History Main / HobbesWasRight

26th Aug '16 10:05:26 AM Discar
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* In ''Anime/CodeGeass'', Schneizel tries to do this, [[spoiler:but loses to Lelouch, who then seemingly does the same thing. Emperor Lelouch uses reprehensible tactics to take over the entire world, uniting every country under his iron fist and finally bringing peace to his war-torn planet. In a subversion, Lelouch cultivated a ZeroPercentApprovalRating '''''on purpose''''' and then staged [[ThanatosGambit his own public assassination]], hoping that his stint as an evil overlord would cause the various nations to abandon power-hungry monarchies and dictatorships in favor of diplomatic democracies.]]
** In a minor example, the democratic nations in Anime/CodeGeass found themselves quickly conquered by Britannia due to the inability to muster up a strong motivated army like Britannia nor military progress.
*** On the other hand, the Chinese Federation is an Empire as well [[spoiler:and falls to a populist uprising led by the Black Knights.]] The EU does pretty good as well, not dissolving until near the end due to precisely what was mentioned above; internal conflicts over raising an army.

to:

* In ''Anime/CodeGeass'', ''Anime/CodeGeass'':
**
Schneizel tries to do this, [[spoiler:but loses to Lelouch, who then seemingly does the same thing. Emperor Lelouch uses reprehensible tactics to take over the entire world, uniting every country under his iron fist and finally bringing peace to his war-torn planet. In a subversion, Lelouch cultivated a ZeroPercentApprovalRating '''''on purpose''''' and then staged [[ThanatosGambit his own public assassination]], hoping that his stint as an evil overlord would cause the various nations to abandon power-hungry monarchies and dictatorships in favor of diplomatic democracies.]]
** In a minor example, the democratic nations in Anime/CodeGeass found themselves quickly conquered by Britannia due to the inability to muster up a strong motivated army like Britannia nor military progress.
***
progress. On the other hand, the Chinese Federation is an Empire as well [[spoiler:and falls to a populist uprising led by the Black Knights.]] The EU does pretty good as well, not dissolving until near the end due to precisely what was mentioned above; internal conflicts over raising an army.



* In ''Anime/MobileSuitGundamSEEDDestiny'', in the end. Only a benevolent dictatorship ruled by genetic elite can hope to keep the already dying world alive after two genocidal wars by brutish natural born humans.
** Actually there were also genocidal genetic elites on the other side as well. It's only the sanest of them who is the last one standing.

to:

* In ''Anime/MobileSuitGundamSEEDDestiny'', in the end. Only a benevolent dictatorship ruled by genetic elite can hope to keep the already dying world alive after two genocidal wars by brutish natural born humans.
** Actually there were also genocidal genetic elites on the other side as well. It's only the sanest of them who is the last one standing.
wars.



* Not done for laughs, but something similar happens in ''ComicBook/KingdomCome'', where Orion has overthrown Darkseid as ruler of Apokolips and offers the people liberty. They immediately turn around and elect him leader, much to his chagrin, and his efforts to educate them to the value of independence and liberty go nowhere. In the {{novelization}}, not even Jimmy Carter, Desmond Tutu, and Mikhail Gorbechev could help the "lowlies" hold free elections. Orion allows Scott Free and Big Barda to insult him openly while they teach the "lowlies" art and culture, however, to attempt to stir independent spirit. It hardly works.
** Realistic, too. The thing that political activists and utopians of all flavors often overlook is that ''culture matters''. The exact same political or economic system, applied to two different social/religious substrates, will tend to produce totally different results... and it's far, ''far'' easier to change a political system or an economic system than to induce any intentional change in an extant culture.

to:

* Not done for laughs, but something similar happens in ''ComicBook/KingdomCome'', where Orion has overthrown Darkseid as ruler of Apokolips and offers the people liberty. They immediately turn around and elect him leader, much to his chagrin, and his efforts to educate them to the value of independence and liberty go nowhere. In the {{novelization}}, not even Jimmy Carter, Desmond Tutu, and Mikhail Gorbechev could help the "lowlies" hold free elections. Orion allows Scott Free and Big Barda to insult him openly while they teach the "lowlies" art and culture, however, to attempt to stir independent spirit. It hardly works.
**
works. Realistic, too. The thing that political activists and utopians of all flavors often overlook is that ''culture matters''. The exact same political or economic system, applied to two different social/religious substrates, will tend to produce totally different results... and it's far, ''far'' easier to change a political system or an economic system than to induce any intentional change in an extant culture.



* The ''Literature/{{Discworld}}'' series by Creator/TerryPratchett has a strand of Hobbes Was Right: The Lord Vetinari is a long-running benign tyrant character, who at one point is shown to be drawing a picture of a crowned man made of thousands of smaller men--a reference to the cover illustration of Hobbes' "Leviathan." It's suggested in several places that no other form of rule would work in Ankh-Morpork. Succession in Ankh-Morpork means that when the old ruler dies, whoever had the second greatest amount of political influence in the city becomes the new one, provided that the guilds approve; Vetinari's system relies on making sure that nobody powerful would benefit more from his death than they would lose in the ensuing power vaccuum. On the other hand, Vetinari is the ''first'' benevolent tyrant Ankh-Morpork has had; the previous ones ranged from venal opportunists to raving madmen.
-->''Ankh-Morpork is a democracy - they believe in One Man, One Vote. Vetinari is the Man and he gets the Vote.''

to:

* ''Literature/{{Discworld}}'':
**
The ''Literature/{{Discworld}}'' series by Creator/TerryPratchett has a strand of Hobbes Was Right: The Lord Vetinari is a long-running benign tyrant character, who at one point is shown to be drawing a picture of a crowned man made of thousands of smaller men--a reference to the cover illustration of Hobbes' "Leviathan." It's suggested in several places that no other form of rule would work in Ankh-Morpork. Succession in Ankh-Morpork means that when the old ruler dies, whoever had the second greatest amount of political influence in the city becomes the new one, provided that the guilds approve; Vetinari's system relies on making sure that nobody powerful would benefit more from his death than they would lose in the ensuing power vaccuum. On the other hand, Vetinari is the ''first'' benevolent tyrant Ankh-Morpork has had; the previous ones ranged from venal opportunists to raving madmen. \n-->''Ankh-Morpork "Ankh-Morpork is a democracy - they believe in One Man, One Vote. Vetinari is the Man and he gets the Vote.''"



