History Main / HobbesWasRight

10th Jul '17 5:54:24 PM KillerClowns
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* Seems to be the reason [[EvilOverlord Kyros]] decided to TakeOverTheWorld in ''VideoGame/{{Tyranny}}''. Their laws are harsh, draconian, and occasionally seem arbitrary, but Kyros has plenty of supporters because before they cam along, the world was a patchwork of constantly-warring states. Kyros' laws are ruthless, the logic goes, but they are fairly applied, and they prevent bloodshed in the long run.
7th Jul '17 1:16:51 PM StFan
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The only forces capable of controlling this setting are tyrants, dictators and authoritarian groups. Any attempt at democracy is [[DemocracyIsBad a doomed enterprise]], formulated by {{Wide Eyed Idealist}}s working under the belief that there is a grain of selflessness in ''any'' person.

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The only forces capable of controlling this setting are tyrants, dictators and authoritarian groups. Any attempt at democracy is [[DemocracyIsBad a doomed enterprise]], formulated by {{Wide Eyed Idealist}}s [[WideEyedIdealist Wide-Eyed Idealists]] working under the belief that there is a grain of selflessness in ''any'' person.






* In a ''NewspaperComic/BloomCounty'' strip [[http://www.yesbutnobutyes.com/assets_c/2010/05/humanity_bl-11775.html seen here,]] Binkley is pondering his faith in humanity (as he tends to do a lot), not knowing that Portnoy is about to play a rather nasty prank on him for no real reason, which could possibly prove Hobbes right; however, when Binkley askes the question, "Do you think, deep in our hearts, we're basically ''evil''?" Portnoy stops, thinks about it, and changes his mind. "Nah…" he replies.



[[folder:Comic Strips]]
* In a ''ComicStrip/BloomCounty'' strip [[http://www.yesbutnobutyes.com/assets_c/2010/05/humanity_bl-11775.html seen here,]] Binkley is pondering his faith in humanity (as he tends to do a lot), not knowing that Portnoy is about to play a rather nasty prank on him for no real reason, which could possibly prove Hobbes right; however, when Binkley askes the question, "Do you think, deep in our hearts, we're basically ''evil''?" Portnoy stops, thinks about it, and changes his mind. "Nah…" he replies.
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[[folder:Film]]
* Minor example in ''Film/MenInBlack''; Kay's explanation as to why the secrecy is important had shades of Hobbes' theory:
-->'''Jay:''' Why the big secret? People are smart, they can handle it.
-->'''Kay:''' A ''person'' is smart. ''People'' are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. Everything they've ever "known" has been proven to be wrong. A thousand years ago everybody knew as a fact, that the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew that the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on it. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

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[[folder:Films -- Live-Action]]
* Minor example in ''Film/MenInBlack''; Kay's explanation as to why the secrecy is important had shades of Hobbes' Hobbes's theory:
-->'''Jay:''' Why the big secret? People are smart, they can handle it. \n-->'''Kay:''' \\
'''Kay:'''
A ''person'' is smart. ''People'' are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. Everything they've ever "known" has been proven to be wrong. A thousand years ago everybody knew as a fact, that the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew that the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on it. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.



* Loki espouses this view during a speech in ''Film/{{The Avengers|2012}}''.
** And then ''Film/CaptainAmericaTheWinterSoldier'' reveals he was neither the first, nor was he alone. According to [[spoiler:Arnim Zola]], the [[Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse MCU]] incarnation of "''ComicBook/{{HYDRA}} was founded on the belief that humanity could not be trusted with its own freedom.''"

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* Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse:
**
Loki espouses this view during a speech in ''Film/{{The Avengers|2012}}''.
** And then ''Film/CaptainAmericaTheWinterSoldier'' reveals he was neither the first, nor was he alone. According to [[spoiler:Arnim Zola]], the [[Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse MCU]] MCU incarnation of "''ComicBook/{{HYDRA}} was founded on the belief that humanity could not be trusted with its own freedom.''"






