History Main / OrderVersusChaos

12th Oct '17 7:43:03 PM Malady
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* Wiki/TVTropes: The epic struggle between {{SPOON}} and {{FORKS}} could be seen as this kind of conflict, with SPOON being order, and FORKS chaos. {{PLATTER}} and {{KNIVES}} represent two kinds of neutrality: balance and indifference, in respective order.

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* Wiki/TVTropes: The epic struggle between {{SPOON}} JustForFun/{{SPOON}} and {{FORKS}} JustForFun/{{FORKS}} could be seen as this kind of conflict, with SPOON being order, and FORKS chaos. {{PLATTER}} JustForFun/{{PLATTER}} and {{KNIVES}} JustForFun/{{KNIVES}} represent two kinds of neutrality: balance and indifference, in respective order.
12th Aug '17 2:37:38 PM valar55
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* Tsutomu Nihei's ''[[Manga/{{Blame}} Blameverse]]'' features this conflict prominently. In ''Noise'', the main character is a cop investigating a cult who worship the power of chaos who are kidnapping children to use for human sacrifices in their bizarre {{Magitek}} rituals. When they kill her, she is resurrected by a The Safeguard, protectors of order, but they turn out to be a pack of fascists who plan on disenfranchising and killing everybody who can't afford network implants and brainwashing the ones who do. Then in ''Blame!'', we see the aftermath of this; the cult succeeded in throwing the world into chaos, but since they're so poorly organized their descendants, the Silicon Lives, don't amount to much more than a bunch of roving cyber-barbarians. The Safeguard doesn't fare much better, as their directives become so corrupted that they essentially believe that ''everything'' that's not them must be exterminated.

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* Tsutomu Nihei's ''[[Manga/{{Blame}} Blameverse]]'' features this conflict prominently. In ''Noise'', the main character is a cop investigating a cult who worship the power of chaos who are kidnapping children to use for human sacrifices in their bizarre {{Magitek}} rituals. When they kill her, she is resurrected by a The an agent of the Safeguard, protectors of order, but they turn out to be a pack of fascists who plan on disenfranchising and killing everybody who can't afford network implants and brainwashing the ones who do. Then in ''Blame!'', we see the aftermath of this; the cult succeeded in throwing the world into chaos, but since they're so poorly organized their descendants, the Silicon Lives, don't amount to much more than a bunch of roving cyber-barbarians. The Safeguard doesn't fare much better, as their directives become so corrupted that they essentially believe that ''everything'' that's not them must be exterminated.
12th Aug '17 2:34:57 PM valar55
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* The [[UsefulNotes/{{Taoism}} Taoist]] creation story from the ''Zhuangzi'' is about a chaotic, bag-shaped god named Hundun ('chaos'), who lived before the universe existed, and two emperors called Shu and Hu (Brief and Sudden). Hundun treated Shu and Hu kindly, so they decided to repay his kindness. "All men have seven openings so they can see, hear, eat, and breathe," they said (nostril, nostril, mouth, ear, ear, anus, the other one). "But Hundun has none. Let's trying drilling some into him!" Every day they drilled another hole, and on the seventh day, Hundun died. [[ObstructiveBureaucrat People like the emperors]] [[AnAesop meddle with the primal world by trying to establish rules and regulations for it, thus killing it]].

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* The [[UsefulNotes/{{Taoism}} Taoist]] creation story from the ''Zhuangzi'' is about a chaotic, bag-shaped god named Hundun ('chaos'), who lived before the universe existed, and two emperors called Shu and Hu (Brief and Sudden). Hundun treated Shu and Hu kindly, so they decided to repay his kindness. "All men have seven openings so they can see, hear, eat, and breathe," they said (nostril, nostril, mouth, ear, ear, anus, the other one). "But Hundun has none. Let's trying try drilling some into him!" Every day they drilled another hole, and on the seventh day, Hundun died. [[ObstructiveBureaucrat People like the emperors]] [[AnAesop meddle with the primal world by trying to establish rules and regulations for it, thus killing it]].



** ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'' typically defines itself as Order vs. Chaos (or rather, Order vs. Disorder, seeing as how one of the factions in the universe is called Chaos). There is no real Good vs Evil. Although there are some individuals who could be considered good, as a whole the sides are basically [[BlackAndGreyMorality Bad vs]] ''[[BlackAndGreyMorality Worse]]''.

