History Main / MoreCriminalsThanTargets

22nd May '16 2:53:47 PM ZerroDefex
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*** Lmpshaded in some notes found in Powder Ganger camps along I-15 indicating that the smarter members have realized that the caravans are coming up the road less and less and that they cannot sustain themselves this way so some have left for Vault 19 instead.

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*** Lmpshaded in some Some notes found in Powder Ganger camps along I-15 lampshade this by indicating that the smarter members have it has been realized by some members that the caravans are coming up the road less and less due to the constant raiding and that they cannot sustain themselves this way so some way. A large number of them have left for before the Courier comes through and can be found at Vault 19 instead.later in the game.
22nd May '16 2:51:59 PM ZerroDefex
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*** Lmpshaded in some notes found in Powder Ganger camps along I-15 indicating that the smarter members have realized that the caravans are coming up the road less and less and that they cannot sustain themselves this way so some have left for Vault 19 instead.
19th Apr '16 12:37:43 PM 20person
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** Can be averted in ''VideoGame/{{Fallout 4}}'' if you build enough settlements with high enough populations.
15th Mar '16 10:29:03 PM dalek955
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*In ''Literature/TheIronTeeth'', after the fall of Coroulis [[GrimUpNorth the North]] is becoming infested with so many bandits that trade is drying up and the bands are turning on each other. Herad plans to centralize them all and eventually turn them into a nation under her rule.



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26th Nov '15 1:23:36 PM Discar
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* In ''Literature/{{Discworld}}'', this is Ankh-Morpork before the Watch starts actually fighting crime. In the early books, it was a parody of the average fantasy-setting city entirely occupied by thieves, thugs, assassins and innkeepers. When Twoflower shows up, at least half of the people he meets are trying to figure out how to scam him. He remains oblivious.
** Justified in that Twoflower has come to Ankh-Morpork ''specifically'' to visit places like [[BadGuyBar The Broken Drum]], [[RedLightDistrict the whore pits]] and similar "colorful" locations. He hasn't come all the way from [[spoiler: the Agatean Empire]] to see the Street of Cunning Tax Attorneys.
** Though, this is as much because of the dishonesty of the average Morpork citizen as the amount of professional thieves.
** Yes, the average A-M citizen is out to cheat everyone else, even the citizens who are not thieves by profession. It's part of the culture.

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* In ''Literature/{{Discworld}}'', this ''Literature/{{Discworld}}'':
** This
is Ankh-Morpork before the Watch starts actually fighting crime. In the early books, it was a parody of the average fantasy-setting city entirely occupied by thieves, thugs, assassins and innkeepers. When Twoflower shows up, at least half of the people he meets are trying to figure out how to scam him. He remains oblivious.
**
oblivious. Justified in that Twoflower has come to Ankh-Morpork ''specifically'' to visit places like [[BadGuyBar The Broken Drum]], [[RedLightDistrict the whore pits]] and similar "colorful" locations. He hasn't come all the way from [[spoiler: the Agatean Empire]] to see the Street of Cunning Tax Attorneys.
** Though, this is as much because of the dishonesty of the average Morpork citizen as the amount of professional thieves.
** Yes, the average A-M citizen is out to cheat everyone else, even the citizens who are not thieves by profession.
thieves. It's part of the culture.



** It's a different small village each week though... Midsomer is an entire fictional county. Point still stands though; you wouldn't think it would be so gentrified with that kind of murder rate...
*** A different village every week, yes, but there are only six or seven villages in the county so by the time it's, say, Midsomer Mallow's turn again (or Badger's Drift, which seems to bear the brunt of the murder rate) it's not like the birth rate has nearly made up for last month's bloodbath.