** XXXX does have 'elected' politicians and [=PMs=]… who are put in jail as soon as they're elected, to save time.

to:

** XXXX does have 'elected' politicians and [=PMs=]… [=PMs=]... who are put in jail as soon as they're elected, to save time.



** The government of Secundus is probably the most fantastical bit of political nonsense RAH ever posited, and he posited some doozies. I doubt if even he really took it seriously. Which was somewhat lampshaded by Lazarus himself when he said that he hadn't expected it to last more than a couple centuries, instead of nearly two thousand years (a near-immortal population may have helped).
* Running theme in Brandon Sanderson's ''Well of Ascension'' ({{Mistborn}} Book 2). After the assassination of the nigh-godlike Lord Ruler, Elend steps in as the new king of Luthadel and promptly begins trying out these republican ideas from his favorite philosophy books. Unfortunately, his father (and a few other factions, all tyrannic slavedrivers) are preparing to besiege the city, and the parliament he established would like nothing more than to surrender to one of them and get back to life as usual.
** Though this is depicted less as a function of human nature in general and more that the only sort of government most people in this world are familiar with is the Lord Ruler's totalitarian theocracy. Hard to have a democracy when the average person on the street doesn't know or care what voting ''is''…

to:

** The government of Secundus is probably the most fantastical bit of political nonsense RAH ever posited, and he posited some doozies. I doubt if even he really took it seriously. Which was somewhat lampshaded by Lazarus himself when he said that he hadn't expected it to last more than a couple centuries, instead of nearly two thousand years (a near-immortal population may have helped).
* Running Creator/BrandonSanderson:
** ''Literature/MistbornTheOriginalTrilogy'':
*** A running
theme in Brandon Sanderson's the second book, ''Well of Ascension'' ({{Mistborn}} Book 2).Ascension''. After the assassination of the nigh-godlike Lord Ruler, Elend steps in as the new king of Luthadel and promptly begins trying out these republican ideas from his favorite philosophy books. Unfortunately, his father (and a few other factions, all tyrannic slavedrivers) are preparing to besiege the city, and the parliament he established would like nothing more than to surrender to one of them and get back to life as usual.
** *** Though this is depicted less as a function of human nature in general and more that the only sort of government most people in this world are familiar with is the Lord Ruler's totalitarian theocracy. Hard to have a democracy when the average person on the street doesn't know or care what voting ''is''…''is''...



*** In ''Literature/TheAlloyOfLaw'', set in the same world several centuries down the line, the human civilization ''has'' developed into a functioning democracy with no monarch or dictator in sight. The world just seemed to need to get used to the idea as more than a theoretical absurdity.

to:

*** ** In ''Literature/TheAlloyOfLaw'', set in the same world several centuries down the line, the human civilization ''has'' developed into a functioning democracy with no monarch or dictator in sight. The world just seemed to need to get used to the idea as more than a theoretical absurdity. Even when the bad guys start corrupting the government with spies and astro-turfed "popular revolts," no one suggests democracy itself is the problem. An immortal who has been around since the original trilogy points out that the real source of the problem is that the original founders were all cityfolk, and had no idea how to handle rural villages and people. This resulted in a lot of resentment towards the capital city and its government, which the bad guys took advantage of.



* Creator/JonathanSwift is cynical about most human attributes and pursuits throughout ''Literature/GulliversTravels'', but the end of the book devolves into a tirade against humanity in general. Swift depicts the ideal species as Houyhnhnm, a species of [[MarySue super-intelligent pacifist horses]]. These noble, rational equines starkly contrast the 'Yahoos,' brutal, savage animals that look exactly like humans. George Orwell argued that the supposedly Utopian society of the Houyhnhnm is ridiculous, and that Swift's "aim, as usual, is to humiliate Man by reminding him that he is weak and ridiculous, and above all that he stinks."

to:

* ''Literature/GulliversTravels'':
**
Creator/JonathanSwift is cynical about most human attributes and pursuits throughout ''Literature/GulliversTravels'', the book, but the end of the book devolves into a tirade against humanity in general. Swift depicts the ideal species as Houyhnhnm, a species of [[MarySue super-intelligent pacifist horses]]. These noble, rational equines starkly contrast the 'Yahoos,' brutal, savage animals that look exactly like humans. George Orwell argued that the supposedly Utopian society of the Houyhnhnm is ridiculous, and that Swift's "aim, as usual, is to humiliate Man by reminding him that he is weak and ridiculous, and above all that he stinks."



*** The depiction of the Houynhnms has often been taken as a TakeThat against Enlightenment ideals (at least when taken too far).

to:

*** ** The depiction of the Houynhnms has often been taken as a TakeThat against Enlightenment ideals (at least when taken too far).