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** ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'' typically defines itself as Order vs. Chaos (or rather, Order vs. Disorder, seeing as how one of the factions in the universe is called ''called'' Chaos). There is no real Good vs Evil. Although there are some individuals who could be considered good, as a whole the sides are basically [[BlackAndGreyMorality Bad vs]] ''[[BlackAndGreyMorality Worse]]''.



** The 2-part opening episode of season 5 is based on this, with the villainess, Starlight Glimmer, having determined that even so minor a form of chaos as "ponies having individual talents and specialties" is an evil she cannot tolerate. Leading her to strip all ponies under her rule of their cutie marks and, with them, their special talents. Naturally, the Mane Six have to stop her and give them all back.

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** The 2-part opening episode of season 5 is based on this, with the villainess, Starlight Glimmer, having determined that even so minor a form of chaos as "ponies having individual talents and specialties" is an evil she cannot tolerate. Leading her to strip all ponies under her rule of their cutie marks and, and with them, these, their special talents. Naturally, the Mane Six have to stop her and give them all back.
9th Aug '17 11:33:28 PM PaulA
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* In ''OneFlewOverTheCuckoosNest'', [=McMurphy=] represents Chaos and Nurse Ratched represents Order. Chaos is definitely the good side here.

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* In ''OneFlewOverTheCuckoosNest'', ''Literature/OneFlewOverTheCuckoosNest'', [=McMurphy=] represents Chaos and Nurse Ratched represents Order. Chaos is definitely the good side here.
26th Jul '17 7:34:56 AM BeerBaron
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** The CreationMyth for most religions of Tamriel generally follows a pattern that, in the pre-creation universe, there were two opposing primordial forces - Stasis (Order) and Change (Chaos). A few of the religions [[AnthropomorphicPersonification anthropomorphize]] these forces into beings most commonly known as Anu and Padomay, respectively. The interplay between these two forces led to Nir, or Creation. Nir loved Anu, which Padomay hated. Padomay wounded Nir, but before dying, she gave birth to twelve worlds. Padomay shattered these worlds but was stopped by Anu, who drove Padomay away. Anu salvaged the pieces of these worlds to create one world, Nirn. When Padomay returned, the two fought, spilling their blood. Anu pulled Padomay outside of time itself, ending his threat to creation. From the blood of Anu and Padomay came the et'Ada, or "original spirits."

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** The primary CreationMyth for most religions of Tamriel generally follows a pattern that, in the pre-creation universe, "void", there were two opposing primordial forces - Stasis (Order) and Change (Chaos). A few of the religions [[AnthropomorphicPersonification anthropomorphize]] these forces into beings most commonly known as Anu and Padomay, respectively. The interplay between these two forces led to Nir, or Creation. Creation, sometimes anthropomorphized as the female entity "Nir". Nir loved favored Anu, [[DrivenByEnvy which angered Padomay]]. Padomay hated. Padomay wounded Nir, but before dying, killed Nir and [[EarthShatteringKaboom shattered the twelve worlds]] she gave birth to twelve worlds. Padomay shattered these worlds but was stopped by Anu, who drove Padomay away. to. Anu then wounded Padomay, presuming him dead. Anu salvaged the pieces of these the twelve worlds to create one world, world: Nirn. When Padomay returned, the two fought, spilling their blood. returned and wounded Anu, seeking to destroy Nirn. Anu then [[TakingYouWithMe pulled Padomay and himself outside of time itself, time]], ending his Padomay's threat to creation. creation "forever". From the blood [[PiecesOfGod intermingling of Anu and Padomay their spilled blood]] came the et'Ada, "et'Ada", or "original spirits." spirits", who would go on to become either [[OurGodsAreDifferent the Aedra or the Daedra]] depending on their actions during creation. (Some myths state that the Aedra come from the mixed blood of Anu and Padomay, while the Daedra come purely from the blood of Padomay).
16th Jul '17 8:25:33 AM CaptainCrawdad
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* In ''Literature/TheCatInTheHat'', there is a struggle between the fish (order) and the cat (chaos). The cat isn't strictly bad, since he brightens what would have been an otherwise boring day, but it's portrayed as a good thing when the house returns to order.
** When the Cat returns in ''TheCatInTheHatComesBack'', the children greet him with hostility and make it clear that, fun or not, the chaos he brings is NOT welcome.