* ''TabletopGame/{{Shadowrun}}'' fits the bill. Various books mentions Seattle having about 1000 to 2000 Shadowrunners (illegal wetwork mercenaries that will do any job deemed illegal for anyone who'll pay). Though this future Seattle does have a huge population, how much work can there be in a single city for so many mercenaries to find work?.
** It kind of helps that ''every'' employer in the city has need of Shadowrunners. Including some of the older, richer 'Runners.
** Also, not all of the runs take place in Seattle, not even in the same nation (there's NAN, Tír Tairngire and California Free State nearby - as I recall, at least one of them borders the city). For most Shadowrunners, Seattle is just the most convenient base of operations on the continent.
** Plus, this isn't a simple city. The Seattle Metroplex is basically a 2070s city-state, with a population higher than many modern countries. The average citizens aren't street toughs or Runners, they're the millions of perfectly normal wageslaves living their mundane little lives behind all the security and comfort of their favorite megacorp (after all, forcing your workers into poverty and death reduces productivity and profitability). Those couple thousand Shadowrunners are the rare tools used by the major players in the city, doing the sabotage and espionage that big corporations use to one-up each other, not a large portion of the overall population.
* Predatory variant: The ''TabletopGame/{{Ravenloft}}'' setting's largest territory, the Core, is roughly the size of Denmark, and most of its domains have populations in the low thousands. Yet it somehow sustains ''massive'' numbers of vampires, werebeasts, and other monsters that pass for human in public, while subsisting wholly or largely on human prey. Never mind how they can maintain the {{masquerade}} when [[FlockOfWolves half the population is a monster in disguise]]: unless the monsters are eating each other, there shouldn't be anybody left alive there!
** Ravenloft is constantly kidnapping people from other planes, so it actually makes sense that they would need to be disposed of to prevent overpopulation.
** It's common for Dungeon Masters to houserule the populations to make them bigger to alleviate this bit of Fridge Logic.
*** Alternatively, the number of monsters in Ravenloft is actually pretty low for a D&D setting - the majority of people never even get close to seeing a monster in the flesh.
* Luskan of D&D should have collapsed long ago as it is basically made of criminals.
** 1) AWizardDidIt (Luskan has one of the major wizards' guilds of the region. It happens to be evil, but still). 2) Luskan may be dominated by criminals, but the ''region'' isn't -- Luskan is something of a pirate port, and there's a fair amount of seaborne trade going on in the area.
* In a trophic rather than economic version, the demiplane of Grixis in the "Shards of Alara" block of ''TabletopGame/MagicTheGathering'' is populated almost entirely by undead predators, with few living creatures and no equivalent of photosynthesis that would introduce new energy into the ecosystem. Many cards take note of the problem of Grixis' ecosystem (such as it is) winding down, a problem eventually mitigated by the collision of the shards.

