History Main / NobleSavage

6th Feb '17 6:13:54 PM Gaming28
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[[folder:Music]]
* {{Music/RunningWild}}'s song "Uaschitschun" from ''Port Royal''.
[[/folder]]
14th Jan '17 3:53:13 PM Mullon
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* Eagle Free, the Native American NatureHero sidekick of ''ComicBook/{{Prez|1973}}''.

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* Eagle Free, the Native American NatureHero sidekick of ''ComicBook/{{Prez|1973}}''. Even though Prez makes him head of the FBI he still lives in a tepee on the Potomac to better commune with his animal friends.
31st Dec '16 10:39:29 PM FurryKef
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* The assumption of the Noble Savage is based off of generalizations on the second impression of Native Americans with less racism between the two cultures. Most Native American Tribes had vastly different values from modern standards, and are in fact quite noble. Although stereotypical, many tribes did say that people live within nature rather than lording over it, made war for less economically focused reasons, and were much more matriarchal in general. The problems come when this is idealized, and ''anything'' too "Western" is automatically bad, even in the face of all logic (for example, modern technology). People have been to known to demand that Aztecs be depicted as ''less'' sophisticated than they really were in order to fit in closer with this trope, complaining that terms like “provincial” and “months” ought to be avoided in favor of "country" and "moons" (never mind that the Aztecs had a ''solar'' calendar and an empire spanning central America). There are noble values in Western culture, too. There are noble values in any culture — and, because all human cultures are made up of real live human beings, some of the members of each one live up to their values and some don't. The reason that this trope has UnfortunateImplications is because it implies that this fact, which is true about all human beings, is not true about Native Americans — which, in turn, implies that Native Americans aren't fully human. In general, a common criticism of most post-colonial scholarship is that it tends to over indulge in this trope - unquestioningly praising "native" people and cultures while glossing over some of the less pleasant aspects. For example, Marshall Sahlins, who theorized that hunter-gatherer societies actually enjoyed higher standards of living and greater social equality than "civilized" humans, and dismissed those things that hunter-gatherer societies lack as not really worth having to begin with. Other scholars and researchers have also deconstructed this argument by pointing out the biases, selective lenses and idealized framing that tends to come along with this trope, as well as the tendencies for double standards and condescending attitudes. Sahlins is the source of the "original affluent society" idea for instance, claiming hunter-gatherer groups only needed to work about fifteen to twenty hours a week and could spent the rest how they pleased. However, he defined "work" as solely food gathering, excluding food ''preparation'' entirely. When this was added, it averaged around 40-45 hours of work per week-that is, around the same as most modern people in the West have.

to:

* The assumption of the Noble Savage is based off of on generalizations on the second impression of Native Americans with less racism between the two cultures. Most Native American Tribes had vastly different values from modern standards, and are in fact quite noble. Although stereotypical, many tribes did say that people live within nature rather than lording over it, made war for less economically focused reasons, and were much more matriarchal in general. The problems come when this is idealized, and ''anything'' too "Western" is automatically bad, even in the face of all logic (for example, modern technology). People have been to known to demand that Aztecs be depicted as ''less'' sophisticated than they really were in order to fit in closer with this trope, complaining that terms like “provincial” and “months” ought to be avoided in favor of "country" and "moons" (never mind that the Aztecs had a ''solar'' calendar and an empire spanning central America). There are noble values in Western culture, too. There are noble values in any culture — and, because all human cultures are made up of real live human beings, some of the members of each one live up to their values and some don't. The reason that this trope has UnfortunateImplications is because it implies that this fact, which is true about all human beings, is not true about Native Americans — which, in turn, implies that Native Americans aren't fully human. In general, a common criticism of most post-colonial scholarship is that it tends to over indulge in this trope - unquestioningly praising "native" people and cultures while glossing over some of the less pleasant aspects. For example, Marshall Sahlins, who theorized that hunter-gatherer societies actually enjoyed higher standards of living and greater social equality than "civilized" humans, and dismissed those things that hunter-gatherer societies lack as not really worth having to begin with. Other scholars and researchers have also deconstructed this argument by pointing out the biases, selective lenses and idealized framing that tends to come along with this trope, as well as the tendencies for double standards and condescending attitudes. Sahlins is the source of the "original affluent society" idea for instance, claiming hunter-gatherer groups only needed to work about fifteen to twenty hours a week and could spent the rest how they pleased. However, he defined "work" as solely food gathering, excluding food ''preparation'' entirely. When this was added, it averaged around 40-45 hours of work per week-that is, around the same as most modern people in the West have.
12th Dec '16 8:58:17 PM Fireblood
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* ''Franchise/{{Dune}}'' [[SubvertedTrope subverts]] this. The Fremen are a nasty lot. [[FateWorseThanDeath They leave their enemies wishing they were dead]]. They just suck them dry of their water. And by the time of the second book, they've become the shock troops of Paul's new empire and have carried out the worst slaughter in the history of TheEmpire's existence.

