History Main / GrayingMorality

23rd Apr '17 2:56:46 PM nombretomado
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* Almost every game in the Franchise/TalesSeries does this, with the story starting out like a typical BlackAndWhiteMorality ClicheStorm before eventually revealing the villains have understandable motives and occasionally the heroes may not be entirely good.

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* Almost every game in the Franchise/TalesSeries ''VideoGame/TalesSeries'' does this, with the story starting out like a typical BlackAndWhiteMorality ClicheStorm before eventually revealing the villains have understandable motives and occasionally the heroes may not be entirely good.
28th Mar '17 5:21:37 AM Hylarn
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* ''Series/Supernatural'' had much more black and white moral system in the first, with the heroes hunting and killing monsters in order to preserve life. Then, the main characters started to fight demons, which required them to murder innocent human hosts, the supernatural creatures stopped always being evil due to their race, and they started to make deals with demons in order to survive. After a few series, the brothers wouldn't even bat an eye when forced to kill a room full of demons with human hosts, made moral decisions which trod the line between dangerously irresponsible and wilfully evil, and constantly traded away the safety amd wellbeing of huge numbers of people. At this point, it's hard to say whether or not the Winchesters still count as good or even chaotic neutral.

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* ''Series/Supernatural'' ''Series/{{Supernatural}}'' had much more black and white moral system in the first, with the heroes hunting and killing monsters in order to preserve life. Then, the main characters started to fight demons, which required them to murder innocent human hosts, the supernatural creatures stopped always being evil due to their race, and they started to make deals with demons in order to survive. After a few series, the brothers wouldn't even bat an eye when forced to kill a room full of demons with human hosts, made moral decisions which trod the line between dangerously irresponsible and wilfully evil, and constantly traded away the safety amd wellbeing of huge numbers of people. At this point, it's hard to say whether or not the Winchesters still count as good or even chaotic neutral.



* ''VideoGame/{{Touhou}}'' was never blatant good vs evil - everyone, main characters included, have always been huge jerks at best, and "villains" were more prone to PokeThePoodle - but at least starts with clear protagonist and antagonist lines, with {{youkai}} causing trouble for selfish reasons and the humans going out to beat them up until they stop. Then ContinuityCreep and GoingCosmic happen, delving deeply into the nature of the relationship between youkai and humans. This is most apparent in the ExpandedUniverse; ''[[Manga/TouhouIbarakasenWildAndHornedHermit Wild and Horned Hermit]]'' is mostly told from the perspective of youkai and greatly humanizes them (for lack of a better word), portraying them as well-meaning and friendly, but still with a nasty streak that could come out at any time. ''[[Manga/TouhouSuzunaanForbiddenScrollery Forbidden Scrollery]]'' meanwhile is mostly told from human perspectives and portrays youkai as corruptive and malign influences that need to be kept separate from humans at all times (for the benefit of ''both'' groups), but all the most brutal and callous acts in the manga are performed by humans. And ''[[UniverseCompendium Symposium of Post-mysticism]]'' is a debate between the various powers jockeying to control Gensokyo, about the future of the region and the nature of human/youkai relationships, [[BothSidesHaveAPoint all having excellent points]] even if they're all ultimately acting from self-interest.

