History Main / MachiavelliWasWrong

26th Aug '16 8:08:03 AM MaulMachine
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* In the ''StarWarsExpandedUniverse'', Grand Admiral Thrawn understands the distinction, but also adds to it the difference between fear and respect. He doesn't execute underlings for failings that are not their fault; he's lethally stern but not murderous, and he commands his men more through respect than either fear or love.

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* In the ''StarWarsExpandedUniverse'', Grand Admiral Thrawn understands the distinction, but also adds to it the difference between fear and respect. He doesn't execute underlings for failings that are not their fault; he's lethally stern but not murderous, and he commands his men more through respect than either fear or love. That said, he also is entirely willing to use terror tactics against the Nogrhi, and uses mind control on his own men without remorse.
14th Aug '16 4:38:37 PM AnimeSunglasses
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* The success of Cyrus the Great is attributed to the fact that (unlike most emperors) he wasn't a dick to the citizenry (the opposite in fact).

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* The success of Cyrus the Great is attributed to the fact that (unlike most emperors) emperors, ''especially'' the Assyrians whom he conquered) he wasn't a dick to the citizenry (the opposite in fact).
10th Aug '16 3:17:11 PM margdean56
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While we're on the subject, it's also worth noting that some scholars think ''The Prince'' was a [[PoesLaw satire]] of dictatorship since everything else he wrote directly contradicts ''The Prince'' - in other words, Machiavelli Was Joking. The misunderstandings are due to the early English translations, which were {{Blind Idiot Translation}}s that turned the line "look to the consequences before you act" into "the ends justify the means."

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While we're on the subject, it's also worth noting that some scholars think ''The Prince'' was a [[PoesLaw satire]] of dictatorship since everything else he wrote directly contradicts ''The Prince'' - -- in other words, Machiavelli Was Joking. The misunderstandings are due to the early English translations, which were {{Blind Idiot Translation}}s that turned the line "look to the consequences before you act" into "the ends justify the means."



* This is actually averted by ''ThePrince'' itself, especially if one subscribes to the school of thought that sees the work as a scathing satire against monarchical societies masquerading as a guide on how they should be ran.

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* This is actually averted by ''ThePrince'' itself, especially if one subscribes to the school of thought that sees the work as a scathing satire against monarchical societies masquerading as a guide on how they should be ran.run.



* PlayedWith in ''Literature/{{Dune}}'', the Harkonnens clearly ruled Arrakis through fear and Duke Leto capitalized on that by portraying himself as a far kinder ruler to gain the people's love and adoration. Not that it did him any good when his popularity aroused the other Houses' jealousy and the Harkonnens invaded and re-captured the planet. And the Baron's BatmanGambit to pacify the populace of Arrakis after recapturing it, letting his least favorite nephew Rabban rule Arrakis as cruel despot, so that his favorite Feyd would be more welcomed when he takes over that is, was straight out of ThePrince, and might have worked had Paul not provoked the Fremen into going on a Jihad.

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* PlayedWith in ''Literature/{{Dune}}'', ''Literature/{{Dune}}'': the Harkonnens clearly ruled Arrakis through fear and Duke Leto capitalized on that by portraying himself as a far kinder ruler to gain the people's love and adoration. Not that it did him any good when his popularity aroused the other Houses' jealousy and the Harkonnens invaded and re-captured the planet. And the Baron's BatmanGambit to pacify the populace of Arrakis after recapturing it, letting it--letting his least favorite nephew Rabban rule Arrakis as cruel despot, so that his favorite Feyd would be more welcomed when he takes over that is, was over--was straight out of ThePrince, and might have worked had Paul not provoked the Fremen into going on a Jihad.



* ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' has the Lannisters, who rule primarily by fear, and whom the smallfolk despise. On the other hand, they completely adore the Tyrells, with [[SpoiledSweet Margaery]] at the forefront, who spend time with them and hand out food donations on the like. Sansa also comes to this conclusion after spending time with paranoid queen mother Cersei.

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* ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' has the Lannisters, who rule primarily by fear, and whom the smallfolk despise. On the other hand, they completely adore the Tyrells, with [[SpoiledSweet Margaery]] at the forefront, who spend time with them and them, hand out food donations on and the like. Sansa also comes to this conclusion after spending time with paranoid queen mother Cersei.



