History Main / MachiavelliWasWrong

30th Apr '18 2:36:28 PM Ea4g
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->''"Whether it be better to be loved than feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be dispensed with. ...\\
Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated."''
-->-- '''Niccolo Machiavelli''', ''Literature/ThePrince'', [[http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/m/machiavelli/niccolo/m149p/chapter17.html Chapter 17]]

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->''"Whether it be ->''"Divide and rule, a sound motto. Unite and lead, a better to be loved than feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be dispensed with. ...\\
Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated.
one."''
-->-- '''Niccolo Machiavelli''', ''Literature/ThePrince'', [[http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/m/machiavelli/niccolo/m149p/chapter17.html Chapter 17]]
-->--'''JohannWolfgangVonGoethe'''
28th Mar '18 10:04:57 PM nombretomado
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* In the ''StarWarsExpandedUniverse'', Grand Admiral Thrawn understands the distinction, but also adds to it the difference between fear and respect. He doesn't execute underlings for failings that are not their fault; he's lethally stern but not murderous, and he commands his men more through respect than either fear or love. That said, he also is entirely willing to use terror tactics against the Nogrhi, and uses mind control on his own men without remorse.

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* In the ''StarWarsExpandedUniverse'', ''Franchise/StarWarsLegends'', Grand Admiral Thrawn understands the distinction, but also adds to it the difference between fear and respect. He doesn't execute underlings for failings that are not their fault; he's lethally stern but not murderous, and he commands his men more through respect than either fear or love. That said, he also is entirely willing to use terror tactics against the Nogrhi, and uses mind control on his own men without remorse.
26th Mar '18 8:48:49 AM Lopiny
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** It's also a constant theme in the Whole Cake Island arc. The sheer fear Big Mom puts in the hearts of her subjects and children is the main thing that allows her to control them all, as she's both immensely powerful and volatile and letting her fly off the handle (be it by mistake, not providing her with exactly the meals she wants, open defiance, or simply being in the way and trying to tell her to stop) is a deadly proposal, forcing everyone to do as she says and generally appease her. However, the many years of this have set up a situation where many of her children are either mentally broken from their abuse, secretly plotting against her due to sheer hate, plotting against each other to save their own skins or simply willing to lie to her face just for the sake of keeping her please. Thus, it all comes to a head during the wedding and the Strawhats' incursion, which cannot be handled with brute force as usual and gets out of hand for the few competent individuals in the group: What should have been a clean assassination becomes a clusterfuck of mythical proportions for everyone involved as long-awaited betrayals, people cracking over being shown actual kindness for the first time in their lives, unwarranted arrogance being challenged and [[FawltyTowersPlot towers of lies building on each other only to fall apart spectacularly]] finally bubble to the surface after building up for years. This leaves the Big Mom pirates desperately trying to catch up and grasp any chance of shutting it down (usually making things worse), if only for the sake of saving face.
20th Mar '18 11:53:50 AM Fireblood
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** There ''is'' however a story that indicates it may have backfired on him ultimately: his aides and staff were so scared of earning his ire, nobody was willing to go "wake him up" when he was oversleeping by hours and hours one day. Turns out he had suffered a stroke, one that ''may'' not have been fatal if it were caught sooner. This, or they just outright lied about it, and pretty much let him die.
* The success of Cyrus the Great is attributed to the fact that (unlike most emperors, ''especially'' the Assyrians whom he conquered) he wasn't a dick to the citizenry (the opposite in fact).
** This became a kind of tradition among Persian emperors.

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** There ''is'' however a story that indicates it may have backfired on him ultimately: his aides and staff were so scared of earning his ire, nobody was willing to go "wake him up" when he was oversleeping by hours and hours one day. Turns out he had suffered a stroke, one that ''may'' not have been fatal if it were caught sooner. This, or they just outright lied about it, and pretty much let him die.
die. It's also claimed by some he may have been poisoned, and if so that means someone was desperate enough to risk being caught for the chance of killing him.
* The success of Cyrus the Great is attributed to the fact that (unlike most emperors, ''especially'' the Assyrians whom he conquered) he wasn't a dick to the citizenry (the opposite in fact). \n** This He was revered by the Jews for letting them (among other people forced into exile from their country by the Babylonians) to return home. It became a kind of tradition among Persian emperors.emperors. Cyrus is also known to history for mostly [[ValuesResonance abolishing slavery]] in the empire (the exception being any captured soldiers).



