History Main / TheRevolutionWillNotBeCivilized

21st Jun '17 11:31:19 AM BeerBaron
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** The 2nd Era Stros M'Kai uprising saw a group of [[MasterSwordsman Redguards]] capture the strategically important island of Stros M'Kai from Imperial forces while slaying the (admittedly corrupt) Imperial Governor. The Septim RisingEmpire was forced to make several concessions to Hammerfell in order to regain the island and restore order.
16th Jun '17 12:06:48 PM BeerBaron
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** The Reachmen, also known as "Witchmen", are the native Bretons of "the Reach," a region along the border between High Rock and Skyrim. They are a primitive and tribal people, led by shamans, who practice elements of [[{{Druid}} nature]] and [[OurGodsAreDifferent Daedra]] worship, primarily Hircine. From the time of the Alessian Empire (in the mid-1st Era) through the 4th era, they've maintained an insurgency, warring against any outside conquerors attempting to claim the Reach for themselves. When the Septim Empire collapsed, the modern Reachmen, known as the "Forsworn," lashed out and even briefly captured a Nord city. While the Forsworn definitely have good reasons to feel angry, the wholesale slaughter of civilians combined with the practice of human sacrifice and alliances with thoroughly nasty monstrosities kind of ruins the 'noble rebel' effect. The Forsworn's leader acknowledges this, saying "there are no innocents in war, only the guilty and the dead."

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** The Reachmen, also known as "Witchmen", are the native Bretons (racially, not culturally) of "the Reach," a region along the border between High Rock and Skyrim. They are a [[BarbarianTribe tribal]] people, primitive in [[FurBikini dress]] and tribal people, [[RockBeatsLaser technology]], led by shamans, who practice elements of [[{{Druid}} nature]] and [[OurGodsAreDifferent Daedra]] worship, primarily Hircine. From the time of the Alessian Empire (in the mid-1st Era) through the 4th era, they've [[OccupiersOutOfOurCountry maintained an insurgency, insurgency]], warring against any outside conquerors attempting to claim the Reach for themselves. When In the Septim Empire collapsed, 4th Era, with the [[VestigialEmpire crumbling Empire]] distracted by the [[GreatOffscreenWar Great War]], the modern Reachmen, known as the "Forsworn," Reachmen lashed out and even briefly captured a Nord [[HornyVikings Nord]] city. Though they were defeated and chased off by a Nord militia, the survivors regrouped in the hilly countryside of the Reach and became the Forsworn, [[YourTerroristsAreOurFreedomFighters terrorists]] in all but name. While the Forsworn definitely [[VillainHasAPoint have good reasons to feel angry, angry]], the wholesale slaughter of civilians combined with the practice of human sacrifice and alliances with thoroughly nasty monstrosities kind of ruins the 'noble rebel' effect. The [[RebelLeader Forsworn's leader leader]], Madanach the "King in Rags," acknowledges this, saying "there are no innocents in war, only the guilty and the dead."
11th Jun '17 2:27:38 AM jormis29
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* One of the most important tropes in the French film ''Army of Shadows''. The film follows a cell of the French resistance battling the Nazi regime. While the Nazis are portrayed as terrible monsters, it's repeatedly highlighted that the French have to get their hands dirty as well. Much of their work consists of executing traitors, including [[spoiler:their beloved female comrade]]. While the movie isn't a pro-Nazi film, it clearly suggests that war is disgusting and hellish even if you're one of the good guys.

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* One of the most important tropes in the French film ''Army of Shadows''.''Film/ArmyOfShadows''. The film follows a cell of the French resistance battling the Nazi regime. While the Nazis are portrayed as terrible monsters, it's repeatedly highlighted that the French have to get their hands dirty as well. Much of their work consists of executing traitors, including [[spoiler:their beloved female comrade]]. While the movie isn't a pro-Nazi film, it clearly suggests that war is disgusting and hellish even if you're one of the good guys.
26th May '17 8:11:12 AM CosmicFerret
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* Between 1980 and 1983, the ''StarWars'' fandom was inundated with stories speculating on how -- or if -- Han Solo might be thawed out of the carbonite in which he'd ended ''TheEmpireStrikesBack''. One particularly memorable story, "The Revenant", had him being unfrozen ''thirty years later''. Leia is dead, Chewbacca is dead, Lando is dead ... and Luke, who arranged Leia's death to bring a group of unaligned planets to the Rebellion's side, is First Citizen of a New Republic oppressive as ever the Empire was.