** The series has a strand of Hobbes Was Right: The Lord Vetinari is a long-running benign tyrant character, who at one point is shown to be drawing a picture of a crowned man made of thousands of smaller men--a reference to the cover illustration of Hobbes' "Leviathan." It's suggested in several places that no other form of rule would work in Ankh-Morpork. Succession in Ankh-Morpork means that when the old ruler dies, whoever had the second greatest amount of political influence in the city becomes the new one, provided that the guilds approve; Vetinari's system relies on making sure that nobody powerful would benefit more from his death than they would lose in the ensuing power vaccuum. On the other hand, Vetinari is the ''first'' benevolent tyrant Ankh-Morpork has had; the previous ones ranged from venal opportunists to raving madmen. "Ankh-Morpork is a democracy - they believe in One Man, One Vote. Vetinari is the Man and he gets the Vote."

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** The series has a strand of Hobbes Was Right: The Lord Vetinari is a long-running benign tyrant character, who at one point is shown to be drawing a picture of a crowned man made of thousands of smaller men--a men -- a reference to the cover illustration of Hobbes' "Leviathan." Hobbes's "Leviathan". It's suggested in several places that no other form of rule would work in Ankh-Morpork. Succession in Ankh-Morpork means that when the old ruler dies, whoever had the second greatest amount of political influence in the city becomes the new one, provided that the guilds approve; Vetinari's system relies on making sure that nobody powerful would benefit more from his death than they would lose in the ensuing power vaccuum. On the other hand, Vetinari is the ''first'' benevolent tyrant Ankh-Morpork has had; the previous ones ranged from venal opportunists to raving madmen. "Ankh-Morpork is a democracy - -- they believe in One Man, One Vote. Vetinari is the Man and he gets the Vote."



** According to Sam Vimes, his regicidal ancestor brought democracy to Ankh-Morpork, and they voted against it. And then had him hung, drawn and quartered as a tyrant. Cf Oliver Cromwell, although he at least made Britain a much ''more'' democratic place even after the monarchy came back.

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** According to Sam Vimes, his regicidal ancestor brought democracy to Ankh-Morpork, and they voted against it. And then had him hung, drawn and quartered as a tyrant. Cf C.f. Oliver Cromwell, although he at least made Britain a much ''more'' democratic place even after the monarchy came back.



** XXXX does have 'elected' politicians and [=PMs=]... who are put in jail as soon as they're elected, to save time.

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** XXXX does have 'elected' "elected" politicians and [=PMs=]... who are put in jail as soon as they're elected, to save time.



-->'''Helen:''' Do you honestly believe such governments can last in earnest? They can be founded on such idealism, perhaps, but it is inevitable that they will give rise to new royalty and be ruled by it. The only difference is that the kings of democracy can hide themselves behind a veil of elected figureheads.
-->'''[[spoiler:Luther:]]''' Did you know she was this cynical?
-->'''David:''' Yes, I did. You would have known as well, if you had ever bothered to get to know her the way [[spoiler:a brother should.]]

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-->'''Helen:''' Do you honestly believe such governments can last in earnest? They can be founded on such idealism, perhaps, but it is inevitable that they will give rise to new royalty and be ruled by it. The only difference is that the kings of democracy can hide themselves behind a veil of elected figureheads.
-->'''[[spoiler:Luther:]]'''
figureheads.\\
'''[[spoiler:Luther:]]'''
Did you know she was this cynical?
-->'''David:'''
cynical?\\
'''David:'''
Yes, I did. You would have known as well, if you had ever bothered to get to know her the way [[spoiler:a brother should.]]



[[folder:Multi Media]]
* ''Franchise/{{Transformers}}'' Megatron, in all of his incarnations, agrees with Hobbes that it is better off if for everyone if the strong are able to rule. His motto on the card where his first action figure was introduced was simply, "Peace through tyranny." Unfortunately, he tends to stray from this goal and start others out of revenge or lust for power, becoming the usual definition of tyranny.

