History Main / SciFiGhetto

10th Sep '17 9:22:14 PM PaulA
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* Creator/HPLovecraft is usually remembered as a horror writer (which is fair enough, given he popularized [[CosmicHorrorStory an entire subgenre]]). However, a lot of his later stories tended to lean more towards a sci-fi bent, with the monsters, still horrific and inhuman as ever, clearly shown to be aliens (some examples include ''Literature/AtTheMountainsOfMadness'', "Literature/TheWhispererInDarkness", "Literature/TheShadowOutOfTime", and "Literature/TheColourOutOfSpace") and even suggesting many of the other mythos deities (such as Cthulhu, Yog-Sothoth, etc.) to be such. Despite this you will still find people who refuse to call a story like ''Literature/AtTheMountainsOfMadness'' science fiction even though it's about scientists discovering aliens and it was first published in ''a science fiction magazine'' (the same magazine that only two years later would publish [[Literature/WhoGoesThere a certain other novella]] that would be adapted into [[Film/TheThing1982 a certain horror film]]). The same can arguably also be said for some of Lovecraft's earlier stories such as "From Beyond" and ''Literature/Herbert WestReanimator'', both of which were centered around science experiments GoneHorriblyRight.

to:

* Creator/HPLovecraft is usually remembered as a horror writer (which is fair enough, given he popularized [[CosmicHorrorStory an entire subgenre]]). However, a lot of his later stories tended to lean more towards a sci-fi bent, with the monsters, still horrific and inhuman as ever, clearly shown to be aliens (some examples include ''Literature/AtTheMountainsOfMadness'', "Literature/TheWhispererInDarkness", "Literature/TheShadowOutOfTime", and "Literature/TheColourOutOfSpace") and even suggesting many of the other mythos deities (such as Cthulhu, Yog-Sothoth, etc.) to be such. Despite this you will still find people who refuse to call a story like ''Literature/AtTheMountainsOfMadness'' science fiction even though it's about scientists discovering aliens and it was first published in ''a science fiction magazine'' (the same magazine that only two years later would publish [[Literature/WhoGoesThere a certain other novella]] that would be adapted into [[Film/TheThing1982 a certain horror film]]). The same can arguably also be said for some of Lovecraft's earlier stories such as "From Beyond" and ''Literature/Herbert WestReanimator'', ''Literature/HerbertWestReanimator'', both of which were centered around science experiments GoneHorriblyRight.
10th Sep '17 9:21:26 PM PaulA
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* Creator/HPLovecraft is usually remembered as a horror writer (which is fair enough, given he popularized [[CosmicHorrorStory an entire subgenre]]). However, a lot of his later stories tended to lean more towards a sci-fi bent, with the monsters, still horrific and inhuman as ever, clearly shown to be aliens (some examples include ''Literature/AtTheMountainsOfMadness'', ''Literature/TheWhispererInDarkness'', ''Literature/TheShadowOutOfTime'', and ''Literature/TheColourOutOfSpace'') and even suggesting many of the other mythos deities (such as Cthulhu, Yog-Sothoth, etc.) to be such. Despite this you will still find people who refuse to call a story like ''Literature/AtTheMountainsOfMadness'' science fiction even though it's about scientists discovering aliens and it was first published in ''a science fiction magazine'' (the same magazine that only two years later would publish [[Literature/WhoGoesThere a certain other novella]] that would be adapted into [[Film/TheThing1982 a certain horror film]]).
** The same can arguably also be said for some of Lovecraft's earlier stories such as ''From Beyond'' and ''Herbert West- Reanimator'', both of which were centered around science experiments GoneHorriblyRight.

to:

* Creator/HPLovecraft is usually remembered as a horror writer (which is fair enough, given he popularized [[CosmicHorrorStory an entire subgenre]]). However, a lot of his later stories tended to lean more towards a sci-fi bent, with the monsters, still horrific and inhuman as ever, clearly shown to be aliens (some examples include ''Literature/AtTheMountainsOfMadness'', ''Literature/TheWhispererInDarkness'', ''Literature/TheShadowOutOfTime'', "Literature/TheWhispererInDarkness", "Literature/TheShadowOutOfTime", and ''Literature/TheColourOutOfSpace'') "Literature/TheColourOutOfSpace") and even suggesting many of the other mythos deities (such as Cthulhu, Yog-Sothoth, etc.) to be such. Despite this you will still find people who refuse to call a story like ''Literature/AtTheMountainsOfMadness'' science fiction even though it's about scientists discovering aliens and it was first published in ''a science fiction magazine'' (the same magazine that only two years later would publish [[Literature/WhoGoesThere a certain other novella]] that would be adapted into [[Film/TheThing1982 a certain horror film]]).
**
film]]). The same can arguably also be said for some of Lovecraft's earlier stories such as ''From Beyond'' "From Beyond" and ''Herbert West- Reanimator'', ''Literature/Herbert WestReanimator'', both of which were centered around science experiments GoneHorriblyRight.
5th Sep '17 10:20:20 PM PaulA
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* Creator/HPLovecraft is usually remembered as a horror writer (which is fair enough, given he popularized [[CosmicHorrorStory an entire subgenre]]). However, a lot of his later stories tended to lean more towards a sci-fi bent, with the monsters, still horrific and inhuman as ever, clearly shown to be aliens (some examples include ''Literature/AtTheMountainsOfMadness'', ''Literature/TheWhispererInDarkness'', ''The Shadow Out Of Time'', and ''Literature/TheColourOutOfSpace'') and even suggesting many of the other mythos deities (such as Cthulhu, Yog-Sothoth, etc.) to be such. Despite this you will still find people who refuse to call a story like ''Literature/AtTheMountainsOfMadness'' science fiction even though it's about scientists discovering aliens and it was first published in ''a science fiction magazine'' (the same magazine that only two years later would publish [[Literature/WhoGoesThere a certain other novella]] that would be adapted into [[Film/TheThing1982 a certain horror film]]).

to:

* Creator/HPLovecraft is usually remembered as a horror writer (which is fair enough, given he popularized [[CosmicHorrorStory an entire subgenre]]). However, a lot of his later stories tended to lean more towards a sci-fi bent, with the monsters, still horrific and inhuman as ever, clearly shown to be aliens (some examples include ''Literature/AtTheMountainsOfMadness'', ''Literature/TheWhispererInDarkness'', ''The Shadow Out Of Time'', ''Literature/TheShadowOutOfTime'', and ''Literature/TheColourOutOfSpace'') and even suggesting many of the other mythos deities (such as Cthulhu, Yog-Sothoth, etc.) to be such. Despite this you will still find people who refuse to call a story like ''Literature/AtTheMountainsOfMadness'' science fiction even though it's about scientists discovering aliens and it was first published in ''a science fiction magazine'' (the same magazine that only two years later would publish [[Literature/WhoGoesThere a certain other novella]] that would be adapted into [[Film/TheThing1982 a certain horror film]]).
14th Aug '17 10:14:54 PM FurryKef
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* True art was not always angsty. Back in the 19th century fantasy was quite common in romanticism. It used to attract big crowds because they were useful as a tool of escapism to forget the horror that was happening in real life. With that in mind it should not be suprising that the ghetto back in the day targeted a genre known as "naturalism". The fact that they [[AccentuateTheNegative accentuated the negative]] of the society back in the day (as opposed to "realism", which showed both the good and the bad), that all of them had [[DownerEnding downer endings]], that they did not hide the fact that the society was full of misogyny, rape, murder etc. and that many of them were perhaps some of the most pretentious people around (Émile Zola, the codifier of naturalism, always said that he was in fact a scientist that examined human life) led them to have a big and extremely vocal hatedom. The very first Flemish naturalist novel to get some (as opposed to no) acclaim from critics was ''Het recht van de sterkste'' (which also employed a few fantasy elements) in 1893. By then the genre was around 30 years old. Nowadays, due to the belief that TrueArtIsAngsty the genre gets taught in French and Belgian literature classes, got acclaim and is also the genre of which the ghetto against it back in the day might get mentioned.

to:

* True art was not always angsty. Back in the 19th century fantasy was quite common in romanticism. It used to attract big crowds because they were useful as a tool of escapism to forget the horror that was happening in real life. With that in mind it should not be suprising surprising that the ghetto back in the day targeted a genre known as "naturalism". The fact that they [[AccentuateTheNegative accentuated the negative]] of the society back in the day (as opposed to "realism", which showed both the good and the bad), that all of them had [[DownerEnding downer endings]], that they did not hide the fact that the society was full of misogyny, rape, murder etc. and that many of them were perhaps some of the most pretentious people around (Émile Zola, the codifier of naturalism, always said that he was in fact a scientist that examined human life) led them to have a big and extremely vocal hatedom. The very first Flemish naturalist novel to get some (as opposed to no) acclaim from critics was ''Het recht van de sterkste'' (which also employed a few fantasy elements) in 1893. By then the genre was around 30 years old. Nowadays, due to the belief that TrueArtIsAngsty the genre gets taught in French and Belgian literature classes, got acclaim and is also the genre of which the ghetto against it back in the day might get mentioned.
9th Aug '17 10:39:41 PM PaulA
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* ''Film/TheSilenceOfTheLambs'', one of only three films to win all of the "Big Five" UsefulNotes/{{Academy Award}}s[[note]]Best Actor, Best Actress, Best Director, Best Writing (Adapted Screenplay), and Best Picture. The other two films are ''Film/ItHappenedOneNight'' and ''Literature/OneFlewOverTheCuckoosNest''.[[/note]], is almost never referred to as a horror film, despite it being about a SerialKiller who [[ImAHumanitarian eats people]] and another one who [[GenuineHumanHide flays women and wears their skin]]. It is almost always referred to as a PsychologicalThriller, and indeed helped to lay out [[FollowTheLeader a template for such films]] in TheNineties, in which (usually female) police protagonists hunted down serial killers and often found themselves nearly getting killed by them -- and like ''Silence'', very rarely would those films be called horror.

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* ''Film/TheSilenceOfTheLambs'', one of only three films to win all of the "Big Five" UsefulNotes/{{Academy Award}}s[[note]]Best Actor, Best Actress, Best Director, Best Writing (Adapted Screenplay), and Best Picture. The other two films are ''Film/ItHappenedOneNight'' and ''Literature/OneFlewOverTheCuckoosNest''.''Film/OneFlewOverTheCuckoosNest''.[[/note]], is almost never referred to as a horror film, despite it being about a SerialKiller who [[ImAHumanitarian eats people]] and another one who [[GenuineHumanHide flays women and wears their skin]]. It is almost always referred to as a PsychologicalThriller, and indeed helped to lay out [[FollowTheLeader a template for such films]] in TheNineties, in which (usually female) police protagonists hunted down serial killers and often found themselves nearly getting killed by them -- and like ''Silence'', very rarely would those films be called horror.
27th Jul '17 11:51:58 AM Derkhan
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* Apparently, when you get your Literature License you get a coupon entitling you to one free SF novel - preferably a {{dystopia}} or [[AfterTheEnd post-apocalypse]] tale. Once the coupon is used, you're in danger of becoming a "genre writer" if you produce another one.
26th Jul '17 12:08:20 PM narm00
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* {{Creator/Kieron Gillen}} admitted, that for some time he believed in fantasy sub-ghetto (mostly because of being critical towards StandardFantasySetting and related tropes) and would prefer to call himself "speculative fiction writer" until ex-girlfriend pointed out to him that if speculative aspect of his works boils down to [[Comicbook/{{Phonogram}} magic music]] then he is a fantasy writer.

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* {{Creator/Kieron Gillen}} admitted, admitted that for some time he believed in the fantasy sub-ghetto (mostly because of being critical towards the StandardFantasySetting and related tropes) and would prefer to call himself a "speculative fiction writer" until his ex-girlfriend pointed out to him that if the speculative aspect of his works boils down to [[Comicbook/{{Phonogram}} magic music]] then he is a fantasy writer.



** And never mind that the film was nominated for a japanese academy award.

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** And never mind that the film was nominated for a japanese Japanese academy award.



** Creator/AlecGuiness deeply regretted Star Wars and seemed to have very much believed in this trope. Amusingly his performance snagged him an Oscar nomination for Best Supporting Actor, he's the only actor to get an Oscar nomination for a Star Wars role to date.

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** Creator/AlecGuiness Creator/AlecGuinness deeply regretted Star Wars and seemed to have very much believed in this trope. Amusingly his performance snagged him an Oscar nomination for Best Supporting Actor, Actor; he's the only actor to get an Oscar nomination for a Star Wars role to date.



* Prior to the 1930s, almost all American horror films were careful to provide plausible explanations for any seemingly supernatural story elements, as seen in ''London After Midnight,'' ''ThePhantomOfTheOpera,'' ''The Cat and the Canary,'' etc. It was generally believed that audiences considered the supernatural silly and wouldn't take such a film seriously. Browning's ''{{Dracula}}'' was considered a major risk for Universal specifically because it contained no cop outs: the vampire really was a vampire, and the film's (now lost) coda went out of its way to make absolutely certain audiences knew it.

