History Main / MortonsFork

28th Apr '16 5:29:33 PM nmn3r3
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* ''Machinima/{{Smashtasm}}'' has the scene where Grant and Gront are reporting to Girem6. Gront keeps pissing off Girem6, which leads said BigBad to order another mook to inflict pain on Grant. After a few hits, and asking why he's the one being punished, Grant is told that "[[IWillPunishYourFriendForYourFailure Hitting the partner of the offender encourages discipline.]]" Grant tries to get even by insulting his boss, who orders him to be punished anyway, "Because I blame your friend for that comment."

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* ''Machinima/{{Smashtasm}}'' has the scene where Grant and Gront are reporting to Girem6. [=Girem6=]. Gront keeps pissing off Girem6, [=Girem6=], which leads said BigBad to order another mook to inflict pain on Grant. After a few hits, and asking why he's the one being punished, Grant is told that "[[IWillPunishYourFriendForYourFailure Hitting the partner of the offender encourages discipline.]]" Grant tries to get even by insulting his boss, who orders him to be punished anyway, "Because I blame your friend for that comment."
28th Apr '16 4:31:40 PM LinTaylor
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* A non-negative version occurs in ''VideoGame/KingsQuest2015'' Chapter 3: King Graham goes to rescue a princess from a tower and ends up finding two: [[BettyAndVeronica one level-headed and serious and the other cheerful and adventurous]]. There is no "wrong" choice; whomever the player chooses will turn out to be Valanice, Graham's wife from the original ''VideoGame/KingsQuest'' games.
26th Apr '16 7:34:28 PM karstovich2
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* The "Jonah Complex" in psychology, where if you fail something you beat yourself up over it because you're not skilled enough, yet if you succeed you attribute it to pure luck or cheating and still beat yourself up over it for not being skilled. Perfectionists and sufferers of "impostor syndrome"[[note]]A psychological phenomenon in which a successful member of a minority or other disadvantaged group cannot internalize his/her own success and thinks him/herself a fraud, with all signs of their own competence being dismissed as luck/timing/accidentally deceiving others into thinking he/she is smarter than he/she really is. It was first noted among professional women, but it's common in many fields among many disadvantaged groups.[[/note]] frequently have this mindset. Surveys indicate that between 50% and 70% of people in the US feel like this at times, so [[YouAreNotAlone this is much more common than you might think]].

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* The "Jonah Complex" in psychology, where if you fail something you beat yourself up over it because you're not skilled enough, yet if you succeed you attribute it to pure luck or cheating and still beat yourself up over it for not being skilled. Perfectionists and sufferers of "impostor syndrome"[[note]]A psychological phenomenon in which a successful member of a minority or other disadvantaged group cannot internalize his/her own success and thinks him/herself a fraud, with all signs of their own competence being dismissed as luck/timing/accidentally deceiving others into thinking he/she is smarter than he/she really is. It was first noted among professional women, but it's common in many fields among many disadvantaged groups.groups, although women and racial/ethnic minorities in the professions are the most typical examples.[[/note]] frequently have this mindset. Surveys indicate that between 50% and 70% of people in the US feel like this at times, so [[YouAreNotAlone this is much more common than you might think]].
25th Apr '16 9:49:03 AM Blazer
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* Screenwriter C. Robert Cargill [[http://www.newsarama.com/28987-dr-strange-screenwriter-says-they-knew-social-justice-warriors-would-be-angry-over-the-ancient-one.html explained]] the Morton's Fork in casting the ''Film/DoctorStrange'' character The Ancient One in modern times due to its many factors. The first is the fact that, in the comics, The Ancient One was from Tibet - in China, Tibet is a political landmine where they consider Tibet to be a non-entity and by acknowledging it, you risk losing out on one of the biggest film-watching countries in the world because you accidentally got political. The other are the Social Justice Warriors - they believe that the easiest way to fix this is to make the character of another Asian descent. Of course, this perpetuates the MightyWhitey trope even more and can be seen as insulting to whatever culture they chose. So, it's either pissing off one of their biggest money makers, pissing off their neighbors or pissing off the PC portion of the fanbase; either way, someone loses.
23rd Apr '16 3:05:37 AM yisfidri
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* [[http://notalwaysright.com/i-cry-you-cry-we-all-cry-for-ice-cream/2042 It either isnít crunched up enough or you won't see it]]. Who said a Morton's Fork cannot be hilarious? From [[Website/NotAlwaysRight the same site]] is [[http://notalwaysright.com/a-picture-is-worth-a-thousand-woes/21598 a more traditional version]], when someone tries to steal a camera and is found out. As the security guard puts it:

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* [[http://notalwaysright.com/i-cry-you-cry-we-all-cry-for-ice-cream/2042 It either isnít crunched up enough or you won't see it]]. Who said a Morton's Fork cannot be hilarious? From [[Website/NotAlwaysRight the same site]] is [[http://notalwaysright.com/a-picture-is-worth-a-thousand-woes/21598 a more traditional version]], when someone tries to steal a camera girl's camera, which happens to contain some provocative selfies, and is found out.out via YouJustToldMe. As the security guard puts it:
14th Apr '16 7:51:44 PM MyFinalEdits
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* At the end of ''TheHungerGames'', the Head Gamemaker (Seneca Crane) can either let two tributes win, or let them commit suicide and have no victor at all. Either way, he basically sealed his fate when he introduced that "two tributes can win if from the same district" rule change in the first place.
** And the rule in question itself was created as a BaitAndSwitch to set up another Morton's Fork. By tricking Katniss and Peeta into thinking they could both win, then [[ScrewTheRulesIMakeThem changing the rules back at the last minute]], each of them has to choose between dying or living with the guilt of murdering a friend for the entertainment of the bastard who put them up to it. Katniss figures out how to TakeAThirdOption.

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* At the end of ''TheHungerGames'', ''Literature/TheHungerGames'', the Head Gamemaker (Seneca Crane) can either let two tributes win, or let them commit suicide and have no victor at all. Either way, he basically sealed his fate when he introduced that "two tributes can win if from the same district" rule change in the first place.
**
place. And the rule in question itself was created as a BaitAndSwitch to set up another Morton's Fork. By tricking Katniss and Peeta into thinking they could both win, then [[ScrewTheRulesIMakeThem changing the rules back at the last minute]], each of them has to choose between dying or living with the guilt of murdering a friend for the entertainment of the bastard who put them up to it. Katniss figures out how to TakeAThirdOption.



** The [[TheFundamentalist Ishgardians]] in FinalFantasyXIV deal with suspected heretics in a manner reminiscent of historical [[BurnTheWitch witch trials]] from RealLife. The accused heretic is flung into a ravine at [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin Witchdrop]]. If they're innocent, they'll die, and be considered to have died with honor. Those who actually consort with dragons, it is believed, will sprout wings or call upon their draconic allies to save them, and will then be killed by the Inquisitors.
*** This of course gets even worse when [[spoiler:one of those same Inquisitors is revealed to be a dragon in disguise, murdering innocent Ishgardians by planting false evidence of heresy, and anyone who points out this fact is of course accused of heresy]].

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** The [[TheFundamentalist Ishgardians]] in FinalFantasyXIV ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyXIV'' deal with suspected heretics in a manner reminiscent of historical [[BurnTheWitch witch trials]] from RealLife. The accused heretic is flung into a ravine at [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin Witchdrop]]. If they're innocent, they'll die, and be considered to have died with honor. Those who actually consort with dragons, it is believed, will sprout wings or call upon their draconic allies to save them, and will then be killed by the Inquisitors. \n*** This of course gets even worse when [[spoiler:one of those same Inquisitors is revealed to be a dragon in disguise, murdering innocent Ishgardians by planting false evidence of heresy, and anyone who points out this fact is of course accused of heresy]].



** Not that it matters to Ivan, since [[TooDumbToFool he doesn't like Sandoval enough to go for the antidote anyway]].



*** It's less of a Morton's Fork from O-Chul's perspective, as he genuinely doesn't have any information to reveal, so he's just [[AndIMustScream stuck with watching a bunch of people die horribly for no reason at all]]. The tries to TakeAThirdOption by making up an outlandish story in the hopes that Redcloak will believe him and spare the prisoners (which wouldn't be a violation of his oath because the info is fake), but he's such a horrible liar (he is a [[LawfulGood PALADIN]] after all) that Redcloak sees right through it.



*** Being raped by someone you were in a relationship with doesn't require justifying your presence in a dark alley, but leads to questions of how they were supposed to know you didn't want it that time (because apparently they're too stupid to notice you said "NO") and interrogation about why you didn't immediately break up (or if you DID immediately break up, how you were able to talk to them in order to tell them it was over because any communication is suspect). Any feelings for them, current or past, is treated as proof it wasn't REALLY rape.
** Any confusion in the victim's story is treated as proof they're lying, but perfect recall is difficult enough under normal circumstances, and even harder if an emotionally traumatized person is trying to remember events that happened in the dark and involved them being [[TapOnTheHead beaten in the head]].
** Anyone taking any psychiatric medications is considered unreliable. But so is anyone with an untreated mental illness. And [[ThereAreNoTherapists anyone who's seeing a therapist for any reason]].
*** Also, if you speak to a counselor or a friend before reporting the rape to the police, or delay at all to calm down you're obviously lying because you didn't report it immediately. But if you DON'T take time to calm down, you're dismissed as too emotional.