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[[folder:Tabletop Games]]
* ''Franchise/{{Transformers}}'' Megatron, ''TabletopGame/Warhammer40000'': Without the autocratic Imperium, its bureaucracy will not be able to prevent the fall of humanity as we know it. Somewhat justified, in all that it's a state of his incarnations, agrees with Hobbes [[EverythingTryingToKillYou continuous emergency martial law]]. Without the constant threat, the Imperium would probably be torn apart by rebellion, or collapse under the weight of [[ObstructiveBureaucrat its own rotten bureaucracy]]. It already spends as much time and energy on [[DividedWeFall infighting]] as it does on genuine defense. The largely autonomous Space Marines and Inquisition are the only reason it can effectively defend itself until the real military gets in gear for each threat. The question of whether the Imperium in its current state is helping or hindering the human race is a vexed one among those of its citizens given to pondering such matters. This theme is explored in the Inquisitor game, where two of the rival factions in the Imperial Inquisition -- the Amalathians and the Recongregators -- hold opposing views. The Amalathians hold to this trope, believing that it is better off if for everyone if only the strong are able to rule. His motto absolute authority of the vast, Byzantine Imperium as it is today that can keep Humanity safe. The Recongregators, on the card where his first action figure was introduced was simply, "Peace through tyranny." Unfortunately, he tends to stray from this goal other hand, believe that the Imperium in its current authoritarian state is a massive and start others out of revenge or lust dangerous hindrance, which needs radical reform to make it fit for power, becoming the usual definition of tyranny.purpose.



[[folder:Tabletop [=RPGs=]]]
* ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'': Without the autocratic Imperium, its bureaucracy will not be able to prevent the fall of humanity as we know it. Somewhat justified, in that it's a state of [[EverythingTryingToKillYou continuous emergency martial law]]. Without the constant threat, the Imperium would probably be torn apart by rebellion, or collapse under the weight of [[ObstructiveBureaucrat its own rotten bureaucracy]]. It already spends as much time and energy on [[DividedWeFall infighting]] as it does on genuine defense. The largely-autonomous Space Marines and Inquisition are the only reason it can effectively defend itself until the real military gets in gear for each threat. The question of whether the Imperium in its current state is helping or hindering the human race is a vexed one among those of its citizens given to pondering such matters. This theme is explored in the Inquisitor game, where two of the rival factions in the Imperial Inquisition--the Amalathians and the Recongregators--hold opposing views. The Amalathians hold to this trope, believing that it is only the absolute authority of the vast, Byzantine Imperium as it is today that can keep Humanity safe. The Recongregators, on the other hand, believe that the Imperium in its current authoritarian state is a massive and dangerous hindrance, which needs radical reform to make it fit for purpose.

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[[folder:Tabletop [=RPGs=]]]
[[folder:Toys]]
* ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'': Without the autocratic Imperium, its bureaucracy will not be able to prevent the fall ''Franchise/{{Transformers}}'' Megatron, in all of humanity as we know it. Somewhat justified, in that it's a state of [[EverythingTryingToKillYou continuous emergency martial law]]. Without the constant threat, the Imperium would probably be torn apart by rebellion, or collapse under the weight of [[ObstructiveBureaucrat its own rotten bureaucracy]]. It already spends as much time and energy on [[DividedWeFall infighting]] as it does on genuine defense. The largely-autonomous Space Marines and Inquisition are the only reason it can effectively defend itself until the real military gets in gear for each threat. The question of whether the Imperium in its current state is helping or hindering the human race is a vexed one among those of its citizens given to pondering such matters. This theme is explored in the Inquisitor game, where two of the rival factions in the Imperial Inquisition--the Amalathians and the Recongregators--hold opposing views. The Amalathians hold to this trope, believing his incarnations, agrees with Hobbes that it is only better off if for everyone if the absolute authority of the vast, Byzantine Imperium as it is today that can keep Humanity safe. The Recongregators, strong are able to rule. His motto on the other hand, believe that card where his first action figure was introduced was simply, "Peace through tyranny." Unfortunately, he tends to stray from this goal and start others out of revenge or lust for power, becoming the Imperium in its current authoritarian state is a massive and dangerous hindrance, which needs radical reform to make it fit for purpose.usual definition of tyranny.
23rd Jun '17 3:31:57 PM ectostar
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21st Jun '17 9:00:16 AM LadyJaneGrey
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[[folder:Multi Media]]
* ''Franchise/{{Transformers}}'' Megatron, in all of his incarnations, agrees with Hobbes that it is better off if for everyone if the strong are able to rule. His motto on the card where his first action figure was introduced was simply, "Peace through tyranny." Unfortunately, he tends to stray from this goal and start others out of revenge or lust for power, becoming the usual definition of tyranny.
[[/folder]]
23rd May '17 6:26:12 AM Materioptikon
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* ''Webcomic/{{Freefall}} has the Mayor, who's both at a loss as to how to govern a society of robots who ''are'' dedicated to being civil, law-abiding citizens, and believes the act of the liberation of the robots via a concerted effort from honest politicians and {{honest corporate executive}}s working together for the greater good to be an exception, not the rule.

