History Main / GoodRepublicEvilEmpire

16th Nov '16 2:09:25 PM LordInsane
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

* ''VideoGame/StarTrekOnline'' has what may well be an in-universe invocation of this (even if it plays it straight): the Romulan Star Empire (after the Hobus incident) have developed into a combined military dictatorship/police state with Sela having enshrined herself as a ruling Empress and having the Senate under her thumb, while working in alliance with the Tal Shiar to maintain control over other colony worlds. The Romulan ''Republic'' starts the game as a rebel movement consisting of a coalition of Reunificationists[[note]]Romulans who want to reconnect with Vulcan and Surak's followers[[/note]], other Romulan and Reman dissidents and Romulans who got driven to dissidence over having serious reservations about Sela's and the Tal Shiar's methods, and early on colonises a world to serve as a capital for setting up a rival government (an alliance with the Federation and the Klingon Empire acts as a shield to keep Sela from just launching a full-scale invasion) explicitly meant to be a more open, freer society than the old Star Empire, and to all appearances living up to that.
26th Oct '16 12:11:46 PM cdrood
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** While TheFederation is ostensibly a democracy, its member worlds have been shown to be somewhat mixed as to their form of government. An episode of [[StarTrekTOS the Original Series]] had a member world where the elites lived in a cloud city while the workers, who were little more than slaves due to the conditions of the mines, lived on the surface in caves.

to:

** While TheFederation is ostensibly a democracy, its member worlds have been shown to be somewhat mixed as to their form of government. An episode of [[StarTrekTOS [[StarTrekTheOriginalSeries the Original Series]] had a member world where the elites lived in a cloud city while the workers, who were little more than slaves due to the conditions of the mines, lived on the surface in caves.
26th Oct '16 12:11:05 PM cdrood
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

** While TheFederation is ostensibly a democracy, its member worlds have been shown to be somewhat mixed as to their form of government. An episode of [[StarTrekTOS the Original Series]] had a member world where the elites lived in a cloud city while the workers, who were little more than slaves due to the conditions of the mines, lived on the surface in caves.
11th Oct '16 8:10:39 AM Paireon
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** The biggest irony is that despite being less populated and smaller than the Empire, the Alliance has fought it to a standstill for 150 years, and even with its corrupt elite, its GDP by capita was nearly twice as big as the Empire. Reinhart himself admits that [[spoiler:if the Alliance's idealists had not been blocked by a glass ceiling, he would not have been able to beat them]]. It's actually the whole reason of Yang's loyalty toward the Alliance: he claims repeatedly that the worst democraty is still better that the best dictatorship.

to:

** The biggest irony is that despite being less populated and smaller than the Empire, the Alliance has fought it to a standstill for 150 years, and even with its corrupt elite, its GDP by capita was nearly twice as big as the Empire. Reinhart himself admits that [[spoiler:if the Alliance's idealists had not been blocked by a glass ceiling, he would not have been able to beat them]]. It's actually the whole reason of Yang's loyalty toward the Alliance: he claims repeatedly that the worst democraty democracy is still better that the best dictatorship.
11th Oct '16 8:08:31 AM Paireon
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** Though this is a case of an {{unreliable narrator speaking}} to a group of soldiers before battle. Belittling the enemy as a bunch of wishy-washy pansies, praising your violent and decisive king, and mocking politicians is a good way to rile them up. Why would the narrator speak of anything positive regarding the Persians?

to:

** Though this is a case of an {{unreliable narrator speaking}} narrator}} speaking to a group of soldiers before battle. Belittling the enemy as a bunch of wishy-washy pansies, praising your violent and decisive king, and mocking politicians is a good way to rile them up. Why would the narrator speak of anything positive regarding the Persians?
11th Oct '16 7:57:13 AM Paireon
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* It's not entirely clear whether ''Anime/CodeGeass'' subverts or plays this straight, the antagonists for most of the series are the Brittanian Empire, and the Black Knights form the United States of Japan and United Federation of Nations. But earlier the EU was the only major power that was democratic and was so weak it was barely even mentioned.
* Averted in ''LightNovel/CrestOfTheStars'' where war between monarchistic Humankind Abh Empire and democratic United Humankind is shown to be the case of GreyAndGrayMorality with neither side being completely good or bad. Partially inverted with Abh Empire being ALighterShadeOfGray of this conflict.

