History Main / NobleSavage

9th Dec '17 9:10:38 AM Thorion
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** For example, wouldn't an Indian shoot a bear if he felt threatened? Or just hunt it for sport? (Yes, yes they would.)
1st Nov '17 8:37:29 PM foxley
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* Sent up in ''Carry On Cowboy'' where Chief Big Heap is not only cleverer than most of the settlers (he clears out a saloon by yelling about a [[GoldFever gold strike]], and everyone charges out despite not knowing where they're going), but speaks using a posh British accent.
* The Creator/MarxBrothers film ''Go West'', being a send-up of Westerns, features an inevitable Native American village complete with a medicine man, but more or less avoids this trope. When Groucho tries to impress a comely girl with a necklace, she tells him she wants a Cadillac sedan instead. Meanwhile the Chief and Harpo end up performing a musical number.

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* Sent up in ''Carry On Cowboy'' ''Film/CarryOnCowboy'' where Chief Big Heap is not only cleverer than most of the settlers (he clears out a saloon by yelling about a [[GoldFever gold strike]], and everyone charges out despite not knowing where they're going), but speaks using a posh British accent.
* The Creator/MarxBrothers film ''Go West'', ''Film/GoWest'', being a send-up of Westerns, features an inevitable Native American village complete with a medicine man, but more or less avoids this trope. When Groucho tries to impress a comely girl with a necklace, she tells him she wants a Cadillac sedan instead. Meanwhile the Chief and Harpo end up performing a musical number.
17th Sep '17 3:42:57 PM Occidensill
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* The assumption of the Noble Savage is based on generalizations on the second impression of Native Americans with less racism between the two cultures. Most Native American Tribes had vastly different values from modern standards, and are in fact quite noble. Although stereotypical, many tribes did say that people live within nature rather than lording over it, made war for less economically focused reasons, and were much more matriarchal in general. The problems come when this is idealized, and ''anything'' too "Western" is automatically bad, even in the face of all logic (for example, modern technology). People have been to known to demand that Aztecs be depicted as ''less'' sophisticated than they really were in order to fit in closer with this trope, complaining that terms like “provincial” and “months” ought to be avoided in favor of "country" and "moons" (never mind that the Aztecs had a ''solar'' calendar and an empire spanning central America). There are noble values in Western culture, too. There are noble values in any culture — and, because all human cultures are made up of real live human beings, some of the members of each one live up to their values and some don't. The reason that this trope has UnfortunateImplications is because it implies that this fact, which is true about all human beings, is not true about Native Americans — which, in turn, implies that Native Americans aren't fully human. In general, a common criticism of most post-colonial scholarship is that it tends to over indulge in this trope - unquestioningly praising "native" people and cultures while glossing over some of the less pleasant aspects. For example, Marshall Sahlins, who theorized that hunter-gatherer societies actually enjoyed higher standards of living and greater social equality than "civilized" humans, and dismissed those things that hunter-gatherer societies lack as not really worth having to begin with. Other scholars and researchers have also deconstructed this argument by pointing out the biases, selective lenses and idealized framing that tends to come along with this trope, as well as the tendencies for double standards and condescending attitudes. Sahlins is the source of the "original affluent society" idea for instance, claiming hunter-gatherer groups only needed to work about fifteen to twenty hours a week and could spent the rest how they pleased. However, he defined "work" as solely food gathering, excluding food ''preparation'' entirely. When this was added, it averaged around 40-45 hours of work per week-that is, around the same as most modern people in the West have.

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* The assumption of the Noble Savage trope is in part based on generalizations on the second impression of about Native Americans with less racism between Americans. There is a kernel of truth to the two cultures. Most Native American Tribes had vastly different values from modern standards, and are in fact quite noble. Although stereotypical, many tribes did say idea that people live they lived within nature rather than lording over it, made war for less economically focused reasons, and nature, were much more not as commerce oriented, and had matriarchal in general. The input, but the problems of the trope come when this is idealized, and ''anything'' too "Western" is automatically bad, even in the face of all logic (for example, modern technology). People have been to known to demand that Aztecs be depicted as ''less'' sophisticated than they really were in order to fit in closer with this trope, complaining that terms like “provincial” and “months” ought to be avoided in favor of "country" and "moons" (never mind that the Aztecs had a ''solar'' calendar and an empire spanning central America). There are noble values in Western culture, too. There are noble values in any culture — and, because all human cultures are made up of real live human beings, some of the members of each one live up to their values and some don't. The reason that this trope has UnfortunateImplications is because it implies that this fact, which is true about all human beings, is not true about Native Americans — which, in turn, implies that Native Americans aren't fully human. In general, a common criticism of most post-colonial scholarship is that it tends to over indulge in this trope - unquestioningly praising "native" people and cultures while glossing over some of the less pleasant aspects. For example, Marshall Sahlins, who theorized that hunter-gatherer societies actually enjoyed higher standards of living and greater social equality than "civilized" humans, and dismissed those things that hunter-gatherer societies lack as not really worth having to begin with. Other scholars and researchers have also deconstructed this argument by pointing out the biases, selective lenses and idealized framing that tends to come along with this trope, as well as the tendencies for double standards and condescending attitudes. Sahlins is the source of the "original affluent society" idea for instance, claiming hunter-gatherer groups only needed to work about fifteen to twenty hours a week and could spent the rest how they pleased. However, he defined "work" as solely food gathering, excluding food ''preparation'' entirely. When this was added, it averaged around 40-45 hours of work per week-that is, around the same as most modern people in the West have.
10th Sep '17 6:23:43 PM ShaiPa
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-->'''Why''': [[SarcasmMode Definitely not]] because these characters are a mish-mosh of racist caricatures from the colonial era.