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* Between 1980 and 1983, the ''StarWars'' fandom was inundated with stories speculating on how -- or if -- Han Solo might be thawed out of the carbonite in which he'd ended ''TheEmpireStrikesBack''.''Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack''. One particularly memorable story, "The Revenant", had him being unfrozen ''thirty years later''. Leia is dead, Chewbacca is dead, Lando is dead ... and Luke, who arranged Leia's death to bring a group of unaligned planets to the Rebellion's side, is First Citizen of a New Republic oppressive as ever the Empire was.
24th May '17 8:49:06 AM BeerBaron
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* ''VideoGame/TheElderScrollsVSkyrim'' has two of these: The Stormcloaks, a significant chunk of which is blatantly racist in their 'Skyrim for Nords' approach, and the Forsworn of the Reach. While the Forsworn definitely have good reasons to feel angry, the wholesale slaughter of civilians combined with a tradition of human sacrifice and alliances with thoroughly nasty monstrosities kind of ruins the 'noble rebel' effect. The Forsworn's leader acknowledges this, saying there are no innocents in war, only the guilty and the dead.

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* ''VideoGame/TheElderScrollsVSkyrim'' ''Franchise/TheElderScrolls''
** ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsVSkyrim Skyrim]]'''s Civil War questline
has two the Stormcloaks in this role, many of these: The Stormcloaks, a significant chunk of which is whom are blatantly racist in their 'Skyrim for Nords' approach, approach.
** The Reachmen, also known as "Witchmen", are the native Bretons of "the Reach," a region along the border between High Rock
and Skyrim. They are a primitive and tribal people, led by shamans, who practice elements of [[{{Druid}} nature]] and [[OurGodsAreDifferent Daedra]] worship, primarily Hircine. From the Forsworn time of the Reach. Alessian Empire (in the mid-1st Era) through the 4th era, they've maintained an insurgency, warring against any outside conquerors attempting to claim the Reach for themselves. When the Septim Empire collapsed, the modern Reachmen, known as the "Forsworn," lashed out and even briefly captured a Nord city. While the Forsworn definitely have good reasons to feel angry, the wholesale slaughter of civilians combined with a tradition the practice of human sacrifice and alliances with thoroughly nasty monstrosities kind of ruins the 'noble rebel' effect. The Forsworn's leader acknowledges this, saying there "there are no innocents in war, only the guilty and the dead."
** "The Beautiful" are a terrorist organization comprised of young [[OurElvesAreBetter Altmer]] in the Summerset Isles, which uses public assassinations and general mayhem as a means to promote modernity and [[BlackAndGrayMorality to oppose]] the ''other'' branch of Altmeri extremism represented by [[ANaziByAnyOtherName the Thalmor]].
8th May '17 7:10:41 PM Fireblood
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* ''Series/BabylonFive'': Has plenty of violent uprisings - Free Mars. Other Mars Resistance cells, the Narn Rebellion against the Centauri. The Telepath Resistance, however, straddle the line between this and TheRevolutionWillNotBeVillified.

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* ''Series/BabylonFive'': Has ''Series/BabylonFive'' has plenty of violent uprisings - uprisings. Free Mars. Other Mars Resistance cells, the cells. The Narn Rebellion against the Centauri. The Telepath Resistance, however, straddle the line between this and TheRevolutionWillNotBeVillified.



* ''Series/UnsereMuetterUnsereVaeter'': In this German drama, between the [[UsefulNotes/NazisWithGnarlyWeapons Germans]], [[UsefulNotes/RedsWithRockets Soviets]], and [[LaResistance Polish Resistance]], the latter are usually the best of a bad lot, but are not above a bit of pillage or anti-semitism. This is exemplified when they ambush a train bound for Auschwitz and loot it for weapons, but are prepared to leave the prisoners in the cattle cars to their fate.