to:

* It's not entirely clear whether ''Anime/CodeGeass'' subverts or plays this straight, the antagonists for most of the series are the Brittanian Empire, and the Black Knights form the United States of Japan and United Federation of Nations. But earlier the EU was the only major power that was democratic and [[HufflepuffHouse was so weak it was barely even mentioned.
mentioned]].
* Averted in ''LightNovel/CrestOfTheStars'' where war between monarchistic Humankind Abh Empire and democratic United Humankind is shown to be the case of GreyAndGrayMorality with neither side being completely good or bad. Partially inverted with the Abh Empire being ALighterShadeOfGray of this conflict.



** Granted, the ExpandedUniverse raises some questions regarding the matter of which side are the good guys. Before the machines took over, [[HumansAreTheRealMonsters humanity is clearly presented as the bigger monsters]]. The worst the machines ever did was winning a war that was started by the humans in the first place, and using humans as makeshift batteries.

to:

** Granted, the ExpandedUniverse raises some questions regarding the matter of which side are the good guys. Before the machines took over, [[HumansAreTheRealMonsters humanity is clearly presented as the bigger monsters]].monsters]] (although [[UnreliableExpositor the machines are the ones telling the story]], so take that as you will). The worst the machines ever did was winning a war that was started by the humans in the first place, and using humans as makeshift batteries.



** Though this is a case of an unreliable narrator speaking to a group of soldiers before battle. Belittling the enemy as a bunch of wishy-washy pansies, praising your violent and decisive king, and mocking politicians is a good way to rile them up. Why would the narrator speak of anything positive regarding the Persians?

to:

** Though this is a case of an unreliable {{unreliable narrator speaking speaking}} to a group of soldiers before battle. Belittling the enemy as a bunch of wishy-washy pansies, praising your violent and decisive king, and mocking politicians is a good way to rile them up. Why would the narrator speak of anything positive regarding the Persians?



* Subverted in the ''Literature/CoDominium'' series, were the resistance often want republican forms of government, but often use violent and unethical methods to achieve their goals, or end up being hypocrites. True Empires (led by a constitutional monarchy) are often portrayed as positive (or at least not as malevolent).

to:

* Subverted in the ''Literature/CoDominium'' series, were the resistance often want republican forms of government, but [[TheRevolutionWillNotBeCivilized often use violent and unethical methods to achieve their goals, goals]], or end up being hypocrites.{{hypocrite}}s. True Empires (led by a constitutional monarchy) are often portrayed as positive (or at least not as malevolent).



* Creator/GoreVidal's ''Literature/{{Creation}}'' points out how this rarely works out as simply as it does in HistoricalFiction. He notes that the Persian Empire were an abolitionist, multit-cultural empire where women had some amount of freedom and social rights and authority, as opposed to the Greek City States of Athens and Sparta, which are slave-owning, aristocratic and decidedly less fair to women.

to:

* Creator/GoreVidal's ''Literature/{{Creation}}'' points out how this rarely works out as simply as it does in HistoricalFiction. He notes that the Persian Empire were an abolitionist, multit-cultural multi-cultural empire where women had some amount of freedom and social rights and authority, as opposed to the Greek City States of Athens and Sparta, which are slave-owning, aristocratic and decidedly less fair to women.



** The best-organized baddies are dictatorships, (led by [[ItMakesSenseInContext Al Capone]] and a Satanist).

to:

** The best-organized baddies are dictatorships, (led led by [[ItMakesSenseInContext Al Capone]] and a Satanist).Satanist.



** The biggest irony is that despite being less populated and smaller than the Empire, the Alliance has fought it to a standstill for 150 years, and even with its corrupt elite, its GDP by capita was nearly twice as big as the Empire. Reinhart himself admit that [[spoiler:if the Alliance'es idealists had not been blocked by a glass ceiling, he would not have been able to beat them]]. It's actually the whole reason of Yang loyalty toward the Alliance: he claims repeatedly that the worst democraty is still better that the best dictatorship.

to:

** The biggest irony is that despite being less populated and smaller than the Empire, the Alliance has fought it to a standstill for 150 years, and even with its corrupt elite, its GDP by capita was nearly twice as big as the Empire. Reinhart himself admit admits that [[spoiler:if the Alliance'es Alliance's idealists had not been blocked by a glass ceiling, he would not have been able to beat them]]. It's actually the whole reason of Yang Yang's loyalty toward the Alliance: he claims repeatedly that the worst democraty is still better that the best dictatorship.