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-->'''Why''': [[SarcasmMode Definitely not]] because these characters are a [[HollywoodNatives mish-mosh of racist caricatures from the colonial era.era]].
21st Aug '17 1:20:05 AM PaulA
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* Creator/MercedesLackey plays this trope very straight with the Hawkbrothers in her ''Literature/HeroaldsOfValdemar'' setting. Closer to nature than all the other countries depicted? Check. [[MagicalNativeAmerican Superior knowledge of magic to everyone else]]? Check. Lack of taboos against things like homosexuality and premarital sex? Check. Utopian society that lacks poverty or other social ills? Check.

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* Creator/MercedesLackey plays this trope very straight with the Hawkbrothers in her ''Literature/HeroaldsOfValdemar'' ''Literature/HeraldsOfValdemar'' setting. Closer to nature than all the other countries depicted? Check. [[MagicalNativeAmerican Superior knowledge of magic to everyone else]]? Check. Lack of taboos against things like homosexuality and premarital sex? Check. Utopian society that lacks poverty or other social ills? Check.
21st Aug '17 1:19:39 AM PaulA
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* Creator/MercedesLackey plays this trope very straight with the Hawkbrothers in her Valadamar setting. Closer to nature than all the other countries depicted? Check. [[MagicalNativeAmerican Superior knowledge of magic to everyone else]]? Check. Lack of taboos against things like homosexuality and premarital sex? Check. Utopian society that lacks poverty or other social ills? Check.

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* Creator/MercedesLackey plays this trope very straight with the Hawkbrothers in her Valadamar ''Literature/HeroaldsOfValdemar'' setting. Closer to nature than all the other countries depicted? Check. [[MagicalNativeAmerican Superior knowledge of magic to everyone else]]? Check. Lack of taboos against things like homosexuality and premarital sex? Check. Utopian society that lacks poverty or other social ills? Check.
24th Jul '17 8:30:54 AM BeerBaron
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Added DiffLines:

** Likewise, the Kothringi, a race of [[AmazingTechnicolorPopulation silver-skinned]] menfolk also native to the Black Marsh, were known to have a tribal and primitive society. If they were more "noble" or more "savage" remains unknown, however. It is known that they served in [[BadassArmy the legions]] of the 2nd Empire, which would make them seem more "noble" to human historians at least. Like the Lilmothiit, they were presumed to be rendered extinct by the Knahaten Flu.
30th Jun '17 11:50:44 AM BeerBaron
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Added DiffLines:

** The series' [[OurGiantsAreBigger Giants]] are a moderately intelligent and nomadic race, viewed as primitive by the other races of Tamriel. However, they [[TheBeastmaster tend to mammoth herds]], generally [[GentleGiant do not attack others unless provoked]], are capable of learning some basic Tamriellic speech, and [[DueToTheDead will carry deceased Giants to sacred burial grounds]].
29th Jun '17 8:14:42 AM BeerBaron
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Added DiffLines:

** The series' backstory mentions the Lilmothiit, a race of [[PettingZooPeople "Fox Folk"]] native to Black Marsh as being primitive, tribal, and nomadic. Unfortunately, they were rendered extinct in the 2nd Era in a combination of conflicts with the [[LizardFolk Argonians]] and the [[MysticalPlague Knahaten Flu]]. Exactly where they fall on the scale between "noble" and "savage" is thus unknown.
30th May '17 3:32:00 PM mkmckoy
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* The [[WebAnimation/DorklyOriginals Dorkly]] article, “[[http://www.dorkly.com/post/60847/these-8-characters-are-definitely-going-to-die These Eight Characters are Definitely Going to Die]]”, includes in the list, "[[ProudWarriorRaceGuy Honorable Warrior Guy]]".

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* The [[WebAnimation/DorklyOriginals Dorkly]] ''[[WebAnimation/DorklyOriginals Dorkly]]'' article, “[[http://www.dorkly.com/post/60847/these-8-characters-are-definitely-going-to-die These Eight Characters are Definitely Going to Die]]”, includes in the list, "[[ProudWarriorRaceGuy Honorable Warrior Guy]]".
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.NobleSavage