History Main / Realpolitik

29th Sep '16 12:39:21 PM Morgenthaler
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** JosephStalin was also one hell of a pragmatist - firstly, he [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapallo_Treaty organized]] mutual aid with Weimar Germany, as they were both troubled pariah states, despite Germany being a capitalist republic. He also abandoned Lenin's ideas of world revolution, focusing on "Building socialism in one country", and hijacked Trotsky's ideas of hyper-industrialisation. After Hitler's takeover, he still traded with Germany; then he tried to ally with the Entente against Hitler; after seeing their reluctance to stop him, he [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact negotiated]] with Hitler, despite his rabid anti-communism, while re-arming and organizing the army. During WorldWarTwo he united Russians with ideas of succession between TsaristRussia and the USSR, glorifying old-time heroes like Alexander Nevsky or Admiral Ushakov, painting old invaders like UsefulNotes/NapoleonBonaparte or Teutonic Knights as ANaziByAnyOtherName. After the war, despite anti-Semitic politics, he lobbied the UN for the creation of Israel.

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** JosephStalin UsefulNotes/JosephStalin was also one hell of a pragmatist - firstly, he [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapallo_Treaty organized]] mutual aid with Weimar Germany, as they were both troubled pariah states, despite Germany being a capitalist republic. He also abandoned Lenin's ideas of world revolution, focusing on "Building socialism in one country", and hijacked Trotsky's ideas of hyper-industrialisation. After Hitler's takeover, he still traded with Germany; then he tried to ally with the Entente against Hitler; after seeing their reluctance to stop him, he [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact negotiated]] with Hitler, despite his rabid anti-communism, while re-arming and organizing the army. During WorldWarTwo he united Russians with ideas of succession between TsaristRussia and the USSR, glorifying old-time heroes like Alexander Nevsky or Admiral Ushakov, painting old invaders like UsefulNotes/NapoleonBonaparte or Teutonic Knights as ANaziByAnyOtherName. After the war, despite anti-Semitic politics, he lobbied the UN for the creation of Israel.
20th Sep '16 5:58:42 PM DVB
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*** Its gotten so bad to where the Storm King conspiracy has done a 180; they're gonna ensure that ''Gil'' gets back on top (though they do have a back-up plan with Tarvek, albeit one done in such a way he is refusing against).
15th Sep '16 7:16:13 AM Nerrin
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* The ''TabletopGame/{{Eberron}}'' setting for ''TabletopGame/DungeonsAndDragons'' downplays the realpolitik elements of the setting in the core book but still plants the seeds for any GameMaster who wants to use them, mostly to subvert CharacterAlignment tropes in the rulers of the various nations, who just got out of a long and bloody war with one another:
** The nation of Breland is probably least interested in it - King Boranel is an old ChaoticGood adventurer at heart - and can get away with it thanks to the riches of Xen'drik that funnel through their land, but the laid-back attitude and fantastic wealth leave the nation rife with corruption and plagued by political factions lead by people who do not shy away from realpolitik.
** On the other end of the spectrum you have Aundair, whose NeutralGood Queen Aurala is TheHighQueen for her own people, but is working hardest behind the scenes to prepare for and get a jump on everyone else for the next big war she sees on the horizon, ''because'' it would be best for her people to be ready. But also because she thinks it would be [[EnlightenedSelfInterest best for everyone if she really did lead them all]].
4th Sep '16 9:41:02 PM ArchmarschalVonLowen
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** Palmerston said it better in the nineteenth century: "Therefore I say that it is a narrow policy to suppose that this country or that is to be marked out as the eternal ally or the perpetual enemy of England. We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." The phrase "Perfidious Albion" - referring to England's history of foreign affairs infidelity - has been recorded in use since at least the 13th Century.

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** Henry Temple, 3rd Viscount Palmerston said it better in the nineteenth century: "Therefore I say that it is a narrow policy to suppose that this country or that is to be marked out as the eternal ally or the perpetual enemy of England. We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." The phrase "Perfidious Albion" - referring to England's history of foreign affairs infidelity - has been recorded in use since at least the 13th Century.



* During the UsefulNotes/ColdWar, Finland was in the awkward situation of being a liberal democracy with a mixed economy but also very vulnerable to direct attack by the Soviet Union. Or should we say, ''renewed'' direct attack by the Soviet Union, since the Soviets had actually tried to conquer Finland before (to the point where Helsinki was desperate enough to turn to UsefulNotes/NaziGermany for help). As a result, Finland had every reason to want to join the West...but also every reason to not piss off the East. The result was a policy of doing everything in their power to avoid unnecessarily offending Moscow while trying to maintain good relations with the West; President Urho Kekkonen defined this policy as ''art of bowing to East without mooning to West'', and stated ''Find your friends near and your enemies far''. Nevertheless, the policy was criticized in some anti-Communist circles, to the point where [[TheChancellorsOfGermany Willy Brandt]]'s ''Neue Ostpolitik'' ("New Eastern Policy", i.e. detente with the Soviet bloc in general and EastGermany in particular) was derogatorily called "Finlandization" by many members of the [[PoliticalSystemOfGermany CDU/CSU]].

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* During the UsefulNotes/ColdWar, Finland was in the awkward situation of being a liberal democracy with a mixed economy but also very vulnerable to direct attack by the Soviet Union. Or should we say, ''renewed'' direct attack by the Soviet Union, since the Soviets had actually tried to conquer Finland before (to the point where Helsinki was desperate enough to turn to UsefulNotes/NaziGermany for help). As a result, Finland had every reason to want to join the West...but also every reason to not ''not'' piss off the East. The result was a policy of doing everything in their power to avoid unnecessarily offending Moscow while trying to maintain good relations with the West; President Urho Kekkonen defined this policy as ''art of bowing to East without mooning to West'', and stated ''Find your friends near and your enemies far''. Nevertheless, the policy was criticized in some anti-Communist circles, to the point where [[TheChancellorsOfGermany Willy Brandt]]'s ''Neue Ostpolitik'' ("New Eastern Policy", i.e. detente with the Soviet bloc in general and EastGermany in particular) was derogatorily called "Finlandization" by many members of the [[PoliticalSystemOfGermany CDU/CSU]].
26th Aug '16 7:46:16 AM FordPrefect
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** Allied {{Realpolitik}} after the war resulted in actions such as "Operation Paperclip", the de-Nazification of scientists and technical personnel who had built the V2 Rockets for Germany, often using slave labor from concentration camps in dreadful conditions. Indeed, more people were killed making these rockets than the rockets did on its own. The most notorious is Wernher von Braun. The reason for this absorption, the USA wanted to make sure that the Soviet Union, in the early stages of the UsefulNotes/ColdWar don't get a leg-up in the space race (they failed). Another notorious case is the story of General Scobie, a British officer appointed by Churchill to sideline the Greek partisans who had resisted Nazism and its collaborators, mostly because several of them were communist, socialist and leftists. This resulted in Scobie arming and putting into place Nazi collaborators and Greek fascists who unleashed three decades of dictatorship and this manifested itself in British and American troops firing at Greek crowds at a victory-rally.
** JosephStalin was also one hell of a pragmatist - firstly, he [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapallo_Treaty organized]] mutual aid with Weimar Germany, as they were both troubled pariah states, despite Germany being capitalist republic. He also abandoned Lenin's ideas of world revolution, focusing on "Building socialism in one country" and hijacked Trotsky's ideas of hyper-industrialisastion. After Hitler's takeover he still traded with Germany, then, he tried to ally with Entente against Hitler, after seeing their reluctance to stop him, he [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact negotiated]] with Hitler, despite his rabid anti-communism, while re-arming and organizing army. During WorldWarTwo he united Russians with ideas of succession between TsaristRussia and USSR, glorifying old-time heroes like Alexander Nevsky or Admiral Ushakov, painting old invaders like UsefulNotes/NapoleonBonaparte or Teutonic Knights as ANaziByAnyOtherName. After the war, despite anti-Semitic politics, he lobbied creation of Israel in UN.
** Let's not forget how the US protected the majority of war criminals from the infamous Unit 731 in the Japanese Imperial Army and giving them political and legal immunity from prosecution in exchange for their cooperation. The people in the Unit 731 are infamous for conducting horrific experimentation on unwilling ''live'' subjects (mostly Chinese and Koreans). By securing the cooperation from the war criminals, the US demanded that they shared the data obtained through those experiments with them.
* During the UsefulNotes/ColdWar, the rationale for the democratic US to prop up, support, and aid autocratic strongman regimes and dictatorships with dubious, if not outright brutal and horrific human rights records just to fight Communism, even overthrowing democratic regimes to make way for such autocracies, was based upon realpolitik. Whether it worked or was effective or not, or whether more humane decisions could have been made to fight Communism (ie: letting the countries remain democratic and try to work with them) is a very controversial topic when examining US history, [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgement and let's leave it at that]]. The U.S. has pursued a similar policy (and this Wiki will use [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgement similar tact]]) in their dealings with the Middle East, with the goals being (a) keeping oil prices reasonable, and (b) minimizing overt hostilities between Israel and her neighbors.

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** Allied {{Realpolitik}} after the war resulted in actions such as "Operation Paperclip", the de-Nazification of scientists and technical personnel who had built the V2 Rockets for Germany, often using slave labor from concentration camps in dreadful conditions. Indeed, more people were killed making these rockets than the rockets did on its own. The most notorious is Wernher von Braun. The reason for this absorption, absorption was that the USA wanted to make sure that the Soviet Union, in the early stages of the UsefulNotes/ColdWar don't UsefulNotes/ColdWar, didn't get a leg-up in the space race (they failed). Another notorious case is the story of General Scobie, a British officer appointed by Churchill to sideline the Greek partisans who had resisted Nazism and its collaborators, mostly because several of them were communist, socialist and leftists. leftist. This resulted in Scobie arming and putting into place Nazi collaborators and Greek fascists who unleashed three decades of dictatorship dictatorship, and this manifested itself in British and American troops firing at Greek crowds at a victory-rally.
** JosephStalin was also one hell of a pragmatist - firstly, he [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapallo_Treaty organized]] mutual aid with Weimar Germany, as they were both troubled pariah states, despite Germany being a capitalist republic. He also abandoned Lenin's ideas of world revolution, focusing on "Building socialism in one country" country", and hijacked Trotsky's ideas of hyper-industrialisastion. hyper-industrialisation. After Hitler's takeover takeover, he still traded with Germany, then, Germany; then he tried to ally with the Entente against Hitler, Hitler; after seeing their reluctance to stop him, he [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact negotiated]] with Hitler, despite his rabid anti-communism, while re-arming and organizing the army. During WorldWarTwo he united Russians with ideas of succession between TsaristRussia and the USSR, glorifying old-time heroes like Alexander Nevsky or Admiral Ushakov, painting old invaders like UsefulNotes/NapoleonBonaparte or Teutonic Knights as ANaziByAnyOtherName. After the war, despite anti-Semitic politics, he lobbied the UN for the creation of Israel in UN.
Israel.
** Let's not forget how the US protected the majority of war criminals from the infamous Unit 731 in the Japanese Imperial Army and giving them political and legal immunity from prosecution in exchange for their cooperation. The people in the Unit 731 are infamous for conducting horrific experimentation on unwilling ''live'' subjects (mostly Chinese and Koreans). By securing the cooperation from the war criminals, the US demanded that they shared the data obtained through those experiments with them.
* During the UsefulNotes/ColdWar, the rationale for the democratic US to prop up, support, and aid autocratic strongman regimes and dictatorships with dubious, if not outright brutal and horrific human rights records just to fight Communism, even overthrowing democratic regimes to make way for such autocracies, was based upon realpolitik. Whether it worked or was effective or not, or whether more humane decisions could have been made to fight Communism (ie: (i.e: letting the countries remain democratic and try to work with them) is a very controversial topic when examining US history, [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgement and let's leave it at that]]. The U.S. has pursued a similar policy (and this Wiki will use [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgement similar tact]]) in their dealings with the Middle East, with the goals being (a) keeping oil prices reasonable, and (b) minimizing overt hostilities between Israel and her neighbors.
16th Aug '16 9:23:11 AM AnimeOtaku
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* A variation on the above can also happen during general elections where there are more than two major parties, if a voter finds their preferred candidate is not popular enough to get elected so they will vote for a candidate they only mostly agree with to keep out someone they really dislike.
15th Jul '16 4:25:30 PM Discar
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* {{Doorstopper}} MedievalEuropeanFantasy and Realpolitik met one night, both got seriously drunk on History... and ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' is their DeconstructorFleet, surprise baby. Yes, you get dragons, magic, kings, queens, assassins, guards, [[TheFairFolk "faeries"]], taverns and bards: but, what you mainly get is a whole zoo full of [[GambitPileUp political shenanigans]] (national, international and personal) played out quite cynically, pragmatically and violently. People work together when they hate each other, refuse to work with others they admire because of differing goals, the setting up or killing of ''anybody'' to get ahead... the whole enchilada. Consequences for the smallest actions produce massive, unpredicted (not necessarily unpredictable) repercussions. Agendas and counter-agendas tighten around each other in the [[TitleDrop Game of Thrones.]] The best players play with cleverness and pragmatism (which often works for quite some time, barring the odd SpannerInTheWorks), some try to use it with a dash of cruelty (newsflash: it tends to work... until it very seriously doesn't), some try to mix in ''some'' idealism (iffy: often backfires when they get the mix wrong, or other players misread the moves): but, ultimately, luck has the final say on how the game plays out thanks to the ''sheer number'' of factors involved -- some quite [[OutsideContextVillain outside the known board layout]].

to:

* {{Doorstopper}} MedievalEuropeanFantasy and Realpolitik met one night, both got seriously drunk on History... and ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' is their DeconstructorFleet, surprise baby. Yes, you get dragons, magic, kings, queens, assassins, guards, [[TheFairFolk "faeries"]], taverns and bards: but, what you mainly get is a whole zoo full of [[GambitPileUp political shenanigans]] (national, international and personal) played out quite cynically, pragmatically and violently. People work together when they hate each other, refuse to work with others they admire because of differing goals, the setting up or killing of ''anybody'' to get ahead... the whole enchilada. Consequences for the smallest actions produce massive, unpredicted (not necessarily unpredictable) repercussions. Agendas and counter-agendas tighten around each other in the [[TitleDrop Game of Thrones.]] The best players play with cleverness and pragmatism (which often works for quite some time, barring the odd SpannerInTheWorks), some try to use it with a dash of cruelty (newsflash: it tends to work... until it very seriously doesn't), some try to mix in ''some'' idealism (iffy: often backfires when they get the mix wrong, or other players misread the moves): but, ultimately, luck has the final say on how the game plays out thanks to the ''sheer number'' of factors involved -- some quite [[OutsideContextVillain [[OutsideContextProblem outside the known board layout]].
2nd Jul '16 1:59:53 PM FordPrefect
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** Like The Stuarts for Charles I, all Alexander III really did was sweep the country's burgeoning problems under the rug and hope they would go away (forever). This just retarded the country's ecoonomic development and modernisation and made the shock of Nicholas II's reign (when everything seemed to happen at a break-neck speed) all the greater.

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** Like The Stuarts for Charles I, all Alexander III really did was sweep the country's burgeoning problems under the rug and hope they would go away (forever). This just retarded the country's ecoonomic economic development and modernisation and made the shock of Nicholas II's reign (when everything seemed to happen at a break-neck speed) all the greater.



** Allied {{Realpolitik}} after the war resulted in actions such as "Operation Paperclip", the de-Nazification of scientists and technical personnel who had built the V2 Rockets for Germany, often using slave labor from concentration camps in dreadful conditions. Indeed, more people were killed making these rockets than the rockets did on its own. The most notorious is Wernher von Braun. The reason for this absorption, the USA wanted to make sure that the Soviet Union, in the early stages of the UsefulNotes/ColdWar don't get a leg-up in the space race (they failed). Another notorious case is the story of General Scobie, a British officer appointed by Churchill to sideline the Greek partisans who had reisted Nazism and its collaborators, mostly because several of them were communist, socialist and leftists. This resulted in Scobie arming and putting into place Nazi collaborators and Greek fascists who unleashed three decades of dictatorship and this manifested itself in British and American troops firig at Greek crowds at a victory-rally.
** JosephStalin was also one hell of a pragmatist - firstly, he [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapallo_Treaty organized]] mutual aid with Weimar Germany, as they were both troubled pariah states, despite Germany being capitalist republic. He also abandoned Lenin's ideas of world revolution, focusing on "Building socialsim in one country" and hijacked Trotsky's ideas of hyper-industrialisastion. After Hitler's takeover he still traded with Germany, then, he tried to ally with Entente against Hitler, after seeing their reluctance to stop him, he [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact negotiated]] with Hitler, despite his rabid anti-communism, while re-arming and organizing army. During WorldWarTwo he united Russians with ideas of succession between TsaristRussia and USSR, gloryfying old-time heroes like Alexander Nevsky or Admiral Ushakov, painting old invaders like UsefulNotes/NapoleonBonaparte or Teutonic Knights as ANaziByAnyOtherName. After the war, despite anti-semitic politics, he lobbied creation of Israel in UN.

to:

** Allied {{Realpolitik}} after the war resulted in actions such as "Operation Paperclip", the de-Nazification of scientists and technical personnel who had built the V2 Rockets for Germany, often using slave labor from concentration camps in dreadful conditions. Indeed, more people were killed making these rockets than the rockets did on its own. The most notorious is Wernher von Braun. The reason for this absorption, the USA wanted to make sure that the Soviet Union, in the early stages of the UsefulNotes/ColdWar don't get a leg-up in the space race (they failed). Another notorious case is the story of General Scobie, a British officer appointed by Churchill to sideline the Greek partisans who had reisted resisted Nazism and its collaborators, mostly because several of them were communist, socialist and leftists. This resulted in Scobie arming and putting into place Nazi collaborators and Greek fascists who unleashed three decades of dictatorship and this manifested itself in British and American troops firig firing at Greek crowds at a victory-rally.
** JosephStalin was also one hell of a pragmatist - firstly, he [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapallo_Treaty organized]] mutual aid with Weimar Germany, as they were both troubled pariah states, despite Germany being capitalist republic. He also abandoned Lenin's ideas of world revolution, focusing on "Building socialsim socialism in one country" and hijacked Trotsky's ideas of hyper-industrialisastion. After Hitler's takeover he still traded with Germany, then, he tried to ally with Entente against Hitler, after seeing their reluctance to stop him, he [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact negotiated]] with Hitler, despite his rabid anti-communism, while re-arming and organizing army. During WorldWarTwo he united Russians with ideas of succession between TsaristRussia and USSR, gloryfying glorifying old-time heroes like Alexander Nevsky or Admiral Ushakov, painting old invaders like UsefulNotes/NapoleonBonaparte or Teutonic Knights as ANaziByAnyOtherName. After the war, despite anti-semitic anti-Semitic politics, he lobbied creation of Israel in UN.
2nd Jul '16 1:59:06 PM FordPrefect
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* One of the most well-known examples of this was the Western Allies allying with the Soviet Union during WW2. On one side, you had a group of largely democratic countries (most of which, admittedly, had large, distinctly un-democratically-run Empires) who had a strong history of anti-Communism. On the other, you had a totalitarian Communist state which had killed nearly a million of its own people as ideological enemies and imprisoned a few million more. What brought them together-- the ''only'' thing, even --was a common EnemyMine in the form of ThoseWackyNazis. While this did lead to beneficial co-operation between the two powers, it also lead to things such as what some have called [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal the Western Betrayal]]. Winston Churchill, a vehement anti-Communist, rather famously summed it up as:

to:

* One of the most well-known examples of this was the Western Allies allying with the Soviet Union during WW2. On one side, you had a group of largely democratic countries (most of which, admittedly, had large, distinctly un-democratically-run Empires) who had a strong history of anti-Communism. On the other, you had a totalitarian Communist state which had killed nearly a million of its own people as ideological enemies and imprisoned a few million more. What brought them together-- the ''only'' thing, even --was a common EnemyMine in the form of ThoseWackyNazis. While this did lead to beneficial co-operation between the two powers, it also lead led to things such as what some have called [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal the Western Betrayal]]. Winston Churchill, a vehement anti-Communist, rather famously summed it up as:



** Allied {{Realpolitik}} after the war resutled in actions such as "Operation Paperclip", the de-Nazification of scientists and technical personnel who had built the V2 Rockets for Germany, often using slave labor from concentration camps in dreadful conditions. Indeed, more people were killed making these rockets than the rockets did on its own. The most notorious is Wernher von Braun. The reason for this absorption, the USA wanted to make sure that the Soviet Union, in the early stages of the UsefulNotes/ColdWar don't get a leg-up in the space race (they failed). Another notorious case is the story of General Scobie, a British officer appointed by Churchill to sideline the Greek partisans who had reisted Nazism and its collaborators, mostly because several of them were communist, socialist and leftists. This resulted in Scobie arming and putting into place Nazi collaborators and Greek fascists who unleashed three decades of dictatorship and this manifested itself in British and American troops firig at Greek crowds at a victory-rally.

to:

** Allied {{Realpolitik}} after the war resutled resulted in actions such as "Operation Paperclip", the de-Nazification of scientists and technical personnel who had built the V2 Rockets for Germany, often using slave labor from concentration camps in dreadful conditions. Indeed, more people were killed making these rockets than the rockets did on its own. The most notorious is Wernher von Braun. The reason for this absorption, the USA wanted to make sure that the Soviet Union, in the early stages of the UsefulNotes/ColdWar don't get a leg-up in the space race (they failed). Another notorious case is the story of General Scobie, a British officer appointed by Churchill to sideline the Greek partisans who had reisted Nazism and its collaborators, mostly because several of them were communist, socialist and leftists. This resulted in Scobie arming and putting into place Nazi collaborators and Greek fascists who unleashed three decades of dictatorship and this manifested itself in British and American troops firig at Greek crowds at a victory-rally.
27th Jun '16 2:26:59 PM StarSword
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Compare HobbesWasRight, WellIntentionedExtremist, TheEmpire, MyCountryRightOrWrong, GambitPileup. Contrast MachiavelliWasWrong, as well as EnlightenedSelfInterest, where countries act to ''benefit'' each other in order to advance their own interests.

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Compare HobbesWasRight, WellIntentionedExtremist, TheEmpire, MyCountryRightOrWrong, GambitPileup. Contrast MachiavelliWasWrong, as well as EnlightenedSelfInterest, where countries act to ''benefit'' each other in order to advance their own interests. {{Proxy War}}s are a specific execution of realpolitik.
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