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* ''TabletopGame/{{Shadowrun}}'' fits the bill. ''TabletopGame/{{Shadowrun}}'':
**
Various books mentions Seattle having about 1000 to 2000 Shadowrunners (illegal wetwork mercenaries that will do any job deemed illegal for anyone who'll pay). Though this future Seattle does have a huge population, how much work can there be in a single city for so many mercenaries to find work?.
**
work?. It kind of helps that ''every'' employer in the city has need of Shadowrunners. Including some of the older, richer 'Runners.
** Also, not all of
'Runners. Keep in mind that the runs take place in Seattle, not even in the same nation (there's NAN, Tír Tairngire and California Free State nearby - as I recall, at least one of them borders the city). For most Shadowrunners, Seattle is just the most convenient base of operations on the continent.
** Plus, this isn't a simple city. The
Seattle Metroplex is basically a 2070s city-state, with a population higher than many modern countries. The average citizens aren't street toughs or Runners, they're the millions of perfectly normal wageslaves living their mundane little lives behind all the security and comfort of their favorite megacorp (after all, forcing your workers into poverty and death reduces productivity and profitability). Those couple thousand Shadowrunners are the rare tools used by the major players in the city, doing the sabotage and espionage that big corporations use to one-up each other, not a large portion of the overall population.
** Not all of the runs take place in Seattle, not even in the same nation (there's NAN, Tír Tairngire and California Free State nearby - as I recall, at least one of them borders the city). For most Shadowrunners, Seattle is just the most convenient base of operations on the continent.
* ''TabletopGame/{{Ravenloft}}'': Predatory variant: The ''TabletopGame/{{Ravenloft}}'' setting's largest territory, the Core, is roughly the size of Denmark, and most of its domains have populations in the low thousands. Yet it somehow sustains ''massive'' numbers of vampires, werebeasts, and other monsters that pass for human in public, while subsisting wholly or largely on human prey. Never mind how they can maintain the {{masquerade}} when [[FlockOfWolves half the population is a monster in disguise]]: unless the monsters are eating each other, there shouldn't be anybody left alive there!
**
there. Ravenloft is constantly kidnapping people from other planes, so it actually makes sense that they would need to be disposed of to prevent overpopulation.
**
overpopulation. It's common for Dungeon Masters to houserule the populations to make them bigger to alleviate this bit of Fridge Logic.
*** Alternatively, the number of monsters in Ravenloft is actually pretty low for a D&D setting - the majority of people never even get close to seeing a monster in the flesh.
* Luskan of D&D should have collapsed long ago as it is basically made of criminals.
** 1) AWizardDidIt (Luskan has one of the major wizards' guilds of the region. It happens to be evil, but still). 2)
criminals. That being said, Luskan may be dominated by criminals, but the ''region'' isn't -- Luskan is something of a pirate port, and there's a fair amount of seaborne trade going on in the area.
* ''TabletopGame/MagicTheGathering'':
**
In a trophic rather than economic version, the demiplane of Grixis in the "Shards of Alara" block of ''TabletopGame/MagicTheGathering'' is populated almost entirely by undead predators, with few living creatures and no equivalent of photosynthesis that would introduce new energy into the ecosystem. Many cards take note of the problem of Grixis' ecosystem (such as it is) winding down, a problem eventually mitigated by the collision of the shards.



* ''VideoGame/{{Borderlands}}'' has maybe, what, 25 non raider [=NPCs=] on the planet? And several thousands bandit, raiders, and other such people? Somewhat handwave by the backstory of Pandora having been populated with convicted criminals.
** The backstory more or less goes like this: One of the big corporations tried to set up a mine on the planet using convicts as labourers, but the nonviability of this made them lose interest. There was a brief "vault rush" but outside of a few scientists there weren't many people who ever went that never went rogue. Doesn't explain how everyone stays fed and healthy, mind you.
** It's a short timeline: Near the middle of the game is when the bandits start preying on each other (Jaynestown). Give it another decade and the population will stabilize at a smaller level.

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* ''VideoGame/{{Borderlands}}'' ''VideoGame/{{Borderlands}}'':
** The first game
has maybe, what, 25 maybe twenty-five non raider [=NPCs=] on the planet? planet. And several thousands bandit, raiders, and other such people? Somewhat handwave by the backstory of Pandora having been populated with convicted criminals.
**
criminals. The backstory more or less goes like this: One of the big corporations tried to set up a mine on the planet using convicts as labourers, but the nonviability of this made them lose interest. There was a brief "vault rush" but outside of a few scientists there weren't many people who ever went that never went rogue. Doesn't explain how everyone stays fed and healthy, mind you.
**
you. It's a short timeline: Near the middle of the game is when the bandits start preying on each other (Jaynestown). Give it another decade and the population will stabilize at a smaller level.



* ''VideoGame/NeverwinterNights2''. Oh god, yes. Add up the number of thieves you kill in Act 1 and compare it to the population given in the 3.5 setting books, you just killed most of the city!
** [[spoiler:Technically, a lot of them were mooks shipped in from Luskan]], but there's still way more of them than NPC citizens.
** If you join the thieves, there are just as many guardsmen the city won't miss as there are criminals if you join the watch.

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* ''VideoGame/NeverwinterNights2''. Oh god, yes. Add up the number of thieves you kill in Act 1 and compare it to the population given in the 3.5 setting books, you just killed most of the city!
**
city! [[spoiler:Technically, a lot of them were mooks shipped in from Luskan]], but there's still way more of them than NPC citizens.
**
citizens. If you join the thieves, there are just as many guardsmen the city won't miss as there are criminals if you join the watch.