* While it should not be taken as an accurate reflection of the political views of GRRM, ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' is an apt illustration of the inherent fallibility and inevitable failure of Man without a strong, central authority--that is, Hobbesian philosophy. When King Robert I Baratheon dies without a legitimate heir, the Seven Kingdoms collapse into chaos and five men step forward, each proclaiming themselves the rightful king. None of them succeed in putting things to right, and all but one of them is now dead.

to:

* ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'':
**
While it should not be taken as an accurate reflection of the political views of GRRM, ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' the series is an apt illustration of the inherent fallibility and inevitable failure of Man without a strong, central authority--that is, Hobbesian philosophy. When King Robert I Baratheon dies without a legitimate heir, the Seven Kingdoms collapse into chaos and five men step forward, each proclaiming themselves the rightful king. None of them succeed in putting things to right, and all but one of them is now dead.



* ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'': Without the autocratic Imperium, its bureaucracy will not be able to prevent the fall of humanity as we know it.
** Somewhat justified, in that it's a state of [[EverythingTryingToKillYou continuous emergency martial law]]. Without the constant threat, the Imperium would probably be torn apart by rebellion, or collapse under the weight of [[ObstructiveBureaucrat its own rotten bureaucracy]].
*** It already spends as much time and energy on [[DividedWeFall infighting]] as it does on genuine defense. The largely-autonomous Space Marines and Inquisition are the only reason it can effectively defend itself until the real military gets in gear for each threat.
** The question of whether the Imperium in its current state is helping or hindering the human race is a vexed one among those of its citizens given to pondering such matters. This theme is explored in the Inquisitor game, where two of the rival factions in the Imperial Inquisition--the Amalathians and the Recongregators--hold opposing views. The Amalathians hold to this trope, believing that it is only the absolute authority of the vast, Byzantine Imperium as it is today that can keep Humanity safe. The Recongregators, on the other hand, believe that the Imperium in its current authoritarian state is a massive and dangerous hindrance, which needs radical reform to make it fit for purpose.

to:

* ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'': Without the autocratic Imperium, its bureaucracy will not be able to prevent the fall of humanity as we know it.
**
it. Somewhat justified, in that it's a state of [[EverythingTryingToKillYou continuous emergency martial law]]. Without the constant threat, the Imperium would probably be torn apart by rebellion, or collapse under the weight of [[ObstructiveBureaucrat its own rotten bureaucracy]].
***
bureaucracy]]. It already spends as much time and energy on [[DividedWeFall infighting]] as it does on genuine defense. The largely-autonomous Space Marines and Inquisition are the only reason it can effectively defend itself until the real military gets in gear for each threat.
**
threat. The question of whether the Imperium in its current state is helping or hindering the human race is a vexed one among those of its citizens given to pondering such matters. This theme is explored in the Inquisitor game, where two of the rival factions in the Imperial Inquisition--the Amalathians and the Recongregators--hold opposing views. The Amalathians hold to this trope, believing that it is only the absolute authority of the vast, Byzantine Imperium as it is today that can keep Humanity safe. The Recongregators, on the other hand, believe that the Imperium in its current authoritarian state is a massive and dangerous hindrance, which needs radical reform to make it fit for purpose.



* In ''Webcomic/GirlGenius'', the iron-fisted dictator Baron Wulfenbach is widely accepted as being the only thing standing between Europa and a new age of anarchy.

to:

* In ''Webcomic/GirlGenius'', the ''Webcomic/GirlGenius'':
** The
iron-fisted dictator Baron Wulfenbach is widely accepted as being the only thing standing between Europa and a new age of anarchy.



* The [[TropeNamers trope namer]] is Thomas Hobbes, who said that all humans are naturally entitled to everything, and that when two humans try to assert their right to the same thing, conflicts ensue. The result is a "state of nature" in which every individual becomes a judge of what is right based on their own beliefs. The only solution that will allow humans to co-exist peacefully is for humans to agree to relinquish nearly all of those natural rights, on the condition that everyone else do so as well. In order to ensure that everyone plays nice, a Sovereign, which can be either an individual or an assembly, has to be given enough power to browbeat people back into line. As soon as people agree to follow the rules laid down in this "social contract", they are free to assert their right to whatever they can, within that framework. Not everyone has to agree, but as soon as a majority signs up, the rest will follow, either by application of carrot or by application of stick. And considering the alternative is a life that is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short", most people will agree. It is worthwhile to note that Hobbes never stated that a ruler must be autocratic, positing that an assembly could do the job as well. He also never stated that the Sovereign could not be democratically elected. On the other hand, he ''did'' insist that the Sovereign--be it an assembly or a single person--have absolute power.
** He got his wish shortly after his death: after the "Glorious Revolution" in 1688, the British monarchy became thoroughly subordinated to the Parliament--a figurehead, with minute and highly contingent power (that would be gone within a century), subject to the authority of Parliament. As for Parliament, under the doctrine of Parliamentary supremacy, it could do whatever it liked, subject only to political restraints. It's worked marvellously for Britain.

to:

* The [[TropeNamers trope namer]] is Thomas Hobbes, who said that all humans are naturally entitled to everything, and that when two humans try to assert their right to the same thing, conflicts ensue. The result is a "state of nature" in which every individual becomes a judge of what is right based on their own beliefs. The only solution that will allow humans to co-exist peacefully is for humans to agree to relinquish nearly all of those natural rights, on the condition that everyone else do so as well. In order to ensure that everyone plays nice, a Sovereign, which can be either an individual or an assembly, has to be given enough power to browbeat people back into line. As soon as people agree to follow the rules laid down in this "social contract", they are free to assert their right to whatever they can, within that framework. Not everyone has to agree, but as soon as a majority signs up, the rest will follow, either by application of carrot or by application of stick. And considering the alternative is a life that is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short", most people will agree. It is worthwhile to note that Hobbes never stated that a ruler must be autocratic, positing that an assembly could do the job as well. He also never stated that the Sovereign could not be democratically elected. On the other hand, he ''did'' insist that the Sovereign--be it an assembly or a single person--have absolute power.
**
power. He got his wish shortly after his death: after the "Glorious Revolution" in 1688, the British monarchy became thoroughly subordinated to the Parliament--a figurehead, with minute and highly contingent power (that would be gone within a century), subject to the authority of Parliament. As for Parliament, under the doctrine of Parliamentary supremacy, it could do whatever it liked, subject only to political restraints. It's worked marvellously for Britain.