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*** Being raped by someone you were in a relationship with doesn't require justifying your presence in a dark alley, but leads to questions of how they were supposed to know you didn't want it that time (because apparently they're too stupid to notice you said "NO") and interrogation about why you didn't immediately break up (or if you DID immediately break up, how you were able to talk to them in order to tell them it was over because any communication is suspect). Any feelings for them, current or past, is treated as proof it wasn't REALLY rape.
** Any confusion in the victim's story is treated as proof they're lying, but perfect recall is difficult enough under normal circumstances, and even harder if an emotionally traumatized person is trying to remember events that happened in the dark and involved them being [[TapOnTheHead beaten in the head]].
head]].
** Anyone taking any psychiatric medications is considered unreliable. But so is anyone with an untreated mental illness. And [[ThereAreNoTherapists anyone who's seeing a therapist for any reason]]. \n*** Also, if you speak to a counselor or a friend before reporting the rape to the police, or delay at all to calm down you're obviously lying because you didn't report it immediately. But if you DON'T take time to calm down, you're dismissed as too emotional. \n\n



* Victims of AbusiveParents can end up in this kind of situation. Either they keep taking the abuse, leading to emotional/physical/mental injury or worse, death or suicide. Or, they try to get help, leading to being taken away to a sometimes ''horrible'' foster home, or being brought back after the police believe the offending parents have been rehabilitated, resulting in some serious punishment on the child who got them in trouble. Lastly, if they try to fight back in defense, usually the law will blame the child for harming their own parents regardless of why, placing them in jail where they'll suffer severe harassment once again.

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* Abuse-related examples:
**
Victims of AbusiveParents can end up in this kind of situation. Either they keep taking the abuse, leading to emotional/physical/mental injury or worse, death or suicide. Or, they try to get help, leading to being taken away to a sometimes ''horrible'' foster home, or being brought back after the police believe the offending parents have been rehabilitated, resulting in some serious punishment on the child who got them in trouble. Lastly, if they try to fight back in defense, usually the law will blame the child for harming their own parents regardless of why, placing them in jail where they'll suffer severe harassment once again.



*** Speaking of kids of abusive couples, abusers have been known to sabotage birth control (often secretly) in order to trick their victims into having a child with them. This can lead to such things as blaming the victim for a failure of birth control that the abuser caused and beating a (female) victim severely enough to induce a miscarriage then blaming her for it. If the pregnancy [[GoneHorriblyWrong goes wrong]], the victim is blamed and punished for it, but [[GoneHorriblyRight if it goes right]] it's even harder for them to get away and there's a new victim.

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*** Speaking of kids of abusive couples, abusers ** Abusers have been known to sabotage birth control (often secretly) in order to trick their victims into having a child with them. This can lead to such things as blaming the victim for a failure of birth control that the abuser caused and beating a (female) victim severely enough to induce a miscarriage then blaming her for it. If the pregnancy [[GoneHorriblyWrong goes wrong]], the victim is blamed and punished for it, but [[GoneHorriblyRight if it goes right]] it's even harder for them to get away and there's a new victim.



** People who make these arguments of course deny the existence of trans men.



** While not reporting it immediately can lead to being accused of lying
14th Apr '16 12:35:44 PM phantomreader42
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** And the rule in question itself was created as a BaitAndSwitch to set up another Morton's Fork. By tricking Katniss and Peeta into thinking they could both win, then [[ScrewTheRulesIMakeThem changing the rules back at the last minute]], each of them has to choose between dying or living with the guilt of murdering a friend for the entertainment of the bastard who put them up to it. Katniss figures out how to TakeAThirdOption.


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** The [[TheFundamentalist Ishgardians]] in FinalFantasyXIV deal with suspected heretics in a manner reminiscent of historical [[BurnTheWitch witch trials]] from RealLife. The accused heretic is flung into a ravine at [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin Witchdrop]]. If they're innocent, they'll die, and be considered to have died with honor. Those who actually consort with dragons, it is believed, will sprout wings or call upon their draconic allies to save them, and will then be killed by the Inquisitors.
*** This of course gets even worse when [[spoiler:one of those same Inquisitors is revealed to be a dragon in disguise, murdering innocent Ishgardians by planting false evidence of heresy, and anyone who points out this fact is of course accused of heresy]].


