TheOtherWiki calls this ''[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misotheism misotheism]]''--hatred of God or the Gods--and ''[[http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Dystheism dystheism]]''--belief that the Monotheistic God is [[TheGodsMustBeLazy not good]], or [[GodIsEvil outright evil]]. Henotheism and apatheism also may fall under this trope. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism Henotheism]] is the belief in the existence of multiple gods, but the preference for worshipping only one. This is how Vedic Hinduism worked: depending on your sect, you worshipped Shiva, Vishnu, or Shakti as supreme of the ''Panchayatana''. Then there's the ''Devas'' (Ganesh, Kali, Hanuman, etc.) who you would pick as your personal deity to guard your family, something like a patron saint (this is all very simplified for the sake of brevity. Explore other sources for details.). [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism Apatheism]] considers the question of God's existence irrelevant and meaningless. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism Ignosticism]] claims the very concept makes no sense, and thus cannot be addressed.

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TheOtherWiki calls this ''[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misotheism misotheism]]''--hatred of God or the gods--and ''[[http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Dystheism dystheism]]''--belief that the Monotheistic God is [[TheGodsMustBeLazy not good]], or [[GodIsEvil outright evil]]. Henotheism and apatheism also may fall under this trope. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism Henotheism]] is the belief in the existence of multiple gods, but the preference for worshipping only one. This is how Vedic Hinduism worked: depending on your sect, you worshipped Shiva, Vishnu, or Shakti as supreme of the ''Panchayatana''. Then there's the ''Devas'' (Ganesh, Kali, Hanuman, etc.) who you would pick as your personal deity to guard your family, something like a patron saint (this is all very simplified for the sake of brevity. Explore other sources for details.). [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism Apatheism]] considers the question of God's existence irrelevant and meaningless. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism Ignosticism]] claims the very concept makes no sense, and thus cannot be addressed.

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** In Chains of Olympus (Prior to the first game), he is forced to [[spoiler: forsake being with his daughter in Elysium forever so he can save her and the world from Persephone's OmnicidalManiac plan to destroy the Pillar of the World and destroy Olympus, Earth and Underworld out of spite for being trapped in a forced marriaged with Hades]]. In Ghost of Sparta, prior to the second game, he finds out that his brother, Deimos, was taken captive by the Gods because of a prophecy that said a Marked Warrior would destroy the Olympian Gods, and Deimos was born with a mark very similar to Kratos' tattoo, actually made to honor the then-thought-to-be dead Deimos. In the end, [[spoiler: Deimos was killed by Thanatos, and Kratos was angered by the way Athena waved the torment Deimos suffered for decades as IDidWhatIHadToDo, especially because she and Ares were the ones to kidnap him]]. He's also not happy with becoming a God, since he has to live with the Nightmares the Gods refused to take and, when he tried to kill himself, granted him [[WhoWantsToLiveForever Immortality!]] All in all, his ''dislike'' for the Gods is understandable...

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** In Chains of Olympus (Prior to the first game), he is forced to [[spoiler: forsake being with his daughter in Elysium forever so he can save her and the world from Persephone's OmnicidalManiac plan to destroy the Pillar of the World and destroy Olympus, Earth and Underworld out of spite for being trapped in a forced marriaged with Hades]]. In Ghost of Sparta, prior to the second game, he finds out that his brother, Deimos, was taken captive by the gods because of a prophecy that said a Marked Warrior would destroy the Olympian gods, and Deimos was born with a mark very similar to Kratos' tattoo, actually made to honor the then-thought-to-be dead Deimos. In the end, [[spoiler: Deimos was killed by Thanatos, and Kratos was angered by the way Athena waved the torment Deimos suffered for decades as IDidWhatIHadToDo, especially because she and Ares were the ones to kidnap him]]. He's also not happy with becoming a God, since he has to live with the Nightmares the Gods refused to take and, when he tried to kill himself, granted him [[WhoWantsToLiveForever Immortality!]] All in all, his ''dislike'' for the gods is understandable...

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1st Apr '13 1:53:30 PM ChaoticNovelist

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Removed more natter. It belonged in discussion or analysis but not on the main page. There are too many weasel words and responding to other posts.