* The United States government is based more on the ideas of John Locke than Thomas Hobbes (which were LighterAndSofter versions of things Hobbes said for the most part), but it gives lip service to the idea that HumansAreBastards by way of a "checks and balances" system in which the government's powers are divided amongst branches with different aims, scope, and oversight, essentially forcing them all to work together if they want to get anything done. In theory it's not ''impossible'' for the President of the United States to assume autocratic power, but in practice it would require far, far too many people to be on board with the idea to ever be practical.
** Ultimately, subverted: Many founders were skeptical that, if people are truly cynical and devoid of virtue, the entire republican enterprise was doomed to fail. The best summation of this concession is found in [[http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch13s36.html James Madison's speech before the Virginia Ratifying Convention]], where he said, "Is there no virtue among us? If there be not, we are in a wretched situation. No theoretical checks--no form of government can render us secure. To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea."
* Over 2,000 years before Hobbes, ''Literature/TheBookOfLordShang'' advised rulers to be cruel and ruthless to keep people in line. The one dynasty that ''tried'' to rule by these principles lasted only 15 years.
** But also played straight: [[UsefulNotes/QinShiHuangdi that dynasty]], though brief in itself, set the pattern for every government of China for more than two thousand years thereafter.

to:

* The United States government is based more on the ideas of John Locke than Thomas Hobbes (which were LighterAndSofter versions of things Hobbes said for the most part), but it gives lip service to the idea that HumansAreBastards by way of a "checks and balances" system in which the government's powers are divided amongst branches with different aims, scope, and oversight, essentially forcing them all to work together if they want to get anything done. In theory it's not ''impossible'' for the President of the United States to assume autocratic power, but in practice it would require far, far too many people to be on board with the idea to ever be practical.
**
practical. Ultimately, subverted: Many founders were skeptical that, if people are truly cynical and devoid of virtue, the entire republican enterprise was doomed to fail. The best summation of this concession is found in [[http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch13s36.html James Madison's speech before the Virginia Ratifying Convention]], where he said, "Is there no virtue among us? If there be not, we are in a wretched situation. No theoretical checks--no form of government can render us secure. To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea."
* Over 2,000 years before Hobbes, ''Literature/TheBookOfLordShang'' advised rulers to be cruel and ruthless to keep people in line. The one dynasty that ''tried'' to rule by these principles lasted only 15 years.
**
years. But also played straight: [[UsefulNotes/QinShiHuangdi that dynasty]], though brief in itself, set the pattern for every government of China for more than two thousand years thereafter.
21st Aug '16 6:16:51 AM Doug86
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** But also played straight: [[QinShiHuangdi that dynasty]], though brief in itself, set the pattern for every government of China for more than two thousand years thereafter.

to:

** But also played straight: [[QinShiHuangdi [[UsefulNotes/QinShiHuangdi that dynasty]], though brief in itself, set the pattern for every government of China for more than two thousand years thereafter.
6th Aug '16 9:15:58 AM MCanter89
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Named after Thomas Hobbes, who wrote in the 17th-century book ''Leviathan'' that strong, centralized government is necessary to protect mankind from its own base nature and self-serving desires. The trope is based on a [[{{Flanderization}} Flanderized]] version of his philosophy. Whether this is sometimes TruthInTelevision is [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment probably best left alone]], though it is worth noting that many medieval kings (as an isolated example) had to be strong and bastardly to be effective. Naturally, this opinion goes hand in hand with the belief that HumansAreBastards, possibly HumansAreMorons if the arguments are about the reliability of human judgment if power is left in the hands of the many (though when one considers who the only available candidates for rulership are--[[DontExplainTheJoke namely, members of that same species of bastard morons]]...). Indeed, Rousseau -- the chief defender of the contrary position -- had some choice words for Hobbes (although Hobbes, being dead, couldn't appreciate the insults).

to:

Named after Thomas Hobbes, who wrote in the 17th-century book ''Leviathan'' that strong, centralized government is necessary to protect mankind from its own base nature and self-serving desires. The trope is based on a [[{{Flanderization}} Flanderized]] version of his philosophy. Whether this is sometimes TruthInTelevision is [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment probably best left alone]], though it is worth noting that many medieval kings (as an isolated example) had to be strong and bastardly to be effective. Naturally, this opinion goes hand in hand with the belief that HumansAreBastards, possibly HumansAreMorons if the arguments are about the reliability of human judgment if power is left in the hands of the many (though when one considers who the only available candidates for rulership are--[[DontExplainTheJoke namely, members of that same species of bastard morons]]...). morons]]…). Indeed, Rousseau -- the Rousseau--the chief defender of the contrary position -- had position--had some choice words for Hobbes (although Hobbes, being dead, couldn't appreciate the insults).