* During UsefulNotes/WorldWarI the Italian commander-in-chief Luigi Cadorna ruled his troops with harsh discipline, unnecessary punishments, and the threat of being gunned down from the barrier troops if they didn't attack, the only exception being the ''Carabinieri'' (military police, who were acting as said barrier troops) and the Third Army (led by the Duke of Aosta, a relative of the king, second in the line of succession and AFatherToHisMen). When the Austro-Hungarians broke through at the Battle of Caporetto, the soldiers of the Second Army shot their officers, routed the ''Carabinieri'' and started retreating, discussing whether to start the revolution then and there or just return home and transforming the defeat in a CurbStompBattle, with the Third Army forced to retreat before being surrounded. To better drive home the point, when Cadorna was replaced with Armando Diaz (a pupil of the Duke of Aosta, and AFatherToHisMen like him), the soldiers (who during the retreat had also seen Italian civilians running from the invaders) stopped retreating and ''stopped the invasion cold'', while the First Army, that included forces raised from local populations and was supported by enough artillery to realize Cadorna was a WellIntentionedExtremist (and was less tormented by the ''Carabinieri'' for that), resisted.
* This was the end of the ''[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Brigades Brigate Rosse]]'' (Red Brigades) terrorist group: feared enough that one man could rob a bank by walking in and telling the director he was from the Red Brigades (to this day it's unknown if it was a bluff from a lone robber or an actual member of the Brigades), their murder of popular right wing politician Aldo Moro alienated them from both parts of their left wing support base and ''their own founders'' (who had been already caught and convicted years before), who provided the police and the ''Carabinieri'' with the information they needed to track down and arrest numerous members of the Brigades and cut off some of their sources of revenue. Their reprisal murders that targeted, among others, a popular leftist union leader, only caused further hatred and even defections from members that had grown to despise the Brigades' indiscriminate violence more than they hated the Italian government, and the Italian magistrates (who offered lowered sentences and protection to any defectors and kept their word) and police forces were finally able to dismantle the previously unassailable organization thanks to the defectors' information.

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* During UsefulNotes/WorldWarI the Italian commander-in-chief Luigi Cadorna ruled his troops with harsh discipline, unnecessary punishments, and the threat of being gunned down from by the barrier troops if they didn't attack, the only exception being the ''Carabinieri'' (military police, who were acting as said barrier troops) and the Third Army (led by the Duke of Aosta, a relative of the king, second in the line of succession and AFatherToHisMen). When the Austro-Hungarians broke through at the Battle of Caporetto, the soldiers of the Second Army shot their officers, routed the ''Carabinieri'' and started retreating, discussing whether to start the revolution then and there or just return home and transforming the defeat in a CurbStompBattle, with the Third Army forced to retreat before being surrounded. To better drive home the point, when Cadorna was replaced with Armando Diaz (a pupil of the Duke of Aosta, and AFatherToHisMen like him), the soldiers (who during the retreat had also seen Italian civilians running from the invaders) stopped retreating and ''stopped the invasion cold'', while the First Army, that included forces raised from local populations and was supported by enough artillery to realize Cadorna was a WellIntentionedExtremist (and was less tormented by the ''Carabinieri'' for that), resisted.
* This was the end of the ''[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Brigades Brigate Rosse]]'' (Red Brigades) terrorist group: feared enough that one man could rob a bank by walking in and telling the director he was from the Red Brigades (to this day it's unknown if it was a bluff from a lone robber or an actual member of the Brigades), their murder of popular right wing right-wing politician Aldo Moro alienated them from both parts of their left wing left-wing support base and ''their own founders'' (who had been already caught and convicted years before), who provided the police and the ''Carabinieri'' with the information they needed to track down and arrest numerous members of the Brigades and cut off some of their sources of revenue. Their reprisal murders that targeted, among others, a popular leftist union leader, only caused further hatred and even defections from members that had grown to despise the Brigades' indiscriminate violence more than they hated the Italian government, and the Italian magistrates (who offered lowered sentences and protection to any defectors and kept their word) and police forces were finally able to dismantle the previously unassailable organization thanks to the defectors' information.
20th Mar '18 11:46:51 AM Fireblood
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** Then there are the various Northern Houses, who love their liege lords the Starks. They loved the Stark family so such that they, lord and commoner alike, are prepared to march through blizzards or bone-chilling cold in a state of near starvation, or keep on fighting even when all hope is faded, for the sake of the Starks. Even after being [[spoiler:usurped by the Boltons, the North would not bend the knee to them, and House Manderly[[labelnote:*]]Which actually was originally an Andal noble house that was adopted by the Starks into the North after being usurped from their homelands further south[[/labelnote]] are conspiring against the Boltons to bring the Starks back as liege lords]].

