History Main / PointDefenseless

29th Jan '16 4:24:06 PM nombretomado
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* In ''SuperSmashBrosBrawl'', The Subspace Gunship has enough auto-turrets to literally fill the sky with projectiles.... yet they can't hit the broad side of a barn door. The destruction of the Halberd was implied to be a deliberate action on part of the heroes; once the smaller ships are released, the Gunship's turrets are suddenly slightly less accurate than your average Imperial Stormtrooper. Even Olimar's ship (shown later as barely capable of keeping up with the other ships) has little trouble avoiding the enemy fire.
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* In ''SuperSmashBrosBrawl'', ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBrosBrawl'', The Subspace Gunship has enough auto-turrets to literally fill the sky with projectiles.... yet they can't hit the broad side of a barn door. The destruction of the Halberd was implied to be a deliberate action on part of the heroes; once the smaller ships are released, the Gunship's turrets are suddenly slightly less accurate than your average Imperial Stormtrooper. Even Olimar's ship (shown later as barely capable of keeping up with the other ships) has little trouble avoiding the enemy fire.
24th Jan '16 9:57:51 AM nombretomado
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* While the Neuroi in ''StrikeWitches'' had defense arsenals after the manner of RealLife aircraft (with EnergyWeapons, no less), they could seldom overcome the heroines' dodge-fu, and the stuff that did hit was harmless ([[PlotArmor except when dramatically appropriate]]).
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* While the Neuroi in ''StrikeWitches'' ''Anime/StrikeWitches'' had defense arsenals after the manner of RealLife aircraft (with EnergyWeapons, no less), they could seldom overcome the heroines' dodge-fu, and the stuff that did hit was harmless ([[PlotArmor except when dramatically appropriate]]).
15th Jan '16 1:28:12 PM Sammettik
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Namespacing.
* In the final battle of HalfLife2Episode2, Gordon faces several groups comprised of a single Strider and several Hunters, and has several bombs that can destroy Striders in one hit at his disposal. However, if he tries to attach the bomb to the Strider, the Hunters will shoot it down before it can do any damage.
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* In the final battle of HalfLife2Episode2, ''VideoGame/HalfLife2 Episode2'', Gordon faces several groups comprised of a single Strider and several Hunters, and has several bombs that can destroy Striders in one hit at his disposal. However, if he tries to attach the bomb to the Strider, the Hunters will shoot it down before it can do any damage.

* GratuitousSpaceBattles has this as one aspect. Fighters/Bombers can easily destroy even biggest ship since to BFG cannons can't lock and fire fast enough. On the other hand, if fleet has even decent Point Defence systems, fighters are having hard time. All part of TacticalRockPaperScissors.
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* GratuitousSpaceBattles ''VideoGame/GratuitousSpaceBattles'' has this as one aspect. Fighters/Bombers can easily destroy even biggest ship since to BFG cannons can't lock and fire fast enough. On the other hand, if fleet has even decent Point Defence systems, fighters are having hard time. All part of TacticalRockPaperScissors.

* Nearly every Core (torso, that is) unit from VideoGame/ArmoredCore carried a point-defense unit against incoming missile, from the first game. This explains the barrel-like protrusions from many Cores. Starting from Armored Core 2, shoulder-mounted CIWS systems start to be introduced, from missile, laser and gun-based interception, to simple missile misdirection. Their effectiveness range from "acceptable", "total protection", and "dead weight".
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* Nearly every Core (torso, that is) unit from VideoGame/ArmoredCore ''VideoGame/ArmoredCore'' carried a point-defense unit against incoming missile, from the first game. This explains the barrel-like protrusions from many Cores. Starting from Armored Core 2, shoulder-mounted CIWS systems start to be introduced, from missile, laser and gun-based interception, to simple missile misdirection. Their effectiveness range from "acceptable", "total protection", and "dead weight".

* Somewhat averted in VideoGame/StrikeSuitZero as every capital ship is armed with point defense systems. Flak cannons however only have a short range, and are far more effective on shields than armor. Enemy flak cannons are only a real threat to the player early on, until the player realises that they can strike from out of range (or when the turrets are facing away from the player). The point defense on allied ships is damaged in the first few missions, so the player is relied upon to eliminate enemy torpedoes, and the flak defenses can be overwhelmed by multiple attackers. When there are only one or two attackers, or multiple defending ships, flak can be very effective at defense.
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* Somewhat averted in VideoGame/StrikeSuitZero ''VideoGame/StrikeSuitZero'' as every capital ship is armed with point defense systems. Flak cannons however only have a short range, and are far more effective on shields than armor. Enemy flak cannons are only a real threat to the player early on, until the player realises that they can strike from out of range (or when the turrets are facing away from the player). The point defense on allied ships is damaged in the first few missions, so the player is relied upon to eliminate enemy torpedoes, and the flak defenses can be overwhelmed by multiple attackers. When there are only one or two attackers, or multiple defending ships, flak can be very effective at defense.