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* Many theists get this confused with atheism and will often accuse genuine atheists (especially ones who are ex-theists) of being {{Nay Theist}}s.
** Some theists supposedly get this impression from statements like like "[o]f course God supports murdering babies, he does it himself every time someone miscarries!" or "your god is a tyrant!" What is actually happening is that the atheist is, "for the sake of argument," granting the theist's premises and trying to draw a reasonable, if sometimes sarcastic, conclusion about [[FridgeHorror what those premises would imply if followed to their logical conclusion]]. Atheists often don't bother starting with "supposing for the sake of argument God does exist" because it's implied and assumed to be obvious.
*** Because misotheism isn't exactly a well known word, most of the time people say things like "Militant Atheist" or "Fundamental Atheist", not necessarily to imply any active aggression, just very strongly held convictions.
*** Also because some theists honestly believe that the evidence that God is real is so obvious and overwhelming that anyone who claims otherwise must be either a FlatEarthAtheist or this.
** Other atheists may not take the position that god is evil (assuming one existed), but merely irrelevant. Simply put, there's no reason to worship some deity, or have a relationship with them, if they aren't going to give them the common courtesy of conversing with them in person and insist on go-betweens (Holy men, 'signs', etc...), especially since the go-betweens aren't exactly reliable anyway. This is somewhat similar to the deist position on worship.
*** If a god existed and moved in such mysterious ways you can't even tell if believing confers benefits there is no practical reason to believe. It belief can't help you make better decisions why waste time on it.
* Reportedly Christopher Hitchens has been known to call himself an "anti-theist," saying that he's considered the possibility that God exists and finds the thought disturbing.
** To elaborate, antitheists are an actual subculture of atheist who would be {{Nay Theist}}s if they thought God actually existed. In practice, they typically believe that ''belief'' in God (i.e. theism) is an undesirable thing that should be opposed intellectually and socially.
** Christopher Hitchens said the following: "You can be an atheist, but still wish that the religious idea of God was true. An anti-theist is someone who says that it would be pretty awful if it was true."
* Mikhail Bakunin, a rather big name in anarchist political ideology and a self-identified anarcho-collectivist wrote these words in his book ''No Gods, No Masters'': "The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth. A boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished."

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* Many theists get this confused with atheism and will often accuse genuine atheists (especially ones who are ex-theists) of being {{Nay Theist}}s. They honestly believe that the evidence that God is real is so obvious and overwhelming that anyone who claims otherwise must be either a FlatEarthAtheist or this.
* Reportedly Christopher Hitchens has been known to call himself an "anti-theist," saying that he's considered the possibility that God exists and finds the thought disturbing. To elaborate, antitheists are a subculture of atheist who would be {{Nay Theist}}s if they thought God existed. In practice, they typically believe that ''belief'' in God (i.e. theism) is an undesirable thing that should be opposed intellectually and socially.
-> "You can be an atheist, but still wish that the religious idea of God was true. An anti-theist is someone who says that it would be pretty awful if it was true."
* Mikhail Bakunin, a big name in anarchist political ideology and a self-identified anarcho-collectivist wrote these words in his book ''No Gods, No Masters'': "The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth. A boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished."

1st Apr '13 1:49:39 PM ChaoticNovelist

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[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism Apatheism]] considers the question of God's existence irrelevant and meaningless. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism Ignosticism]] claims the very concept makes no sense, and thus cannot be addressed.

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** In the original game, [[spoiler:Hanyuu]] tells [[spoiler:Keiichi]] that the human will is greater than any god or fate. Noticing a theme yet?
*** Not an uncommon one in Buddhist countries, as one of the basic tenets of Buddhism is that human beings are best suited to achieving Nirvana, which is beyond all deities, while the gods themselves are too caught up with being supremely wise and powerful to look beyond their state.
* Similarly, Battler from ''UminekoNoNakuKoroNi'' is engaged in a very involved argument with a witch that she doesn't exist. Her killing him, bringing back to life, etc. has nothing to do with the issue.
** She eventually gets sneaky in her pursuit of his belief. And sadistic. Mostly sadistic.
** He verges somewhat into FlatEarthAtheist territory because his debate is literally over her existence - he does not, in fact, accept it. [[spoiler:Although he does swing in this direction in later arcs. At least enough to accept that Beatrice has enough of an existence to have motives]]. [[spoiler:And he switches sides when he winds up as Endless Sorcerer.]]