* ''VideoGame/CityOfHeroes''' Paragon City is endlessly populated with [[GangOfHats Gangs of Hats]], MechaMooks, GaiasVengeance monsters, ancient malevolent spirits, demons, aliens, rogue military/black ops groups, {{Corrupt Corporate Executive}}s and their minions, witches, zombies, a MadDoctor's minions, wizards, TheMafia, [[CardboardPrison escaped prisoners]], and a CircusOfFear. It gets a bit of lampshading; people complain about, for instance, repeatedly getting their purses stolen.

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* ''VideoGame/CityOfHeroes''' ''VideoGame/CityOfHeroes'':
**
Paragon City is endlessly populated with [[GangOfHats Gangs of Hats]], MechaMooks, GaiasVengeance monsters, ancient malevolent spirits, demons, aliens, rogue military/black ops groups, {{Corrupt Corporate Executive}}s and their minions, witches, zombies, a MadDoctor's minions, wizards, TheMafia, [[CardboardPrison escaped prisoners]], and a CircusOfFear. It gets a bit of lampshading; people complain about, for instance, repeatedly getting their purses stolen.



** Taken UpToEleven with Rogue Isles, where the ''only'' legitimate businesses seen more the entire freaking city are a bunch of fisheries, and in fact people need to be reminded that their economy is ''not'' just a endless cycle of people stealing from eachother.
* ''VideoGame/{{Fallout}}'' in general suffers from this, number three in particular being the major offender. Tennpenny Tower and Rivet City get a pass due to sheer numbers and relative isolation. The smaller settlements, however, consist of four-ten people, three of which are would-be soldiers on patrol, max. Even the standard group of six to nine raiders could have a field day against Megaton's lone sheriff and security robot. It is worth noting that the settlement of Evergreen Mills does get overrun by a large raider group prior to your departure from the Vault.

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** Taken UpToEleven with Rogue Isles, where the ''only'' legitimate businesses seen more the entire freaking city are a bunch of fisheries, and in fact people need to be reminded that their economy is ''not'' just a endless cycle of people stealing from eachother.
each other.
* ''VideoGame/{{Fallout}}'' ''VideoGame/{{Fallout}}'':
** The setting
in general suffers from this, number three in particular being the major offender. Tennpenny Tower and Rivet City get a pass due to sheer numbers and relative isolation. The smaller settlements, however, consist of four-ten people, three of which are would-be soldiers on patrol, max. Even the standard group of six to nine raiders could have a field day against Megaton's lone sheriff and security robot. It is worth noting that the settlement of Evergreen Mills does get overrun by a large raider group prior to your departure from the Vault.



*** A better question about ''VideoGame/{{Fallout 3}}'' is how can the region support so many humans without agriculture (towns have small enough populations and often mutant cattle or at least trade, but there are far too many raiders). Or how so many large predators (like mutant bears or deathclaws) can survive with so few prey items (other then smaller predators, which also have little enough to eat). Then again, if the player character and his companions can live for years on end without food or drink, maybe all that radiation has given everyone the superpower of super nutrition.

to:

*** ** A better question about ''VideoGame/{{Fallout 3}}'' is how can the region support so many humans without agriculture (towns have small enough populations and often mutant cattle or at least trade, but there are far too many raiders). Or how so many large predators (like mutant bears or deathclaws) can survive with so few prey items (other then smaller predators, which also have little enough to eat). Then again, if the player character and his companions can live for years on end without food or drink, maybe all that radiation has given everyone the superpower of super nutrition.