*** On the other hand, the Chinese Federation is an Empire as well [[spoiler: and falls to a populist uprising led by the Black Knights.]] The EU does pretty good as well, not dissolving until near the end due to precisely what was mentioned above; internal conflicts over raising an army.
* Played with before being subverted in ''Manga/DeathNote'', where Light's desire to become [[AGodAmI a justice-dealing god]] in an attempt to end crime results in his using [[UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans increasingly harsh measures]], [[JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope killing innocents]], and eventually ruling over a dictatorship based on fear, suspicion, mistrust, and the Internet. [[spoiler:After Light's death, mankind returns to normal, in both the good and bad senses]].

to:

*** On the other hand, the Chinese Federation is an Empire as well [[spoiler: and [[spoiler:and falls to a populist uprising led by the Black Knights.]] The EU does pretty good as well, not dissolving until near the end due to precisely what was mentioned above; internal conflicts over raising an army.
* Played with before being subverted in ''Manga/DeathNote'', where Light's desire to become [[AGodAmI a justice-dealing god]] in an attempt to end crime results in his using [[UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans increasingly harsh measures]], [[JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope killing innocents]], and eventually ruling over a dictatorship based on fear, suspicion, mistrust, and the Internet. [[spoiler:After Light's death, mankind returns to normal, in both the good and bad senses]].senses.]]



* In ''Anime/{{Monster}}'', this is how the series' BigBad, Johan Liebert, views the world. He at one point even said that humanity would obliterate itself through hatred and he sought to be the last man standing. The protagonist of the series, Kenzo Tenma, holds the view that RousseauWasRight, and the series is essentially about them trying to prove to the other that their view is correct [[spoiler:[[StrikeMeDownWithAllOfYourHatred (with Johan trying to prove it by getting Tenma to kill him).]]]]

to:

* In ''Anime/{{Monster}}'', this is how the series' BigBad, Johan Liebert, views the world. He at one point even said that humanity would obliterate itself through hatred and he sought to be the last man standing. The protagonist of the series, Kenzo Tenma, holds the view that RousseauWasRight, and the series is essentially about them trying to prove to the other that their view is correct [[spoiler:[[StrikeMeDownWithAllOfYourHatred (with [[spoiler:([[StrikeMeDownWithAllOfYourHatred with Johan trying to prove it by getting Tenma to kill him).]]]]him]]).]]



** Actually there were also genocidal genetic elites on the other side as well. Its only the sanest of them who is the last one standing.

to:

** Actually there were also genocidal genetic elites on the other side as well. Its It's only the sanest of them who is the last one standing.



* In a ''NewspaperComic/BloomCounty'' strip [[http://www.yesbutnobutyes.com/assets_c/2010/05/humanity_bl-11775.html seen here,]] Binkley is pondering his faith in humanity (as he tends to do a lot), not knowing that Portnoy is about to play a rather nasty prank on him for no real reason, which could possibly prove Hobbes right; however, when Binkley askes the question, "Do you think, deep in our hearts, we're basically ''evil''?" Portnoy stops, thinks about it, and changes his mind. "Nah..." he replies.

to:

* In a ''NewspaperComic/BloomCounty'' strip [[http://www.yesbutnobutyes.com/assets_c/2010/05/humanity_bl-11775.html seen here,]] Binkley is pondering his faith in humanity (as he tends to do a lot), not knowing that Portnoy is about to play a rather nasty prank on him for no real reason, which could possibly prove Hobbes right; however, when Binkley askes the question, "Do you think, deep in our hearts, we're basically ''evil''?" Portnoy stops, thinks about it, and changes his mind. "Nah..." "Nah…" he replies. replies.



[[folder: Fanfic]]

to:

[[folder: Fanfic]][[folder:Fanfic]]



* Loki espouses this view during a speech in "Film/{{The Avengers|2012}}".

to:

* Loki espouses this view during a speech in "Film/{{The Avengers|2012}}".''Film/{{The Avengers|2012}}''.



* The ''Literature/{{Discworld}}'' series by Terry Pratchett has a strand of Hobbes Was Right: The Lord Vetinari is a long-running benign tyrant character, who at one point is shown to be drawing a picture of a crowned man made of thousands of smaller men--a reference to the cover illustration of Hobbes' "Leviathan." It's suggested in several places that no other form of rule would work in Ankh-Morpork. Succession in Ankh-Morpork means that when the old ruler dies, whoever had the second greatest amount of political influence in the city becomes the new one, provided that the guilds approve; Vetinari's system relies on making sure that nobody powerful would benefit more from his death than they would lose in the ensuing power vaccuum. On the other hand, Vetinari is the ''first'' benevolent tyrant Ankh-Morpork has had; the previous ones ranged from venal opportunists to raving madmen.
--->''Ankh-Morpork is a democracy - they believe in One Man, One Vote. Vetinari is the Man and he gets the Vote.''

to:

* The ''Literature/{{Discworld}}'' series by Terry Pratchett Creator/TerryPratchett has a strand of Hobbes Was Right: The Lord Vetinari is a long-running benign tyrant character, who at one point is shown to be drawing a picture of a crowned man made of thousands of smaller men--a reference to the cover illustration of Hobbes' "Leviathan." It's suggested in several places that no other form of rule would work in Ankh-Morpork. Succession in Ankh-Morpork means that when the old ruler dies, whoever had the second greatest amount of political influence in the city becomes the new one, provided that the guilds approve; Vetinari's system relies on making sure that nobody powerful would benefit more from his death than they would lose in the ensuing power vaccuum. On the other hand, Vetinari is the ''first'' benevolent tyrant Ankh-Morpork has had; the previous ones ranged from venal opportunists to raving madmen.
--->''Ankh-Morpork -->''Ankh-Morpork is a democracy - they believe in One Man, One Vote. Vetinari is the Man and he gets the Vote.''