** Then there are the various Northern Houses, who love their liege lords the Starks. They loved the Stark family so such that they, lord and commoner alike are prepared to march through blizzards, bone chilling cold in a state of near starvation or keep on fighting even when all hope is faded, for the sake of the Starks. Even after being [[spoiler:usurped by the Boltons, the North would not bend the knee to them, and House Manderly[[labelnote:*]]Which actually was originally an Andal noble house that was adopted by the Starks into the North after being usurped from their homelands further south[[/labelnote]] are conspiring against the Bolton's to bring the Starks back as liege lords]].
* In ''Literature/WingsOfFire'', adult dragons around the main characters are always telling them that dragons have no empathy, especially for other tribes. The dragonets themselves don't follow this, and it leads to them being able to escape from their guardian Kestrel by working together, something she never accounted for. This is also shown in terms of the queens - [[BadBoss Burn]] loses support in the civil war quickly despite being the presumed rightful heir with the largest initial base of support, while [[NiceGuy Blaze]] and [[TheHighQueen Glacier's]] side have no trouble gaining loyal supporters despite their [[LethallyStupid respective]] [[ManipulativeBastard flaws]].


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** Then there are the various Northern Houses, who love their liege lords the Starks. They loved the Stark family so such that they, lord and commoner alike alike, are prepared to march through blizzards, bone chilling blizzards or bone-chilling cold in a state of near starvation starvation, or keep on fighting even when all hope is faded, for the sake of the Starks. Even after being [[spoiler:usurped by the Boltons, the North would not bend the knee to them, and House Manderly[[labelnote:*]]Which actually was originally an Andal noble house that was adopted by the Starks into the North after being usurped from their homelands further south[[/labelnote]] are conspiring against the Bolton's Boltons to bring the Starks back as liege lords]].
* In ''Literature/WingsOfFire'', adult dragons around the main characters are always telling them that dragons have no empathy, especially for other tribes. The dragonets themselves don't follow this, and it leads to them being able to escape from their guardian Kestrel by working together, something she never accounted for. This is also shown in terms of the queens - -- [[BadBoss Burn]] loses support in the civil war quickly despite being the presumed rightful heir with the largest initial base of support, while [[NiceGuy Blaze]] and [[TheHighQueen Glacier's]] side have no trouble gaining loyal supporters despite their [[LethallyStupid respective]] [[ManipulativeBastard flaws]].

17th Jun '16 10:44:04 PM Monsund
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* In ‘’WesternAnimation/TheTransformersTheMovie’’: The Autobots show concern, and reverence for [[AFatherToHisMen Optimus Prime]] even in his dying moments when he’s a liability to them. This is contrasted with [[BadBoss Megatron]] who when wounded, has to [[AintTooProudToBeg beg]] [[TheDragon his second in command]] Soundwave just not to leave him behind. When his Decepticon minions realize they could [[ColdEquation jettison the wounded]] on the Livingpaceship to make it go faster, Megatron is ThrownOutTheAirlock despite his pleas, no one lifting a finger to help him.

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* In ‘’WesternAnimation/TheTransformersTheMovie’’: The Autobots show concern, and reverence for [[AFatherToHisMen Optimus Prime]] even in his dying moments when he’s a liability to them. This is contrasted with [[BadBoss Megatron]] who when wounded, has to [[AintTooProudToBeg beg]] [[TheDragon his second in command]] Soundwave just not to leave him behind. When his Decepticon minions realize they could [[ColdEquation jettison the wounded]] on the Livingpaceship [[AutomatedAutomobiles AstroTrain]] to make it go faster, Megatron is ThrownOutTheAirlock despite his pleas, no one lifting a finger to help him.
17th Jun '16 10:41:31 PM Monsund
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Added DiffLines:

* In ‘’WesternAnimation/TheTransformersTheMovie’’: The Autobots show concern, and reverence for [[AFatherToHisMen Optimus Prime]] even in his dying moments when he’s a liability to them. This is contrasted with [[BadBoss Megatron]] who when wounded, has to [[AintTooProudToBeg beg]] [[TheDragon his second in command]] Soundwave just not to leave him behind. When his Decepticon minions realize they could [[ColdEquation jettison the wounded]] on the Livingpaceship to make it go faster, Megatron is ThrownOutTheAirlock despite his pleas, no one lifting a finger to help him.
10th Jun '16 7:11:58 PM Doug86
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* During WorldWarI the Italian commander-in-chief Luigi Cadorna ruled his troops with harsh discipline, unnecessary punishments, and the threat of being gunned down from the barrier troops if they didn't attack, the only exception being the ''Carabinieri'' (military police, who were acting as said barrier troops) and the Third Army (led by the Duke of Aosta, a relative of the king, second in the line of succession and AFatherToHisMen). When the Austro-Hungarians broke through at the Battle of Caporetto, the soldiers of the Second Army shot their officers, routed the ''Carabinieri'' and started retreating, discussing whether to start the revolution then and there or just return home and transforming the defeat in a CurbStompBattle, with the Third Army forced to retreat before being surrounded. To better drive home the point, when Cadorna was replaced with Armando Diaz (a pupil of the Duke of Aosta, and AFatherToHisMen like him), the soldiers (who during the retreat had also seen Italian civilians running from the invaders) stopped retreating and ''stopped the invasion cold'', while the First Army, that included forces raised from local populations and was supported by enough artillery to realize Cadorna was a WellIntentionedExtremist (and was less tormented by the ''Carabinieri'' for that), resisted.

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* During WorldWarI UsefulNotes/WorldWarI the Italian commander-in-chief Luigi Cadorna ruled his troops with harsh discipline, unnecessary punishments, and the threat of being gunned down from the barrier troops if they didn't attack, the only exception being the ''Carabinieri'' (military police, who were acting as said barrier troops) and the Third Army (led by the Duke of Aosta, a relative of the king, second in the line of succession and AFatherToHisMen). When the Austro-Hungarians broke through at the Battle of Caporetto, the soldiers of the Second Army shot their officers, routed the ''Carabinieri'' and started retreating, discussing whether to start the revolution then and there or just return home and transforming the defeat in a CurbStompBattle, with the Third Army forced to retreat before being surrounded. To better drive home the point, when Cadorna was replaced with Armando Diaz (a pupil of the Duke of Aosta, and AFatherToHisMen like him), the soldiers (who during the retreat had also seen Italian civilians running from the invaders) stopped retreating and ''stopped the invasion cold'', while the First Army, that included forces raised from local populations and was supported by enough artillery to realize Cadorna was a WellIntentionedExtremist (and was less tormented by the ''Carabinieri'' for that), resisted.
9th Jun '16 9:20:50 AM Morgenthaler
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* Avoided with the books written by the titular NiccoloMachiavelli - unlike characters this trope is about, Machiavelli thought that the most important thing is to avoid hatred, and that the most effective way to remain in power is to use both fear and love - like most great rulers did. ''The Prince'' was mostly about means to avoid assassination, [[RevolvingDoorRevolution all too common]] in Italian city-states of the time, assuming it was ever meant to be good advice rather than political satire.

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* Avoided with the books written by the titular NiccoloMachiavelli Creator/NiccoloMachiavelli - unlike characters this trope is about, Machiavelli thought that the most important thing is to avoid hatred, and that the most effective way to remain in power is to use both fear and love - like most great rulers did. ''The Prince'' ''Literature/ThePrince'' was mostly about means to avoid assassination, [[RevolvingDoorRevolution all too common]] in Italian city-states of the time, assuming it was ever meant to be good advice rather than political satire.
5th Jun '16 5:28:59 PM siberia82
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Added DiffLines:

* The core message of ''Film/XMenApocalypse'' is that ruling through love (as represented by Professor X) is more effective than ruling through fear (as personified by Apocalypse) because the former inspires loyalty while the latter encourages betrayal. [[spoiler:The X-Men win the FinalBattle because they're united, unlike Apocalypse, who has no one on his side in the end.]] This even forms the basis of [[spoiler:Charles' BadassBoast when Apocalypse is about to "crush" his mind]].
-->[[spoiler:'''Xavier''']]: You will never win.\\
[[spoiler:'''Apocalypse''']]: And why is that?\\
[[spoiler:'''Xavier''']]: Because you're alone, and I am NOT!
4th Jun '16 4:02:40 AM Vir
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* In ''Anime/{{Pokemon}}'', evil trainers generally treat their Pokemon cruelly, while good trainers treat them well.
** The most extreme example was the Iron Masked Marauder. He was so abusive to his Pokemon, they left him ''on their own'', something that is usually unheard of.
** Jessie and James are the exception; while they play the role of antagonists ([[IneffectualSympatheticVillain sort of]]), they get emotionally attached to their Pokemon.

