History Main / GrayingMorality

20th Feb '17 5:37:57 AM Mareon
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->''"Last night, the man who killed my brother showed more character than the woman in charge of protecting the world. Good and bad's not so clear to me."''
-->-- '''Diggle''', ''Series/{{Arrow}}''

17th Feb '17 10:03:27 AM KingZeal
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*** The Wardens' actions in ''Inquisition'' actually result in a BrokenPedestal moment for Blackwall, who idolized the Wardens and never knew how shady they could be. Indeed, one of the [[spoiler: clues that Blackwall is not really a Grey Warden is his obvious hero-worship of them, lauding their bravery and goodness]]. If the Player played ''Origins'', they know the Wardens are less [[IdealHero Ideal Heroes]] and more [[PragmaticHero Pragmatic]] or [[UnscrupulousHero Unscrupulous Heroes]].

to:

*** The Wardens' actions in ''Inquisition'' actually result in a BrokenPedestal moment for Blackwall, who idolized the Wardens and never knew how shady they could be. Indeed, one of the [[spoiler: clues that Blackwall is not really a Grey Warden is his obvious hero-worship of them, lauding their bravery and goodness]]. If the Player played ''Origins'', they know the Wardens are less [[IdealHero Ideal Heroes]] and more [[PragmaticHero Pragmatic]] or [[UnscrupulousHero Unscrupulous Heroes]]. It's also a RebuiltPedestal moment, as Blackwall feels the Wardens are still heroic and inspirational, but for different reasons than he believed.
17th Feb '17 9:25:40 AM Kafkesque
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* ''Literature/{{Animorphs}}'' starts off as a typical children's sci-fi with the Yeerks as evil and the Animorphs, and by extension the Andalites, as the good guys. This doesn't stick. Specifically, while some characters ([[BigBad Visser Three]] and [[EldritchAbomination Crayak]] stand out) are introduced at and stay firmly in "evil" territory, the Yeerks as a whole are revealed to be a nuanced race with a sizable peace faction, the Andalites are elitist and in some ways only barely better than the Yeerks, and the Animorphs have to go ''seriously'' grey before all is said and done.

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* ''Literature/{{Animorphs}}'' starts off as a typical children's sci-fi with the Yeerks as evil and the Animorphs, and by extension the Andalites, as the good guys. This doesn't stick. Specifically, while some characters ([[BigBad Visser Three]] and [[EldritchAbomination Crayak]] stand out) are introduced at and stay firmly in "evil" territory, the Yeerks as a whole are revealed to be a nuanced race with a sizable peace faction, the Andalites are elitist and in some ways only barely better than the Yeerks, and the Animorphs have to go ''seriously'' grey before all is said and done. Ultimately the series is less concerned with who is "good" and "evil" than it is with the overall point that WarIsHell.
10th Feb '17 11:23:46 AM NNinja
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* In unusuall way ''Franchise/AceAttorney'' fic ''[[https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10143440/118/Just-a-Note Just a Note]]'' does it to canon through AlternateCharacterInterpretation. One of canon cases involved death of Interpol agent who was tracing smuggling of cocoon which can be used as medicine or poison, and whose taking out of it's origin country is illegal. The culprit wanted to sell cocoon to a buyer whose son needed said medicine to survive. The fic presents the culprit as WellIntentionedExtremist who never wanted any deaths and wanted to get the cocoon to a buyer not for money but to save kid's life, and the victim as someone whose sticking to the rules resulted in child's death.
11th Jan '17 5:05:12 PM detghost
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*** The Wardens' actions in ''Inquisition'' actually result in a BrokenPedestal moment for Blackwall, who had always idolized the Wardens and never knew about their shadiness. Indeed, one of the [[spoiler: clues that Blackwall is not really a Grey Warden is his obvious hero-worship of them, lauding their bravery and goodness]]. If the Player played ''Origins'', they know the Wardens are less [[IdealHero Ideal Heroes]] and more [[PragmaticHero Pragmatic]] or [[UnscrupulousHero Unscrupulous Heroes]].

to:

*** The Wardens' actions in ''Inquisition'' actually result in a BrokenPedestal moment for Blackwall, who had always idolized the Wardens and never knew about their shadiness.how shady they could be. Indeed, one of the [[spoiler: clues that Blackwall is not really a Grey Warden is his obvious hero-worship of them, lauding their bravery and goodness]]. If the Player played ''Origins'', they know the Wardens are less [[IdealHero Ideal Heroes]] and more [[PragmaticHero Pragmatic]] or [[UnscrupulousHero Unscrupulous Heroes]].
11th Jan '17 5:03:59 PM detghost
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*** The Wardens' actions in ''Inquisition'' actually result in a BrokenPedestal moment for Blackwall, who had always idolized the Wardens and never knew about their shadiness.

to:

*** The Wardens' actions in ''Inquisition'' actually result in a BrokenPedestal moment for Blackwall, who had always idolized the Wardens and never knew about their shadiness. Indeed, one of the [[spoiler: clues that Blackwall is not really a Grey Warden is his obvious hero-worship of them, lauding their bravery and goodness]]. If the Player played ''Origins'', they know the Wardens are less [[IdealHero Ideal Heroes]] and more [[PragmaticHero Pragmatic]] or [[UnscrupulousHero Unscrupulous Heroes]].
11th Jan '17 4:53:16 PM detghost
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** The BigBad in ''VideoGame/DragonAgeInquisition'' is a much more cut-and-dry villain, being a former BloodMagic using, slave owning [[TheEmpire Tevinter]] [[AristocratsAreEvil magister]] who broke into the Golden City, thus corrupting it and unleashing [[TheHorde the Blight]]. However, there is more gray added to the [[BlueAndOrangeMorality Qunari people]], the Grey Wardens, and Tevinter. Most significantly, the elven Creators are revealed to have not been as benevolent as the Dalish believe. ''Trespasser'' especially shines light on this, [[spoiler: showing that they weren't gods at all, but petty, vain and power hungry mages who kept slaves and nearly destroyed the world in their quest for power.]] Meanwhile, [[spoiler: Fen'Harel, who the Dalish believe to be the evil god, is shown to have been the least evil of them, although he is not particularly good either.]]

to:

** The BigBad in ''VideoGame/DragonAgeInquisition'' is a much more cut-and-dry villain, being a former BloodMagic using, slave owning [[TheEmpire Tevinter]] [[AristocratsAreEvil magister]] who broke into the Golden City, thus corrupting it and unleashing [[TheHorde the Blight]]. However, there is more gray added to the [[BlueAndOrangeMorality Qunari people]], the Grey Wardens, and Tevinter. Most significantly, the elven Creators are revealed to have not been [[JerkassGods as benevolent benevolent]] as the Dalish believe. ''Trespasser'' especially shines light on this, [[spoiler: showing that they weren't gods at all, but petty, vain and power hungry mages who kept slaves and nearly destroyed the world in their quest for power.]] Meanwhile, [[spoiler: Even the two "good" gods, Mythal and Fen'Harel, who the Dalish believe to be the evil god, is shown to have been the least evil of them, although he is are not particularly good either.actually all that good.]]



*** The Wardens actions in ''Inquisition'' actually results in a BrokenPedestal moment for Blackwall, who had always idolized the Wardens and never knew about their shadiness.

to:

*** The Wardens Wardens' actions in ''Inquisition'' actually results result in a BrokenPedestal moment for Blackwall, who had always idolized the Wardens and never knew about their shadiness.
11th Jan '17 4:49:33 PM detghost
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** The BigBad in ''VideoGame/DragonAgeInquisition'' is a much more cut-and-dry villain, being a former blood magic using, slave owning Tevinter magister who broke into the Golden City, thus corrupting it and unleashing the Blight. However, there is more gray added to the Qunari people, the Grey Wardens, and Tevinter. Most significantly, the elven Creators are revealed to have not been as benevolent as the Dalish believed. Trespasser especially shines light on this, [[spoiler: showing that they weren't gods at all, but petty, vain and power hungry mages who kept slaves and nearly destroyed the world in their quest for power.]] Meanwhile, [[spoiler: Fen'Harel, who the Dalish believe to be the evil god, is shown to have been the least evil of them, although he is not particularly good either.]]
** The Grey Wardens are plenty gray in Origins, shown as early as when the Warden is recruited. The choices available to the Warden throughout the game range from noble and fair to underhanded and even cruel. Still, the Wardens are generally held up as heroes. In ''Dragon Age: Inquisition'', the Orlesian Grey Wardens try to raise a demon army in a misguided attempt to preempt the Blight, going so far as to use BloodMagic and work with a Tevinter magister. The Dragon Age novels "The Calling" and "The Last Flight" also show the darker side of the organization.