** XXXX does have 'elected' politicians and [=PMs=]... who are put in jail as soon as they're elected, to save time.

to:

** XXXX does have 'elected' politicians and [=PMs=]... [=PMs=]… who are put in jail as soon as they're elected, to save time.



** The government of Secundus is probably the most fantastical bit of political nonsense RAH ever posited, and he posited some doozies. I doubt if even he really took it seriously. Which was somewhat lampshaded by Lazarus himself when he said that he hadn't expected it to last more than a couple centuries, instead of nearly two thousand years (a near-immortal population may have helped)

to:

** The government of Secundus is probably the most fantastical bit of political nonsense RAH ever posited, and he posited some doozies. I doubt if even he really took it seriously. Which was somewhat lampshaded by Lazarus himself when he said that he hadn't expected it to last more than a couple centuries, instead of nearly two thousand years (a near-immortal population may have helped)helped).



** Though this is depicted less as a function of human nature in general and more that the only sort of government most people in this world are familiar with is the Lord Ruler's totalitarian theocracy. Hard to have a democracy when the average person on the street doesn't know or care what voting ''is''...

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** Though this is depicted less as a function of human nature in general and more that the only sort of government most people in this world are familiar with is the Lord Ruler's totalitarian theocracy. Hard to have a democracy when the average person on the street doesn't know or care what voting ''is''...''is''…



** Gulliver is rescued at sea after his time with them. The captain and crew treat him very humanely. He tries to get to a boat and escape -- to the middle of the ocean. He's caught and they conclude that his wits had been disordered by his sufferings.

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** Gulliver is rescued at sea after his time with them. The captain and crew treat him very humanely. He tries to get to a boat and escape -- to escape--to the middle of the ocean. He's caught and they conclude that his wits had been disordered by his sufferings.



* While it should not be taken as an accurate reflection of the political views of GRRM, ''{{A Song of Ice and Fire}}'' is an apt illustration of the inherent fallibility and inevitable failure of Man without a strong, central authority - that is, Hobbesian philosophy. When King Robert I Baratheon dies without a legitimate heir, the Seven Kingdoms collapse into chaos and five men step forward, each proclaiming themselves the rightful king. None of them succeed in putting things to right, and all but one of them is now dead.

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* While it should not be taken as an accurate reflection of the political views of GRRM, ''{{A Song of Ice and Fire}}'' ''Literature/ASongOfIceAndFire'' is an apt illustration of the inherent fallibility and inevitable failure of Man without a strong, central authority - that authority--that is, Hobbesian philosophy. When King Robert I Baratheon dies without a legitimate heir, the Seven Kingdoms collapse into chaos and five men step forward, each proclaiming themselves the rightful king. None of them succeed in putting things to right, and all but one of them is now dead.



** The same could be said for his predecessor, Aerys II, [[TheCaligula the 'Mad King']] - the last of the Targaryen dragon kings. Aerys began his reign with great promise, and by the end had descended into [[{{RoyallyScrewedUp}} homicidal madness]].
** In the time when the Seven Kingdoms really were seven, petty kingdoms - Aegon Targaryen, the Lord of Dragonstone, landed in Westeros with his sister-wives, their three dragons, and twelve hundred swordsmen. He proceeded to conquer six of the seven kingdoms in the most efficient and brutal fashion - including having his dragon and personal mount burn down the great castle of Harren the Black, with Harren and all his family and retainers sealed inside. After the Conquest, King Aegon I was ever after known as Aegon the Conqueror; he melted down the blades of his foes to forge the Iron Throne and built his capital, King's Landing, on the spot where he landed on the coast with his host. Aegon was successful because he was charismatic, able, and single-minded. His son and heir, Aenys the Weak, proved to be none of these things and nearly lost ''everything'' his father had ever achieved because of such. The reason he did not was because his half-brother, Maegor the Cruel, proved to be even more ruthless than their royal sire when dealing with the enemies of House Targaryen.
** The series has featured several characters, often POV characters, who've tried to achieve goals for the greater good and/or by methods other than an iron fist. Rate of success: Zero. Odds of survival for the poor schmuck who tried it: About 50/50 ([[spoiler: Tyrion and Daenerys survived, Ned and Rob didn't, Jon's and Brienne's deaths were heavily implied but are considered LikeYouWouldReallyDoIt ]])

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** The same could be said for his predecessor, Aerys II, [[TheCaligula the 'Mad King']] - the King']]--the last of the Targaryen dragon kings. Aerys began his reign with great promise, and by the end had descended into [[{{RoyallyScrewedUp}} [[RoyallyScrewedUp homicidal madness]].
** In the time when the Seven Kingdoms really were seven, petty kingdoms - Aegon kingdoms--Aegon Targaryen, the Lord of Dragonstone, landed in Westeros with his sister-wives, their three dragons, and twelve hundred swordsmen. He proceeded to conquer six of the seven kingdoms in the most efficient and brutal fashion - including having his dragon and personal mount burn down the great castle of Harren the Black, with Harren and all his family and retainers sealed inside. After the Conquest, King Aegon I was ever after known as Aegon the Conqueror; he melted down the blades of his foes to forge the Iron Throne and built his capital, King's Landing, on the spot where he landed on the coast with his host. Aegon was successful because he was charismatic, able, and single-minded. His son and heir, Aenys the Weak, proved to be none of these things and nearly lost ''everything'' his father had ever achieved because of such. The reason he did not was because his half-brother, Maegor the Cruel, proved to be even more ruthless than their royal sire when dealing with the enemies of House Targaryen.
** The series has featured several characters, often POV characters, who've tried to achieve goals for the greater good and/or by methods other than an iron fist. Rate of success: Zero. Odds of survival for the poor schmuck who tried it: About 50/50 ([[spoiler: Tyrion ([[spoiler:Tyrion and Daenerys survived, Ned and Rob didn't, Jon's and Brienne's deaths were heavily implied but are considered LikeYouWouldReallyDoIt ]])LikeYouWouldReallyDoIt]]).