** This trope has largely been averted in ''VideoGame/FalloutNewVegas''. Raiders like the Vipers and Jackals have a relatively small presence in the Mojave Wasteland, largely thanks to the pacifying efforts of the NCR occupiers. In the case of larger groups like the Powder Gangers and Great Khans, they behave more like organized tribes and have motivations other than raiding caravans and settlements for loot.
*** The White Legs tribe in ''Honest Hearts'' play this trope straight in that they are essentially a large group of marauders, and by far the single most powerful tribe in their territory. That being said, it has been outright stated that the White Legs have no agricultural or hunting skills, and that they only know how to take from others in order to survive. Practically every single one of their endings sees them dying out within a year, either because they lack the skills to survive on their own or because their defeat at Zion sees them being set upon by another tribe.

to:

** This trope has largely been averted in ''VideoGame/FalloutNewVegas''. Raiders like the Vipers and Jackals have a relatively small presence in the Mojave Wasteland, largely thanks to the pacifying efforts of the NCR occupiers. In the case of larger groups like the Powder Gangers and Great Khans, they behave more like organized tribes and have motivations other than raiding caravans and settlements for loot.
***
loot. The White Legs tribe in ''Honest Hearts'' play this trope straight in that they are essentially a large group of marauders, and by far the single most powerful tribe in their territory. That being said, it has been outright stated that the White Legs have no agricultural or hunting skills, and that they only know how to take from others in order to survive. Practically every single one of their endings sees them dying out within a year, either because they lack the skills to survive on their own or because their defeat at Zion sees them being set upon by another tribe.



* ''VideoGame/TheElderScrollsVSkyrim'' has bandits - or their spiritual kin, Forsworn and Silver Hand - dwelling in many of the province's caves, and nearly every abandoned watchtower, or crumbling ruin. Their total population is vastly greater than the citizens of the inhabited towns, and their chiefs tend to wear the third-best armor in the game. The same applies to the Thieves' Guild in Riften, which has nearly half as many (visible) members as the population of the city itself.

to:

* ''VideoGame/TheElderScrollsVSkyrim'' has ''VideoGame/TheElderScrollsVSkyrim'':
** There are
bandits - or their spiritual kin, Forsworn and Silver Hand - dwelling in many of the province's caves, and nearly every abandoned watchtower, or crumbling ruin. Their total population is vastly greater than the citizens of the inhabited towns, and their chiefs tend to wear the third-best armor in the game. The same applies to the Thieves' Guild in Riften, which has nearly half as many (visible) members as the population of the city itself.



* In the ''Videogame/{{X}}-Universe'', Pirates and the [[TheMafia Yaki]] typically outnumber civilian traders by 5:1 to 100:1 in the contested Pirate Sectors. However, as a whole, there are less Pirate ships active in the game at any one time than just a single race's trade ships.
** The ''Xtended'' GameMod ''X3: Terran Conflict'' ups the amount of Pirate ships to rival even the main races, though it makes it clear that many of the different Pirate clans are actual navies ran by rogue states, or receive backing from empires to engage in proxy wars.

to:

* In the ''Videogame/{{X}}-Universe'', Pirates and the [[TheMafia Yaki]] typically outnumber civilian traders by 5:1 to 100:1 in the contested Pirate Sectors. However, as a whole, there are less Pirate ships active in the game at any one time than just a single race's trade ships.
**
ships. The ''Xtended'' GameMod ''X3: Terran Conflict'' ups the amount of Pirate ships to rival even the main races, though it makes it clear that many of the different Pirate clans are actual navies ran by rogue states, or receive backing from empires to engage in proxy wars.
30th Oct '15 10:29:57 PM TeraChimera
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* The crime rate of Vatican City is the highest in the world, with more crimes being committed than people living there. However, the vast majority crimes are things like petty theft and committed by outsiders; the Vatican attracts lots of tourists to a relatively small space, making it a pickpocket's paradise.