* Very much averted with VideoGame/TeamFortress2's sentry guns, which can shred an entire team of enemy players in seconds if they go toe-to-toe or try to just run past. Of course, this is to compensate for their ArtificialStupidity -- they are plenty of ways to outwit them, although the gun's owner can make this more difficult if he's nearby. * Averted in ''[[VideoGame/{{Earth2150}} Earth 2160]]'' where Morphidian aliens can breed a type of airship fitted with dozens of lasers able to shoot down any amount of missiles.
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* Very much averted with VideoGame/TeamFortress2's ''VideoGame/TeamFortress2'''s sentry guns, which can shred an entire team of enemy players in seconds if they go toe-to-toe or try to just run past. Of course, this is to compensate for their ArtificialStupidity -- they are plenty of ways to outwit them, although the gun's owner can make this more difficult if he's nearby. * Averted in ''[[VideoGame/{{Earth2150}} Earth 2160]]'' ''VideoGame/{{Earth2150}}'' where Morphidian aliens can breed a type of airship fitted with dozens of lasers able to shoot down any amount of missiles.

* In VideoGame/JeffWaynesWarOfTheWorlds, the counter to fast-moving Martian flying machines is theoretically the AA gun and its vehicular counterpart, the mobile anti-aircraft array. However, the comparatively short range and low damage of these weapons mean that it's often just as effective (if not more so) to use a unit or two of [[TankGoodness armoured track layers]], whose weapons also hit instantly and do more damage.
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* In VideoGame/JeffWaynesWarOfTheWorlds, ''VideoGame/JeffWaynesWarOfTheWorlds'', the counter to fast-moving Martian flying machines is theoretically the AA gun and its vehicular counterpart, the mobile anti-aircraft array. However, the comparatively short range and low damage of these weapons mean that it's often just as effective (if not more so) to use a unit or two of [[TankGoodness armoured track layers]], whose weapons also hit instantly and do more damage.
14th Jan '16 1:13:44 PM Morgenthaler
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*** Not really, at least where the Universal Century Gundams are concerned. Cosmic Era point defenses are automated, whereas Universal Century point defenses are manned, which should stand to reason that the Cosmic Era ones ''should'' be able to hit people with names. Instead, the manually targeted ones from the Universal Century actually seem to achieve better hit rates where characters are concerned. Probably because being killed by an automated turret is considered a lamer way to die than being shot down by an actual person. **** Also Cosmic Era point defense weapons are mostly ballistic weapons, and most of the named pilots ride in Mobile Suits with Phase Shift armor, which takes no damage from solid weaponry (at least not as long as there's enough power to keep the armor activated). Quite a few times early in the series, during the stolen Gundams' fight against Strike and the Archangel, the Archangel's defensive turrets would peg the ZAFT Gundams, but they did no damage because of the armor. *** The CG opening movie for the video game ''[[VideoGame/SDGundamGGeneration Generation of C.E.]]'' shows a Murasame getting rather painfully torn to pieces by the ''Minerva''[='s=] CIWS.
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*** Not really, at least where the Universal Century Gundams are concerned. Cosmic Era point defenses are automated, whereas Universal Century point defenses are manned, which should stand to reason that the Cosmic Era ones ''should'' be able to hit people with names. Instead, the manually targeted ones from the Universal Century actually seem to achieve better hit rates where characters are concerned. Probably because being killed by an automated turret is considered a lamer way to die than being shot down by an actual person. **** Also Cosmic Era point defense weapons are mostly ballistic weapons, and most of the named pilots ride in Mobile Suits with Phase Shift armor, which takes no damage from solid weaponry (at least not as long as there's enough power to keep the armor activated). Quite a few times early in the series, during the stolen Gundams' fight against Strike and the Archangel, the Archangel's defensive turrets would peg the ZAFT Gundams, but they did no damage because of the armor. *** ** The CG opening movie for the video game ''[[VideoGame/SDGundamGGeneration Generation of C.E.]]'' shows a Murasame getting rather painfully torn to pieces by the ''Minerva''[='s=] CIWS.

*** Special mention has to go to ''Anime/GundamBuildFighters'', the series with probably the most extensive vulcan usage in the entire ''Gundam'' franchise. Reiji in particular uses the Build Strike's vulcans quite often, in part because they're its only built-in ranged weapons. In one episode Sei equips the Strike's vulcans with paint bullets to help "tag" an opponent's invisible {{Attack Drone}}s and make them easier to destroy.

*** In addition, as the first Vajra attack is bearing down on the colony ship, you can see Frontier's point defenses shoot down almost all of them, allowing only the one to get through on-screen (though more apparently make it through later).

