History Main / SeeTheWhitesOfTheirEyes

5th Oct '16 10:11:27 PM StarSword
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* Largely averted in the ''Lensman'' series, where "beams" are used for long-range combat and ships have "tractor beams" to pull the enemy in close so that physical missiles don't take forever to get there (even so, it's still described as taking quite a while for the missiles to cross the gap, and only the fact that the other ship ''can't move'' allow them to actually hit it). Smith was also fully aware that space has three dimensions. Fairly early on, the enemy develops "tractor shears" that allow them to cut a tractor beam and get away from heavier and more powerful but slower ships; the response is a technique called "englobement", where you surround them in three dimensions and use ''pressor'' beams from multiple ships to hold them in the center while you temporarily turn said center into the heart of a star.

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* Largely averted in the ''Lensman'' ''Literature/{{Lensman}}'' series, where "beams" are used for long-range combat and ships have "tractor beams" to pull the enemy in close so that physical missiles don't take forever to get there (even so, it's still described as taking quite a while for the missiles to cross the gap, and only the fact that the other ship ''can't move'' allow them to actually hit it). Smith was also fully aware that space has three dimensions. Fairly early on, the enemy develops "tractor shears" that allow them to cut a tractor beam and get away from heavier and more powerful but slower ships; the response is a technique called "englobement", where you surround them in three dimensions and use ''pressor'' beams from multiple ships to hold them in the center while you temporarily turn said center into the heart of a star.




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* {{Justified}} in ''Literature/AlexisCarew''. The energy-dampening effects of [[SubspaceOrHyperspace darkspace]], where most combat in the series takes place, and the price of the {{Unobtainium}} that counters it, mean that the StandardStarshipScuffle ''has'' to take place within visual range, [[WoodenShipsAndIronMen with hand-loaded single-charge laser cannons aimed with the Mark I Eyeball]].



* Played straight in all [[StargateVerse Stargate series]].

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* Played straight in all [[StargateVerse [[Franchise/StargateVerse Stargate series]].
series]]: fights between ships invariably happen within visual range.



* Averted in ''Star Fleet Battles'', the tactical tabletop adaptation of ship-to-ship combat in the ''Series/StarTrekTheOriginalSeries'' universe. Hexes represent an area of space 10,000 kilometers wide, and most combat takes place with several hexes separating the two forces.

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* Averted in ''Star Fleet Battles'', ''TabletopGame/StarFleetBattles'', the tactical tabletop adaptation of ship-to-ship combat in the ''Series/StarTrekTheOriginalSeries'' universe. Hexes represent an area of space 10,000 kilometers wide, and most combat takes place with several hexes separating the two forces.



* ''Homeworld'', the computer game, where your capital ships, whilst equipped with point defense weaponry, cannot target an enemy ship visible on radar tracking, which is out of visual range.

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* ''Homeworld'', ''VideoGame/{{Homeworld}}'', the computer game, where your capital ships, whilst equipped with point defense weaponry, cannot target an enemy ship visible on radar tracking, which is out of visual range.



* ''SwordOfTheStars'' can go from BVR combat where the enemies are only visible through the sensor display to close-in fighting where ships maneuver around each other. According to WordOfGod, though, this is merely an abstraction for the players' convenience. Everything actually takes place at stellar ranges and even "knife fights" with small mount weapons don't actually take place in WVR. The sequel will further avert this as weapon ranges will now exceed sensor ranges, requiring the use of battle riders as scouts/spotters.

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* ''SwordOfTheStars'' ''VideoGame/SwordOfTheStars'' can go from BVR combat where the enemies are only visible through the sensor display to close-in fighting where ships maneuver around each other. According to WordOfGod, though, this is merely an abstraction for the players' convenience. Everything actually takes place at stellar ranges and even "knife fights" with small mount weapons don't actually take place in WVR. The sequel will further avert this as weapon ranges will now exceed sensor ranges, requiring the use of battle riders as scouts/spotters.