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* In ''Anime/{{Pokemon}}'', evil trainers generally treat their Pokemon Pokémon cruelly, while good trainers treat them well.
** The most extreme example was the Iron Masked Marauder. He was so abusive to his Pokemon, Pokémon, they left him ''on their own'', something that is usually unheard of.
** Jessie and James are the exception; while they play the role of antagonists ([[IneffectualSympatheticVillain sort of]]), they get emotionally attached to their Pokemon.Pokémon.



* In the ''VideoGame/{{Pokemon}}'' games, the cheapest medicinal items, labeled as Bitter, hurt your Pokemon's Happiness points. So much for getting that Espeon (which evolves via level-up during the day only when it is extremely devoted to you), but if you love your Pokémon, you'll pay a bit more money to buy the medicine that ''doesn't'' taste bad. (Except for the Max Revive, which ''can't'' be bought save for the Bitter variety. [[FridgeBrilliance Tough call?]])

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* In the ''VideoGame/{{Pokemon}}'' games, the cheapest medicinal items, labeled as Bitter, hurt your Pokemon's Pokémon's Happiness points. So much for getting that Espeon (which evolves via level-up during the day only when it is extremely devoted to you), but if you love your Pokémon, you'll pay a bit more money to buy the medicine that ''doesn't'' taste bad. (Except for the Max Revive, which ''can't'' be bought save for the Bitter variety. [[FridgeBrilliance Tough call?]])



* In the Transformers Prime prequel ''VideoGame/TransformersWarForCybertron'', Sentinel Prime, Optimus Prime's direct predecessor, is a cold, harsh leader who dismisses Megatron's revolt as insignificant and thinks nothing of throwing troops at the Decepticons despite heavy losses. As a result, Autobot forces will break and run fairly often. In the sequel ''VideoGame/TransformersFallOfCybertron'', Optimus Prime's AFatherToHisMen tendencies inspire them to fight to the death for him, some troops even wanting desperately to go back into the fight despite grievous wounds.

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* In the Transformers Prime ''WesternAnimation/TransformersPrime'' prequel ''VideoGame/TransformersWarForCybertron'', Sentinel Prime, Optimus Prime's direct predecessor, is a cold, harsh leader who dismisses Megatron's revolt as insignificant and thinks nothing of throwing troops at the Decepticons despite heavy losses. As a result, Autobot forces will break and run fairly often. In the sequel ''VideoGame/TransformersFallOfCybertron'', Optimus Prime's AFatherToHisMen tendencies inspire them to fight to the death for him, some troops even wanting desperately to go back into the fight despite grievous wounds.



* ''WesternAnimation/TransformersPrime''plays with this; Megatron's violent insanity and [[YouHaveFailedMe callous disregard for the lives of his own men]] means he maintains command of the Decepticons almost entirely through fear and [[UndyingLoyalty Soundwave]]. However, the problems in this are rife, as ''the'' Starscream is only the most prominent TheStarscream in his crew; if Soundwave wasn't around or didn't intervene on Megatron's behalf, the rest of the Decepticons would turn on Megatron in an instant if he were ever incapacitated.

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* ''WesternAnimation/TransformersPrime''plays ''WesternAnimation/TransformersPrime'' plays with this; Megatron's violent insanity and [[YouHaveFailedMe callous disregard for the lives of his own men]] means he maintains command of the Decepticons almost entirely through fear and [[UndyingLoyalty Soundwave]]. However, the problems in this are rife, as ''the'' Starscream is only the most prominent TheStarscream in his crew; if Soundwave wasn't around or didn't intervene on Megatron's behalf, the rest of the Decepticons would turn on Megatron in an instant if he were ever incapacitated.
18th May '16 11:05:04 AM MadCat221
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*** Sobel is doubly an example of this trope. Not only is he unnecessarily harsh with his recruits, he's a terrible commander to boot. In his first field training exercise he gets his men lost in a field because he can't read a damn map. So he can't even claim that his jerkass behavior is justified by extreme competence.

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*** Sobel is doubly an example of this trope. Not only is he unnecessarily harsh with his recruits, he's a terrible commander to boot. In his first field training exercise he gets his men lost in a field because he can't read a damn map. So he [[TheNeidermeyer can't even claim claim]] that his jerkass behavior is justified by [[SergeantRock extreme competence.competence]].
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