-->'''David:''' Yes, I did. You would have known as well, if you had ever bothered to get to know her the way a [[spoiler:brother should.]]

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-->'''David:''' Yes, I did. You would have known as well, if you had ever bothered to get to know her the way a [[spoiler:brother [[spoiler:a brother should.]]



* ''Radio/OurMissBrooks'': This is Mr. Conklin's belief, leastways when it comes to running a high school. Mr. Conklin essentially says as much to Miss Brooks in "Spare That Rod!". Mr. Conklin's military strictness would later put him under the opprobrium of the school board president, Mr. Stone, in the [[TheMovie theatrical]] [[GrandFinale series finale.]]

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* ''Radio/OurMissBrooks'': This is Mr. Conklin's belief, leastways when it comes to running a high school. Mr. Conklin essentially says as much to Miss Brooks in "Spare That Rod!". Mr. Conklin's military strictness would later put him under the opprobrium of the school board president, Mr. Stone, in the [[TheMovie theatrical]] [[GrandFinale series finale.]]finale]].



** The question of whether the Imperium in its current state is helping or hindering the human race is a vexed one among those of its citizens given to pondering such matters. This theme is explored in the Inquisitor game, where two of the rival factions in the Imperial Inquisition - the Amalathians and the Recongregators - hold opposing views. The Amalathians hold to this trope, believing that it is only the absolute authority of the vast, Byzantine Imperium as it is today that can keep Humanity safe. The Recongregators, on the other hand, believe that the Imperium in its current authoritarian state is a massive and dangerous hindrance, which needs radical reform to make it fit for purpose.

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** The question of whether the Imperium in its current state is helping or hindering the human race is a vexed one among those of its citizens given to pondering such matters. This theme is explored in the Inquisitor game, where two of the rival factions in the Imperial Inquisition - the Inquisition--the Amalathians and the Recongregators - hold Recongregators--hold opposing views. The Amalathians hold to this trope, believing that it is only the absolute authority of the vast, Byzantine Imperium as it is today that can keep Humanity safe. The Recongregators, on the other hand, believe that the Imperium in its current authoritarian state is a massive and dangerous hindrance, which needs radical reform to make it fit for purpose.



* In ''VideoGame/TheWorldEndsWithYou'', [[spoiler: Joshua]]'s plan was to [[spoiler: destroy Shibuya,]] as [[spoiler: he]] believed that different ideas by the populace would only cause conflicts. [[spoiler: Neku initially believes this, but as the game progresses, he changes his mind.]]
* ''VideoGame/{{Fable|I}}'' already referenced Hobbes with the monsters of the same name, but in ''[[VideoGame/FableIII III]]'', [[spoiler:Logan believes in his ideals, and this is in fact the easiest [[EarnYourHappyEnding (but not best)]] way to save your people: by oppressing them to raise money to fight the Crawler.]]

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* In ''VideoGame/TheWorldEndsWithYou'', [[spoiler: Joshua]]'s [[spoiler:Joshua]]'s plan was to [[spoiler: destroy Shibuya,]] [[spoiler:destroy Shibuya]], as [[spoiler: he]] [[spoiler:he]] believed that different ideas by the populace would only cause conflicts. [[spoiler: Neku initially believes this, but as the game progresses, he changes his mind.]]
* ''VideoGame/{{Fable|I}}'' already referenced Hobbes with the monsters of the same name, but in ''[[VideoGame/FableIII III]]'', [[spoiler:Logan believes in his ideals, and this is in fact the easiest [[EarnYourHappyEnding (but ([[EarnYourHappyEnding but not best)]] best]]) way to save your people: by oppressing them to raise money to fight the Crawler.]]



* The entire FourX genre is built around Hobbes' philosophy gameplay-wise. Whether it espouses or condemns authoritarianism in its EncyclopediaExposita, the entire genre is essentially about being the single authoritarian leader -- Hobbes' "sovereign" -- and seeking to win by being the best at controlling every aspect of your chosen faction.

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* The entire FourX genre is built around Hobbes' philosophy gameplay-wise. Whether it espouses or condemns authoritarianism in its EncyclopediaExposita, the entire genre is essentially about being the single authoritarian leader -- Hobbes' "sovereign" -- and leader--Hobbes' "sovereign"--and seeking to win by being the best at controlling every aspect of your chosen faction.



* Niccolo Machiavelli is often accused of being an adherent of this trope, due to ''ThePrince''. Others believe that ''ThePrince'' was a [[EnforcedTrope government-mandated]] StealthParody, and Machiavelli himself supported republicanism.

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* Niccolo Machiavelli Creator/NiccoloMachiavelli is often accused of being an adherent of this trope, due to ''ThePrince''. ''Literature/ThePrince''. Others believe that ''ThePrince'' ''The Prince'' was a [[EnforcedTrope government-mandated]] StealthParody, and Machiavelli himself supported republicanism.



* It often happens that an intellectual will defend a specific tyrant on the basis of the people being uneducated or otherwise unfit for democracy, and thus said tyrant is necessary to maintain order and develop the country. Naturally the tyrant agrees, and may end up encouraging this idea.