* The longest-ranged anticapital gun in the later ''[[[VideoGame/{{X}} X-Universe]]'' games [[ArbitraryMaximumRange fades out]] at 6.62 km. Factor in, that's only two to three times longer than the ''ship'' is, and that the effective range is often a kilometer or so shorter. Averted with missile frigates, however, whose MacrossMissileMassacre can blow away targets from nearly 80 kilometers away (though effective range is closer to 30 km because of sensor range limitations, unless you have another ship [[TargetSpotter acting as a spotter]]). Weapon ranges remain equally pathetic in ''Videogame/XRebirth'', where the Plasma/JET LR DeathRay on the Olmekron has a range shorter than ship it's mounted on
* In ''SinsOfASolarEmpire'', highly-advanced ships must close to within spitting distance of one another to fight. This is further enforced by the fact that ships can only fight within the same gravity well, which doesn't go very far beyond planetary orbit. The only weapons that can go beyond that are considered superweapons and can only target planets.

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* The longest-ranged anticapital gun in the later ''[[[VideoGame/{{X}} X-Universe]]'' games [[ArbitraryMaximumRange fades out]] at 6.62 km. Factor in, that's only two to three times longer than the ''ship'' is, and that the effective range (i.e. where a moving target is likely to avoid it) is often a kilometer or so shorter. Averted with missile frigates, however, whose MacrossMissileMassacre can blow away targets from nearly 80 kilometers away (though effective range is closer to 30 km because of sensor range limitations, unless you have another ship [[TargetSpotter acting as a spotter]]). Weapon ranges remain equally pathetic in ''Videogame/XRebirth'', where the Plasma/JET LR DeathRay on the Olmekron has a range shorter than ship it's mounted on
on.
* In ''SinsOfASolarEmpire'', ''VideoGame/SinsOfASolarEmpire'', highly-advanced ships must close to within spitting distance of one another to fight. This is further enforced by the fact that ships can only fight within the same gravity well, which doesn't go very far beyond planetary orbit. The only weapons that can go beyond that are considered superweapons and can only target planets.
13th Sep '16 5:19:24 AM SAMAS
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* Justified in SOME Franchise/{{Gundam}} series, where the use of [[MinovskyPhysics Minovsky Particle]] makes using radar difficult to impossible.
** At the same time, it's still a rather blatant anachronism. WorldWarII tanks were often able to hit targets multiple kilometers away in combat just relying on their primitive gun sights. And most modern gun sights aren't radar based.
*** [[MinovskyPhysics Minovsky Particles]] interfere with ''all'' electro-magnetic phenomenon. In MS Igloo it was finally demonstrated that even visual sensors are impaired at great range.

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* Justified in SOME Franchise/{{Gundam}} series, where the use of [[MinovskyPhysics Minovsky Particle]] makes using radar difficult to impossible.
** At the same time, it's still a rather blatant anachronism. WorldWarII tanks were often able to hit targets multiple kilometers away in combat just relying on their primitive gun sights. And most modern gun sights aren't radar based.
*** [[MinovskyPhysics Minovsky Particles]]
impossible. Indeed, they interfere with ''all'' electro-magnetic phenomenon. In MS Igloo it was finally demonstrated that phenomenon, and at extreme ranges, even interfered with visual sensors are impaired light. Note that this didn't exactly mean the Federation and Zeon fleets were fighting at great range.knife-point -- "Visual range" is a ''long'' ways in empty space. It was mostly the [[HumonousMecha Mobile Suits]] that got in everyone's faces.



** Also, in ''Empire Strikes Back'', Darth Vader's apparent tactic was to attack the Rebels from outside their sensor range, so they couldn't raise the shield (which is [[YouHaveFailedMe why he was pissed when Ozzel came out of hyperspace too close]]). They also display incredible accuracy in the EU, where a Super Star Destroyer fires on a worldship from outside the solar system.

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** Also, in ''Empire Strikes Back'', Darth Vader's apparent tactic was to attack the Rebels from outside their sensor range, so they couldn't raise the shield (which is [[YouHaveFailedMe why he was pissed when Ozzel came out of hyperspace too close]]). They also display displayed incredible accuracy in the EU, where a Super Star Destroyer fires on a worldship from outside the solar system.