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* Prior to the 1930s, almost all American horror films were careful to provide plausible explanations for any seemingly supernatural story elements, as seen in ''London After Midnight,'' ''ThePhantomOfTheOpera,'' ''[[Film/ThePhantomOfTheOpera1925 The Phantom of the Opera]],'' ''The Cat and the Canary,'' etc. It was generally believed that audiences considered the supernatural silly and wouldn't take such a film seriously. Browning's ''{{Dracula}}'' ''Film/[[Dracula1931 Dracula]]'' was considered a major risk for Universal specifically because it contained no cop outs: the vampire really was a vampire, and the film's (now lost) coda went out of its way to make absolutely certain audiences knew it.



** They have, however, taken care to gradually build up the fantastic elements so audiences could adjust to them: their first films, ''Film/{{Iron Man 1}}'' and ''Film/TheIncredibleHulk'' used generally "grounded" sci-fi; and when ''Film/{{Thor}}'' came out it justified its "magic" with ClarkesThirdLaw. Of course, then an AlienInvasion happened in ''Film/{{The Avengers|2012}}'' and all bets are off.

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** They have, however, taken care to gradually build up the fantastic elements so audiences could adjust to them: their first films, ''Film/{{Iron Man 1}}'' and ''Film/TheIncredibleHulk'' used generally "grounded" sci-fi; and when ''Film/{{Thor}}'' came out it justified its "magic" with ClarkesThirdLaw. Of course, then an AlienInvasion happened in ''Film/{{The Avengers|2012}}'' and all bets are were off.



* Averted with ''Film/MadMaxFuryRoad'', a two-hour post-apocalyptic chase sequence and just about the purest example of an action movie ever made, which smashed through the ghetto like a bat out of hell, becoming arguably the most critically acclaimed film of 2015, and [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accolades_received_by_Mad_Max:_Fury_Road being nominated and awarded more awards than can quite frankly be counted]], eventually ending up with ''ten'' Oscar nominations, including a Best Picture nomination.

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* Averted with ''Film/MadMaxFuryRoad'', a two-hour post-apocalyptic chase sequence and just about the purest example of an action movie ever made, which smashed through the ghetto like a bat out of hell, becoming arguably the most critically acclaimed film of 2015, and [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accolades_received_by_Mad_Max:_Fury_Road being nominated for and awarded more awards than can quite frankly be counted]], eventually ending up with ''ten'' Oscar nominations, including a Best Picture nomination.



* Much like ''Film/TheSilenceOfTheLambs'', ''Film/TheHatefulEight'' is very rarely called a horror movie, even though Creator/QuentinTarantino and Music/EnnioMorricone have outright said that it's horror and that the score was composed with this mind.

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* Much like ''Film/TheSilenceOfTheLambs'', ''Film/TheHatefulEight'' is very rarely called a horror movie, even though Creator/QuentinTarantino and Music/EnnioMorricone have outright said that it's horror and that the score was composed with this in mind.



*** The genre confusion surrounding Atwood's books seem to stem from the fact that she uses the term "speculative fiction" rather than "dystopia", but given the settings of ''The Handmaid's Tale'' and ''Oryx and Crake'', her work undeniably falls under that heading. All dystopian novels - (''Brave New World'', ''Nineteen Eighty-Four'' and so on) make heavy use of sci-fi elements, but their main focus is on society, which appears to be the point she's making by refusing to refer to her work as sci-fi.

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*** The genre confusion surrounding Atwood's books seem to stem from the fact that she uses the term "speculative fiction" rather than "dystopia", but given the settings of ''The Handmaid's Tale'' and ''Oryx and Crake'', her work undeniably falls under that heading. All dystopian novels - (''Brave New World'', ''Nineteen Eighty-Four'' and so on) make heavy use of sci-fi elements, but their main focus is on society, which appears to be the point she's making by refusing to refer to her work as sci-fi.



* Creator/JKRowling is infamous for saying that she "didn't realize that she was writing a fantasy story" until she finished the first ''Literature/{{Harry Potter|and the Philosophers Stone}}'' book. This trope is presumably why the series has not won many notable awards[[note]]The series did win a few awards for ''Philosopher's Stone'' and ''Chamber of Secrets'' when they were first released in the UK, while the series was still gathering a following. After ''[[Literature/HarryPotterAndThePrisonerOfAzkaban Prisoner of Azkaban]]'' was published, JKR publicly announced that she didn't want Harry Potter nominated for any book awards because she wanted to let other children's authors get exposure for their work.[[/note]]

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* Creator/JKRowling is infamous for saying that she "didn't realize that she was writing a fantasy story" until she finished the first ''Literature/{{Harry Potter|and the Philosophers Stone}}'' book. This trope is presumably why the series has not won many notable awards[[note]]The awards.[[note]]The series did win a few awards for ''Philosopher's Stone'' and ''Chamber of Secrets'' when they were first released in the UK, while the series was still gathering a following. After ''[[Literature/HarryPotterAndThePrisonerOfAzkaban Prisoner of Azkaban]]'' was published, JKR publicly announced that she didn't want Harry Potter nominated for any book awards because she wanted to let other children's authors get exposure for their work.[[/note]]



* Several reviews for ''Literature/TheHost'' on Amazon, have described the novel as sci-fi for people who don't like sci-fi.

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* Several reviews for ''Literature/TheHost'' on Amazon, Amazon have described the novel as sci-fi for people who don't like sci-fi.



* The Creator/StrugatskyBrothers may, in fact, be partly credited for the sci-fi ghetto taking less drastic shapes in the Soviet and post-Soviet literature and literary criticism. Because hard science fiction was seen by the censors as generally "in line" with the SocialistRealism and later similarly politically appropriate genres, this flavor of the fantastic has never been marginalized to the same degree as in the Western criticism (fun fact: the genre label "fantastica" still means "science fiction" in vernacular Russian, while "fantasy" is a newer loanword). The Strugatskys, however, used that mandate to explore very close-to-home social and philosophical issues in their very science fiction novels, irritating the censors to no end with their subversiveness, but also going a long way to teach several generations of Russian readers that the fantastic and the "literary merit" are not mutually exclusive concepts.
* Creator/KurtVonnegut would sometimes state he didn't write science fiction, and spend his life fighting the label; despite writing novels such as ''Literature/MotherNight'', ''God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater'', ''Hocus Pocus'', ''Deadeye Dick'', ''Jailbird'', and ''Literature/BreakfastOfChampions'' (all of which contain no Sci-fi), his time-travelling alien-abducted protagonist of ''SlaughterhouseFive'' made critics constantly label him otherwise, at least until people started naming it as an example of "postmodernism".
** It's notable, however, that Vonnegut often alluded to the Sci-fi Ghetto via {{metafiction}}, such as with [[AuthorAvatar Kilgore Trout]][[note]]The reported author of over 73 different novels, all published by different, now defunct publishers.[[/note]] and Eliot Rosewater.[[note]] In one book, he crashes a Sci-fi writers convention to tell them that while they couldn't write, they were the only ones talking about the issues that matter.[[/note]]