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*** It's less of a Morton's Fork from O-Chul's perspective, as he genuinely doesn't have any information to reveal, so he's just [[AndIMustScream stuck with watching a bunch of people die horribly for no reason at all]]. The tries to TakeAThirdOption by making up an outlandish story in the hopes that Redcloak will believe him and spare the prisoners (which wouldn't be a violation of his oath because the info is fake), but he's such a horrible liar (he is a [[LawfulGood PALADIN]] after all) that Redcloak sees right through it.


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* [[http://www.robot-hugs.com/perfect-victim/ This]] RobotHugs strip discusses some of the many difficulties of being a "Perfect Rape Victim", including multiple Morton's Forks, both explicit and implied, and sadly TruthInTelevision.
** A rape victim who fights back is accused of provoking the rapist and blamed for their injuries, but NOT fighting back is treated as a sign that it wasn't really rape.
** A rape victim who acts emotional gets accused of overacting and thus lying, but NOT acting emotional is treated as proof that they're making it up.
** If you were raped by a stranger in a dark alley (which is actually pretty rare), people are more likely to believe your story, but then they question why you were in a dark alley.
*** Being raped by someone you were in a relationship with doesn't require justifying your presence in a dark alley, but leads to questions of how they were supposed to know you didn't want it that time (because apparently they're too stupid to notice you said "NO") and interrogation about why you didn't immediately break up (or if you DID immediately break up, how you were able to talk to them in order to tell them it was over because any communication is suspect). Any feelings for them, current or past, is treated as proof it wasn't REALLY rape.
** Any confusion in the victim's story is treated as proof they're lying, but perfect recall is difficult enough under normal circumstances, and even harder if an emotionally traumatized person is trying to remember events that happened in the dark and involved them being [[TapOnTheHead beaten in the head]].
** Anyone taking any psychiatric medications is considered unreliable. But so is anyone with an untreated mental illness. And [[ThereAreNoTherapists anyone who's seeing a therapist for any reason]].
*** Also, if you speak to a counselor or a friend before reporting the rape to the police, or delay at all to calm down you're obviously lying because you didn't report it immediately. But if you DON'T take time to calm down, you're dismissed as too emotional.



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*** Speaking of kids of abusive couples, abusers have been known to sabotage birth control (often secretly) in order to trick their victims into having a child with them. This can lead to such things as blaming the victim for a failure of birth control that the abuser caused and beating a (female) victim severely enough to induce a miscarriage then blaming her for it. If the pregnancy [[GoneHorriblyWrong goes wrong]], the victim is blamed and punished for it, but [[GoneHorriblyRight if it goes right]] it's even harder for them to get away and there's a new victim.


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** People who make these arguments of course deny the existence of trans men.


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** While not reporting it immediately can lead to being accused of lying
13th Apr '16 8:10:10 PM immblueversion
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** "The Crystal Empire" gives us several, courtesy of [[SorcerousOverlord King]] [[MagnificentBastard Sombra]]. Celestia and Luna were forced to seal him away in order to prevent him from using the Empire's special powers to become an uber-FisherKing over all of Equestria, but the sealing inadvertently triggered his backup curse to make the Empire vanish until his return. Shining Armor must hold him off long enough for Twilight's group to make it to safety, but Shining's efforts only earn him a PowerNullifier curse and uselessness for nearly the rest of the episode(s). Cadance is absolutely exhausting herself in trying to maintain her DeflectorShields to keep Sombra at bay, but her taking a breather will only allow him to return to the Empire that much sooner. Twilight and Spike must find the Crystal Heart -- the only surefire way to stop Sombra -- before Cadance's time runs out, but the Heart is guarded by several {{Booby Trap}}s that only a rare few can pass... and even when Twilight and Spike find it anyway, they trigger a backup curse that not only imprisons her but prevents her from using her magic to escape as well (effectively putting her in Shining's predicament). Either way, Sombra ultimately returns to the Empire, and the only ones capable of stopping him are now incapacitated, while he remains fresh due to all of his waiting. Only some ''very'' desperate last-second actions by Spike, Shining, and Cadance manage to avert a DownerEnding.