to:

* ''Franchise/{{Dune}}'' [[SubvertedTrope subverts]] this. The Fremen are a nasty lot. [[FateWorseThanDeath They leave their enemies wishing they were dead]]. They just suck them dry of their water. And by the time of the second book, they've become the shock troops of Paul's new empire and and have carried out the worst slaughter in the history of TheEmpire's existence.



* HBO's ''Series/{{Rome}}'' series portrayed Gallic (and therefore, savage to the Romans) leader, Vercingetorix, as some sort of noble victim

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* HBO's ''Series/{{Rome}}'' series portrayed Gallic (and therefore, savage to the Romans) leader, Vercingetorix, leader Vercingetorix as some sort of noble victimvictim.



* [[Literature/TheBible Adam and Eve]] are noble savages of a sort. They live in uncorrupted innocence and harmony with nature until they partake of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, i.e. became "civilized". Seeing how God's punishment includes the fact that man will now have to grow his own food, the fall of man can be read as a metaphor for the dawn of agriculture, with the Garden of Eden representing a nostalgic take on the prior hunter-gatherer age.

to:

* [[Literature/TheBible Adam and Eve]] are noble savages of a sort. They live in uncorrupted innocence and harmony with nature until they partake of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, i.e. became "civilized". Seeing how God's punishment includes the fact that man will now have to grow his own food, the fall of man can be read as a metaphor for the dawn of agriculture, with the Garden of Eden representing a nostalgic take on the prior hunter-gatherer age. Some Europeans later viewed hunter-gatherers in the Americas as akin to living in Eden too.



* The assumption of the Noble Savage is based off of generalizations on the second impression of Native Americans with less racism between the two cultures. Most Native American Tribes had vastly different values from modern standards, and are in fact quite noble. Although stereotypical, many tribes did say that people live within nature rather than lording over it, made war for less economically focused reasons, and were much more matriarchal in general. The problems come when this is idealized, and ''anything'' too "Western" is automatically bad, even in the face of all logic (for example, modern technology). People have been to known to demand that Aztecs be depicted as ''less'' sophisticated than they really were in order to fit in closer with this trope, complaining that terms like “provincial” and “months” ought to be avoided in favor of "country" and "moons" (nevermind that the Aztecs had a ''solar'' calendar and an empire spanning central America). There are noble values in Western culture, too. There are noble values in any culture — and, because all human cultures are made up of real live human beings, some of the members of each one live up to their values and some don't. The reason that this trope has UnfortunateImplications is because it implies that this fact, which is true about all human beings, is not true about Native Americans — which, in turn, implies that Native Americans aren't fully human. In general, a common criticism of most post colonial scholarship is that it tends to over indulge in this trope - unquestioningly praising "native" people and cultures while glossing over some of the less pleasant aspects. For example, Marshall Sahlins, who theorized that hunter-gatherer societies actually enjoyed higher standards of living and greater social equality than "civilized" humans, and dismissed those things that hunter-gatherer societies lack as not really worth having to begin with. Other scholars and researchers have also deconstructed this argument by pointing out the biases, selective lenses and idealized framing that tends to come along with this trope, as well as the tendencies for double standards and condescending attitudes. Sahlins is the source of the "original affluent society" idea for instance, claiming hunter-gatherer groups only needed to work about fifteen to twenty hours a week and could spent the rest how they pleased. However, he defined "work" as solely food gathering, excluding food ''preparation'' entirely. When this was added, it averaged around 40-45 hours of work per week-that is, around the same as most modern people in the West have.