** As of the current ''Literature/FateOfTheJedi'' series, the Imperial Remnant (which has recently decided to start calling itself "The Empire" again, though most people don't) is led by Chief of State Jagged Fel, who was imposed on the Empire against its will during the peace after the previous series. Fel, as the dashing, handsome young leader of the Galactic Alliance's biggest ally (and fiance to Jaina Solo), is a prominent socialite on Coruscant and is constantly harassed by the paparazzi. The Moffs aren't particularly happy about the above situation. Amusingly, Fel comes off as ''less'' autocratic than the head of the supposedly democratic Galactic Alliance (itself headed by an appointed unelected Chief of State, [[AxeCrazy Natasi]] [[FemmeFatale Daala]]).

to:

** As of the current ''Literature/FateOfTheJedi'' series, [[TheRemnant the Imperial Remnant Remnant]] (which has recently decided to start calling itself "The Empire" again, though most people don't) is led by Chief of State Jagged Fel, who was imposed on the Empire against its will during the peace after the previous series. Fel, as the dashing, handsome young leader of the Galactic Alliance's biggest ally (and fiance to Jaina Solo), is a prominent socialite on Coruscant and is constantly harassed by the paparazzi. The Moffs aren't particularly happy about the above situation. Amusingly, Fel comes off as ''less'' autocratic than the head of the supposedly democratic Galactic Alliance (itself headed by an appointed unelected Chief of State, [[AxeCrazy Natasi]] [[FemmeFatale Daala]]).



* Considering the Space Opera setting of ''TabletopGame/StarRealms'', one would think the Star Empire would be this trope. After all, their focus is more on combat than the commerence-based Federation. However, the Empire faction has a benevolent emperor, and was formed to provide other worlds stronger defenses during an alien invasion. Both Empire and Federation groups are morally grey.
* Averted in ''TabletopGame/AnimaBeyondFantasy'' for the Empire of Abel during most of its existence and now inverted with the Empire of Abel and the Azur Alliance, at least on what refers to the leaders of those factions.

to:

* Considering the Space Opera SpaceOpera setting of ''TabletopGame/StarRealms'', one would think the Star Empire would be this trope. After all, their focus is more on combat than the commerence-based commerce-based Federation. However, the Empire faction has a benevolent emperor, and was formed to provide other worlds stronger defenses during an alien invasion. Both Empire and Federation groups are morally grey.
* Averted in ''TabletopGame/AnimaBeyondFantasy'' for the Empire of Abel during most of its existence and now inverted with the Empire of Abel and the Azur Alliance, at least on what refers to the leaders of those factions. factions.
* Played with in the ''Terran Empire'' setting book for the [[TabletopGame/{{Champions}} Hero System]], as said Terran Empire's entire centuries-long history from foundation to fall is covered, with several periods and rulers pushing towards or away from this trope in turn. Its fall is in fact caused by a particularly... [[TheCaligula problematic]] ruler managing to fully turn it into TheEmpire, though it takes several decades of repression, mismanagement, revolts, revolution and successive incompetent rulers before the final collapse. Usually played straighter for alien polities: the two [[TheFederation federations/republics]] are mostly benevolent, and three of the four empires are varying degrees of nasty (the one exception being the Perseid Empire, who are more of a neutral ground).



** It's actually averted in ''ShiningForceIII''. On disc I, (the only disc that came to the U.S.) you play as the Republic against the Empire and the Cultists. On disc II, you play as the Empire against the Republic and the Cultists. Disc III is when everyone realizes that the Cultists are the only real bad guys and go against them.

to:

** It's actually averted in ''ShiningForceIII''. On disc I, (the I ([[BadExportForYou the only disc that came to the U.S.) ]]), you play as the Republic against the Empire and the Cultists. On disc II, you play as the Empire against the Republic and the Cultists. Disc III is when everyone realizes that the Cultists are the only real bad guys and go against them.