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* The Creator/StrugatskyBrothers may, in fact, be partly credited for the sci-fi ghetto taking less drastic shapes in the Soviet and post-Soviet literature and literary criticism. Because hard science fiction was seen by the censors as generally "in line" with the SocialistRealism and later similarly politically appropriate genres, this flavor of the fantastic has never been marginalized to the same degree as in the Western criticism (fun fact: the genre label "fantastica" still means "science fiction" in vernacular Russian, while "fantasy" is a newer loanword). The Strugatskys, however, used that mandate to explore very close-to-home social and philosophical issues in their very science fiction novels, irritating the censors to no end with their subversiveness, but also going a long way to teach several generations of Russian readers that the fantastic and the "literary merit" are not mutually exclusive concepts.
* Creator/KurtVonnegut would sometimes state he didn't write science fiction, and spend spent his life fighting the label; despite writing novels such as ''Literature/MotherNight'', ''God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater'', ''Hocus Pocus'', ''Deadeye Dick'', ''Jailbird'', and ''Literature/BreakfastOfChampions'' (all of which contain no Sci-fi), his time-travelling alien-abducted protagonist of ''SlaughterhouseFive'' ''Literature/SlaughterhouseFive'' made critics constantly label him otherwise, at least until people started naming it as an example of "postmodernism".
** It's notable, however, that Vonnegut often alluded to the Sci-fi Ghetto via {{metafiction}}, such as with [[AuthorAvatar Kilgore Trout]][[note]]The reported author of over 73 different novels, all published by different, now defunct publishers.[[/note]] and Eliot Rosewater.[[note]] In one book, he crashes a Sci-fi writers writers' convention to tell them that while they couldn't write, they were the only ones talking about the issues that matter.[[/note]]



** In the same essay he compared behavior of Science-Fiction fans looking down on fantasy to the hare from La Fontaine's ''The Hare and the Frogs'' - having their favorite genre being picked on by mainstream, they pick on fantasy just like the cowardly hare scares frogs.

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** In the same essay he compared the behavior of Science-Fiction fans looking down on fantasy to the hare from La Fontaine's ''The Hare and the Frogs'' - having their favorite genre being picked on by the mainstream, they pick on fantasy just like the cowardly hare scares frogs.



* David Mitchell (no, [[NamesTheSame not that one]]) often has sections in his books which are unambiguously science fiction. Two of his books, ''Literature/CloudAtlas'' and ''Ghostwritten'' contain several linked stories, and in both books at least one of the sections is unambiguously science fiction. Mitchell, a kind of literary ventriloquist, exhibits in the same books he can write in every genre from espionage thriller to Amis-style farce, so it's no surprise that his science fiction is very, ''very'' good. You won't find his books in the science fiction section, however, or wearing their SF elements with any pride. Like Atwood, Vonnegut and Ballard, he seems to be one of those writers the publishing companies feel is too good to really be science fiction.

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* David Mitchell (no, [[NamesTheSame not that one]]) often has sections in his books which are unambiguously science fiction. Two of his books, ''Literature/CloudAtlas'' and ''Ghostwritten'' ''Ghostwritten'', contain several linked stories, and in both books at least one of the sections is unambiguously science fiction. Mitchell, a kind of literary ventriloquist, exhibits in the same books he can write in every genre from espionage thriller to Amis-style farce, so it's no surprise that his science fiction is very, ''very'' good. You won't find his books in the science fiction section, however, or wearing their SF elements with any pride. Like Atwood, Vonnegut and Ballard, he seems to be one of those writers the publishing companies feel is too good to really be science fiction.



** He once told a young writer Paolo Bacigalupi to get out of the genre while he could. Take that as you will.

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** He once told a young writer writer, Paolo Bacigalupi Bacigalupi, to get out of the genre while he could. Take that as you will.



* Creator/HPLovecraft is usually remembered as a horror writer (which is fair enough, given he popularized [[CosmicHorrorStory an entire subgenre]]). However, a lot of his later stories tended to lean more towards a sci-fi bent, with the monsters, still horrific and inhuman as ever, clearly shown to be aliens (some examples include ''Literature/AtTheMountainsOfMadness'', ''Literature/TheWhispererInDarkness'', The Shadow Out Of Time, and ''Literature/TheColourOutOfSpace'') and even suggesting many of the other mythos deities (such as Cthulhu, Yog-Sothoth, etc.) to be such. Despite this you will still find people who refuse to call a story like ''Literature/AtTheMountainsOfMadness'' science fiction even though it's about scientists discovering aliens and it was first published in ''a science fiction magazine'' (the same magazine that only two years later would publish [[Literature/WhoGoesThere a certain other novella]] that would be adapted into [[Film/TheThing1982 a certain horror film]]).

to:

* Creator/HPLovecraft is usually remembered as a horror writer (which is fair enough, given he popularized [[CosmicHorrorStory an entire subgenre]]). However, a lot of his later stories tended to lean more towards a sci-fi bent, with the monsters, still horrific and inhuman as ever, clearly shown to be aliens (some examples include ''Literature/AtTheMountainsOfMadness'', ''Literature/TheWhispererInDarkness'', The ''The Shadow Out Of Time, Time'', and ''Literature/TheColourOutOfSpace'') and even suggesting many of the other mythos deities (such as Cthulhu, Yog-Sothoth, etc.) to be such. Despite this you will still find people who refuse to call a story like ''Literature/AtTheMountainsOfMadness'' science fiction even though it's about scientists discovering aliens and it was first published in ''a science fiction magazine'' (the same magazine that only two years later would publish [[Literature/WhoGoesThere a certain other novella]] that would be adapted into [[Film/TheThing1982 a certain horror film]]).



* It can be said that the best-known author of that kind of "ghetto literature" gave their work a bent that set it apart from others of the same category, often combining it with another, usually entirely different genre. Creator/JRRTolkien's body of work had actually more in common with ancient and medieval mythology (which scholars usually don't dismiss outright as frivolous or unworthy of attention) than modern fantasy, though he pretty much gave birth to that genre. Creator/HPLovecraft gave his horror stories a strong scientific-fictional bent, often writing them in the form of letters, diaries or reports. Creator/JKRowling wrote a story that at that times reads more as a boarding school/coming of age/mystery novel, where the fantasy only offers the framework. Creator/CSLewis wrote children novels that also qualified as allegories. Creator/FrankHerbert's ''Franchise/{{Dune}}'' is set so far in the future that it might as well take place in an entirely different universe, and has strong fantasy elements in it. Creator/RobertAHeinlein included social criticism in his work. Creator/GeorgeOrwell's ''Literature/NineteenEightyFour'' and Aldous Huxley's ''Literature/BraveNewWorld'' are more comments on politics and ideology which might have been set in entirely different genres without altering the stories that much (in fact, Orwell pulled that off when writing ''Literature/AnimalFarm'' which has a lot in common with ''1984'', despite being the one in a sci-fi-setting and the other a fable).
* Marjorie B. Kellogg wrote a forward to an omnibus edition of her ''Literature/TheDragonQuartet'' series utterly blasting this trope. She points out that tales of the fantastic are one of humanity's oldest forms of storytelling, and the power of allegory that "genre" fiction holds make them not only more easy to appeal to a wide audience, but make the audience [[SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped more willing to listen to important messages.]]