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* ''Series/UnsereMuetterUnsereVaeter'': In this German drama, between the [[UsefulNotes/NazisWithGnarlyWeapons Germans]], [[UsefulNotes/RedsWithRockets Soviets]], and [[LaResistance Polish Resistance]], the latter are usually the best of a bad lot, but are not above a bit of pillage or anti-semitism.antisemitism. This is exemplified when they ambush a train bound for Auschwitz and loot it for weapons, but are prepared to leave the prisoners in the cattle cars to their fate.
8th May '17 7:04:49 PM Fireblood
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* The Brotherhood in Creator/GeorgeOrwell's ''[[Literature/NineteenEightyFour 1984]]'', while having motives much more ethical than the Party's, are not much better in their methods. [[spoiler:Made even more complicated by the fact that the Brotherhood may not even ''exist'' and everything O'Brien told Winston about it might have been a lie]].

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* The Brotherhood in Creator/GeorgeOrwell's ''[[Literature/NineteenEightyFour 1984]]'', while having motives much more ethical than the Party's, are not much better in their methods. Winston and Julia swear to use any means (including murder or terrorism) in its cause. [[spoiler:Made even more complicated by the fact that the Brotherhood may not even ''exist'' and everything O'Brien told Winston about it might have been a lie]].



** His ''Literature/NotesFromUnderground'' was a rebuke to Nikolai Chernyshevsky's ''What is to be Done?'', an utopian novel about Russian progress and reform. Dostoevsky responded to it with his novella about a man who will never be part of the New Order, and that humanity is fundamentally self-destructive and flawed. He developed this further with ''Literature/CrimeAndPunishment'' where fantasies of change only hurt the innocent and that finally in ''Literature/TheBrothersKaramazov'' that ideas and wounds are collective and that a desire for change, even in the form of new ideas, leads to an act of {{Patricide}}.
** ''Literature/{{Demons}}'' argues that violence is a tool of binding revolutionaries together in a single unit, since everyone is equally dehumanized and guilty, and moulded on the path to discipline. The revolutionaries in the book are so obsessed with this form of discipline that they never think of actual political ideology. So they become corrupt and abusive, led by Pyotr Verkhovensky, their ideologist who preaches about the necessity of wiping out millions of people for the victory of the revolution and finally kills [[spoiler:one of his own cell members at the suspicion that he could be TheMole. Likewise, the original ideologist of the group, Nikolai Stavrogin who they all believe to be a ByronicHero is in fact a self-destructive nihilist reeling from guilt at the time he raped a little girl]]. What is even worse, the leader of this group has a prototype from real life -- Sergey Nechaev, one of the most infamous Russian terrorists of that time.

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** His ''Literature/NotesFromUnderground'' was a rebuke to Nikolai Chernyshevsky's ''What is to be Done?'', an a utopian novel about Russian progress and reform. Dostoevsky responded to it with his novella about a man who will never be part of the New Order, and that humanity is fundamentally self-destructive and flawed. He developed this further with ''Literature/CrimeAndPunishment'' where fantasies of change only hurt the innocent and that finally in ''Literature/TheBrothersKaramazov'' that ideas and wounds are collective and that a desire for change, even in the form of new ideas, leads to an act of {{Patricide}}.
{{patricide}}.
** ''Literature/{{Demons}}'' argues that violence is a tool of binding revolutionaries together in a single unit, since everyone is equally dehumanized and guilty, and moulded molded on the path to discipline. The revolutionaries in the book are so obsessed with this form of discipline that they never think of actual political ideology. So they become corrupt and abusive, led by Pyotr Verkhovensky, their ideologist who preaches about the necessity of wiping out millions of people for the victory of the revolution and finally kills [[spoiler:one of his own cell members at on the suspicion that he could be TheMole. Likewise, the original ideologist of the group, Nikolai Stavrogin Stavrogin, who they all believe to be a ByronicHero ByronicHero, is in fact a self-destructive nihilist reeling from guilt at the time he raped a little girl]]. What is even worse, the leader of this group has a prototype from real life -- Sergey Nechaev, one of the most infamous Russian terrorists of that time.
8th May '17 6:58:45 PM Fireblood
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* In contrast to the rebels of the later films, the Separatists in the ''Franchise/StarWars'' prequels are almost entirely shown as being evil. Their rebellion against the republic is little more than a big business backed attempt to rule the galaxy in the name of profit, with all of the big names fully aware of this. Being controlled by a [[EvilOverlord sith lord]] and a [[CyberneticsEatYourSoul homicidal cyborg]] certainly didn't help their causes reputation either. It's only the planets that revolt against the Republic in hope of receiving Confederacy assistance that actually believe in the moral cause beyond lip service.
** The Rebel Alliance itself is actually aware of this trope according to [[AllThereInTheManual supplemental materials]]; it specifically does not permit this kind of behavior from its cells, lest the Imperial propaganda painting Rebels as iconoclasts and destructive terrorists start to actually ring true with the general public.
** In ''Film/RogueOne'' the Alliance cut ties with Saw Gerrera and his resistance group because they became too brutal and caused too much collateral damage. On Jedha, Gerrera's men attack an Imperial convoy in the middle of a crowded neighborhood and cause a lot of civilian deaths. Gerrera is also willing to use MindRape on prisoners to extract information. We also see that the main Alliance leadership is not above fighting a dirty war when necessary. Cassian kills a fellow rebel rather than allow the guy to be captured by Imperials and be interrogated. Rogue One is formed from a group of Alliance commandos, spies, saboteurs and assassins who have grown tiered of doing the Rebellion's dirty work.