* Though we don't ever see what actually happens afterwards ([[FanonDisContinuity Invisible War? What's that?]]), the democracies (and for that matter dictatorships) of the world are corrupted and failing in ''VideoGame/DeusEx''. The "best" ending is probably the one where [[spoiler:your character becomes the cybernetic God-Emperor of humanity]].

to:

* Though we don't ever see what actually happens afterwards ([[FanonDisContinuity Invisible War? What's that?]]), the democracies (and for that matter dictatorships) of the world are corrupted and failing in ''VideoGame/DeusEx''. The "best" ending is probably the one where [[spoiler:your character becomes the cybernetic God-Emperor GodEmperor of humanity]].
30th Sep '16 2:10:23 PM theNerdytimes
Is there an issue? Send a Message


This trope originates in the wake of the success of anti-monarchical revolutions, UsefulNotes/TheAmericanRevolution and UsefulNotes/TheFrenchRevolution. The American Revolution is commonly invoked as an example of brave Americans fighting for democracy and freedom from the tyrannical British monarchy. [[note]]Although, ironically, the war was a {{subversion}} of this trope, seeing as both sides were democratic: Britain was a ''constitutional'' monarchy, remember. The Americans were also backed by the absolute monarch of France UsefulNotes/LouisXVI who would invite his own revolution in turn; ''which was inspired by the very revolution he'd supported''[[/note]] The French Revolution is also portrayed like this though with greater focus on fears of mob rule, with the revolutionaries more likely to be shown as {{Well-Intentioned Extremist}}s or HeWhoFightsMonsters. In either case, neither revolutions are shown in the context of its time and place, with attention to its complexity and multiple causes. So it directly feeds into this trope's binary opposition between a Republic that is Good and an Empire or Kingdom that is Bad. What both revolutions did achieve was that it was the first time it proved that a republic can govern and rule over a large area of land, taking apart what was formerly believed to be the main argument in favor of Kingdoms, that republics were good for city states but not for large areas.

to:

This trope originates in the wake of the success of anti-monarchical revolutions, UsefulNotes/TheAmericanRevolution and UsefulNotes/TheFrenchRevolution. The American Revolution is commonly invoked as an example of brave Americans fighting for democracy and freedom from the tyrannical British monarchy. [[note]]Although, ironically, the war was a {{subversion}} of this trope, seeing as both sides were democratic: Britain was a ''constitutional'' monarchy, remember. The Americans were also backed by the absolute monarch of France UsefulNotes/LouisXVI who would invite his own revolution in turn; ''which was inspired by the very revolution he'd supported''[[/note]] The French Revolution is also portrayed like this though with greater focus on fears of mob rule, with the revolutionaries more likely to be shown as {{Well-Intentioned {{Well Intentioned Extremist}}s or HeWhoFightsMonsters. In either case, neither revolutions are shown in the context of its time and place, with attention to its complexity and multiple causes. So it directly feeds into this trope's binary opposition between a Republic that is Good and an Empire or Kingdom that is Bad. What both revolutions did achieve was that it was the first time it proved that a republic can govern and rule over a large area of land, taking apart what was formerly believed to be the main argument in favor of Kingdoms, that republics were good for city states but not for large areas.
30th Sep '16 2:10:10 PM theNerdytimes
Is there an issue? Send a Message


This trope at times can be ''so'' strong that any monarchies featured within the story (either good or evil) will be converted into democracies or republics by the story's end, just to show how superior democracy is as a form of government. These transitions nearly always happen more smoothly than they would in real life. There's no jockeying for power by TheRemnant: those who want to keep the monarchy going, the kindly prince who gracefully abdicates would never find himself a target of assassination either by enemies of his former administration or by fanatics who see him as a class-trairo, kingdoms never find themselves splitting up into smaller groups acrimoniously opposed to each other, and of course the Republic doesn't face issues concerning class, economy and wealth distribution.