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* In ''Literature/TheCatInTheHat'', there is a struggle between the fish (order) and the cat (chaos). The cat isn't strictly bad, since he brightens what would have been an otherwise boring day, but it's portrayed as a good thing when the house returns to order.
**
order. When the Cat returns in ''TheCatInTheHatComesBack'', the children greet him with hostility and make it clear that, fun or not, the chaos he brings is NOT welcome.



* The works of Creator/MichaelMoorcock, especially ''Literature/TheElricSaga'' and ''{{Corum}}'' series, where the Lords of Chaos and the Lords of Law pick Champions to fight for them. Neither Order nor Chaos are portrayed as very nice.
** It's pointed out in the books: Chaos means that every possibility is allowed (symbolized by the eight-arrow symbol), but at the end, you'll just move back and forth and get to nowhere. Order (symbolized by a straight arrow) means that you have direction, but exclude some possibilities -- in the worst case, all of them. A world gone too far in Chaos is one where shape cannot be maintained and horrible things will try to eat you. A world gone too far in law will eventually become a featureless white plane. And although Order has a superficial appearance of being Good, and Chaos of being Evil; the true Good is, in fact, the Balance, with Evil being the extremes of either Order or Chaos.
*** It's heavily implied, if not outright stated in several Moorcock stories that the true 'good' is in fact mankind finally growing up, taking charge of and responsibility for its own destiny, and ceasing to depend on 'higher powers' that it may actually have propped up itself in the first place. {{Corum}}'s Swords Trilogy ends with [[spoiler:both Law and Chaos banished from his world]], [[Literature/TheElricSaga Elric]]'s story ends with [[spoiler:his world destroyed and replaced with one in which the gods have little influence]], and the final story of the Erekosë saga implies that [[spoiler:Law, Chaos, and the Balance were destroyed]].

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* The works of Creator/MichaelMoorcock, especially ''Literature/TheElricSaga'' and ''{{Corum}}'' series, where the Lords of Chaos and the Lords of Law pick Champions to fight for them. Neither Order nor Chaos are portrayed as very nice.
**
nice. It's pointed out in the books: Chaos means that every possibility is allowed (symbolized by the eight-arrow symbol), but at the end, you'll just move back and forth and get to nowhere. Order (symbolized by a straight arrow) means that you have direction, but exclude some possibilities -- in the worst case, all of them. A world gone too far in Chaos is one where shape cannot be maintained and horrible things will try to eat you. A world gone too far in law will eventually become a featureless white plane. And although Order has a superficial appearance of being Good, and Chaos of being Evil; the true Good is, in fact, the Balance, with Evil being the extremes of either Order or Chaos.
*** It's heavily implied, if not outright stated in several Moorcock stories that the true 'good' is in fact mankind finally growing up, taking charge of and responsibility for its own destiny, and ceasing to depend on 'higher powers' that it may actually have propped up itself in the first place. {{Corum}}'s Swords Trilogy ends with [[spoiler:both Law and Chaos banished from his world]], [[Literature/TheElricSaga Elric]]'s story ends with [[spoiler:his world destroyed and replaced with one in which the gods have little influence]], and the final story of the Erekosë saga implies that [[spoiler:Law, Chaos, and the Balance were destroyed]].
Chaos.



** Two of the power players (if not the main two) in Westeros embody this trope: the power-hungry Littlefinger, who advances in the world by [[XanatosSpeedChess causing chaos and using it to his advantage]], and [[spoiler:Varys the Spider]], who wants to restore order (specifically, [[spoiler:the old order]]) and stabilise the realm.
* Creator/RogerZelazny's ''Literature/TheChroniclesOfAmber'' also had Order and Chaos, respectively embodied by the Unicorn/Pattern and the Serpent/Logrus, as the main cosmological forces of his [[TheMultiverse multiverse]]. In the second series, they were rather insistent on main character Merlin picking a side, much to his annoyance. Too much imbalance was especially said to endanger the existence of the universe.
** Also noteworthy that families ruling Amber and Courts of Chaos both have elements of the opposite in them - Chaos is much more honorable and has complicated form of hierarchy within which all intrigues and schemes happens, while children of Oberon are more or less pragmatic, backstabbing manipulators constantly changing aliances between one another and don't even mantain illusion of hierarchy among them.

