiavelli blush, they reason that every sacrifice and atrocity is worth The Greater Good, putting the ''Well Intentioned'' in ''WellIntentionedExtremist''.

to:

For the FallenHero, KnightTemplar, DarkMessiah, TotalitarianUtilitarian, WellIntentionedExtremist, and other {{visionary villain}}s, however, that's not the case. Obsession with the idea of {{Utopia}} will convince them that it ''is'' possible, and almost guarantees a FaceHeelTurn as they become willing to do ''[[HumanSacrifice anything]]'' to obtain their {{Ambition|IsEvil}} of Paradise.

They will plan to TakeOverTheWorld, use [[PoweredByAForsakenChild the heart of an orphan]] or an ArtifactOfDoom, steal the CosmicKeystone, commit [[TheEvilsOfFreeWill mass brainwashing]], [[DealWithTheDevil sell himself to higher powers]] or unleash the [[TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt Apocalypse]] so that they can destroy all resistance and usher in ''[[InTheirOwnImage their own]]'' ideals for Utopia. They will operate under the assumption that this wonderful new world has them at the top, free to exert a [[AntiVillain benevolent]] or iron-fisted regime as they will. Using logic that would make Machiavelli blush, they reason that every sacrifice and atrocity is worth The Greater Good, putting the ''Well Intentioned'' in ''WellIntentionedExtremist''. \n The KnightTemplar often claims this to himself before succumbing to the decidedly less benevolent DespotismJustifiesTheMeans.



* ''WesternAnimation/{{Antz}}'':
-->'''[[GeneralRipper General Mandible]]:''' Don't you understand? It's for the good of the Colony!\\
'''Z:''' What are you saying? We ''are'' the Colony!!
** A few lines later, Mandible announces that [[UsefulNotes/LetatCestMoi he is the colony]].



** Some fanfic writers attribute a more [[TheChessmaster cunning and under-handed]] version of this to Dumbledore, with him either planning to sacrifice Harry "for the greater good" or molding him into the perfect leader to create the future Dumbledore had planned out. Considering revelations in the seventh book, it's not a difficult leap in reasoning.

to:

** Some fanfic writers attribute a more [[TheChessmaster cunning and under-handed]] version of this to Dumbledore, with him either planning to sacrifice Harry "for the greater good" or molding him into the perfect leader to create the future Dumbledore had planned out. Considering revelations in the seventh book, it's not a difficult leap in reasoning. Though he did that after [[spoiler: he learned that Harry was protected by his mother's blood and his vision for the future world was primarily one without the Death Eaters reign of terror]].



* The main character of ''Literature/{{Perfume}}'' envisions a world where everyone bows to his god-like sense of smell, and he's willing to kill anyone he has to, without remorse, to get it. He is on the verge of succeeding when he gets a taste of what it would be like, and decides that it's not what he wanted after all.
9th May '17 1:41:30 AM Shadowgazer
Is there an issue? Send a Message


The first and least despicable trope in the unholy trinity of villainous objectives, Utopia Justifies the Means is where the goal of the BigBad is the creation of a {{Utopia}} in the long run, a better world for everyone as a whole (or at least "better" in the villain's eyes), no matter what the cost.

to:

The first and least despicable trope in the unholy trinity of villainous objectives, Utopia Justifies the Means is where the goal of the BigBad is the creation of a {{Utopia}} in the long run, a better world for everyone as a whole (or at least "better" for them in the villain's eyes), no matter what the cost.
30th Apr '17 1:50:01 PM Az_Tech341
Is there an issue? Send a Message


It's a place built out of dreams and starlight; the name "{{Utopia}}" is a somewhat poignant pun by its author, blending the Greek words for Good Place (eutopia) and "No Place" (outopia), and despite (or perhaps because of) its unattainable nature, it has endured in myth and dreams since. While dreaming about what it would be like is harmless (like how [[FanService topless glamour model volleyball]] would be the national sport, [[CoolAndUnusualPunishment bureaucrats would work recycling paper]], there's NoPoverty and ice cream is [[AppliedPhlebotinum just as delicious with none of the calories]]... mmmm...), it's just a dream based on nothing more solid than wishful thinking.

to:

It's a place built out of dreams and starlight; the name "{{Utopia}}" is a somewhat poignant pun by its author, blending the Greek words for Good Place "Good Place" (eutopia) and "No Place" (outopia), and despite (or perhaps because of) its unattainable nature, it has endured in myth and dreams since. While dreaming about what it would be like is harmless (like how [[FanService topless glamour model volleyball]] would be the national sport, [[CoolAndUnusualPunishment bureaucrats would work recycling paper]], there's NoPoverty NoPoverty, and ice cream is [[AppliedPhlebotinum just as delicious with none of the calories]]... mmmm...), it's just a dream based on nothing more solid than wishful thinking.



When it comes to different kinds of extremists, a TotalitarianUtilitarian is far more likely to think this way, while a PrinciplesZealot is more likely to believe that Utopia Justifies Nothing.