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* ''VideoGame/{{Touhou}}'' was never blatant good vs evil - everyone, main characters included, have always been huge jerks at best, -- the protagonists weren't especially pleasant and "villains" were more prone the antagonists never seriously intended to PokeThePoodle - cause harm -- but at least starts with clear protagonist and antagonist lines, one side was clearly the good guys, with {{youkai}} causing trouble for selfish reasons and the humans going out to beat them up until they stop. Then ContinuityCreep and GoingCosmic happen, delving deeply into the nature of the relationship between youkai and humans. This is humans, and it becomes increasingly clear that morality isn't a particularly large factor in what's going on (or, rather, that what's moral depends on who you ask, and few people will give answers that seem normal to most apparent in the ExpandedUniverse; ''[[Manga/TouhouIbarakasenWildAndHornedHermit Wild and Horned Hermit]]'' is mostly told from the perspective of youkai and greatly humanizes them (for lack of a better word), portraying them as well-meaning and friendly, but still with a nasty streak that could come out at any time. ''[[Manga/TouhouSuzunaanForbiddenScrollery Forbidden Scrollery]]'' meanwhile is mostly told from human perspectives and portrays youkai as corruptive and malign influences that need to be kept separate from humans at all times (for the benefit of ''both'' groups), but all the most brutal and callous acts in the manga are performed by humans. And ''[[UniverseCompendium Symposium of Post-mysticism]]'' is a debate between the various powers jockeying to control Gensokyo, about the future of the region and the nature of human/youkai relationships, [[BothSidesHaveAPoint all having excellent points]] even if they're all ultimately acting from self-interest.audience).
27th Mar '17 12:07:34 AM MeepieV
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* ''Series/Supernatural'' had much more black and white moral system in the first, with the heroes hunting and killing monsters in order to preserve life. Then, the main characters started to fight demons, which required them to murder innocent human hosts, the supernatural creatures stopped always being evil due to their race, and they started to make deals with demons in order to survive. After a few series, the brothers wouldn't even bat an eye when forced to kill a room full of demons with human hosts, made moral decisions which trod the line between dangerously irresponsible and wilfully evil, and constantly traded away the safety amd wellbeing of huge numbers of people. At this point, it's hard to say whether or not the Winchesters still count as good or even chaotic neutral.
20th Feb '17 5:37:57 AM Mareon
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->''"Last night, the man who killed my brother showed more character than the woman in charge of protecting the world. Good and bad's not so clear to me."''
-->-- '''Diggle''', ''Series/{{Arrow}}''

17th Feb '17 10:03:27 AM KingZeal
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*** The Wardens' actions in ''Inquisition'' actually result in a BrokenPedestal moment for Blackwall, who idolized the Wardens and never knew how shady they could be. Indeed, one of the [[spoiler: clues that Blackwall is not really a Grey Warden is his obvious hero-worship of them, lauding their bravery and goodness]]. If the Player played ''Origins'', they know the Wardens are less [[IdealHero Ideal Heroes]] and more [[PragmaticHero Pragmatic]] or [[UnscrupulousHero Unscrupulous Heroes]].

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*** The Wardens' actions in ''Inquisition'' actually result in a BrokenPedestal moment for Blackwall, who idolized the Wardens and never knew how shady they could be. Indeed, one of the [[spoiler: clues that Blackwall is not really a Grey Warden is his obvious hero-worship of them, lauding their bravery and goodness]]. If the Player played ''Origins'', they know the Wardens are less [[IdealHero Ideal Heroes]] and more [[PragmaticHero Pragmatic]] or [[UnscrupulousHero Unscrupulous Heroes]]. It's also a RebuiltPedestal moment, as Blackwall feels the Wardens are still heroic and inspirational, but for different reasons than he believed.
17th Feb '17 9:25:40 AM Kafkesque
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* ''Literature/{{Animorphs}}'' starts off as a typical children's sci-fi with the Yeerks as evil and the Animorphs, and by extension the Andalites, as the good guys. This doesn't stick. Specifically, while some characters ([[BigBad Visser Three]] and [[EldritchAbomination Crayak]] stand out) are introduced at and stay firmly in "evil" territory, the Yeerks as a whole are revealed to be a nuanced race with a sizable peace faction, the Andalites are elitist and in some ways only barely better than the Yeerks, and the Animorphs have to go ''seriously'' grey before all is said and done.

to:

* ''Literature/{{Animorphs}}'' starts off as a typical children's sci-fi with the Yeerks as evil and the Animorphs, and by extension the Andalites, as the good guys. This doesn't stick. Specifically, while some characters ([[BigBad Visser Three]] and [[EldritchAbomination Crayak]] stand out) are introduced at and stay firmly in "evil" territory, the Yeerks as a whole are revealed to be a nuanced race with a sizable peace faction, the Andalites are elitist and in some ways only barely better than the Yeerks, and the Animorphs have to go ''seriously'' grey before all is said and done. Ultimately the series is less concerned with who is "good" and "evil" than it is with the overall point that WarIsHell.
10th Feb '17 11:23:46 AM NNinja
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* In unusuall way ''Franchise/AceAttorney'' fic ''[[https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10143440/118/Just-a-Note Just a Note]]'' does it to canon through AlternateCharacterInterpretation. One of canon cases involved death of Interpol agent who was tracing smuggling of cocoon which can be used as medicine or poison, and whose taking out of it's origin country is illegal. The culprit wanted to sell cocoon to a buyer whose son needed said medicine to survive. The fic presents the culprit as WellIntentionedExtremist who never wanted any deaths and wanted to get the cocoon to a buyer not for money but to save kid's life, and the victim as someone whose sticking to the rules resulted in child's death.
11th Jan '17 5:05:12 PM detghost
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*** The Wardens' actions in ''Inquisition'' actually result in a BrokenPedestal moment for Blackwall, who had always idolized the Wardens and never knew about their shadiness. Indeed, one of the [[spoiler: clues that Blackwall is not really a Grey Warden is his obvious hero-worship of them, lauding their bravery and goodness]]. If the Player played ''Origins'', they know the Wardens are less [[IdealHero Ideal Heroes]] and more [[PragmaticHero Pragmatic]] or [[UnscrupulousHero Unscrupulous Heroes]].