** Seemingly the sole exception in the entire movie is when [[spoiler: Junior]] gets hit by a flak gun while raiding a German airfield. [[spoiler: He survives, only to be shot down again later on. He survives that time too.]] ** Worth noting, when they fly into the range of German AntiAir guns over a bombing target, the fighter pilots have to bug out and link up with the bombers again later, since there is nothing that they can do to defend the heavies from the large anti-aircraft guns. That's certainly acceptable since since the German fighters do the same to avoid friendly fire, of course.

*** These, at least, ''are'' targetted by machines. Of course, those same machines have probably downloaded all the major coursework from the ImperialStormtrooperMarksmanshipAcademy.

** It did have escorts. [[RedshirtArmy They just didn't have their radars on, never fired a missile or put their ship between the threat and the carrier.]]

** Notably, the Empire created an entirely new ship packed with smaller, faster firing turbolasers specifically to counter the Rebellion's overuse of fighters. It ''still'' isn't as effective as {{Old School Dogfight}}ing. *** The ''Lancer''-class frigate suffers from being AwesomeButImpractical: it's effective (the one the Rogues face in ''Rogue Squadron'' is only beaten by a MacrossMissileMassacre from the Y-Wings), but it's too expensive and requires too many crew (at least relative to its size and ultra-specialized role). It is also a victim of CripplingOverspecialization, having no chance against standard capital ships, even ones smaller than a ''Lancer''.

** Not only Solarian ships are point defenseless, as no ship can stand up to the fire an Apollo-equipped Manty podlaying superdreadnought is able to lay down, including themselves, so every ship can be considered point defenseless. However, no one thinks of this as a good thing, and everybody is looking for new ways to cope with the new threat. ** One of the recurring elements of the books is loving, detailed descriptions of how many missiles are whittled away--or not--by each layer of protection. They almost invariably end with "[X] got through." followed by a cut to the targets' experience, often with an OhCrap or several.

** The Race learns by ''Colonization'', though, and puts up {{Kill Sat}}s and defense turrets on their ships in orbit, especially since the three major human powers have developed space flight and regularly launch nuke-armed spacecraft on patrols. The Race's ships now feature not only their patented AM missiles but also point-defense machineguns, which form the second line of defense. Since both are radar-guided and computer-controlled, they rarely miss.

** Human attempts to improve their defense culminate in barrage ships which effectively fill the space in front of incoming missile streams with explosions.

** A first season episode with Galactica's Viper wing launching a raid on a Cylon asteroid base double subverted this trope. Even when using a KansasCityShuffle to fake out the Cylons' Raider defenders, and Wild Weasel tactics to suppress the Cylon anti-[[strike:air]]space defenses, the Viper pilots still get swatted like helpless flies due to the [[MoreDakka sheer volume of enemy fire]]. While the Redshirts are dying, however, [[spoiler:Lee manages to pull off an AirstrikeImpossible by flying through a tunnel to get inside the base's defenses.]] In Galactica terms, this would be called "Pulling a Starbuck".

** It's implied in the pilot episode that most of the [=PDLs=] are still aimed manually. While the AI can do it, a MacrossMissileMassacre can overwhelm her targeting capabilities.

** Potentially averted in the advanced aerospace rules. While there aren't many -- if any -- canon designs that do so, a large enough spacecraft operating under those can in principle be designed with enough anti-missile systems to render itself utterly ''immune'' to incoming missile fire, at least for as long as ammunition and heat sinks hold out.

*** Cataclysm also brings us a whole new way of averting this trope - the little Sentinel defense pods, which are armed with a single (upgradable) gun. A full dozen of them are needed to fully shield a ship, but when you achieve that the ship's shield itself [[MoreDakka dakkas]] attacking fighters with frightful effectiveness.

*** The fan-created mod ''Homeworld 2: Point Defense Systems'' attempts to address the problem directly in the name of realism. All capital ships get secondary guns dedicated to shooting down incoming missiles and fighters. The massive firepower of the capital ships makes up for whatever lack of ability the strike craft have in taking on the big boys. While the added point defense systems are far from perfect (again, [[TacticalRockPaperScissors balance]]), it is still a very noticeable aversion of this trope.

** Most fighters lack sufficient firepower to do decent damage to enemy ships. Their main goal is to disable subsystems. Higher-end fighters have lasers powerful enough to penetrate shields.

** Well, not so much RPS and much more appropriate defensive allocation. Any cruiser can stock more than enough anti-fighter/bomber point defense to shred even the largest cloud of them, but it'll cost them points that could be used for much heavier firepower, possibly leaving them open to capital ships. It must be pointed out that no quantity of fighters alone will be able to destroy a fleet that is prepared for them. ** Also, it's not really that the {{BFG}}s can't hit the fighter/bombers, it's that they alone fly ''under'' the Cap ships' shields, thus attacking the generally weaker hull ''directly''.