This trope originates in the wake of the success of anti-monarchical revolutions, UsefulNotes/TheAmericanRevolution and UsefulNotes/TheFrenchRevolution. The American Revolution is commonly invoked as an example of brave Americans fighting for democracy and freedom from the tyrannical British monarchy. [[note]]Although, ironically, the war was a {{subversion}} of this trope, seeing as both sides were democratic: Britain was a ''constitutional'' monarchy, remember. The Americans were also backed by the absolute monarch of France UsefulNotes/LouisXVI who would invite his own revolution in turn; ''which was inspired by the very revolution he'd supported''[[/note]] The French Revolution is also portrayed like this though with greater focus on fears of mob rule, with the revolutionaries more likely to be shown as {{Well Intentioned Extremist}}s or HeWhoFightsMonsters. In either case, neither revolutions are shown in the context of its time and place, with attention to its complexity and multiple causes. So it directly feeds into this trope's binary opposition between a Republic that is Good and an Empire or Kingdom that is Bad. What both revolutions did achieve was that it was the first time it proved that a republic can govern and rule over a large area of land, taking apart what was formerly believed to be the main argument in favor of Kingdoms, that republics were good for city states but not for large areas.

to:

This trope at times can be ''so'' strong that any monarchies featured within the story (either good or evil) will be converted into democracies or republics by the story's end, just to show how superior democracy is as a form of government. These transitions nearly always happen more smoothly than they would in real life. There's no jockeying for power by TheRemnant: those who want to keep the monarchy going, the kindly prince who gracefully abdicates would never find himself a target of assassination either by enemies of his former administration or by fanatics who see him as a class-trairo, class-traitor, kingdoms never find themselves splitting up into smaller groups acrimoniously opposed to each other, and of course the Republic doesn't face issues concerning class, economy and wealth distribution.

This trope originates in the wake of the success of anti-monarchical revolutions, UsefulNotes/TheAmericanRevolution and UsefulNotes/TheFrenchRevolution. The American Revolution is commonly invoked as an example of brave Americans fighting for democracy and freedom from the tyrannical British monarchy. [[note]]Although, ironically, the war was a {{subversion}} of this trope, seeing as both sides were democratic: Britain was a ''constitutional'' monarchy, remember. The Americans were also backed by the absolute monarch of France UsefulNotes/LouisXVI who would invite his own revolution in turn; ''which was inspired by the very revolution he'd supported''[[/note]] The French Revolution is also portrayed like this though with greater focus on fears of mob rule, with the revolutionaries more likely to be shown as {{Well Intentioned {{Well-Intentioned Extremist}}s or HeWhoFightsMonsters. In either case, neither revolutions are shown in the context of its time and place, with attention to its complexity and multiple causes. So it directly feeds into this trope's binary opposition between a Republic that is Good and an Empire or Kingdom that is Bad. What both revolutions did achieve was that it was the first time it proved that a republic can govern and rule over a large area of land, taking apart what was formerly believed to be the main argument in favor of Kingdoms, that republics were good for city states but not for large areas.
4th Sep '16 4:46:01 AM Morgenthaler
Is there an issue? Send a Message


This trope often gets applied retroactively to times and places that precede UsefulNotes/TheEnlightenment. It can go as far back as TheRomanRepublic and its wars against various monarchies or the Greek city-states fighting the Persian Empire. These city-states were decidedly non-democratic by modern standards but they were held up as (admittedly flawed) models by the American Founding Fathers, the English Parliamentarians, the French Revolutionaries and, earlier, Creator/NiccoloMachiavelli. Remember the old line about [[WrittenByTheWinners winners writing history]].

to:

This trope often gets applied retroactively to times and places that precede UsefulNotes/TheEnlightenment. It can go as far back as TheRomanRepublic UsefulNotes/TheRomanRepublic and its wars against various monarchies or the Greek city-states fighting the Persian Empire. These city-states were decidedly non-democratic by modern standards but they were held up as (admittedly flawed) models by the American Founding Fathers, the English Parliamentarians, the French Revolutionaries and, earlier, Creator/NiccoloMachiavelli. Remember the old line about [[WrittenByTheWinners winners writing history]].
12th Aug '16 3:07:54 AM IHateAlmostEverything
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

* Averted in ''LightNovel/CrestOfTheStars'' where war between monarchistic Humankind Abh Empire and democratic United Humankind is shown to be the case of GreyAndGrayMorality with neither side being completely good or bad. Partially inverted with Abh Empire being ALighterShadeOfGray of this conflict.
This list shows the last 10 events of 178. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.GoodRepublicEvilEmpire