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* It can be said that the best-known author of that kind of "ghetto literature" gave their work a bent that set it apart from others of the same category, often combining it with another, usually entirely different genre. Creator/JRRTolkien's body of work had actually more in common with ancient and medieval mythology (which scholars usually don't dismiss outright as frivolous or unworthy of attention) than modern fantasy, though he pretty much gave birth to that genre. Creator/HPLovecraft gave his horror stories a strong scientific-fictional bent, often writing them in the form of letters, diaries or reports. Creator/JKRowling wrote a story that at that times reads more as a boarding school/coming of age/mystery novel, where the fantasy only offers the framework. Creator/CSLewis wrote children children's novels that also qualified as allegories. Creator/FrankHerbert's ''Franchise/{{Dune}}'' is set so far in the future that it might as well take place in an entirely different universe, and has strong fantasy elements in it. Creator/RobertAHeinlein included social criticism in his work. Creator/GeorgeOrwell's ''Literature/NineteenEightyFour'' and Aldous Huxley's ''Literature/BraveNewWorld'' are more comments on politics and ideology which might have been set in entirely different genres without altering the stories that much (in fact, Orwell pulled that off when writing ''Literature/AnimalFarm'' which has a lot in common with ''1984'', despite one being the one in a sci-fi-setting and the other a fable).
* Marjorie B. Kellogg wrote a forward foreword to an omnibus edition of her ''Literature/TheDragonQuartet'' series utterly blasting this trope. She points out that tales of the fantastic are one of humanity's oldest forms of storytelling, and the power of allegory that "genre" fiction holds make them not only more easy to appeal to a wide audience, but make the audience [[SomeAnvilsNeedToBeDropped more willing to listen to important messages.]]



* Creator/NnediOkorafor writes fantasy stories for children and teenagers that use African settings and mythology as their basis rather than MedievalEuropeanFantasy, while still using many popular YA tropes. She's often the target of praise and panegyric for bucking the trend and bringing more diversity to literature, and many of her books feature quotes about her contributions to world literature and her timeless qualities. They often gloss over the fact that she ultimately writes fantasy (and ScienceFantasy) stories for teenagers. (However, ''Literature/AkataWitch does'' mention that the late DianaWynneJones was a fan... on the inside jacket.)

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* Creator/NnediOkorafor writes fantasy stories for children and teenagers that use African settings and mythology as their basis rather than MedievalEuropeanFantasy, while still using many popular YA tropes. She's often the target of praise and panegyric for bucking the trend and bringing more diversity to literature, and many of her books feature quotes about her contributions to world literature and her timeless qualities. They often gloss over the fact that she ultimately writes fantasy (and ScienceFantasy) stories for teenagers. (However, ''Literature/AkataWitch does'' mention that the late DianaWynneJones Creator/DianaWynneJones was a fan... on the inside jacket.)



* Creator/StanislawLem, the greatest of the greats of Eastern European ScienceFiction, has towards the end of his life displayed active hostility towards the genre, dismissing it as being about "talking dogs in flying saucers". While this might have been due to his general bitterness and disillusionment with the human race, earlier in his career he also preferred to label himself a "futurologist", and considered Creator/PhilipKDick the only author in science fiction worth his attention, a sentiment Dick didn't reciprocate[[note]]Not out of literary elitism. Dick was paranoid at this stage in life.[[/note]]. After the interview with the "talking dogs" phrase was published, some younger Polish authors expressed disappointment that their guru and source of inspiration endorses the ghettoization of the genre. On the other hand, one of those younger authors, Rafal Ziemkiewicz, has on many occasions spoken against labelling science fiction - and popular literature as a whole - as "worse" than high literature, arguing that popular literature is the field where many popular literary conventions are born before being picked up and embraced by the mainstream.

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* Creator/StanislawLem, the greatest of the greats of Eastern European ScienceFiction, has towards the end of his life displayed active hostility towards the genre, dismissing it as being about "talking dogs in flying saucers". While this might have been due to his general bitterness and disillusionment with the human race, earlier in his career he also preferred to label himself a "futurologist", and considered Creator/PhilipKDick the only author in science fiction worth his attention, a sentiment Dick didn't reciprocate[[note]]Not out of literary elitism. Dick was paranoid at this stage in life.[[/note]]. After the interview with the "talking dogs" phrase was published, some younger Polish authors expressed disappointment that their guru and source of inspiration endorses endorsed the ghettoization of the genre. On the other hand, one of those younger authors, Rafal Ziemkiewicz, has on many occasions spoken against labelling science fiction - and popular literature as a whole - as "worse" than high literature, arguing that popular literature is the field where many popular literary conventions are born before being picked up and embraced by the mainstream.



** When we're about subject of Poland, mainstream writer Katarzyna Grochola in one interview said she is toying with the idea of writing story set in a world with laws of physics working differently than in ours. Polish bigger speculative fiction magazine responded with short essay by its editor-in-chief in which he pointed out that this is the definition of science-fiction and welcomed her into sf crowd, subtly mocking the tendency of mainstream writers acting like they're doing something new and innovative and refusing to admit their work are just pretty standard science-fiction or fantasy.

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** When we're about on the subject of Poland, mainstream writer Katarzyna Grochola in one interview said she is was toying with the idea of writing a story set in a world with the laws of physics working differently than in ours. A bigger Polish bigger speculative fiction magazine responded with a short essay by its editor-in-chief in which he pointed out that this is the definition of science-fiction and welcomed her into the sf crowd, subtly mocking the tendency of mainstream writers acting like they're doing something new and innovative and refusing to admit their work are just pretty standard science-fiction or fantasy.



* Creator/TerryPratchett, however, ''is'' a fantasy writer and ''also'' has stuff to say. He's quoted as saying, however, that he doesn't like the term "MagicRealism", because it basically means "a polite way of saying you write fantasy and is more acceptable to certain people." He has also commented that ''all'' of his books are considered fantasy and nothing else, regardless of the other genres he dabbles in.
** He's also said that people from his publishers have told him that they've gone into bookshops and asked why his hugely successful books aren't being displayed in more prominent places. The answers amounted to "We don't like the fantasy to get out." [[note]]This is an author who has been compared to Creator/GeoffreyChaucer, Creator/CharlesDickens and Creator/MarkTwain by serious critics.[[/note]]

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* Creator/TerryPratchett, however, ''is'' ''was'' a fantasy writer and ''also'' has had stuff to say. He's quoted as saying, however, that he doesn't didn't like the term "MagicRealism", because it basically means "a polite way of saying you write fantasy and is more acceptable to certain people." He has also commented that ''all'' of his books are considered fantasy and nothing else, regardless of the other genres he dabbles in.
** He's He also said that people from his publishers have told him that they've gone they went into bookshops and asked why his hugely successful books aren't weren't being displayed in more prominent places. The answers amounted to "We don't like the fantasy to get out." [[note]]This is an author who has who's been compared to Creator/GeoffreyChaucer, Creator/CharlesDickens and Creator/MarkTwain by serious critics.[[/note]]



* ''Literature/TheTimeTravelersWife''- both the book and the film are usually listed as a romance, even though [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin the title sums up everything that makes it science fiction]]- it's about a woman who is married to a man who ''time travels''. Not only that but the way he time travels ''is'' given a scientific (if somewhat unusual) explanation without resorting to the supernatural, but best case scenario is for it to occasionally be labelled as fantasy.

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* ''Literature/TheTimeTravelersWife''- ''Literature/TheTimeTravelersWife'': both the book and the film are usually listed as a romance, even though [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin the title sums up everything that makes it science fiction]]- fiction]] - it's about a woman who is married to a man who ''time travels''. Not only that but the way he time travels ''is'' given a scientific (if somewhat unusual) explanation without resorting to the supernatural, but best case scenario is for it to occasionally be labelled as fantasy.



* Ancient, Medieval and even 19th century works that would be considered science fiction, fantasy or horror if written today are routinely and unquestioningly exempted from the disdainful judgments heaped on modern examples of the genres. Creator/{{Homer}}'s ''Literature/TheOdyssey'' includes fantastic voyages on magic ships, {{hot witch}}es, {{Enthralling Siren}}s, man-eating [[OurGiantsAreBigger giants]], [[OurGodsAreDifferent gods]], {{sea monster}}s and angry [[OurGhostsAreDifferent ghosts]]. ''Literature/{{Beowulf}}'' and the ''Morte d'Arthur'' have heroes, magic swords, and monsters. ''Theatre/TheTempest'' and ''Theatre/{{Macbeth}}'' have wizards and witches, ''Theatre/{{Hamlet}}'' has a ghost, and ''Theatre/AMidsummerNightsDream'' has TheFairFolk, {{love potion}}s, and [[BalefulPolymorph a jester who gets transmogrified into a donkey-man]]. ''Literature/{{Frankenstein}}'' is about as science fiction as they come - hard sci-fi too, by the standards of its day. Meanwhile, the tragedies of Creator/{{Sophocles}} and Creator/{{Euripides}} resound with brutal, gory killings, uncomfortable psychological horror to put Creator/StephenKing to shame, and suffering at the hands of gods every bit as alien and unfathomable as those of Creator/HPLovecraft. And then there's ''Literature/GulliversTravels'', with [[IntellectualAnimal talking horses]], [[FrazettaMan primitive humanoids]], AgeWithoutYouth, a FloatingContinent, giants, and six-inch-tall {{Lilliputians}} that tie Gulliver down to a beach. It seems that if it was written before the genre was codified and named, then it can still be good and doesn't count. But once we knew what sci-fi, fantasy and horror were, then nothing fitting their description could be worthy without extreme special pleading.

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* Ancient, Medieval and even 19th century works that would be considered science fiction, fantasy or horror if written today are routinely and unquestioningly exempted from the disdainful judgments heaped on modern examples of the genres. Creator/{{Homer}}'s ''Literature/TheOdyssey'' includes fantastic voyages on magic ships, {{hot witch}}es, {{Enthralling Siren}}s, man-eating [[OurGiantsAreBigger giants]], [[OurGodsAreDifferent gods]], {{sea monster}}s and angry [[OurGhostsAreDifferent ghosts]]. ''Literature/{{Beowulf}}'' and the ''Morte d'Arthur'' ''Literature/LeMorteDarthur'' have heroes, magic swords, and monsters. ''Theatre/TheTempest'' and ''Theatre/{{Macbeth}}'' have wizards and witches, ''Theatre/{{Hamlet}}'' has a ghost, and ''Theatre/AMidsummerNightsDream'' has TheFairFolk, {{love potion}}s, and [[BalefulPolymorph a jester who gets transmogrified into a donkey-man]]. ''Literature/{{Frankenstein}}'' is about as science fiction as they come - hard sci-fi too, by the standards of its day. Meanwhile, the tragedies of Creator/{{Sophocles}} and Creator/{{Euripides}} resound with brutal, gory killings, uncomfortable psychological horror to put Creator/StephenKing to shame, and suffering at the hands of gods every bit as alien and unfathomable as those of Creator/HPLovecraft. And then there's ''Literature/GulliversTravels'', with [[IntellectualAnimal talking horses]], [[FrazettaMan primitive humanoids]], AgeWithoutYouth, a FloatingContinent, giants, and six-inch-tall {{Lilliputians}} that tie Gulliver down to a beach. It seems that if it was written before the genre was codified and named, then it can still be good and doesn't count. But once we knew what sci-fi, fantasy and horror were, then nothing fitting their description could be worthy without extreme special pleading.



* Many viewers of ''Series/{{Charmed}}'' complain about the show's later seasons saying that it was meant to be a show about three sisters who happened to be witches and labelling the later seasons as "demon hunters who happen to live under the same roof". In something of hypocrisy, the same fans praise the third and fourth seasons despite them being more fantasy and action oriented.

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* Many viewers of ''Series/{{Charmed}}'' complain about the show's later seasons saying that it was meant to be a show about three sisters who happened to be witches and labelling the later seasons as "demon hunters who happen to live under the same roof". In something of hypocrisy, a rather hypocritical move, the same fans praise the third and fourth seasons despite them being more fantasy and action oriented.



* ''Series/DoctorWho'', although it's one of those properties about which it is practically impossible to somehow claim that it isn't science fiction (or science fantasy or what-have-you) - at least, not without completely losing all credibility - this didn't mean that the producers didn't give it their best shot; notice how in the run-up to the relaunch of the show and subsequent marketing, the producers were and have been careful to stress that the show is now more about relationships (and romantic relationships especially) than it previously was, with the whole 'adventures in time and space' which was (and is, it just has relationships on top of it) primarily the central focus downplayed. Considering that the show prior to 2005 was regarded as a creaky, slightly irrelevant old relic and post-2005 is now a major media juggernaut seemingly beloved by all - most especially critics - something obviously worked.

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* ''Series/DoctorWho'', although it's Despite ''Series/DoctorWho'' being one of those properties about which it is practically impossible to somehow claim that it isn't science fiction (or science fantasy or what-have-you) - at least, not without completely losing all credibility - this it didn't mean that prevent the producers didn't give from giving it their best shot; notice how in the run-up to the relaunch of the show and subsequent marketing, the producers were and have been careful to stress that the show is now more about relationships (and romantic relationships especially) than it previously was, with the whole 'adventures in time and space' which was (and is, it just has relationships on top of it) primarily the central focus downplayed. Considering that the show prior to 2005 was regarded as a creaky, slightly irrelevant old relic and post-2005 is now a major media juggernaut seemingly beloved by all - most especially critics - something obviously worked.



** Whilst the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation funded the show, promoted the hell out of their involvement before the first episode, then exiled the drama to obscure timeslots and then stopped sending BBC cheques.
* One of the multiple showrunners ''Series/FlashForward2009'' has had described it as "not being science fiction" but instead just being a "drama". Not only does the show have a clear sci-fi premise, the entire first half of season 1 (likely the only season) focused on the investigation into the sci-fi event.

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** Whilst the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation funded the show, promoted the hell out of their involvement before the first episode, then exiled the drama to obscure timeslots and then stopped sending the BBC cheques.
* One of the multiple showrunners of ''Series/FlashForward2009'' has had described it as "not being science fiction" but instead just being a "drama". Not only does the show have a clear sci-fi premise, the entire first half of season 1 (likely the only season) focused on the investigation into the sci-fi event.



** More than averted - after the original series ended, Creator/RodSerling made no bones about the fact that he had deliberately used the dismissive attitudes towards SF/F for the purposes GettingCrapPastTheRadar. After the end of ''Television/Playhouse90'' due to ExecutiveMeddling regarding controversial subject, he realized that he could make those same messages - and even stronger ones - by couching them in the 'exotic' forms of horror and science fiction.
* ''Series/TwinPeaks'', is also written off as MagicRealism despite its heavy supernatural elements.

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** More than averted - after the original series ended, Creator/RodSerling made no bones about the fact that he had deliberately used the dismissive attitudes towards SF/F for the purposes of GettingCrapPastTheRadar. After the end of ''Television/Playhouse90'' due to ExecutiveMeddling regarding controversial subject, subjects, he realized that he could make those same messages - and even stronger ones - by couching them in the 'exotic' forms of horror and science fiction.
* ''Series/TwinPeaks'', ''Series/TwinPeaks'' is also written off as MagicRealism despite its heavy supernatural elements.



* If you would like to see desperate literary snobbery coupled with hilarious pretentiousness, why not ask a professor of Shakespeare why the ghosts and witches in ''Theatre/MacBeth'', or the fairies and angels in ''Theatre/AMidsummerNightsDream'' don't qualify the plays as fantasy?

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* If you would like to see desperate literary snobbery coupled with hilarious pretentiousness, why not ask a professor of Shakespeare why the ghosts and witches in ''Theatre/MacBeth'', ''Theatre/MacBeth'' or the fairies and angels in ''Theatre/AMidsummerNightsDream'' don't qualify the plays as fantasy?



* ''VideoGame/MightAndMagic'' offers a strange example. Although the CRPG series were heavily into sci-fi (hand to hand with heroic fantasy), this was not obvious for the turn-based strategy titles, VideoGame/HeroesOfMightAndMagic. Thus, when the third installment of the series attempted to insert a faction called "Forge", containing sci-fi elements of the interconnected RPG series, the fans were so displeased that the developers [[http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes3ab/forgetown.shtml even received death threats (!)]] which resulted in the faction been scrapped.
* When learning the writing skill in ''[[VideoGame/TheSims The Sims 3]]'', the Sim in question will learn a different genre at each skill level (at level 0, they can only write fiction and non-fiction). At level 1, the Sims learns to write science fiction. At level 2, they learn the "trashy" genre. That's right, according ''[[VideoGame/TheSims The Sims 3]]'', trashy novels are harder to write than science fiction.

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* ''VideoGame/MightAndMagic'' offers a strange example. Although the CRPG series were heavily into sci-fi (hand to hand with heroic fantasy), this was not obvious for the turn-based strategy titles, VideoGame/HeroesOfMightAndMagic. Thus, when the third installment of the series attempted to insert a faction called "Forge", containing sci-fi elements of the interconnected RPG series, the fans were so displeased that the developers [[http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes3ab/forgetown.shtml even received death threats (!)]] which resulted in the faction been being scrapped.
* When learning the writing skill in ''[[VideoGame/TheSims The Sims 3]]'', the Sim in question will learn a different genre at each skill level (at level 0, they can only write fiction and non-fiction). At level 1, the Sims learns to write science fiction. At level 2, they learn the "trashy" genre. That's right, according to ''[[VideoGame/TheSims The Sims 3]]'', trashy novels are harder to write than science fiction.



** However, the spaceship simulation genre has suffered since the 90s, with barely a new release per year. More recently, with the advent of {{Kickstarter}}, the genre is trying to have its revival with campaigns such as [[VideoGame/StarCitizen a new project]] by Chris Roberts of ''VideoGame/WingCommander'' fame, [[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous a new]] ''VideoGame/{{Elite}}'' game, a TransformingMecha [[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/43153532/strike-suit-zero space combat game]] and the already-released ''[[VideoGame/FTLFasterThanLight FTL]]''. UsefulNotes/{{Steam}}'s friendliness to indie developers has proven a boon to the genre.

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** However, the spaceship simulation genre has suffered since the 90s, with barely a new release per year. More recently, with the advent of {{Kickstarter}}, Website/{{Kickstarter}}, the genre is trying to have its revival with campaigns such as [[VideoGame/StarCitizen a new project]] by Chris Roberts of ''VideoGame/WingCommander'' fame, [[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous a new]] ''VideoGame/{{Elite}}'' game, a TransformingMecha [[http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/43153532/strike-suit-zero space combat game]] and the already-released ''[[VideoGame/FTLFasterThanLight FTL]]''. UsefulNotes/{{Steam}}'s friendliness to indie developers has proven a boon to the genre.



* Creator/JamesRolfe discusses the "horror ghetto" in his ''Film/ExorcistIITheHeretic'' review, discussing how ''Film/TheExorcist'' was one of those rare horror movies that managed to get nominated for (and actually ''win'') awards. He mentions several movies such as ''Film/TheHurtLocker'' who have been given awards, then says "put some zombies and vampires into those movies and see how many awards ''they'' get." Of course, there are neither zombies nor vampires in ''The Exorcist'', which may or may not have been a factor in its success. With the exception of perhaps ''two'' George Romero films, probably only [[Film/NightOfTheLivingDead1968 one]], "zombie movies" are considered the epitome of "brainless lowest-common-denominator {{Gorn}} movie". Vampire movies are seldom considered much better, with recent [[Literature/{{Twilight}} developments in the subgenre]] certainly not helping.

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* Creator/JamesRolfe discusses the "horror ghetto" in his ''Film/ExorcistIITheHeretic'' review, discussing how ''Film/TheExorcist'' was one of those rare horror movies that managed to get nominated for (and actually ''win'') awards. He mentions several movies such as ''Film/TheHurtLocker'' who that have been given awards, then says "put some zombies and vampires into those movies and see how many awards ''they'' get." Of course, there are neither zombies nor vampires in ''The Exorcist'', which may or may not have been a factor in its success. With the exception of perhaps ''two'' George Romero films, probably only [[Film/NightOfTheLivingDead1968 one]], "zombie movies" are considered the epitome of "brainless lowest-common-denominator {{Gorn}} movie". Vampire movies are seldom considered much better, with recent [[Literature/{{Twilight}} developments in the subgenre]] certainly not helping.



** Genres themselves can be quite subjective - for example, ''HardBoiledWonderlandAndTheEndOfTheWorld'' is normally placed around "Literature", but it's a simultaneous Pastoral Fantasy and {{Cyberpunk}}.

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** Genres themselves can be quite subjective - for example, ''HardBoiledWonderlandAndTheEndOfTheWorld'' ''Literature/HardBoiledWonderlandAndTheEndOfTheWorld'' is normally placed around "Literature", but it's a simultaneous Pastoral Fantasy and {{Cyberpunk}}.



** Believe it or not, there are actually movements in universities to try ''averting'' these -- some professors believe that Pulp magazines and popular and contemporary fiction should still be critically studied the same way other works are, especially since [[DoubleStandard mythology and fairy tales sometimes get a free pass]]. China Miéville has also written an essay saying that science fiction ''should'' be considered equal to literature because many of them include a rational discourse of scientific literature.

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** Believe it or not, there are actually movements in universities to try ''averting'' these -- some professors believe that Pulp pulp magazines and popular and contemporary fiction should still be critically studied the same way other works are, especially since [[DoubleStandard mythology and fairy tales sometimes get a free pass]]. China Miéville Creator/ChinaMieville has also written an essay saying that science fiction ''should'' be considered equal to literature because many of them include a rational discourse of scientific literature.



* True art was not always angsty. Back in the 19th century fantasy was quite common in romanticism. It used to attract big crowds because they were useful as a tool of escapism to forget the horror that was happening in real life. With that in mind it should not be suprising that the ghetto of back in the day targeted a genre known as "naturalism". The fact that they [[AccentuateTheNegative accentuated the negative]] of the society of back in the day (as opposed to "realism", which showed both the good and the bad), that all of them had [[DownerEnding downer endings]], that they did not hide the fact that the society was full of misogyny, rape, murder etc. and that many of them were perhaps some of the most pretentious people around (Émile Zola, the codifier of naturalism, always said that he was in fact a scientist that examined human life) led them to have a big and extremely vocal hatedom. The very first Flemish naturalist novel to get some (as opposed to no) acclaim from critics was ''Het recht van de sterkste'' (which also employed a few fantasy elements) in 1893. By then the genre was around 30 years old. Nowadays, due to the belief that TrueArtIsAngsty the genre gets taught in French and Belgian literature classes, got acclaim and is also the genre of which the ghetto against it back in the day might get mentioned.

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* True art was not always angsty. Back in the 19th century fantasy was quite common in romanticism. It used to attract big crowds because they were useful as a tool of escapism to forget the horror that was happening in real life. With that in mind it should not be suprising that the ghetto of back in the day targeted a genre known as "naturalism". The fact that they [[AccentuateTheNegative accentuated the negative]] of the society of back in the day (as opposed to "realism", which showed both the good and the bad), that all of them had [[DownerEnding downer endings]], that they did not hide the fact that the society was full of misogyny, rape, murder etc. and that many of them were perhaps some of the most pretentious people around (Émile Zola, the codifier of naturalism, always said that he was in fact a scientist that examined human life) led them to have a big and extremely vocal hatedom. The very first Flemish naturalist novel to get some (as opposed to no) acclaim from critics was ''Het recht van de sterkste'' (which also employed a few fantasy elements) in 1893. By then the genre was around 30 years old. Nowadays, due to the belief that TrueArtIsAngsty the genre gets taught in French and Belgian literature classes, got acclaim and is also the genre of which the ghetto against it back in the day might get mentioned.
10th Jul '17 9:37:50 PM Skagit
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** Creator/AlecGuiness deeply regretted Star Wars and seemed to have very much believed in this trope. Amusingly his performance snagged him an Oscar nomination for Best Supporting Actor, he's the only actor to get an Oscar nomination for a Star Wars role to date.
*** Creator/ToshitoMifune was actually the first choice to play Obi-Wan and he turned it down for a similar reason, along with the fact he was self conscious about his English skills.
17th Jun '17 10:15:52 AM nombretomado
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* KurtVonnegut would sometimes state he didn't write science fiction, and spend his life fighting the label; despite writing novels such as ''Literature/MotherNight'', ''God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater'', ''Hocus Pocus'', ''Deadeye Dick'', ''Jailbird'', and ''Literature/BreakfastOfChampions'' (all of which contain no Sci-fi), his time-travelling alien-abducted protagonist of ''SlaughterhouseFive'' made critics constantly label him otherwise, at least until people started naming it as an example of "postmodernism".

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* KurtVonnegut Creator/KurtVonnegut would sometimes state he didn't write science fiction, and spend his life fighting the label; despite writing novels such as ''Literature/MotherNight'', ''God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater'', ''Hocus Pocus'', ''Deadeye Dick'', ''Jailbird'', and ''Literature/BreakfastOfChampions'' (all of which contain no Sci-fi), his time-travelling alien-abducted protagonist of ''SlaughterhouseFive'' made critics constantly label him otherwise, at least until people started naming it as an example of "postmodernism".
11th Jun '17 7:07:40 PM Schol-R-LEA
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** More than averted - after the original series ended, Creator/RodSerling made no bones about the fact that he had deliberately used the dismissive attitudes towards SF/F for the purposes GettingCrapPastTheRadar. After the end of ''Television/Playhouse90'' due to ExecutiveMeddling regarding controversial subject, he realized that he could make those same messages - and even stronger ones - by couching them in the 'exotic' forms of horror and science fiction.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.SciFiGhetto