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* It often happens that an intellectual will defend a specific tyrant on the basis of the people being uneducated or otherwise unfit for democracy, and thus said tyrant is necessary to maintain order and develop the country. Naturally Naturally, the tyrant agrees, agrees and may end up encouraging this idea.
5th Aug '16 6:35:12 AM ZarbiNerada
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Contrast MachiavelliWasWrong and RousseauWasRight; compare and contrast TheExtremistWasRight, {{Realpolitik}} and UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans. Has nothing to do with ''ComicStrip/CalvinAndHobbes'', though ''that'' Hobbes was named after this one.

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Contrast MachiavelliWasWrong and RousseauWasRight; compare and contrast TheExtremistWasRight, {{Realpolitik}} and UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans. Has nothing to do with ''ComicStrip/CalvinAndHobbes'', though ''that'' Hobbes was named after this one. For Hobbes' views on the supernatural, see DevilButNoGod and BurnTheWitch
24th Jul '16 7:54:46 PM poi99
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->''"This fight is my king's will. I cannot stop fighting just because I don't agree with him. If we don't pull together under our new king, the nation will fall apart again, just as it did before its liberation."''
-->-- '''Micaiah''', ''[[VideoGame/FireEmblemTellius Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn]]''
23rd Jul '16 6:55:33 AM Parasect
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* Hobbes's famous phrase, "nasty, brutish, and short," describes Calvin of ''ComicStrip/CalvinAndHobbes'' to a T.
** Hobbes the tiger himself, not being a man, is refined, well-mannered, and tall - though he does still have those "pouncing" and "hunt, chase, kill" instincts.
** During a one-sided philosophical conversation between Calvin and Hobbes while riding on their sled, Calvin asks Hobbes if he thinks human nature is "good, bad or crazy." Hobbes is more interested in Calvin's reckless steering than giving a response, but when they inevitably crash he picks "crazy."
15th Jun '16 8:12:18 PM Stormtroper
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Added DiffLines:

* It often happens that an intellectual will defend a specific tyrant on the basis of the people being uneducated or otherwise unfit for democracy, and thus said tyrant is necessary to maintain order and develop the country. Naturally the tyrant agrees, and may end up encouraging this idea.
3rd Jun '16 5:16:56 PM SpaceWolf
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Named after Thomas Hobbes, who wrote in the 17th-century book ''Leviathan'' that strong, centralized government is necessary to protect mankind from its own base nature and self-serving desires. The trope is based on a [[{{Flanderization}} Flanderized]] version of his Philosophy. Whether this is sometimes TruthInTelevision is [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment probably best left alone]], though it is worth noting that many medieval kings (as an isolated example) had to be strong and bastardly to be effective. Naturally, this opinion goes hand in hand with the belief that HumansAreBastards, possibly HumansAreMorons if the arguments are about the reliability of human judgment if power is left in the hands of the many (though when one considers who the only available candidates for rulership are--[[DontExplainTheJoke namely, members of that same species of bastard morons]]...). Indeed, Rousseau -- the chief defender of the contrary position -- had some choice words for Hobbes (although Hobbes, being dead, couldn't appreciate the insults).

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Named after Thomas Hobbes, who wrote in the 17th-century book ''Leviathan'' that strong, centralized government is necessary to protect mankind from its own base nature and self-serving desires. The trope is based on a [[{{Flanderization}} Flanderized]] version of his Philosophy.philosophy. Whether this is sometimes TruthInTelevision is [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment probably best left alone]], though it is worth noting that many medieval kings (as an isolated example) had to be strong and bastardly to be effective. Naturally, this opinion goes hand in hand with the belief that HumansAreBastards, possibly HumansAreMorons if the arguments are about the reliability of human judgment if power is left in the hands of the many (though when one considers who the only available candidates for rulership are--[[DontExplainTheJoke namely, members of that same species of bastard morons]]...). Indeed, Rousseau -- the chief defender of the contrary position -- had some choice words for Hobbes (although Hobbes, being dead, couldn't appreciate the insults).
23rd May '16 7:04:47 PM WillKeaton
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* Disturbingly, studies have been conducted which find that [[http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?page=full informing the populace of facts actually reinforces their manifestly-incorrect beliefs]], which seems to refute the major principle of democratic societies that, in a free exchange of ideas, the good ones will always win out.

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* Disturbingly, studies have been conducted which find that [[http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?page=full informing the populace of facts actually reinforces their manifestly-incorrect beliefs]], beliefs,]] which seems to refute the major principle of democratic societies that, in a free exchange of ideas, the good ones will always win out.
23rd May '16 7:04:01 PM WillKeaton
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* PlayedForLaughs in an episode of the ''WesternAnimation/EarthwormJim'' animated series. Princess Whatshername establishes a democracy on her homeworld after overthrowing [[GodSaveUsFromTheQueen Queen]] [[OverlyLongName Pulsating, Bloated, Festering, Sweaty, Pus-Filled, Malformed Slug-for-a-butt]]. The newly liberated aliens all just vote Slugforabutt in as queen again (It didn't occur to anyone that they could or should run against her).

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* PlayedForLaughs in an episode of the ''WesternAnimation/EarthwormJim'' animated series. Princess Whatshername establishes a democracy on her homeworld after overthrowing [[GodSaveUsFromTheQueen Queen]] [[OverlyLongName Pulsating, Bloated, Festering, Sweaty, Pus-Filled, Malformed Slug-for-a-butt]]. The newly liberated aliens all just vote Slugforabutt in as queen again again. (It didn't occur to anyone that they could or should run against her).her.)
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