History Main / SadisticChoice

16th Oct '17 12:35:18 PM SeptimusHeap
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* Independent Website/YouTube film ''Caitlyn'' ([[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2cu0wBw5w4&fmt=18 Part 1]] [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIlbFfFiS88&fmt=18 Part 2]]) forces a sadistic choice on a girl about 9 years old. She wakes up chained to a pole with some rather tight looking bonds, and finds a handwritten note right in front of her informing her that she is holding the key to the bonds in her hand. If she frees herself, her parents will die. If she drops the key, she will be a prisoner forever. [[spoiler:She drops the key. She wakes up in bed, but her parents are gone anyway. Talk about a DownerEnding.]]

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* Independent Website/YouTube film ''Caitlyn'' ''WebVideo/{{Caitlyn}}'' ([[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2cu0wBw5w4&fmt=18 Part 1]] [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIlbFfFiS88&fmt=18 Part 2]]) forces a sadistic choice on a girl about 9 years old. She wakes up chained to a pole with some rather tight looking bonds, and finds a handwritten note right in front of her informing her that she is holding the key to the bonds in her hand. If she frees herself, her parents will die. If she drops the key, she will be a prisoner forever. [[spoiler:She drops the key. She wakes up in bed, but her parents are gone anyway. Talk about a DownerEnding.]]
4th Oct '17 8:11:45 PM DarkSoldier
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* David was inspired by God [[DependingOnTheWriter or by Satan]] to take a census of Israel and Judah. Because doing so, he sinned greatly [[note]]The Bible doesn't mention why but according to most interpretations David was relying on his army to win his wars rather than on God. [[/note]], the prophet Gad announces that he has to choose his punishment: seven (or three) years of famine, three months of defeat at the hands of his enemies or three days of pestilence. The king chooses the latter option because he wants to be punished by God rather than by the men.

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* David was inspired by God [[DependingOnTheWriter or by Satan]] to take a census of Israel and Judah. Because doing so, he sinned greatly [[note]]The Bible doesn't mention why why, but according to most interpretations interpretations, David was relying on his army to win his wars rather than on God. [[/note]], the prophet Gad announces that he has to choose his punishment: seven (or three) years of famine, three months of defeat at the hands of his enemies enemies, or three days of pestilence. The king chooses the latter option because he wants to be punished by God rather than by the men.



** The stereotypical KillerGameMaster loves doing this, especially to [[TheCape paladin]] players.



** Another Goblins example occurred before the story began: [[spoiler:When Chief Kills-a-Werebear dies in combat and the goblin clan needs to elect a new chief, the clan fortune teller prophecises that if Kills' son becomes the new chief, he'll doom the clan to obscurity with his poor leadership. If Thaco is made chief, he will be a wise leader, but many goblins will want Kill's son to become chief anyway and he'll have to lead the clan through a brutal civil war. Thaco decides to exile himself from the clan so that the son can be chief.]]

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** Another Goblins example occurred before the story began: [[spoiler:When Chief Kills-a-Werebear dies in combat and the goblin clan needs to elect a new chief, the clan fortune teller prophecises predicts that if Kills' Kills's son becomes the new chief, he'll doom the clan to obscurity with his poor leadership. If Thaco is made chief, he will be a wise leader, but many goblins will want Kill's son to become chief anyway and he'll have to lead the clan through a brutal civil war. Thaco decides to exile himself from the clan so that the son can be chief.]]



* During WWII UsefulNotes/JosephStalin received an ultimatum from the Nazis: either he trades captive Field Marshal Paulus for his captured son Jakov, or Jakov will be [[ToThePain painfully]] executed on camera, and the record will be sent to the father. After a while, Stalin's response was reportedly[[note]]There's no conclusive proof that Stalin [[BeamMeUpScotty really said that]], although his decision was the same.[[/note]]: "I do not trade Lieutenants for Field Marshals". He, however, did whatever he could to save his son via other methods, but all it failed. At least, Jakov's execution was not as horrible as planned - just before it started he assaulted the guards and was shot dead. According to the Nazis, Jakov [[TheCoronerDothProtestTooMuch ran into an electrified fence]].
* Some have presented President Harry S. Truman's decision to [[UsefulNotes/AtomicBombingsOfHiroshimaAndNagasaki use the atomic bombs]] as one of these, given the potential dilemma of choosing between killing a couple hundred thousand Japanese or losing a similar number of Americans and killing an even larger number of Japanese. In his mind, and to most Allied citizens of the time, there was no question what the 'right' thing to do was. At the time, using the bombs to improve the efficiency of the Strategic Bombing campaign was not seen as a particularly horrible or unique decision, what Nina Tannenwald has called 'The Nuclear Tabboo' coming about in the aftermath.

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* During WWII WWII, UsefulNotes/JosephStalin received an ultimatum from the Nazis: either he trades captive Field Marshal Paulus for his captured son Jakov, or Jakov will be [[ToThePain painfully]] executed on camera, camera and the record will be sent to the father. After a while, Stalin's response was reportedly[[note]]There's no conclusive proof that Stalin [[BeamMeUpScotty really said that]], although his decision was the same.[[/note]]: "I do not trade Lieutenants for Field Marshals". He, however, did whatever he could to save his son via other methods, but all it failed. At least, Jakov's execution was not as horrible as planned - just before it started he assaulted the guards and was shot dead. According to the Nazis, Jakov [[TheCoronerDothProtestTooMuch ran into an electrified fence]].
* Some have presented President Harry S. Truman's decision to [[UsefulNotes/AtomicBombingsOfHiroshimaAndNagasaki use the atomic bombs]] as one of these, given the potential dilemma of choosing between killing a couple hundred thousand Japanese or losing a similar number of Americans and killing an even larger number of Japanese. In his mind, and to most Allied citizens of the time, there was no question what the 'right' thing to do was. At the time, using the bombs to improve the efficiency of the Strategic Bombing campaign was not seen as a particularly horrible or unique decision, what Nina Tannenwald has called 'The Nuclear Tabboo' Taboo' coming about in the aftermath.



** And this has become a real issue with the development of self-driving cars. A typical case is that a group of children jump out in front of such a car, such that the car could not stop in time to avoid hitting them. The car could instead swerve and hit a wall, in which case the driver would risk injury instead of the children. Done by a human driver it's a HeroicSacrifice; but as the programmer of the self-driving software for the car, whichever choice you program the car to make you are creating a KillerRobot. However, considering that good-quality cars are equipped with safety devices (safety belt and airbags, for example), the driver would be, at least theorically, better protected than the children, as these devices are placed inside the car and not outside.
** The Massachusetts Institute of Technology has now created a [[http://moralmachine.mit.edu/ online game]] called "Moral Machine" to analyze what the public deems as appropiate actions for a self-driving car. Currently (Feb 2017), the majority cares mostly about what saves more lives, does not care about whether or not to save themselves, cares a bit about upholding the law (running over jaywalking people), slightly favour saving females, prefer saving humans over animals, prefer young over old people, thin over fat people and "good" people (in the shape of doctors) over "bad" people (in the shape of bank robbers).

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** And this has become a real issue with the development of self-driving cars. A typical case is that a group of children jump out in front of such a car, such that the car could not stop in time to avoid hitting them. The car could instead swerve and hit a wall, in which case the driver would risk injury instead of the children. Done by a human driver it's a HeroicSacrifice; but as the programmer of the self-driving software for the car, whichever choice you program the car to make you are creating a KillerRobot. However, considering that good-quality cars are equipped with safety devices (safety belt and airbags, for example), the driver would be, at least theorically, theoretically, better protected than the children, as these devices are placed inside the car and not outside.
** The Massachusetts Institute of Technology has now created a [[http://moralmachine.mit.edu/ online game]] called "Moral Machine" to analyze what the public deems as appropiate appropriate actions for a self-driving car. Currently (Feb 2017), the majority cares mostly about what saves more lives, does not care about whether or not to save themselves, cares a bit about upholding the law (running over jaywalking people), slightly favour saving females, prefer saving humans over animals, prefer young over old people, thin over fat people and "good" people (in the shape of doctors) over "bad" people (in the shape of bank robbers).
23rd Sep '17 6:37:03 AM NotThisThing
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** When presented to a toy version of this dilemma, a young boy decided to TakeAThirdOption, as it can be seen [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lJ-0H2l9Os in this video]]. He picked the one (toy-)person, put it with the other five, so one track was empty and the other was with six figures. Then, he... [[spoiler: made the train run over all the six]].

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** When presented to a toy version of this dilemma, a young boy decided to TakeAThirdOption, as it can be seen [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lJ-0H2l9Os com/watch?v=-N_RZJUAQY4 in this video]]. He picked the one (toy-)person, put it with the other five, so one track was empty and the other was with six figures. Then, he... [[spoiler: made the train run over all the six]].
14th Jul '17 2:35:17 PM Luigifan
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Given it's such a hard choice, it's no wonder most good guys tend to TakeAThirdOption. It's practically unheard of for a hero to actually make this choice, and have it carried through before either the villain [[VillainBall breaks his promise]] or [[BigDamnHeroes the cavalry manage a rescue]]. If the one offering the choice benefits regardless of what the chooser chooses, its a XanatosGambit. If both choices lead to the same outcome anyway, then it's a MortonsFork.

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Given it's such a hard choice, it's no wonder most good guys tend to TakeAThirdOption. It's practically unheard of for a hero to actually make this choice, and have it carried through before either the villain [[VillainBall breaks his promise]] or [[BigDamnHeroes the cavalry manage a rescue]]. If the one offering the choice benefits regardless of what the chooser chooses, its it's a XanatosGambit. If both choices lead to the same outcome anyway, then it's a MortonsFork.



* The ''TabletopGame/YuGiOh'' card "Painful Choice", as the name implies, is all about putting your opponent in such a bind: you choose five cards from your deck, and he has to choose the one you get to keep (all the others are discarded to the Graveyard). Ideally, the player who uses this card is supposed to pick their five most powerful cards, meaning that whatever happens ''one'' of them is going to end up in his hand, and this card can combo with other effects that can result in the player getting ''[[HeadsIWinTailsYouLose all five cards regardless of what the opponent chooses.]]'' (Unsurprisingly, it's banned from tournament play.)

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* The ''TabletopGame/YuGiOh'' card "Painful Choice", as the name implies, is all about putting your opponent in such a bind: you choose five cards from your deck, and he has to choose the one you get to keep (all the others are discarded to the Graveyard). Ideally, the player who uses this card is supposed to pick their five most powerful cards, meaning that whatever happens happens, ''one'' of them is going to end up in his hand, and this card can combo with other effects that can result in the player getting ''[[HeadsIWinTailsYouLose all five cards regardless of what the opponent chooses.]]'' (Unsurprisingly, it's banned from tournament play.)



** Kaiba's {{Expy}} in ''Anime/YuGiOhGX'' Manjyome also used this card in a duel with his brother. Since Manjyome needed a certain Spell card, and his brother was a total amateur who believed Attack Points were everything, he offered the Spell and 4 Monsters as a choice, knowing his brother would let him keep the one card that wasn't a monster.
* In ''TabletopGame/MagicTheGathering'', there's [[http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=88803 Choice of Damnations]], which forces your opponent to pick a number. You then choose whether they lose life equal to that number or if they sacrifice cards they control until they're left with only that number of cards in play. Obviously, if they pick a number too low, you just force them to go on with only a few cards in play, but if they pick one too high their life can get dangerously low.

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** Kaiba's {{Expy}} in ''Anime/YuGiOhGX'' Manjyome ''Anime/YuGiOhGX'', Manjyome, also used this card in a duel with his brother. Since Manjyome needed a certain Spell card, and his brother was [[AttackAttackAttack a total amateur who believed Attack Points were everything, everything]], he offered the Spell and 4 Monsters as a choice, knowing his brother would let him keep the one card that wasn't a monster.
* In ''TabletopGame/MagicTheGathering'', there's [[http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=88803 Choice of Damnations]], which forces your opponent to pick a number. You then choose whether they lose life equal to that number or if they sacrifice cards they control until they're left with only that number of cards in play. Obviously, if they pick a number too low, you just force them to go on with only a few cards in play, but if they pick one too high high, their life can get dangerously low.



** Lore from the ''Avacyn Restored'' block has an example. Liliana Vess captures Thalia's companions and instructs her to destroy the Helvault (the magical prison housing a great many powerful demons, one of whom Liliana wants to have a word with) or let them die. Surprisingly, she chooses to release the demons. Ultimately it is a subversion of the trope since Avacyn, the angel protector of the plane, had also been trapped there, so things end up getting better.

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** Lore from the ''Avacyn Restored'' block has an example. Liliana Vess captures Thalia's companions and instructs her to destroy the Helvault (the magical prison housing a great many powerful demons, one of whom Liliana wants to have a word with) or let them die. Surprisingly, she chooses to release the demons. Ultimately Ultimately, it is a subversion of the trope trope, since Avacyn, the angel protector of the plane, had also been trapped there, so things end up getting better.
20th Jun '17 5:57:46 AM WillBGood
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Another strategy doesn't get a card in their hand, but get them in the Graveyard. For example, the most notorious use of this card at one point was to use it to summon the incredibly powerful [[GameBreaker Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning,]] possibly on your first turn. You chose any two Light Monsters, any two Dark Monsters, and any other card. No matter which card your opponent chose, you'd have the requirements to summon Black Luster Soldier; the choice your opponent made [[MortonsFork did not matter in the least]]. And there were ''lots'' of similar combos that could be used to achieve similar results.

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** Another strategy doesn't get a card in their hand, but get them in the Graveyard. For example, the most notorious use of this card at one point was to use it to summon the incredibly powerful [[GameBreaker Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning,]] possibly on your first turn. You chose any two Light Monsters, any two Dark Monsters, and any other card. No matter which card your opponent chose, you'd have the requirements to summon Black Luster Soldier; the choice your opponent made [[MortonsFork did not matter in the least]]. And there were ''lots'' of similar combos that could be used to achieve similar results.
18th Jun '17 2:35:43 AM JackG
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* ''WebVideo/KeyOfAwesome''. Lauren Francesca's ''Space Girl'' is presented with a SadisticChoice by the evil [[BrainInAJar Dr Brain]]. He's genetically engineered a fluffy animal designed to appeal to Space Girl's CutenessProximity, and wired it into the controls of his doomsday weapon. Will Space Girl sacrifice the cute creature to save an entire planet of [[WhatMeasureIsANonCute hideous green farting aliens]]? ToBeContinued...
31st May '17 4:56:52 AM LadyJaneGrey
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* In the ''ComicStrip/HagarTheHorrible'' strip [[http://hagarthehorrible.com/comics/may-31-2017/ seen here]], Hagar raids a castle, and then tells the owner to help them carry his wife's jewels back to their strip, or they'll hurt him. Seeing as he'd be hurt even ''more'' by his wife if he complied, the owner chooses the second option.
9th May '17 8:03:31 PM elemt
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** In 1942-3, Sicherheitspolizei (Si'po) and Ordnungspolizei (Or'po') police units in Poland were [[UsefulNotes/TheHolocaust ordered by regional Police authorities to dispose of their Jewish 'Hiwis' (non-German 'helpers') to render those regions ''Judenrein'' (non-Jewish)]]. Since many had grown very attached to their Jewish helpers, the first instinct of more compassionate troopers was to let them go. However, the realists among them went out of their way to kill them quickly and totally unexpectedly instead. The wisdom of doing the latter was proven in the weeks and months that followed, as Hiwis who'd been allowed to escape were encountered in 'bandit sweeps' or, as the troops called them given the usual victims, ''Judenjagd'' (Jew-hunts) - sometimes by the very people who'd let them escape. In one such incident a particularly cruel Order Police officer ordered one of his men, whom he knew had liked their cooking and suspected (correctly) had let them escape, to shoot them. He walked away. [[note]] Because it was actually a Voluntary Action (despite what his officer had claimed) he wasn't punished [[/note]]

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** In 1942-3, Sicherheitspolizei (Si'po) and Ordnungspolizei (Or'po') police units in Poland were [[UsefulNotes/TheHolocaust ordered by regional Police authorities to dispose of their Jewish 'Hiwis' (non-German 'helpers') to render those regions ''Judenrein'' (non-Jewish)]]. Since many had grown very attached to their Jewish helpers, the first instinct of more compassionate troopers was to let them go. However, the realists among them went out of their way to kill them quickly and totally unexpectedly instead. The wisdom of doing the latter was proven in In the weeks and months that followed, as followed Hiwis who'd been allowed to escape were encountered in 'bandit sweeps' or, as the troops called them given the usual victims, ''Judenjagd'' (Jew-hunts) - sometimes by the very people who'd let them escape. In one such incident a particularly cruel Order Police officer ordered one of his men, whom he knew had liked their cooking and suspected (correctly) had let them escape, to shoot them. He walked away. [[note]] Because it was actually a Voluntary Action (despite what his officer had claimed) he wasn't punished [[/note]]



* Some have presented President Harry S. Truman's decision to [[UsefulNotes/AtomicBombingsOfHiroshimaAndNagasaki use the atomic bombs]] as one of these, given the potential dilemma of choosing between killing a couple hundred thousand Japanese or losing a similar number of Americans and killing an even larger number of Japanese. In his mind, and to most Allied citizens of the time, there was no question what the 'right' thing to do was. At the time, using the bombs to improve the efficiency of the Strategic Bombing campaign was not seen as a particularly horrible or unique decision. What Nina Tannenwald has called 'The Nuclear Tabboo' simply did not exist at that time, because it hadn't been invented yet (by self-centred Japanese and sympathetic foreigners).

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* Some have presented President Harry S. Truman's decision to [[UsefulNotes/AtomicBombingsOfHiroshimaAndNagasaki use the atomic bombs]] as one of these, given the potential dilemma of choosing between killing a couple hundred thousand Japanese or losing a similar number of Americans and killing an even larger number of Japanese. In his mind, and to most Allied citizens of the time, there was no question what the 'right' thing to do was. At the time, using the bombs to improve the efficiency of the Strategic Bombing campaign was not seen as a particularly horrible or unique decision. What decision, what Nina Tannenwald has called 'The Nuclear Tabboo' simply did not exist at that time, because it hadn't been invented yet (by self-centred Japanese and sympathetic foreigners). coming about in the aftermath.
1st May '17 5:13:13 PM mlsmithca
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When it's a choice between two people, one or both of them will often [[MoreExpendableThanYou encourage the hero to choose to save the other.]] This is also a good time for the villain to put the hostages in separate {{Death Trap}}s with a timer that guarantees that he can only save one of them. If someone decides to choose for someone else, see MakingTheChoiceForYou. Many villains in this scenario are not above pulling a YouSaidYouWouldLetThemGo on the character once the choice is made, just to [[KickTheDog be a complete jerk]].

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When it's a choice between two people, one or both of them will often [[MoreExpendableThanYou encourage the hero to choose to save the other.]] This is also a good time for the villain to put the hostages in separate {{Death Trap}}s with a timer that guarantees that he can only save one of them. If someone decides to choose for someone else, see MakingTheChoiceForYou. Many villains in this scenario are not above pulling a YouSaidYouWouldLetThemGo on the character once the choice is made, just to [[KickTheDog be a complete jerk]].
bastard]].
22nd Apr '17 1:33:10 PM kazokuhouou
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* In ''WebComic/SailorMoonCosmosArc'', a brainwashed Chibiusa left Usagi with three choices: watch as she killed the other Senshi, kill her own daughter, or submit to and join Chaos. [[spoiler: Usagi lets Chibiusa kill ''her'' instead.]]
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