* In ''Tabletopgame/BattleTech'', the absolute largest (mass-produced) direct-fire weapon that the building-sized [[HumongousMecha BattleMechs]] can mount has a range well under 1 kilometer. Artillery can hit further out but is incredibly inaccurate. The writers of the wargame have stated that they made engagement ranges so small to prevent every battle from turning into a boring sniper battle, and to allow melee combat to coexist with laser cannons and cruise missiles. Optional rules exist for advanced players with too much time to kill and a football field to play on, allowing [=BattleMechs=] to blast each other from a dozen miles away with a few upgrades and a steadied arm. However, like ''Warhammer'', the space-combat game ''[=AeroTech=]'' has ranges measured in hundreds of thousands of kilometers.

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* In ''Tabletopgame/BattleTech'', the absolute largest (mass-produced) direct-fire weapon that the building-sized [[HumongousMecha BattleMechs]] can mount has a range well under 1 kilometer. Artillery can hit further out but is incredibly inaccurate. The writers of the wargame have stated that they made engagement ranges so small to prevent every battle from turning into a boring sniper battle, and to allow melee combat to coexist with laser cannons and cruise missiles. Optional rules exist for advanced players with too much time to kill and a football field to play on, allowing [=BattleMechs=] to blast each other from a dozen miles away with a few upgrades and a steadied arm. However, like ''Warhammer'', the space-combat game ''[=AeroTech=]'' has ranges measured in hundreds of thousands of kilometers.
18th Aug '16 12:32:43 AM PaulA
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* Justified in the Literature/VorkosiganSaga. The ever-escalating race between space weapons and the defenses to stop them has resulted in extremely short ranged weaponry. This is explained in a brief narrative Infodump towards the end of "The Warrior's Apprentice" and more or less never comes up again; despite being ostensibly military sci-fi, the books usually focus on people, not pulse lasers.

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* Justified in the Literature/VorkosiganSaga. The ever-escalating race between space weapons and the defenses to stop them has resulted in extremely short ranged weaponry. This is explained in a brief narrative Infodump towards the end of "The Warrior's Apprentice" ''Literature/TheWarriorsApprentice'' and more or less never comes up again; despite being ostensibly military sci-fi, the books usually focus on people, not pulse lasers.
26th Jul '16 3:40:45 PM Saber15
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* The longest-ranged anticapital gun in the ''VideoGame/{{X}}3'' trilogy [[ArbitraryMaximumRange fades out]] at 6.62 km. Factor in, that's only two to three times longer than the ''ship'' is, and that the effective range is often a kilometer or so shorter. Averted with missile frigates, however, whose MacrossMissileMassacre can blow away targets from nearly 80 kilometers away (though effective range is closer to 30 km because of sensor range limitations, unless you have another ship acting as a spotter).

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* The longest-ranged anticapital gun in the ''VideoGame/{{X}}3'' trilogy later ''[[[VideoGame/{{X}} X-Universe]]'' games [[ArbitraryMaximumRange fades out]] at 6.62 km. Factor in, that's only two to three times longer than the ''ship'' is, and that the effective range is often a kilometer or so shorter. Averted with missile frigates, however, whose MacrossMissileMassacre can blow away targets from nearly 80 kilometers away (though effective range is closer to 30 km because of sensor range limitations, unless you have another ship [[TargetSpotter acting as a spotter).spotter]]). Weapon ranges remain equally pathetic in ''Videogame/XRebirth'', where the Plasma/JET LR DeathRay on the Olmekron has a range shorter than ship it's mounted on



* In the ''[[Videogame/{{X}} X-Universe]]'' series of space simulators, capital ships have a maximum cannon range of 7 kilometers, which is even more pathetic when one considers that capital ships are [[MileLongShip at least 2 kilometers long]]. Missiles from the dedicated missile frigates and bombers have a much more forgiving range of 80 kilometers, long enough for them to require a TargetSpotter satellite or scout ship. Weapon ranges are just as comically pathetic in ''Videogame/XRebirth'', where the Plasma/JET LR DeathRay on the Olmekron has a range shorter than the length of the ship it's mounted on
26th Jul '16 3:38:08 PM Saber15
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Added DiffLines:

* In the ''[[Videogame/{{X}} X-Universe]]'' series of space simulators, capital ships have a maximum cannon range of 7 kilometers, which is even more pathetic when one considers that capital ships are [[MileLongShip at least 2 kilometers long]]. Missiles from the dedicated missile frigates and bombers have a much more forgiving range of 80 kilometers, long enough for them to require a TargetSpotter satellite or scout ship. Weapon ranges are just as comically pathetic in ''Videogame/XRebirth'', where the Plasma/JET LR DeathRay on the Olmekron has a range shorter than the length of the ship it's mounted on
7th Jun '16 12:14:21 PM Willbyr
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* Averted for the most part in ''TowardTheTerra''. Several space battles are shown to be taking place at such distances that the opposing sides can't even see each other; at one point when preparing to attack a planet, the attacking force parks its superweapon behind a gas giant in the same solar system to keep it from being detected, and simply fires it from there when they're ready. The real reason close mobile suit battle happens is because most mobile suits seem at least somewhat capable of [[DodgeTheBullet dodging cannon fire]].

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* Averted for the most part in ''TowardTheTerra''.''Manga/TowardTheTerra''. Several space battles are shown to be taking place at such distances that the opposing sides can't even see each other; at one point when preparing to attack a planet, the attacking force parks its superweapon behind a gas giant in the same solar system to keep it from being detected, and simply fires it from there when they're ready. The real reason close mobile suit battle happens is because most mobile suits seem at least somewhat capable of [[DodgeTheBullet dodging cannon fire]].
2nd May '16 8:50:33 PM DeltaDart
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* During TheVietnamWar, American jets carries carried the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-7_Sparrow Sparrow missile]] which was designed to shoot down Russian bombers ''beyond visual range''. Unfortunately, due to a fear of friendly fire, commanders instructed fighter pilots to only fire on a hostile aircraft after ''visual'' identification , completely negating the technological advantage of the long range missile. The missiles were completely ill suited for tracking maneuvering targets in a dogfight and achieved a kill rate of under 10%.

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* During TheVietnamWar, American jets carries carried the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-7_Sparrow Sparrow missile]] which was designed to shoot down Russian bombers ''beyond visual range''. Unfortunately, due to a fear [[ObstructiveCodeOfConduct rules of friendly fire, engagement]], commanders instructed fighter pilots to only fire on a hostile aircraft after ''visual'' identification , completely negating the technological advantage of the long range missile. The missiles were completely ill suited for tracking maneuvering targets in a dogfight and achieved a kill rate of under 10%.
2nd May '16 8:50:33 PM DeltaDart
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19th Apr '16 11:13:00 AM erforce
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* ''Literature/JohnCarterOfMars''. Despite the incredible range of Martian rifles everyone still carries and uses swords/spears. An honor code exists that specifies that a Martian must, when challenged, use an equivalent or inferior weapon (if someone charges you with a long sword you can fight him with your short sword, but you can't go the IndianaJones route and just shoot him.) It's also considered unsporting to kill an unsuspecting target without issuing a challenge first... the Green Martians near the start of the series ''do'' fire upon Red Martians from ambush, but as the Red Martians they're firing at are in a ''flying battleship'' it's not as unfair as it sounds.

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* ''Literature/JohnCarterOfMars''. Despite the incredible range of Martian rifles everyone still carries and uses swords/spears. An honor code exists that specifies that a Martian must, when challenged, use an equivalent or inferior weapon (if someone charges you with a long sword you can fight him with your short sword, but you can't go the IndianaJones Franchise/IndianaJones route and just shoot him.) It's also considered unsporting to kill an unsuspecting target without issuing a challenge first... the Green Martians near the start of the series ''do'' fire upon Red Martians from ambush, but as the Red Martians they're firing at are in a ''flying battleship'' it's not as unfair as it sounds.
16th Apr '16 1:55:00 AM Morgenthaler
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** May be somewhat {{justified|Trope}} in that Cylon ECM is usually enough to make any kind of guided Colonial munition worthless, necessitating a close-in gun battle.
** Also Justified by the presence of FTL that cannot be jammed or traced. As demonstrated by the Colonial fleet surviving multiple Cylon attacks by the simple but effective tactic of jumping away every time the Cylons show up. In such a situation the only realistic option for an attacker is to jump in practically on top of their target, so they can hit them before they jump away. Since both sides rely heavily (but not exclusively) on fighters which must be launched and then get close to the target (presumably since their own guns have unspectacular muzzle velocity) this means positioning your capital ships very close indeed. Of course all of this assumes your target will want to run away (and you want to prevent him), but if he thinks he can fight back you may want to reconsider your attack anyway.
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