to:

* The assumption of the Noble Savage is based off of generalizations on the second impression of Native Americans with less racism between the two cultures. Most Native American Tribes had vastly different values from modern standards, and are in fact quite noble. Although stereotypical, many tribes did say that people live within nature rather than lording over it, made war for less economically focused reasons, and were much more matriarchal in general. The problems come when this is idealized, and ''anything'' too "Western" is automatically bad, even in the face of all logic (for example, modern technology). People have been to known to demand that Aztecs be depicted as ''less'' sophisticated than they really were in order to fit in closer with this trope, complaining that terms like “provincial” and “months” ought to be avoided in favor of "country" and "moons" (nevermind (never mind that the Aztecs had a ''solar'' calendar and an empire spanning central America). There are noble values in Western culture, too. There are noble values in any culture — and, because all human cultures are made up of real live human beings, some of the members of each one live up to their values and some don't. The reason that this trope has UnfortunateImplications is because it implies that this fact, which is true about all human beings, is not true about Native Americans — which, in turn, implies that Native Americans aren't fully human. In general, a common criticism of most post colonial post-colonial scholarship is that it tends to over indulge in this trope - unquestioningly praising "native" people and cultures while glossing over some of the less pleasant aspects. For example, Marshall Sahlins, who theorized that hunter-gatherer societies actually enjoyed higher standards of living and greater social equality than "civilized" humans, and dismissed those things that hunter-gatherer societies lack as not really worth having to begin with. Other scholars and researchers have also deconstructed this argument by pointing out the biases, selective lenses and idealized framing that tends to come along with this trope, as well as the tendencies for double standards and condescending attitudes. Sahlins is the source of the "original affluent society" idea for instance, claiming hunter-gatherer groups only needed to work about fifteen to twenty hours a week and could spent the rest how they pleased. However, he defined "work" as solely food gathering, excluding food ''preparation'' entirely. When this was added, it averaged around 40-45 hours of work per week-that is, around the same as most modern people in the West have.



* Additionally, most of what we know about Native Americans comes from the time when 90% of their entire population was wiped out by European diseases, likely spread by Cortes's contact with the Aztecs earlier. Before that, the natives had cities and actually cut down so many trees that some historians think that the resultant sudden rise in CO 2 helped stop the Little Ice Age in ''Europe'' (i.e. on the other side of the world). Monk's Mound is an example of Native American engineering, with earth for the mound being carried for many miles without the benefit of horses. The book 1491 goes into great detail, such as how the Amazon Forest resulted when the agriculture of native societies collapsed during these disease epidemics and plants essentially went wild (thus the lost cities in the jungle). So the image of Native Americans as almost entirely disparate tribal hunter-gatherers is because they were largely what remained afterward (due to being more isolated and thus escaping disease at the time).

to:

* Additionally, most of what we know about Native Americans comes from the time when 90% of their entire population was wiped out by European diseases, likely spread by Cortes's contact with the Aztecs earlier. Before that, the natives had cities and actually cut down so many trees that some historians think that the resultant sudden rise in CO 2 helped stop the Little Ice Age in ''Europe'' (i.e. on the other side of the world). Monk's Mound is an example of Native American engineering, with earth for the mound being carried for many miles without the benefit of horses. The book 1491 ''1491'' goes into great detail, such as how the Amazon Forest resulted when the agriculture of native societies collapsed during these disease epidemics and plants essentially went wild (thus the lost cities in the jungle). So the image of Native Americans as almost entirely disparate tribal hunter-gatherers is because they were largely what remained afterward (due to being more isolated and thus escaping disease at the time).
12th Dec '16 8:32:53 PM Fireblood
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* ''Franchise/{{Dune}}'' [[SubvertedTrope subverts]] this. The Fremen are a nasty lot. [[FateWorseThanDeath They leave their enemies wishing they were dead]]. They just suck them dry of their water. And by the time of the second book, they've become the shock troops of Paul's new empire and have carried out the worst slaughter in the history of TheEmpire's existence.

to:

* ''Franchise/{{Dune}}'' [[SubvertedTrope subverts]] this. The Fremen are a nasty lot. [[FateWorseThanDeath They leave their enemies wishing they were dead]]. They just suck them dry of their water. And by the time of the second book, they've become the shock troops of Paul's new empire and and have carried out the worst slaughter in the history of TheEmpire's existence.



* The Drúedain in J.R.R. Tolkien's ''Literature/TheLordOfTheRings'' are depicted as a NobleSavage race. Their relationship with the other peoples is depicted as difficult at best, though. The Rohirrim used to hunt them like animals, and they responded by shooting anybody entering to their woods with poisoned arrows. Only a common enemy managed to get them to cooperate. The Dunlanders in contrast were an example of a very un-noble savages sponsored by Saruman.

to:

* The Drúedain in J.R.R. Tolkien's ''Literature/TheLordOfTheRings'' are depicted as a NobleSavage race. Their relationship with the other peoples is depicted as difficult at best, though. The Rohirrim used to hunt them like animals, and they responded by shooting anybody entering to their woods with poisoned arrows. Only a common enemy managed to get them to cooperate. The Dunlanders in contrast were an example of a very un-noble savages sponsored by Saruman.Saruman, although they ally with him to their land back from the Rohirrim.
12th Dec '16 7:19:23 PM Fireblood
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* ''Franchise/{{Dune}}'' [[SubvertedTrope subverts]] this. The Fremen are a nasty lot. [[FateWorseThanDeath They leave their enemies wishing they were dead]]. They just suck them dry of their water. And by the time of the second book, they've become the shock troops of Paul's new empire and to have carried out the worst slaughter in the history of TheEmpire's existence.

to:

* ''Franchise/{{Dune}}'' [[SubvertedTrope subverts]] this. The Fremen are a nasty lot. [[FateWorseThanDeath They leave their enemies wishing they were dead]]. They just suck them dry of their water. And by the time of the second book, they've become the shock troops of Paul's new empire and to and have carried out the worst slaughter in the history of TheEmpire's existence.
12th Dec '16 7:15:47 PM Fireblood
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* Parodied with Cohen (yes, inspired by Conan, but rather more elderly) and most of the barbarians we meet in ''Literature/{{Discworld}}''. The approved method of 'assassination' used by barbarians is to gather all their enemies together for a feast, and then slaughter them while they're drunk, and if anyone survives there's no hard feelings (Cohen actually went bounty hunting for one of fellow horde members once). They consider "civilized" behaviors such as poisoning, mutilation and politics to be highly dishonorable.

to:

* Parodied with Cohen (yes, inspired by Conan, but rather more elderly) and most of the barbarians we meet in ''Literature/{{Discworld}}''. The approved method of 'assassination' used by barbarians is to gather all their enemies together for a feast, and then slaughter them while they're drunk, drunk ([[TruthInTelevision something really done]] by some "barbarian" tribes), and if anyone survives there's no hard feelings (Cohen actually went bounty hunting for one of his fellow horde members once). They consider "civilized" behaviors such as poisoning, mutilation and politics to be highly dishonorable.