to:

*** The Wardens' actions in ''Inquisition'' actually result in a BrokenPedestal moment for Blackwall, who had always idolized the Wardens and never knew about their shadiness.how shady they could be. Indeed, one of the [[spoiler: clues that Blackwall is not really a Grey Warden is his obvious hero-worship of them, lauding their bravery and goodness]]. If the Player played ''Origins'', they know the Wardens are less [[IdealHero Ideal Heroes]] and more [[PragmaticHero Pragmatic]] or [[UnscrupulousHero Unscrupulous Heroes]].
11th Jan '17 5:03:59 PM detghost
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*** The Wardens' actions in ''Inquisition'' actually result in a BrokenPedestal moment for Blackwall, who had always idolized the Wardens and never knew about their shadiness.

to:

*** The Wardens' actions in ''Inquisition'' actually result in a BrokenPedestal moment for Blackwall, who had always idolized the Wardens and never knew about their shadiness. Indeed, one of the [[spoiler: clues that Blackwall is not really a Grey Warden is his obvious hero-worship of them, lauding their bravery and goodness]]. If the Player played ''Origins'', they know the Wardens are less [[IdealHero Ideal Heroes]] and more [[PragmaticHero Pragmatic]] or [[UnscrupulousHero Unscrupulous Heroes]].
11th Jan '17 4:53:16 PM detghost
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** The BigBad in ''VideoGame/DragonAgeInquisition'' is a much more cut-and-dry villain, being a former BloodMagic using, slave owning [[TheEmpire Tevinter]] [[AristocratsAreEvil magister]] who broke into the Golden City, thus corrupting it and unleashing [[TheHorde the Blight]]. However, there is more gray added to the [[BlueAndOrangeMorality Qunari people]], the Grey Wardens, and Tevinter. Most significantly, the elven Creators are revealed to have not been as benevolent as the Dalish believe. ''Trespasser'' especially shines light on this, [[spoiler: showing that they weren't gods at all, but petty, vain and power hungry mages who kept slaves and nearly destroyed the world in their quest for power.]] Meanwhile, [[spoiler: Fen'Harel, who the Dalish believe to be the evil god, is shown to have been the least evil of them, although he is not particularly good either.]]

to:

** The BigBad in ''VideoGame/DragonAgeInquisition'' is a much more cut-and-dry villain, being a former BloodMagic using, slave owning [[TheEmpire Tevinter]] [[AristocratsAreEvil magister]] who broke into the Golden City, thus corrupting it and unleashing [[TheHorde the Blight]]. However, there is more gray added to the [[BlueAndOrangeMorality Qunari people]], the Grey Wardens, and Tevinter. Most significantly, the elven Creators are revealed to have not been [[JerkassGods as benevolent benevolent]] as the Dalish believe. ''Trespasser'' especially shines light on this, [[spoiler: showing that they weren't gods at all, but petty, vain and power hungry mages who kept slaves and nearly destroyed the world in their quest for power.]] Meanwhile, [[spoiler: Even the two "good" gods, Mythal and Fen'Harel, who the Dalish believe to be the evil god, is shown to have been the least evil of them, although he is are not particularly good either.actually all that good.]]



*** The Wardens actions in ''Inquisition'' actually results in a BrokenPedestal moment for Blackwall, who had always idolized the Wardens and never knew about their shadiness.

to:

*** The Wardens Wardens' actions in ''Inquisition'' actually results result in a BrokenPedestal moment for Blackwall, who had always idolized the Wardens and never knew about their shadiness.
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