to:

** The BigBad in ''VideoGame/DragonAgeInquisition'' is a much more cut-and-dry villain, being a former blood magic BloodMagic using, slave owning Tevinter magister [[TheEmpire Tevinter]] [[AristocratsAreEvil magister]] who broke into the Golden City, thus corrupting it and unleashing [[TheHorde the Blight. Blight]]. However, there is more gray added to the [[BlueAndOrangeMorality Qunari people, people]], the Grey Wardens, and Tevinter. Most significantly, the elven Creators are revealed to have not been as benevolent as the Dalish believed. Trespasser believe. ''Trespasser'' especially shines light on this, [[spoiler: showing that they weren't gods at all, but petty, vain and power hungry mages who kept slaves and nearly destroyed the world in their quest for power.]] Meanwhile, [[spoiler: Fen'Harel, who the Dalish believe to be the evil god, is shown to have been the least evil of them, although he is not particularly good either.]]
** The Grey Wardens are plenty gray in Origins, shown as early as when the Warden is recruited. The choices available to the Warden throughout the game range from noble and fair to underhanded and even cruel. Still, the Wardens are generally held up as heroes. In ''Dragon Age: Inquisition'', the Orlesian Grey Wardens try to raise a demon army in a misguided attempt to preempt the Blight, going so far as to use BloodMagic and work with a Tevinter magister. The Dragon Age novels "The Calling" ''The Calling'' and "The ''The Last Flight" Flight'' also show the darker side of the organization.organization.
*** The Wardens actions in ''Inquisition'' actually results in a BrokenPedestal moment for Blackwall, who had always idolized the Wardens and never knew about their shadiness.
11th Jan '17 4:29:18 PM detghost
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Added DiffLines:

** The BigBad in ''VideoGame/DragonAgeInquisition'' is a much more cut-and-dry villain, being a former blood magic using, slave owning Tevinter magister who broke into the Golden City, thus corrupting it and unleashing the Blight. However, there is more gray added to the Qunari people, the Grey Wardens, and Tevinter. Most significantly, the elven Creators are revealed to have not been as benevolent as the Dalish believed. Trespasser especially shines light on this, [[spoiler: showing that they weren't gods at all, but petty, vain and power hungry mages who kept slaves and nearly destroyed the world in their quest for power.]] Meanwhile, [[spoiler: Fen'Harel, who the Dalish believe to be the evil god, is shown to have been the least evil of them, although he is not particularly good either.]]
** The Grey Wardens are plenty gray in Origins, shown as early as when the Warden is recruited. The choices available to the Warden throughout the game range from noble and fair to underhanded and even cruel. Still, the Wardens are generally held up as heroes. In ''Dragon Age: Inquisition'', the Orlesian Grey Wardens try to raise a demon army in a misguided attempt to preempt the Blight, going so far as to use BloodMagic and work with a Tevinter magister. The Dragon Age novels "The Calling" and "The Last Flight" also show the darker side of the organization.
11th Jan '17 12:08:55 PM MGD107
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* ''Series/{{Merlin 2008}}'': Inverted. Originally, the series had a quite complicated morality. Arthur and Merlin are certainly good people (as was Guinevere), however both of them are forced to support the ruthless, paranoid, nigh-genocidal King Uther. While he is stable and competent ruler, he firmly believes all magic is evil to the point heís had people executed for simply renting a sorcerer a room for the night, has drowned children for having magical parents and would have executed Merlin if he ever learned the truth. Arthur does so out of love of his father, while Merlin does out of loyalty to Arthur and the words of the dragon (who also hates Uther) that heíll be the king they all need. Arthur himself starts off seemingly quite arrogant and firmly believing in his fatherís paranoia. The antagonists are more often than not people Uther has wronged in the past, or would execute just for existing, to the point many border on DesignatedVillain. Itís only due to the extremity of their methods (many wanting to destroy all of Camelot rather than just the king) that they need to be stopped. Morgana likewise starts off as a caring sympathetic person, who has quite a strong FreudianExcuse and even when she sides with Morgause it originally seems hard to call it a FaceHeelTurn. Cracks in this started to appear, however, as it became clear Morgause was not as [[NotSoWellIntentionedExtremist benevolent or good intentioned]] as [[BaitTheDog her first appearances suggested.]] Likewise, her influence on Morgana proved to be profoundly toxic, while Arthur outgrew the majority of his arrogance all the while revealing a deep sympathy for oppressed. By Season Four and Five the series morality became a lot more black and white, as following Utherís death Arthur proves truly becomes TheGoodKing who brings peace, stability, justice and a lot more social mobility to Camelot. Not to mention recruiting the [[KnightInShiningArmor Knights of the Round Table]]. Meanwhile, Morgana [[TookAlevelInJerkass takes multiple levels of jerkass]] and goes through a massive amount of MotiveDecay. Initially, she only wants to rule to end the oppression, by the end [[BecameTheirOwnAntithesis she is the oppressor]] who is blatantly only after personal power, happily leading not one but two separate ruthless hordes of barbarians, who live by RapePillageAndBurn, to invade Camelot. By the end of the series she's just as deluded and paranoid as Uther but proves to be [[TheCaligula an even worse tyrant than him.]] This is arguably the whole point of the series; Merlin needed to ensure Arthur would become king as that was the only way things would get better.