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** Two of the power players (if not the main two) in Westeros embody this trope: the power-hungry Littlefinger, who advances in the world by [[XanatosSpeedChess causing chaos and using it to his advantage]], and [[spoiler:Varys the Spider]], who wants to restore order (specifically, [[spoiler:the old order]]) and stabilise the realm.
* Creator/RogerZelazny's ''Literature/TheChroniclesOfAmber'' also had Order and Chaos, respectively embodied by the Unicorn/Pattern and the Serpent/Logrus, as the main cosmological forces of his [[TheMultiverse multiverse]]. In the second series, they were rather insistent on main character Merlin picking a side, much to his annoyance. Too much imbalance was especially said to endanger the existence of the universe.
** Also
universe. It's also noteworthy that families ruling Amber and Courts of Chaos both have elements of the opposite in them - Chaos is much more honorable and has complicated form of hierarchy within which all intrigues and schemes happens, while children of Oberon are more or less pragmatic, backstabbing manipulators constantly changing aliances between one another and don't even mantain illusion of hierarchy among them.



** However, the Order mages aren't exactly pinnacles of goodness either. The sole country run by Order mages exiles anyone who isn't orderly enough, and the Order mages tend to cause lots of collateral damage when fighting the Chaos mages.
** As presented in the earlier books, Order mages tend to slowly become more dedicated to (and fixed in) their causes (good ''or'' evil), while Chaos mages tend to become less so (and thus self-centered and increasingly amoral, but less capable of intentionally being pure good ''or'' pure evil). Later, the series seems to drift more towards making [[YinYangBomb balance]] the only "real" good solution.



** To even ''understand'' the book, you have to have some mental grip on the concept of Chaos.
** According to UsefulNotes/{{Discordianism}}, both Order and Disorder are illusions; there is only Chaos, which contains absolutely everything. They choose whether they want to approach matters in a chaotic or orderly fashion depending on which one they consider more creative and interesting for the moment; it's no coincidence that their ideal human is a RenaissanceMan; science and art are orderly concepts, but they are also creative.
16th Jul '17 6:34:10 AM SeptimusHeap
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* A mostly subliminal but ever-present theme on ''GameOfThrones'', referenced most directly during a conversation between Varys and Littlefinger. Varys works for the good of the realm, and because of his powerless upbringing understands exactly what happens to the weak when there is no order or realm to protect them. Littlefinger, on the other hand, rebels against a system that would relegate him to a life as an irrelevant hedge lord, and sees chaos as a way to ensure his rise to power. Varys describes chaos as "a gaping pit waiting to swallow us all," while Littlefinger describes it as a ladder for the strong to climb. They're both right.

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* A mostly subliminal but ever-present theme on ''GameOfThrones'', ''Series/GameOfThrones'', referenced most directly during a conversation between Varys and Littlefinger. Varys works for the good of the realm, and because of his powerless upbringing understands exactly what happens to the weak when there is no order or realm to protect them. Littlefinger, on the other hand, rebels against a system that would relegate him to a life as an irrelevant hedge lord, and sees chaos as a way to ensure his rise to power. Varys describes chaos as "a gaping pit waiting to swallow us all," while Littlefinger describes it as a ladder for the strong to climb. They're both right.
15th Jul '17 5:45:12 PM Kadorhal
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* In the ''Franchise/MetalGear'' franchise, Solid Snake would do battle against both terrorists (representing chaos) ''and'' politicians (representing law), both of whom threatened to destroy the world with their war with each other.

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* In the ''Franchise/MetalGear'' ''VideoGame/MetalGear'' franchise, Solid Snake would do battle against both terrorists (representing chaos) ''and'' politicians (representing law), both of whom threatened to destroy the world with their war with each other.



-->'''Fanatic Collectivist description''': "The purpose of the individual is simple; strengthen the collective. To enter the blackness of space we move as one, and we shall not be weakened by wanton separatism."
-->'''Fanatic Individualist description''': "We must recognise that 'society' is but a convenient fiction, the by-product of individuals working toward parallel, overlapping, and contradictory goals. As it should be."

to:

-->'''Fanatic Collectivist description''': "The purpose of the individual is simple; strengthen the collective. To enter the blackness of space we move as one, and we shall not be weakened by wanton separatism."
-->'''Fanatic
"\\
'''Fanatic
Individualist description''': "We must recognise that 'society' is but a convenient fiction, the by-product of individuals working toward parallel, overlapping, and contradictory goals. As it should be."