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* In contrast to the rebels of the later films, the Separatists in the ''Franchise/StarWars'' prequels are almost entirely shown as being evil. Their rebellion against the republic is little more than a big business backed attempt to rule the galaxy in the name of profit, with all of the big names fully aware of this. Being controlled by a [[EvilOverlord sith Sith lord]] and a [[CyberneticsEatYourSoul homicidal cyborg]] certainly didn't help their causes reputation either. It's only the planets that revolt against the Republic in hope of receiving Confederacy assistance that actually believe in the moral cause beyond lip service.
** The Rebel Alliance itself is actually aware of this trope according to [[AllThereInTheManual supplemental materials]]; it specifically does not permit this kind of behavior from its cells, lest the Imperial propaganda painting Rebels as iconoclasts and destructive terrorists start to actually ring true with the general public.
public. Extremists who refuse to obey this are kicked out.
** In ''Film/RogueOne'' the Alliance cut ties with Saw Gerrera and his resistance group because they became too brutal and caused too much collateral damage. On Jedha, Gerrera's men attack an Imperial convoy in the middle of a crowded neighborhood and cause a lot of civilian deaths. Gerrera is also willing to use MindRape on prisoners to extract information. We also see that the main Alliance leadership is not above fighting a dirty war when necessary. Cassian kills a fellow rebel rather than allow the guy to be captured by Imperials and be interrogated. Rogue One is formed from a group of Alliance commandos, spies, saboteurs and assassins who have grown tiered of doing the Rebellion's dirty work.



* A problem for Pancho Villa in ''Film/VivaVilla'' Madero coaxes Pancho into supporting him by saying that the revolution needs to be civilized, and that Pancho needs to fight in an organized army and not murder the enemy soldiers he captures. Pancho is reluctant, but agrees, and does become civilized for a time. But after Madero is killed Pancho fights back in his old prisoner-killing bandit style, which costs him the support of idealists like Don Felipe. And when he takes over as President of Mexico Pancho is an incompetent administrator, which he eventually admits.

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* A problem for Pancho Villa in ''Film/VivaVilla'' ''Film/VivaVilla''. Madero coaxes Pancho into supporting him by saying that the revolution needs to be civilized, and that Pancho needs to fight in as an organized army and not murder the enemy soldiers he captures. Pancho is reluctant, but agrees, and does become civilized for a time. But after Madero is killed Pancho fights back in his old prisoner-killing bandit style, which costs him the support of idealists like Don Felipe. And when he takes over as President of Mexico Mexico, Pancho is an incompetent administrator, which he eventually admits.