** Some fan-made mods take it even further: The Procyon Insurgency ups the fire rate on the blob turrets to the point where they're practically beam gatlings, making them ''extremely'' dangerous.

** Even then, there's still the fact that big ships take longer to lock on to targets than small ships. The best defense is to have some smaller ships in your fleet. Any fleet commander worth his salt will ensure this. ** This plays into the aforementioned damage such defenses do if they ''can'' lock smaller ships. At close range, the maneuverability of those small frigates is their only defense. If you're unfortunate enough to be in a frigate when a huge battleship locks its 1500mm railguns onto you from 150km away where the distance means you're effectively standing still, you'll be a cloud of dust before you even realize what's happened.
14th Jan '16 1:07:43 PM Morgenthaler
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* ''RedTails'' more or less plays this straight, especially for the [[RedShirtArmy hapless crews]] of the [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin Flying Fortress]] bombers. More or less TruthInTelevision there.
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* ''RedTails'' ''Film/RedTails'' more or less plays this straight, especially for the [[RedShirtArmy hapless crews]] of the [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin Flying Fortress]] bombers. More or less TruthInTelevision there.
14th Jan '16 1:12:08 AM Philweasel
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** The Millennium Falcon and Poe Dameron's stolen Tie Fighter both survive being right next to a capital ship for very significant amounts of time, and Vader's Super Star Destroyer is eventually taken down by fighters.
14th Jan '16 12:43:12 AM Underachiever
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*** Ultimately, defensive guns on bombers were themselves a good example of this. Defensive fire, especially from an entire formation, might with some luck (keeping in mind that these were for the most part "mere" machine guns in single or at best dual mounts against entire fighter planes with varying degrees of armor themselves) deter or even bring down a few interceptors, but the weight of the guns and extra crew needed to man them also slowed the bombers down and thereby made them easier ''to'' intercept, and especially in large formations friendly fire could also be a problem. It was always far more effective to put the anti-fighter guns on separate escort fighters that could tangle with the interceptors on their own terms and ideally draw them off altogether; early in the war those just didn't have the operative ''range'' to accompany the bombers all the way.
6th Dec '15 9:28:40 AM AFP
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** Strategic bombers, most famously the American B-17 [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin Flying Fortress]], were armed to the teeth, with more and more defensive firepower added in later models. Compare the [[http://www.aircraftarchaeology.com/B-17B%20Fortress_files/b17b.JPG B Model]] to the [[http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2008-4/2/12743.jpg G Model]]. Formations of these planes were very difficult to approach. The Luftwaffe's early-war tactic was to make head-on strafing runs[[note]]which were as terrifying for the German pilots as it was for the American bomber crews[[/note]], exploiting how the B-17 didn't have a chin turret for firing directly forward; once it added one, the Germans switched to trying to break up the formation with rockets, or using "[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schräge_Musik Schräge Musik]]" guns, firing upwards from the fighter instead of in its direction of flight.
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** Strategic bombers, most famously the American B-17 [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin Flying Fortress]], were armed to the teeth, with more and more defensive firepower added in later models. Compare the [[http://www.aircraftarchaeology.com/B-17B%20Fortress_files/b17b.JPG [[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:B-17B_Flying_Fortress_38-270.jpg B Model]] to the [[http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2008-4/2/12743.[[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Boeing_B-17G_2_BG_dropping_bombs.jpg G Model]]. Formations of these planes were very difficult to approach. The Luftwaffe's early-war tactic was to make head-on strafing runs[[note]]which were as terrifying for the German pilots as it was for the American bomber crews[[/note]], exploiting how the B-17 didn't have a chin turret for firing directly forward; once it added one, the Germans switched to trying to break up the formation with rockets, or using "[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schräge_Musik Schräge Musik]]" guns, firing upwards from the fighter instead of in its direction of flight.
6th Dec '15 9:24:44 AM AFP
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** And of course, as mentioned above, the purpose of all these defensive armaments wasn't so much to destroy the enemy as it was to defend the aircraft or ship or facility equipped with them. By having to deal with the defensive fire, the attacking pilots would have a much more difficult time engaging their targets. If the bombers could release their payloads over the target because their guns bought them a few more seconds, then it didn't matter that the fighter pilots shot them down moments later. Similarly, if a bomber pilot missed his target because the defenders' AntiAir fire prevented him from flying straight at the target, or spooked him into dropping early, then it didn't really matter if the bomber ''never'' got shot down.
16th Nov '15 12:23:10 AM TSBasilisk
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* Generally averted in ''LightNovel/HeavyObject''. Objects are equipped with hundreds of point defense weapons backed with a variety of sensors and a reaction speed allowing them to shoot missiles and planes out of the air. Quenser does manage to slip past them on occasion but it's dependent on finding a blindspot in the sensors and keeping to them.
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