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** "The Crystal Empire" gives us several, courtesy of [[SorcerousOverlord King]] [[MagnificentBastard Sombra]]. Celestia and Luna were forced to seal him away in order to prevent him from using the Empire's special powers to become an uber-FisherKing over all of Equestria, but the sealing inadvertently triggered his backup curse to make the Empire vanish until his return. Shining Armor must hold him off long enough for Twilight's group to make it to safety, but Shining's his efforts only earn him a PowerNullifier curse and uselessness for nearly the rest of the episode(s). Cadance is absolutely exhausting herself in trying to maintain her DeflectorShields to keep Sombra at bay, but her taking a breather will only allow him to return to the Empire that much sooner. Twilight and Spike must find the Crystal Heart -- the only surefire way to stop Sombra -- before Cadance's time runs out, but the Heart is guarded by several {{Booby Trap}}s that only a rare few can pass... and even when Twilight and Spike find it anyway, they trigger a backup curse that not only imprisons her but prevents her from using her magic to escape as well (effectively putting her in Shining's Shining Armor's predicament). Either way, Sombra ultimately returns to the Empire, and the only ones capable of stopping him are now incapacitated, while he remains fresh due to all of his waiting. Only some ''very'' desperate last-second actions by Spike, Shining, Shining Armor, and Cadance manage to avert a DownerEnding.
12th Apr '16 8:39:44 AM esq263
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* This can be a real problem for people who consistently have problems with bullying. If they rise to any insults the bully throws at them, well, that might be what the bully is trying to do, usually because said victim's reaction is amusing to them. If they ''ignore'' the bully, though, it's highly likely that they'll just keep doing it anyway, either because they just don't like their target, or they know that if they have to keep putting up with it without doing anything, even if they don't explode, said victim makes a lovely verbal (or physical) punching bag for stress relief, or will break down from all the hate they've received, ensuring the bully has power over them.

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* This can be a real problem for people who consistently have problems with bullying. If they rise to any insults the bully throws at them, well, that might be what the bully is trying to do, usually because said victim's reaction is amusing to them. If they ''ignore'' the bully, though, it's highly likely that they'll just keep doing it anyway, anyway (or even escalate the bullying), either because they just don't like their target, or they know that if they have to keep putting up with it without doing anything, even if they don't explode, said victim makes a lovely verbal (or physical) punching bag for stress relief, or will break down from all the hate they've received, ensuring the bully has power over them.
9th Apr '16 5:20:23 PM AnonFangeekGirl
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* Quite a few riddles involve a rigged "choice" between a powerful person and a lesser person in the presence of an arbiter. It is a choice of two items (such as a pair of cards, one with a black spot, the other blank); one choice (in this case, the black spot) generally means death to the person, while the other means life. Unbeknownst to the arbiter, ''both'' cards are marked with the black spot. The lesser person, however, ''does'' know (or suspect) the trick, but the lesser person cannot simply abandon this choice because it would ''also'' result in death, and trying to call out the more powerful person would be no better. How does the lesser person survive? [[spoiler:Choose a card, then immediately [[EatTheEvidence eat it]] before anyone else can see it. [[HoistByHisOwnPetard The remaining card will be a black spot, so the arbiter will assume that the lesser person consumed the blank.]] And if it turns out the powerful person ''was'' being fair after all, the lesser person would likely be no worse off than they would be if they'd simply showed their card.]] [[spoiler:Unless of course, the noble was either expecting trick or trying to be kind while putting on a show of sadism. If both cards are secretly blank, then the arbiter will be convinced that the eaten card was the one with the black spot. If the Noble is trying to stealthily be kind, he may have political reasons for allowing the arbiter to go ahead and continue believing this. Thus, this is a scenario in which eating the card ensures your death.]]

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* Quite a few riddles involve a rigged "choice" between a powerful person and a lesser person in the presence of an arbiter. It is a choice of two items (such as a pair of cards, one with a black spot, the other blank); one choice (in this case, the black spot) generally means death to the person, while the other means life. Unbeknownst to the arbiter, ''both'' cards are marked with the black spot. The lesser person, however, ''does'' know (or suspect) the trick, but the lesser person cannot simply abandon this choice because it would ''also'' result in death, and trying to call out the more powerful person would be no better. How does the lesser person survive? [[spoiler:Choose a card, then immediately [[EatTheEvidence eat it]] before anyone else can see it. [[HoistByHisOwnPetard The remaining card will be a black spot, so the arbiter will assume that the lesser person consumed the blank.]] And if it turns out the powerful person ''was'' being fair after all, the lesser person would likely be no worse off than they would be if they'd simply showed their card.]] [[spoiler:Unless of course, the noble was either expecting trick or trying to be kind while putting on a show of sadism. If both cards are secretly blank, then the arbiter will be convinced that the eaten card was the one with the black spot. If the Noble is trying to stealthily be kind, he may have political reasons for allowing the arbiter to go ahead and continue believing this. Thus, this is a scenario in which eating the card ensures your death.]]
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