Heroes and the audience will be faced with the philosophical conundrum that maybe TheExtremistWasRight and the world is in truth a CrapsackWorld that needs a total renovation like what the villain says, but is the renovation worth sacrificing billions? In more morally ambiguous situations, the "means" might not be catastrophically destructive, all it takes is a [[DealWithTheDevil "small", inconsequential sacrifice]] when TheNeedsOfTheMany outweigh the needs of the few. Say, selling forsaken little girls to alien slavers in exchange for technological advancements for mankind as a whole, or the daily ritual slaughter of criminals to appease the gods and ensure prosperity, or the ever popular TheSingularity LotusEaterMachine AssimilationPlot where suffering does not exist. If his ideals guarantee the happiness, survival, civilization and/or progress of the human race, isn't it worth it? The Heroes may decide that total demolition is not the answer, and it's better to make the most out of what you have while allowing humanity to decide for itself.

to:

When it comes to different kinds of extremists, a TotalitarianUtilitarian is far more likely to think this way, while a PrinciplesZealot is more likely to believe that Utopia Justifies Nothing.

justifies nothing.

Heroes and the audience will be faced with the philosophical conundrum that maybe TheExtremistWasRight and the world is in truth a CrapsackWorld that needs a total renovation like what the villain says, but is the renovation worth sacrificing billions? In more morally ambiguous situations, the "means" might not be catastrophically destructive, all it takes is a [[DealWithTheDevil "small", inconsequential sacrifice]] when TheNeedsOfTheMany outweigh the needs of the few. Say, selling forsaken little girls to alien slavers in exchange for technological advancements for mankind as a whole, or the daily ritual slaughter of criminals to appease the gods and ensure prosperity, or the ever popular TheSingularity LotusEaterMachine AssimilationPlot where suffering does not exist. If his ideals guarantee the happiness, survival, civilization civilization, and/or progress of the human race, isn't it worth it? The Heroes may decide that total demolition is not the answer, and it's better to make the most out of what you have while allowing humanity to decide for itself.
27th Apr '17 4:31:41 PM KizunaTallis
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** Subverted in ''Fanfic/TheConversionBureauTheOtherSideOfTheSpectrum''. The "utopia" itself is pretty much impossible, as Equestria is clearly falling into disorder, and the converted humans (newfoals) are little more than brainwashed robots, but the subversion is [[spoiler:TCB!Celestia doesn't really believe in her goals, and has been brainwashed into carrying out these heinous acts by the [[ArtifactOfDoom Bag of]] [[BiggerBad Tirek]], in its quest to [[DisproportionateRetribution destroy humanity]]]].

to:

** Subverted in ''Fanfic/TheConversionBureauTheOtherSideOfTheSpectrum''. The "utopia" itself the Solar Empire is pretty much impossible, trying to create is nothing but a farce, as Equestria is clearly falling into disorder, and the converted humans (newfoals) are little more than brainwashed robots, but the subversion is [[spoiler:TCB!Celestia doesn't really believe in her goals, and has been brainwashed into carrying out these heinous acts by the [[ArtifactOfDoom Bag of]] [[BiggerBad Tirek]], in its quest to [[DisproportionateRetribution destroy humanity]]]].humanity]]]]. One particular villain [[KnownOnlyByTheirNickname known only as "Weaver"]] however, fully believes in this, and she has killed a lot of people in her pursuit of this goal.
23rd Apr '17 7:10:42 PM nombretomado
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** This is a common theme in the ''Franchise/TalesSeries'' games. This pops up again in ''VideoGame/TalesOfTheAbyss'', in which the BigBad seeks to kill everyone on the planet and replace them with clones in an attempt to ScrewDestiny. It makes sense in context. The whole world was living a predetermined existence, consulting a prophecy even for things such as what to eat for dinner.

to:

** This is a common theme in the ''Franchise/TalesSeries'' ''VideoGame/TalesSeries'' games. This pops up again in ''VideoGame/TalesOfTheAbyss'', in which the BigBad seeks to kill everyone on the planet and replace them with clones in an attempt to ScrewDestiny. It makes sense in context. The whole world was living a predetermined existence, consulting a prophecy even for things such as what to eat for dinner.
9th Apr '17 10:57:56 AM BrainstormIsAnIdiot
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* In ''Fanfic/AGemInTheRough, the "Mr. 5 Pair" and Miss Goldenweek have joined Baroque Works in the hopes of forming a utopia of their own (as with the canon version of ''Manga/OnePiece''). However, their belief in creating a perfect military state is shaken due to their meeting WesternAnimation/StevenUniverse, who explains to them just why it is a terrible idea and sets them up for a FaceHeelTurn against Crocodile and their former organization.

to:

* In ''Fanfic/AGemInTheRough, ''Fanfic/AGemInTheRough,'' the "Mr. 5 Pair" and Miss Goldenweek have joined Baroque Works in the hopes of forming a utopia of their own (as with the canon version of ''Manga/OnePiece''). However, their belief in creating a perfect military state is shaken due to their meeting WesternAnimation/StevenUniverse, who explains to them just why it is a terrible idea and sets them up for a FaceHeelTurn against Crocodile and their former organization.
9th Apr '17 10:57:07 AM BrainstormIsAnIdiot
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

* In ''Fanfic/AGemInTheRough, the "Mr. 5 Pair" and Miss Goldenweek have joined Baroque Works in the hopes of forming a utopia of their own (as with the canon version of ''Manga/OnePiece''). However, their belief in creating a perfect military state is shaken due to their meeting WesternAnimation/StevenUniverse, who explains to them just why it is a terrible idea and sets them up for a FaceHeelTurn against Crocodile and their former organization.
-->'''Steven Universe''': "Why do you listen to him?! Is your utopia really going to matter if you got it through violence and death?! You are better than that!"
This list shows the last 10 events of 230. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans