History Main / Realpolitik

19th Oct '17 5:09:55 PM TheWildWestPyro
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** Let's not forget how the US protected the majority of war criminals from the infamous Unit 731 in the Imperial Japanese Army and giving them political and legal immunity from prosecution in exchange for their cooperation for American bioweapons research. Almost all the core members of Unit 731 are infamous for conducting truly horrific experimentation on unwilling ''live'' subjects (mostly Chinese, White Russians and Koreans), such as vivisecting people while they were unconscious, throwing prisoners in pressure chambers to watch them die and herding men, women and children into huge chambers to be killed by the full effects of bubonic plague or frostbite. By securing cooperation from the war criminals, the US demanded that they shared the data obtained through those experiments with them.

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** Let's not forget how the US protected the majority of war criminals from the infamous Unit 731 in the Imperial Japanese Army and giving them political and legal immunity from prosecution in exchange for their cooperation for American bioweapons research. Almost all the core members of Unit 731 are infamous for conducting truly horrific experimentation on unwilling ''live'' subjects (mostly Chinese, White Russians and Koreans), such as vivisecting people while they were unconscious, throwing prisoners in pressure chambers to watch them die and herding men, women and children into huge chambers to be killed by the full effects of bubonic plague or frostbite. By securing cooperation from the war criminals, the US demanded that they shared the data obtained through those experiments with them. It should be noted, though, that the members didn't tell the Americans ''how'' they got the data, but simply the results. When the US government actually discovered [[TheyWouldCutYouUp just how the Unit conducted their so-called research]], many were so horrified that a number of ex-Unit members were pulled from US bioweapons projects and handed over to the Soviets, who executed or imprisoned them.
26th Sep '17 9:56:00 AM woerer1
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* One of the most well-known examples of this was the Western Allies allying with the Comintern during [=WW2=]. On one side was a series of deeply racist empires who despised but just-barely tolerated the racially-acceptable poor, [[BaitAndSwitch and on the other there were ruthless Communist dicatorships]]. What brought them together-- the ''only'' thing, even --was a common EnemyMine in the form of ThoseWackyNazis. While this did lead to beneficial co-operation between the two powers, it also led to things such as what some have called [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal the Western Betrayal]]. Winston Churchill, a vehement anti-Communist, rather famously summed it up as:

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* One of the most well-known examples of this was the Western Allies allying with the Comintern Soviet Union during [=WW2=]. WW2. On one side was side, you had a series group of deeply racist empires largely democratic countries (most of which, admittedly, had large, distinctly un-democratically-run Empires) who despised but just-barely tolerated had a strong history of anti-Communism. On the racially-acceptable poor, [[BaitAndSwitch and on the other there were ruthless other, you had a totalitarian Communist dicatorships]].state which had killed nearly a million of its own people as ideological enemies and imprisoned a few million more. What brought them together-- the ''only'' thing, even --was a common EnemyMine in the form of ThoseWackyNazis. While this did lead to beneficial co-operation between the two powers, it also led to things such as what some have called [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal the Western Betrayal]]. Winston Churchill, a vehement anti-Communist, rather famously summed it up as:
1st Aug '17 11:10:36 AM Theriocephalus
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->''"If we see that [[UsefulNotes/NaziGermany Germany]] is winning we ought to help [[UsefulNotes/SovietRussiaUkraineAndSoOn Russia]], and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, [[{{Realpolitik}} and that way let them kill as many as possible]]."''

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->''"If we see that [[UsefulNotes/NaziGermany Germany]] Germany is winning we ought to help [[UsefulNotes/SovietRussiaUkraineAndSoOn Russia]], Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, [[{{Realpolitik}} and that way let them kill as many as possible]].possible."''
21st Jul '17 12:29:27 PM gb00393
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*** He forges an alliance with the rival Tyrell family (via Littlefinger) by marrying his grandsons to them, the second most powerful family in Westeros, who help him crush Stannis Baratheon. He offers his enemy house member Roose Bolton (Robb Stark's second-in-command) the title of Warden of the North and Walder Frey (a potential Stark supporter) the lord paramount title of the Riverlands. Robb Stark is murdered by these two soon after. He'd also (as much as he'd prefer not to) sell out his own attack dog Ser Gregor Clegane to the Martells if it means solidifying the Lannister power base.

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*** He forges an alliance with the rival Tyrell family (via Littlefinger) by marrying his grandsons to them, Littlefinger), the second most powerful family in Westeros, who by marrying his grandsons to them and they help him crush Stannis Baratheon. He offers his enemy house member Roose Bolton (Robb Stark's second-in-command) the title of Warden of the North and Walder Frey (a potential Stark supporter) the lord paramount title of the Riverlands. Robb Stark is murdered by these two soon after. He'd also (as much as he'd prefer not to) sell out his own attack dog Ser Gregor Clegane to the Martells if it means solidifying the Lannister power base.
21st Jul '17 12:28:07 PM gb00393
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** His ArchEnemy, Tywin Lannister, is the embodiment of Realpolitik and it is extended to the rest of his family, whether they like it or not.

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** His ArchEnemy, Tywin Lannister, is the embodiment of Realpolitik and it is extended to the rest of his family, whether they like it or not. To wit, the continued success of the Lannisters beyond military might, and the sheer amount of gold the family rests upon is due largely to Tywin's cold, critical knack for impersonal politicking.



*** He forges an alliance with the Tyrells(via Littlefinger), the second most powerful family in Westeros, who help him crush Stannis Baratheon. He offers Roose Bolton (Robb Stark's second-in-command) the title of Warden of the North and Walder Frey (a potential Stark supporter) the lord paramount title of the Riverlands. Robb Stark is murdered by these two soon after.

to:

*** He forges an alliance with the Tyrells(via Littlefinger), rival Tyrell family (via Littlefinger) by marrying his grandsons to them, the second most powerful family in Westeros, who help him crush Stannis Baratheon. He offers his enemy house member Roose Bolton (Robb Stark's second-in-command) the title of Warden of the North and Walder Frey (a potential Stark supporter) the lord paramount title of the Riverlands. Robb Stark is murdered by these two soon after. He'd also (as much as he'd prefer not to) sell out his own attack dog Ser Gregor Clegane to the Martells if it means solidifying the Lannister power base.



*** On the other hand, while brilliant in politics, Tywin's less pragmatic attitude towards his family and personal affairs is ultimately what leads to his downfall.

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*** On the other hand, while brilliant in politics, Tywin's less pragmatic attitude towards his family and personal affairs is ultimately what leads to his downfall. Interestingly enough, his second term as Hand of the King follows a similar trajectory to Ned Stark's tenure. Even though he's a ruthless and feared administrator with almost no lengths to which he won't go to secure his family's power, he still fails to prevent an assassination of the king, is made into a XanatosSucker by Littlefinger, agitates an old enemy who has one of his family in their power to the point of conflict, and dies.
16th Jul '17 11:53:01 AM nombretomado
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* One of the most well-known examples of this was the Western Allies allying with the Comintern during WW2. On one side was a series of deeply racist empires who despised but just-barely tolerated the racially-acceptable poor, [[BaitAndSwitch and on the other there were ruthless Communist dicatorships]]. What brought them together-- the ''only'' thing, even --was a common EnemyMine in the form of ThoseWackyNazis. While this did lead to beneficial co-operation between the two powers, it also led to things such as what some have called [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal the Western Betrayal]]. Winston Churchill, a vehement anti-Communist, rather famously summed it up as:

to:

* One of the most well-known examples of this was the Western Allies allying with the Comintern during WW2.[=WW2=]. On one side was a series of deeply racist empires who despised but just-barely tolerated the racially-acceptable poor, [[BaitAndSwitch and on the other there were ruthless Communist dicatorships]]. What brought them together-- the ''only'' thing, even --was a common EnemyMine in the form of ThoseWackyNazis. While this did lead to beneficial co-operation between the two powers, it also led to things such as what some have called [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal the Western Betrayal]]. Winston Churchill, a vehement anti-Communist, rather famously summed it up as:
9th Jul '17 9:09:31 AM gb00393
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** His ArchEnemy, Tywin Lannister, is the embodiment of Realpolitik. He forges an alliance with the Tyrells(via Littlefinger), the second most powerful family in Westeros, who help him crush Stannis Baratheon. He offers Roose Bolton (Robb Stark's second-in-command) the title of Warden of the North and Walder Frey (a potential Stark supporter) the lord paramount title of the Riverlands. Robb Stark is murdered by these two soon after.

to:

** His ArchEnemy, Tywin Lannister, is the embodiment of Realpolitik. Realpolitik and it is extended to the rest of his family, whether they like it or not.
---> '''Lord Tywin:''' The house that puts family first will always defeat the house that puts the whims and wishes of its sons and daughters first. A good man does everything in his power to better his family's position regardless of his own selfish desires.
***
He forges an alliance with the Tyrells(via Littlefinger), the second most powerful family in Westeros, who help him crush Stannis Baratheon. He offers Roose Bolton (Robb Stark's second-in-command) the title of Warden of the North and Walder Frey (a potential Stark supporter) the lord paramount title of the Riverlands. Robb Stark is murdered by these two soon after.after.
*** He further explains this reasoning to Cersei after winning the war, noting that there's only so much the Lannisters can bully and push people around and the space for that is even less when they are broke and in debt. So Tywin has to curry favor with the Tyrells with marriage alliances even if he doesn't trust them at all:
---> '''Tywin:''' You don't form alliances with people you trust.
10th Jun '17 3:09:01 PM nombretomado
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** UsefulNotes/JosephStalin was also one hell of a pragmatist - firstly, he [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapallo_Treaty organized]] mutual aid with Weimar Germany, as they were both troubled pariah states, despite Germany being a capitalist republic. He also abandoned Lenin's ideas of world revolution, focusing on "Building socialism in one country", and hijacked Trotsky's ideas of hyper-industrialisation. After Hitler's takeover, he still traded with Germany; then he tried to ally with the Entente against Hitler; after seeing their reluctance to stop him, he [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact negotiated]] with Hitler, despite his rabid anti-communism, while re-arming and organizing the army. During WorldWarTwo he united Russians with ideas of succession between UsefulNotes/TsaristRussia and the USSR, glorifying old-time heroes like Alexander Nevsky or Admiral Ushakov, painting old invaders like UsefulNotes/NapoleonBonaparte or Teutonic Knights as ANaziByAnyOtherName. After the war, despite anti-Semitic politics, he lobbied the UN for the creation of Israel.

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** UsefulNotes/JosephStalin was also one hell of a pragmatist - firstly, he [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapallo_Treaty organized]] mutual aid with Weimar Germany, as they were both troubled pariah states, despite Germany being a capitalist republic. He also abandoned Lenin's ideas of world revolution, focusing on "Building socialism in one country", and hijacked Trotsky's ideas of hyper-industrialisation. After Hitler's takeover, he still traded with Germany; then he tried to ally with the Entente against Hitler; after seeing their reluctance to stop him, he [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact negotiated]] with Hitler, despite his rabid anti-communism, while re-arming and organizing the army. During WorldWarTwo UsefulNotes/WorldWarII he united Russians with ideas of succession between UsefulNotes/TsaristRussia and the USSR, glorifying old-time heroes like Alexander Nevsky or Admiral Ushakov, painting old invaders like UsefulNotes/NapoleonBonaparte or Teutonic Knights as ANaziByAnyOtherName. After the war, despite anti-Semitic politics, he lobbied the UN for the creation of Israel.
10th Jun '17 3:08:53 PM nombretomado
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* Alexander III of Russia once said: "Russia has two allies: the Army and the Navy". His reign of peace earned him the name of Peacemaker. However, he did initiate the Franco-Russian alliance of 1894 (which would play a crucial part in the run-up to WorldWarOne).

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* Alexander III of Russia once said: "Russia has two allies: the Army and the Navy". His reign of peace earned him the name of Peacemaker. However, he did initiate the Franco-Russian alliance of 1894 (which would play a crucial part in the run-up to WorldWarOne).UsefulNotes/WorldWarI).
8th Jun '17 5:16:25 PM AgentS7
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** Also a credit to the defeat of UsefulNotes/HillaryClinton in 2016. UsefulNotes/BernieSanders' supporters were disillusioned with Clinton's primary victory, especially in light of tactics used by the DNC that favored Clinton over Bernie. In the lead up and initial follow up, many feared that defeat would happen if enough of the Sanders' supporters were ticked off enough to vote for third-party candidates. As it turns out, they [[TookAThirdOption took a fourth option and didn't vote at all]]. It should be noted that this isn't the first time Hillary's primary support caused trouble. In 2008, she stayed in the primary for far longer than most Obama supporters wanted and turned to some tactics that turned off many independent voters. While the party still managed to win in the general election, a Democratic victory wasn't nearly as assured as it had been in the beginning of the primary season.

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** Also a credit This also contributed to the defeat of UsefulNotes/HillaryClinton in 2016. UsefulNotes/BernieSanders' supporters were disillusioned with Clinton's primary victory, especially in light of tactics used by the DNC that favored Clinton over Bernie. In the lead up and initial follow up, many feared that defeat would happen if enough of the Sanders' supporters were ticked off enough to vote for third-party candidates. As it turns out, they [[TookAThirdOption took a fourth option and didn't vote at all]]. It should be noted that this isn't the first time Hillary's primary support caused trouble. In 2008, she stayed in the primary for far longer than most Obama supporters wanted and turned to some tactics that turned off many independent voters. While the party still managed to win in the general election, a Democratic victory wasn't nearly as assured as it had been in the beginning of the primary season.
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