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** In the original game, [[spoiler:Hanyuu]] tells [[spoiler:Keiichi]] that the human will is greater than any god or fate. Noticing a theme yet?  Not an uncommon one in Buddhist countries, as one of the basic tenets of Buddhism is that human beings are best suited to achieving Nirvana, which is beyond all deities, while the gods themselves are too caught up with being supremely wise and powerful to look beyond their state.
* Similarly, Battler from ''UminekoNoNakuKoroNi'' is engaged in a very involved argument with a witch that she doesn't exist. Her killing him, bringing back to life, etc. has nothing to do with the issue. She eventually gets sneaky in her pursuit of his belief. And sadistic. Mostly sadistic. He verges somewhat into FlatEarthAtheist territory because his debate is literally over her existence - he does not, in fact, accept it. [[spoiler:Although he does swing in this direction in later arcs. At least enough to accept that Beatrice has enough of an existence to have motives]]. [[spoiler:And he switches sides when he winds up as Endless Sorcerer.]]

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* ''TheDresdenFiles'': Harry Dresden. One of his best friends carries around a sword containing a nail of the True Cross that cuts through all manners of demonic baddies, he dallies with the supernatural daily, and [[spoiler: Harry had a fallen angel rattling around in his skull]] -- but he doesn't hold much truck with gods, and believes that the faith that powers them is just another example of [[ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve emotion fueling magic]].
** Alternatively, that the power of faith is orthogonal to the belief in magic, and that you can't have both at the same time.
*** Not exactly - the concept of faith can be applied to different things. Harry notes that the reason crosses ward off vampires is the faith that is imbued into the symbol and that the person wielding it contains. Harry has faith in magic, and uses his pentacle necklace to deter vampires in the first book.
** [[spoiler: Odin]] and Harry seemed to get on well enough, but that's mostly because the conversation was respectful on both sides, force slamming into the floor notwithstanding.
*** Though he most likely has issues with Dionysus, due to a run in he had with some fanatics in one of the short stories.

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** When it comes to the capital G God, Dresden seems to basically think that He has good intentions, but wishes he would get a bit more involved with the world (at one point he even [[RageAgainstTheHeavens calls out God]] for apparently doing nothing when the [[FallenAngel Knights of the Blackened Denarius]] seem to get direct aid from Satan, which leads to Michael getting severely injured). God, for His part, seems to like Dresden regardless, seeing how the Knights of the Cross are often in an ideal position to save him [[spoiler: and grants him access to Soulfire (the same power source as the angels have) in retaliation for Satan's assistance to the Denarians (and possibly also as reward for successfully resisting his own FallenAngel).]]
** It is also important to note that the Christian God is not given special significance in the setting. Referred to by various godlike supernatural entities as "The White God".
*** [[TheFairFolk Queen Mab]] seems to treat Him and His archangels with a measure of respect (she likes Uriel best).
**** Roughly half the planet worships the god of Abraham in one form or another, and most of the rest have at least heard of him. If faith powers gods, then that is a metric fuckton of raw power, and Mab definitely respects that.
**** Agreed, power for the gods comes with worship. "The White God" does have special significance, because He has the most devotees. And I'd say, especially after Ghost Story, that it's clear he 'believes' in God. He just can't accept the rules "The White God" puts on himself, when both evil and the older gods are perfectly willing to play a hand directly.

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** When it comes to the capital G God, Dresden seems to basically think that [[GodIsGood He has good intentions]], but wishes he would get a bit more involved with the world (at one point he even [[RageAgainstTheHeavens calls out God]] for apparently doing nothing when the [[FallenAngel Knights of the Blackened Denarius]] seem to get direct aid from Satan, which leads to Michael getting severely injured). God, for His part, seems to like Dresden regardless, seeing how the Knights of the Cross are often in an ideal position to save him [[spoiler: and grants him access to Soulfire (the same power source as the angels have) in retaliation for Satan's assistance to the Denarians (and possibly also as reward for successfully resisting his own FallenAngel).]] It is also important to note that the Christian God is not given special significance in the setting. Referred to by various godlike supernatural entities as "The White God".[[TheFairFolk Queen Mab]] seems to treat Him and His archangels with a measure of respect (she likes Uriel best).Roughly half the planet worships the god of Abraham in one form or another, and most of the rest have at least heard of him. If faith powers gods, then that is a metric fuckton of raw power, and Mab definitely respects that.

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28th Mar '13 12:38:12 AM Korodzik

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19th Mar '13 9:31:31 AM AFP

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