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* The crime rate of Vatican City is the highest in the world, with more crimes being committed than people living there. However, the vast majority of crimes are things like petty theft and committed by outsiders; the Vatican attracts lots of tourists to a relatively small space, making it a pickpocket's paradise.
29th Oct '15 3:22:04 PM TeraChimera
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[[folder: Real Life]]
* The crime rate of Vatican City is the highest in the world, with more crimes being committed than people living there. However, the vast majority crimes are things like petty theft and committed by outsiders; the Vatican attracts lots of tourists to a relatively small space, making it a pickpocket's paradise.
[[/folder]]
19th Oct '15 9:40:56 PM FordPrefect
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* ''TabletopGame/{{Shadowrun}}'' fits the bill. Various books mentions Seattle having about 1000 to 2000 Shadowrunners (Illegal Wetwork Mercernaries that will do any job deemed illegal for anyone who'll pay). Though this future Seattle does have a huge population, how much work can there be in a single city for so many mercenaries to find work?.

to:

* ''TabletopGame/{{Shadowrun}}'' fits the bill. Various books mentions Seattle having about 1000 to 2000 Shadowrunners (Illegal Wetwork Mercernaries (illegal wetwork mercenaries that will do any job deemed illegal for anyone who'll pay). Though this future Seattle does have a huge population, how much work can there be in a single city for so many mercenaries to find work?.



** Plus, this isn't a simple city. The Seattle Metroplex is basically a 2070s city-state, with a population higher than many modern countries. The average citizen isn't a street tough or a Runner, it's the millions of perfectly normal wageslaves living their mundane little lives behind all the security and comfort of their favorite megacorp (after all, forcing your workers into poverty and death reduces productivity and profitability). Those couple thousand Shadowrunners are the rare tools used by the major players in the city, doing the sabotage and espionage that big corporations use to one-up each other, not a large portion of the overall population.

to:

** Plus, this isn't a simple city. The Seattle Metroplex is basically a 2070s city-state, with a population higher than many modern countries. The average citizen isn't a citizens aren't street tough toughs or a Runner, it's Runners, they're the millions of perfectly normal wageslaves living their mundane little lives behind all the security and comfort of their favorite megacorp (after all, forcing your workers into poverty and death reduces productivity and profitability). Those couple thousand Shadowrunners are the rare tools used by the major players in the city, doing the sabotage and espionage that big corporations use to one-up each other, not a large portion of the overall population.
29th Sep '15 4:17:55 AM Ajardoor
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* Pointedly subverted in the {{Hackmaster}} module Frandor's Keep. The local bandit gang is not entirely profitable, and the leader has to pay for the gang's expenses out of his own pocket for months at a time. The leader started the gang for personal reasons ([[spoiler:revenge on the keep authority]]), rather than hopes of making money.
7th Sep '15 3:41:31 PM pittsburghmuggle
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Are there ''really'' so many rich [[BlueBlood aristocrats]] in the setting that the cunning burglar can rob a new one each week and never run out of targets? Can the poor village-folk ''really'' be menaced by a roving bandit gang for months without actually running out of things for the bandits to steal? Can the fleet of twenty pirate ships ''really'' make a living year-round by lurking outside a port containing just two small fishing boats? Does the road from the town to the lighthouse ''really'' have enough trade on it that the highwayman won't starve? Does the town with only a few hundred people ''really'' have enough work to support a full-time hitman? Sometimes, it's all realistic and justified, but other times, the RuleOfCool (or perhaps simply poor research?) has won out.

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Are there ''really'' so many rich [[BlueBlood aristocrats]] in the setting that the cunning burglar can rob a new one each week and never run out of targets? Can the poor village-folk ''really'' be menaced by a roving bandit gang for months without actually running out of things for the bandits to steal? Can the fleet of twenty pirate ships ''really'' make a living year-round by lurking outside a port containing just two small fishing boats? Does the road from the town to the lighthouse ''really'' have enough trade on it that the highwayman won't starve? Does the town with only a few hundred people ''really'' have enough work to support a full-time hitman? Are the people living in an apocalyptic world, [[DepopulationBomb where 90% of the human race is dead]] really have nothing better to do than rob the protagonists when there should be resources sitting around everywhere for the taking? Sometimes, it's all realistic and justified, but other times, the RuleOfCool (or perhaps simply poor research?) has won out.
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