* ''Film/TheWindThatShakesTheBarley'', starring Creator/CillianMurphy, won the Palme d'Or award for its application of this trope to the Irish Revolution (and then the [[WeAreStrugglingTogether Civil War]]), so it must have done something right. [[note]]In RealLife, when the War of Independence ended, a significant amount of the next decade was spent by the new Irish government trying to get rid of the IRA, since they had been fighting for independence of the entire island, which the Free State government traded away, with the South becoming self-governing and then (with the Republic of Ireland in 1949) fully independent by itself. The Civil War (which is the worst things got) began when partition occurred under the Anglo-Irish Treaty, setting up the Free State government in the South. Much of the IRA became the Free State Army, while the rest rebelled, refusing to accept the referendum ratifying the treaty, seeking to unify all of Ireland.[[/note]]

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* ''Film/TheWindThatShakesTheBarley'', starring Creator/CillianMurphy, won the Palme d'Or award for its application of this trope to the Irish Revolution (and then the [[WeAreStrugglingTogether Civil War]]), so it must have done something right. [[note]]In RealLife, when the War of Independence ended, a significant amount of the next decade was spent by the new Irish government trying to get rid of the IRA, since they had been fighting for independence of the entire island, which the Free State government traded away, with the South becoming self-governing and then (with the Republic of Ireland in 1949) fully independent by itself. The Civil War (which is the worst things got) began when partition occurred under the Anglo-Irish Treaty, setting up the Free State government in the South. Much of the IRA became the Free State Army, while the rest rebelled, refusing to accept the referendum ratifying the treaty, seeking to unify all of Ireland.[[/note]]
8th May '17 6:51:25 PM Fireblood
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* The Danish film FlameAndCitron (2008). The title characters are assassins for the Danish resistance, but find their superior is using them to kill people to cover up for his own crimes.
* In ''Film/TheHungerGamesMockingjayPart2'', once the rebels take the fight to the Capital, you can see their tactics become more brutal and morally ambiguous. For example, when President Snow offers to open his mansion as a refugee camp, the rebels disguise themselves as refugees to get close enough to open fire, completely disregarding the fact that actual refugees and civilians are in their line of fire. It also doesn't help that [[spoiler:President Coin wanted to restart the Hunger Games using Capital children. Thankfully, Katniss and Plutarch manage to save the revolution from collapsing in on itself]].

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* The Danish film FlameAndCitron ''Flame And Citron'' (2008). The title characters are assassins for the Danish resistance, but find their superior is using them to kill people to cover up for his own crimes.
* In ''Film/TheHungerGamesMockingjayPart2'', once the rebels take the fight to the Capital, you can see their tactics become more brutal and morally ambiguous. For example, when President Snow offers to open his mansion as a refugee camp, the rebels disguise themselves as refugees to get close enough to open fire, completely disregarding the fact that actual refugees and civilians are in their line of fire. It also doesn't help that [[spoiler:President Coin wanted to restart the Hunger Games using Capital children.children, and it's implied she will replace Snow as dictator. Thankfully, Katniss and Plutarch manage to save the revolution from collapsing in on itself]].



* The rebels in ''Film/ProofOfLife'' most certainly count. After they stopped receiving foreign monetary aid for the revolution, the guerillas turned into farming coca plants and kidnapping and ransoming important foreigners. They also have little qualms about shooting civilians or police officers.
* Franco's revolutionaries in ''Film/PansLabyrinth''.

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* The rebels in ''Film/ProofOfLife'' most certainly count. After they stopped receiving foreign monetary aid for the revolution, the guerillas guerrillas turned into farming coca plants and kidnapping and ransoming important foreigners. They also have little qualms about shooting civilians or police officers.
officers. Of course, they were DirtyCommunists to begin with.
* Franco's revolutionaries troops (who were formerly the rebels) in ''Film/PansLabyrinth''.
8th May '17 6:46:09 PM Fireblood
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* ''Film/BlackBook'' catalogues Jews who were sold out to the Nazis by members of the Dutch Resistance. After the liberation, the Resistance harasses people who collaborated with the Nazis, even if it was done out of fear or as a part of their cover as double agents. To cover up their tracks, they even arrange a [[NobleDemon relatively good]] Nazi official to be executed for the crime of collaborating with the communist members of the Resistance.

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* ''Film/BlackBook'' catalogues Jews who were sold out to the Nazis by members of the Dutch Resistance. After the liberation, the Resistance harasses people who collaborated with the Nazis, even if it was done out of fear or as a part of their cover as double agents. To cover up their tracks, they even arrange People accused of being collaborators and harshly treated until an officer puts a [[NobleDemon relatively good]] Nazi official stop to be executed for the crime of collaborating with the communist members of the Resistance.it.
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