to:

* ''Series/{{Merlin 2008}}'': Inverted. Originally, the series had a quite complicated morality. Arthur and Merlin are certainly good people (as was Guinevere), however both of them are forced to support the ruthless, paranoid, nigh-genocidal King Uther. While he is stable and competent ruler, he firmly believes all magic is evil to the point heís had people executed for simply renting a sorcerer a room for the night, has drowned children for having magical parents and would have executed Merlin if he ever learned the truth. Arthur does so out of love of his father, while Merlin does out of loyalty to Arthur and the words of the dragon (who also hates Uther) that heíll be the king they all need. Arthur himself starts off seemingly quite arrogant and firmly believing in his fatherís paranoia. The antagonists are more often than not people Uther has wronged in the past, or would execute just for existing, to the point many border on DesignatedVillain. Itís only due to the extremity of their methods (many wanting to destroy all of Camelot rather than just the king) that they need to be stopped. Morgana likewise starts off as a caring sympathetic person, who has quite a strong FreudianExcuse and even when she sides with Morgause it originally seems hard to call it a FaceHeelTurn. Cracks in this started to appear, however, as it became clear Morgause was not as [[NotSoWellIntentionedExtremist benevolent or good intentioned]] as [[BaitTheDog her first appearances suggested.]] Likewise, her influence on Morgana proved to be profoundly toxic, while Arthur outgrew the majority of his arrogance all the while revealing a deep sympathy for oppressed. By Season Four and Five the series morality became a lot more black and white, as following Utherís death Arthur proves to truly becomes be TheGoodKing who brings peace, stability, justice and a lot more social mobility to Camelot. Not to mention recruiting the [[KnightInShiningArmor Knights of the Round Table]]. Meanwhile, Morgana [[TookAlevelInJerkass takes multiple levels of jerkass]] and goes through a massive amount of MotiveDecay. Initially, she only wants to rule to end the oppression, by the end [[BecameTheirOwnAntithesis she is the oppressor]] who is blatantly only after personal power, happily leading not one but two separate ruthless hordes of barbarians, who live by RapePillageAndBurn, to invade Camelot. By the end of the series she's just as deluded and paranoid as Uther but proves to be [[TheCaligula an even worse tyrant than him.]] This is arguably the whole point of the series; Merlin needed to ensure Arthur would become king as that was the only way things would get better.
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