Added DiffLines:

* ''VideoGame/SWAT3'' briefly touches on this with the [[ArcWords recurring euphemism]] ({{deadly|Euphemism}} or otherwise, depending on how you play) of "bringing order to chaos" - i.e. removing, whether by arresting or neutralizing, any armed and antagonistic individuals who are currently threatening the safety and well-being of your squad of SWAT officers or any civilians.
28th Jun '17 4:04:26 PM Theriocephalus
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* In ''TabletopGame/MagicTheGathering'', the conflict between White and Red is the conflict between Order and Chaos.
** And then there's some of the Guilds from the Ravnica set, which explore the mixing of the two in some interesting ways. The Boros Guild, Red/White, could almost be said to have taken a page from the notebook of Sam Vimes, Order himself.
*** This is taken a step further in the form of the Rakdos Guild. The Rakdos guild is the black, red guild; more or less a self-indulgent and frequently psychotically violent chaos incarnate. It is revealed that the entire reason the other nine Guilds allow the Rakdos to exist is to show to the non-guild citizens what a world without the guilds would be like. Furthermore, when a guild wants something done on a large scale that just isn't possible within their respected roles of the guildpact, they often commission the Rakdos to sow a little chaos and do it for them. Or, in the case of the [[TheChessmaster Dimir]], they set things up so the Rakdos take the blame.
* TabletopGame/{{Warhammer}} had both the Chaos gods and the Gods of Law, the later being obviously so obscure that they not only are barely mentioned, but pretty much absent from the main plot, although their followers are known to be extremistic. There's also several other gods who are either rather neutral, or that side against Chaos, but are not considered Gods of Order.

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* In ''TabletopGame/MagicTheGathering'', the ''TabletopGame/MagicTheGathering'': The conflict between White (the color of tradition, society, law and faith) and Red (the color of emotion, liberty, and impulsiveness) is at its heart the conflict between Order and Chaos.
Chaos. Since none of ''MTG'''s colors are inherently good or evil, this can take many shapes over different stories, such as a heroic White society fighting back the chaos of Red barbarians and monsters that threatens to destroy it or Red freedom fighters and revolutionaries fighting against an oppressive and hierarchical White regime.
** And then there's Red and White are not however mutually exclusive, and some of the Guilds from the Ravnica set, which sets explore the mixing of the two colors in some interesting ways. ways.
***
The Boros Guild, Red/White, could almost be said is for instance extremely dedicated to have taken a page from the notebook promoting White ideals of Sam Vimes, Order himself.
justice, law and society, but rather than pursuing these goals stoically and/or emotionlessly like White tends to, they do so with a clearly Red passion, fervency and personal, emotional investment.
*** This is taken a step further in the form of the Rakdos Guild. The Rakdos guild is Guild, the black, red Black (the color of selfishness, ambition and amorality) and Red guild; more or less a self-indulgent and frequently psychotically violent chaos incarnate. It is revealed that the entire reason the other nine Guilds allow the Rakdos to exist is to show to the non-guild citizens what a world without the guilds would be like. Furthermore, when a guild wants something done on a large scale that just isn't possible within their respected roles of the guildpact, they often commission the Rakdos to sow a little chaos and do it for them. Or, in the case of the [[TheChessmaster Dimir]], they set things up so the Rakdos take the blame.
** The Kaladesh arc is a clear example of a story focusing on good Chaos versus evil Order, focusing on the chiefly Red-aligned Renegades fighting against the stifling, tyrannical order of the chiefly White Consulate.
* TabletopGame/{{Warhammer}} ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer}}'' had both the Chaos gods and the Gods of Law, the later being obviously so obscure that they not only are barely mentioned, but pretty much absent from the main plot, although their followers are known to be extremistic. There's also several other gods who are either rather neutral, or that side against Chaos, but are not considered Gods of Order.
16th Jun '17 3:10:35 PM MagBas
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* In ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyIII'', Order is not necessarily always [[DarkIsNotEvil good]], and Chaos is not always [[GoodIsNotNice evil]]. Balance is found in that world through light and darkness, but if either side gets too powerful, four warriors from the opposite side are chosen to wield their respective Crystals and restore the balance. In the game, you play as the Four Warriors of Light trying to balance out the forces of Darkness using the Light Crystals, but then you eventually learn that there were once Four Warriors of Darkness who balanced out the forces of Light using Dark Crystals.
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