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* ''Webcomic/{{Freefall}} ''Webcomic/{{Freefall}}'' has the Mayor, who's both at a loss as to how to govern a society of robots who ''are'' dedicated to being civil, law-abiding citizens, and believes the act of the liberation of the robots via a concerted effort from honest politicians and {{honest corporate executive}}s working together for the greater good to be an exception, not the rule.
23rd May '17 6:25:09 AM Materioptikon
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* ''Webcomic/{{Freefall}} has the Mayor, who's both at a loss as to how to govern a society of robots who ''are'' dedicated to being civil, law-abiding citizens, and believes the act of the liberation of the robots via a concerted effort from honest politicians and {{honest corporate executive}}s working together for the greater good to be an exception, not the rule.
21st May '17 6:43:24 AM KillerClowns
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* Somewhat amusingly in hindsight, the theologian John Calvin had a similarly pessimistic view of humanity. His Doctrine of Total Depravity maintained that people have a natural, innate inclination to do evil of every sort. It's probable that Calvin's ideas had a significant influence on Hobbes; Hobbes also thought long and hard about theology, almost certainly read Calvin, and of course Calvinist ideas were "in the air" when Hobbes was writing (remember, the Parliamentary faction in the UsefulNotes/EnglishCivilWar had a leading Puritan--i.e. Calvinist--contingent). The key difference between ''ComicStrip/CalvinAndHobbes'' was that Calvin denied any possibility that this could be countered by mere human authority.

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* Somewhat amusingly in hindsight, the theologian John Calvin had a similarly pessimistic view of humanity. His Doctrine of Total Depravity maintained that people have a natural, innate inclination to do evil of every sort. It's probable that Calvin's ideas had a significant influence on Hobbes; Hobbes also thought long and hard about theology, almost certainly read Calvin, and of course Calvinist ideas were "in the air" when Hobbes was writing (remember, the Parliamentary faction in the UsefulNotes/EnglishCivilWar had a leading Puritan--i.e. Calvinist--contingent). The key difference between ''ComicStrip/CalvinAndHobbes'' Hobbes and Calvin was that Calvin denied any possibility that this could be countered by mere human authority.
26th Apr '17 1:38:15 PM WiseMan23753
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* Technically, almost every problem in the ''Anime/CrossAnge'' is solved with Hobbes' philosophy, by both (anti)-heroes and villains alike. The main warden heartlessly tortures her recruits [[MiseryBuildsCharacter to toughen them up as soldiers]]. The complicent majority of the human populace has to be shot at just to listen. The BigBad [[spoiler:personally admits he designed the Mana users to be submissive because the previous generation was too selfish and engulfed in war]].
31st Mar '17 11:20:22 PM DavidDelony
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* Edward Bernays, the founder of public relations and the nephew of UsefulNotes/SigmundFreud, believed that society had to be manipulated through propaganda for its own good to preserve democracy.
24th Feb '17 6:41:15 PM MugenKagemaru
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** And then ''Film/CaptainAmericaTheWinterSoldier'' reveals he was neither the first, nor was he alone. According to Arnim Zola, the [[Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse MCU]] incarnation of "''ComicBook/{{HYDRA}} was founded on the belief that humanity could not be trusted with its own freedom.''"

to:

** And then ''Film/CaptainAmericaTheWinterSoldier'' reveals he was neither the first, nor was he alone. According to Arnim Zola, [[spoiler:Arnim Zola]], the [[Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse MCU]] incarnation of "''ComicBook/{{HYDRA}} was founded on the belief that humanity could not be trusted with its own freedom.''"
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