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** Then there are the various Northern Houses, who love their liege lords the Starks. They loved the Stark family so such much that they, lord and commoner alike, are prepared to march through blizzards or bone-chilling cold in a state of near starvation, or keep on fighting even when all hope is faded, for the sake of the Starks. Even after being [[spoiler:usurped by the Boltons, the North would not bend the knee to them, and House Manderly[[labelnote:*]]Which actually was originally an Andal noble house that was adopted by the Starks into the North after being usurped from their homelands further south[[/labelnote]] are conspiring against the Boltons to bring the Starks back as liege lords]].
31st Jan '18 7:44:56 AM Romagnadvoratrelundar
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* The contrasting fates of the chimpanzee brothers ''[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasakela_Chimpanzee_Community#Freud Freud and Frodo]]'' are an example of this. Freud built good relationships with the other chimpanzees (although he could be tough too) and when he was unseated as the alpha male, he was able to go into retirement as a middle-ranking male and lived to a ripe old age. Frodo was a large and agressive chimpanzee who ruled by fear. He was violently unseated when he became ill and was then largely isolated, eventually dying of an infected bite wound to his groin.

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* The contrasting fates of the chimpanzee brothers ''[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasakela_Chimpanzee_Community#Freud Freud and Frodo]]'' are an example of this. Freud built good relationships with the other chimpanzees (although he could be tough too) and when he was unseated as the alpha male, he was able to go into retirement as a middle-ranking male and lived to a ripe old age. Frodo was a large and agressive aggressive chimpanzee who ruled by fear. He was violently unseated when he became ill and was then largely isolated, eventually dying of an infected bite wound to his groin.
31st Jan '18 7:43:20 AM Romagnadvoratrelundar
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* The contrasting fates of the chimpanzee brothers ''[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasakela_Chimpanzee_Community#Freud Freud and Frodo]]'' are an example of this. Freud built good relationships with the other chimpanzees (although he could be tough too) and when he was unseated as the alpha male, he was able to go into retirement as a middle-ranking make and lived to a ripe old age. Frodo was a large and agressive chimpanzee who ruled by fear. He was violently unseated when he became ill and was then largely isolated, eventually dying of an infected bite wound to his groin.

to:

* The contrasting fates of the chimpanzee brothers ''[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasakela_Chimpanzee_Community#Freud Freud and Frodo]]'' are an example of this. Freud built good relationships with the other chimpanzees (although he could be tough too) and when he was unseated as the alpha male, he was able to go into retirement as a middle-ranking make male and lived to a ripe old age. Frodo was a large and agressive chimpanzee who ruled by fear. He was violently unseated when he became ill and was then largely isolated, eventually dying of an infected bite wound to his groin.
27th Jan '18 12:15:30 AM DastardlyDemolition
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* In ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'', Konrad Curze's philosophy was that terror was the only way to create order and peace, and practiced it on his own homeworld by leaving the disembowelled corpses of gang bosses and corrupt nobles on display. Much to his regret, as soon as he was no longer around to dismember rapists and murderers, Nostramo slipped back into the same WretchedHive he had fought against. Meanwhile, the Ultramarines under Roboute Guilliman, who wished to be respected and showed their people respect in turn, built a thriving kingdom of proud but good-hearted citizens.

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* In ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'', Konrad Curze's philosophy was that terror was the only way to create order and peace, and practiced it on his own homeworld by leaving the disembowelled disemboweled corpses of gang bosses and corrupt nobles on display. Much to his regret, as soon as he was no longer around to dismember rapists and murderers, Nostramo slipped back into the same WretchedHive he had fought against. Meanwhile, the Ultramarines under Roboute Guilliman, who wished to be respected and showed their people respect in turn, built a thriving kingdom of proud but good-hearted citizens.


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** His brother Fulgrim, as shown in ''[[Literature/HorusHeresy Fulgrim: The Palatine Phoenix]]'' knew that using fear would never work as fear would lead to resentment and then open rebellion. Therefore he used his cunning mind and natural people skills to cultivate Chemos from a dying Mining World to a thriving, self-sufficient Civilized planet without shedding a drop of blood. In one scene, Fulgrim, a 9-10 foot tall man clad in armor actually helps a victim to his feet to show that Fulgrim is someone to be trusted.
31st Oct '17 4:29:52 PM thatmadork
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** Of course, {{averted|Trope}} entirely by Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish, who routinely demonstrates the virtues and rewards of cold-blooded social climbing, scheming, betrayal, carefully-timed assassination and exploiting others' crises to further his own position. [[spoiler:Until Season 7 when his devil's luck runs out, he's caught out with no friends or exits and he's executed by the Stark sisters.]]
30th Oct '17 4:33:30 PM darkemyst
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** Dumbledore's philosophy of love and trust clashes with a number of his actions that are very manipulative. His manipulations often cause more harm than good, which he acknowledges, for example at the end of ''[[Literature/HarryPotterAndTheOrderOfThePhoenix Order of the Phoenix]]'.

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** Dumbledore's philosophy of love and trust clashes with a number of his actions that are very manipulative. His manipulations often cause more harm than good, which he acknowledges, for example at the end of ''[[Literature/HarryPotterAndTheOrderOfThePhoenix Order of the Phoenix]]'.Phoenix]]''.
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