** While this is largely true, the very first barbarians we meet in the series (Riverwind and Goldmoon themselves) are exiles from their tribe because they questioned their tribe's taboos, and Riverwind was only not stoned to death because Goldmoon intervened. Not entirely a rose tinted view then, though arguably the barbarians were eventually {{Flanderized}} into this trope.

to:

** While this is largely true, the very first barbarians we meet in the series (Riverwind and Goldmoon themselves) are exiles from their tribe because they questioned their tribe's taboos, and Riverwind was only not stoned to death because Goldmoon intervened. Not entirely a rose tinted rose-tinted view then, though arguably the barbarians were eventually {{Flanderized}} into this trope.
12th Dec '16 6:34:57 PM Fireblood
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* Pioneering documentary ''Film/NanookOfTheNorth'' portray Nanook and the Inuk of northern Quebec as this, brave and noble, and expert hunters. This also comes with not a little condescension, like when they're described as "simple" and "happy-go-lucky".
* First straight but then subverted in ''Film/TheThinRedLine''. The first Melanesian village welcomes the AWOL private Witt with open arms, and there he realizes that the villagers know the true meaning of "love thy neighbour". However, when he's forced back into the army, he visits another village, which unlike the first village had been traumatized by the war and the villagers avoid him with disdain while arguing with each other for petty reasons, not caring about the sick and older villagers. Realizing that the closest thing to a paradise on Earth has been corrupted by the Hell of wars, Witt leaves.

to:

* Pioneering documentary ''Film/NanookOfTheNorth'' portray Nanook and the Inuk of northern Quebec as this, brave and noble, and expert hunters. This also comes with not a little condescension, like when they're described as "simple" and "happy-go-lucky".
"happy-go-lucky". The film also deliberately played up the Inuits' traditional ways, since by then they mostly wore Western clothing, used rifles to hunt, etc. In the same vein Nanook is portrayed as comically unfamiliar with modern technology such as a phonograph, while the Inuit actor playing him knew very well what they were.
* First straight but then subverted in ''Film/TheThinRedLine''. The first Melanesian village welcomes the AWOL private Witt with open arms, and there he realizes that the villagers know the true meaning of "love thy neighbour".neighbor". However, when he's forced back into the army, he visits another village, which unlike the first village had been traumatized by the war and the villagers avoid him with disdain while arguing with each other for petty reasons, not caring about the sick and older villagers. Realizing that the closest thing to a paradise on Earth has been corrupted by the Hell hell of wars, Witt leaves.



** Averted with the [[AlwaysChaoticEvil Pawnee tribes which are depicted as truly savage killers]].

to:

** Averted with the [[AlwaysChaoticEvil Pawnee tribes tribes, which are depicted as truly savage killers]].



* A variant appears in Tom Cruise's ''Film/TheLastSamurai''; the general theme is in place in regards to the Japanese, but the film presents them as sophisticated and civilised, rather than "savage". Colonel Bagley explicitly refers to the samurai as "savages with bows and arrows". In a bit of an inversion, the Japanese characters also consider the Americans savage brutes.

to:

* A variant appears in Tom Cruise's ''Film/TheLastSamurai''; the general theme is in place in regards to the Japanese, but the film presents them as sophisticated and civilised, civilized, rather than "savage". Colonel Bagley explicitly refers to the samurai as "savages with bows and arrows". In a bit of an inversion, the Japanese characters also consider the Americans savage brutes.



* Mani from ''Film/BrotherhoodOfTheWolf''

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* Mani from ''Film/BrotherhoodOfTheWolf''''Film/BrotherhoodOfTheWolf''.



* Richard and Emmeline of ''Film/TheBlueLagoon'', and Richard (son of the couple from the first movie) and Lilli of the sequel.

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* Richard and Emmeline of ''Film/TheBlueLagoon'', and Richard (son of the couple from the first movie) and Lilli of in the sequel.



* Sent up in ''Carry On Cowboy'' where Chief Big Heap is not only cleverer than most of the settlers (he clears out a saloon by yelling about a [[GoldFever gold strike]], and everyone charges out despite not knowing where they're going) but speaks with an posh British accent.

to:

* Sent up in ''Carry On Cowboy'' where Chief Big Heap is not only cleverer than most of the settlers (he clears out a saloon by yelling about a [[GoldFever gold strike]], and everyone charges out despite not knowing where they're going) going), but speaks with an using a posh British accent.
12th Dec '16 6:22:07 PM Fireblood
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OlderThanFeudalism -- Tacitus wrote of the noble Germanic and Caledonian tribes to contrast with his view of Roman society as decadent and corrupt, and even [[HistoricalHeroUpgrade wrote eloquent Roman-style speeches about liberty and honor for "his versions" of Calgacus and Arminius]]. The trope has gone in and out of fashion over time, usually contrasting a decadent distrustful "city life" that a thinker feels has tarnished the essentially good nature of humanity. At different times, and in different hands, it has appeared in two many forms. One is that the life is strenuous and therefore the savage is nobly brave, hard-working, and honorable. The other is that the savage is not {{Greed}}y and does not have a taste for luxury and is content when he has what he actually ''needs'', and so the life is easy and pleasant, without all the striving after more. In the USA, the Noble Savage came into style in the mid-1800s, about the time a lot of Western states/territories got their names. This left many geographical features with names of [[ShownTheirWork Indian]] (or at least [[AsLongAsItSoundsForeign Indian-sounding]]) extraction.

to:

OlderThanFeudalism -- Tacitus wrote of the noble Germanic and Caledonian tribes to contrast with his view of Roman society as decadent and corrupt, and even [[HistoricalHeroUpgrade wrote eloquent Roman-style speeches about liberty and honor for "his versions" of Calgacus and Arminius]]. The trope has gone in and out of fashion over time, usually contrasting a decadent distrustful "city life" that a thinker feels has tarnished the essentially good nature of humanity. At different times, and in different hands, it has appeared in two many main forms. One is that the life is strenuous and therefore the savage is nobly brave, hard-working, and honorable. The other is that the savage is not {{Greed}}y {{greed}}y and does not have a taste for luxury and is content when he has what he actually ''needs'', and so the life is easy and pleasant, without all the striving after more. In the USA, the Noble Savage came into style in the mid-1800s, about the time a lot of Western states/territories got their names. This left many geographical features with names of [[ShownTheirWork Indian]] (or at least [[AsLongAsItSoundsForeign Indian-sounding]]) extraction.



* In ''ComicBook/TalesOfTheJedi'', the Beast-Riders of Onderon are much more decent and honorable than the citizens of Iziz, whose rulers are part of a dark side cult. (They are also drawn as noticeably darker-skinned than Iziz's citizens, despite the fact that the Beast-Riders are direct descendants of people ''from'' Iziz who were exiled to the jungle.)

to:

* In ''ComicBook/TalesOfTheJedi'', the Beast-Riders of Onderon are much more decent and honorable than the citizens of Iziz, whose rulers are part of a dark side cult. (They are also drawn as noticeably darker-skinned than Iziz's citizens, despite the fact that the Beast-Riders are direct descendants of people ''from'' Iziz who were exiled to the jungle. Presumably their skin darkened from more sun exposure.)



** For example, wouldn't an Indian shoot a bear if he felt threatened? Or just hunt it for sport? (Yes, yes they would)

to:

** For example, wouldn't an Indian shoot a bear if he felt threatened? Or just hunt it for sport? (Yes, yes they would)would.)
12th Dec '16 2:17:25 PM ImperialMajestyXO
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* Creator/{{Disney}}'s ''Disney/{{Pocahontas}}''. Historically, Chief Powhatan was very much like the Native American version of [[UsefulNotes/NapoleonBoneparte Napoleon]] before the English arrived.

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* Creator/{{Disney}}'s ''Disney/{{Pocahontas}}''. Historically, Chief Powhatan was very much like the Native American version of [[UsefulNotes/NapoleonBoneparte [[UsefulNotes/NapoleonBonaparte Napoleon]] before the English arrived.
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