History Main / Flynning

12th Sep '17 9:40:53 PM TheBigBopper
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* Subverted in the [=PlayStation=] game ''VideoGame/BushidoBlade'', which features no health bar, and in which it's perfectly possible, with the correct timing, to win a match with a single move, often a direct thrust to the face. Subverted even more in that if you're injured, you drop to one knee and have your move list reduced to "parry" and "swing wildly". It's still possible to win a match from this position... but you don't recover for the next round. Harsh.

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* Subverted Averted in the [=PlayStation=] game ''VideoGame/BushidoBlade'', which features no health bar, and in which it's perfectly possible, with the correct timing, to win a match with a single move, often a direct thrust to the face. Subverted even more in that Furthermore, if you're injured, injured you drop to one knee and have your move list reduced to "parry" and "swing wildly". It's still possible to win a match from this position... but you don't recover for the next round. Harsh.
12th Sep '17 8:19:10 PM mariic
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* Subverted in the [=PlayStation=] game ''Bushido Blade'', which features no health bar, and in which it's perfectly possible, with the correct timing, to win a match with a single move, often a direct thrust to the face. Subverted even more in that if you're injured, you drop to one knee and have your move list reduced to "parry" and "swing wildly". It's still possible to win a match from this position... but you don't recover for the next round. Harsh.

to:

* Subverted in the [=PlayStation=] game ''Bushido Blade'', ''VideoGame/BushidoBlade'', which features no health bar, and in which it's perfectly possible, with the correct timing, to win a match with a single move, often a direct thrust to the face. Subverted even more in that if you're injured, you drop to one knee and have your move list reduced to "parry" and "swing wildly". It's still possible to win a match from this position... but you don't recover for the next round. Harsh.
6th Aug '17 4:00:06 PM VulgarBee
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* Averted in (the paper) ''OnePiece'', where swordsmen make it a clear point to go straight for the opponent's person. The only reason swordfights have any real length is because most fighters are MadeOfIron, a Determinator, or both.

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* Averted in (the paper) ''OnePiece'', ''Manga/OnePiece'', where swordsmen make it a clear point to go straight for the opponent's person. The only reason swordfights have any real length is because most fighters are MadeOfIron, a Determinator, or both.
5th Aug '17 3:15:30 PM WillKeaton
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** The Literature/XWingSeries novel ''Starfighters of Adumar'' introduced a culture that practiced semi-ritualistic [[DuelToTheDeath duels to the death]] with so-called "blastswords"[[note]]best described as a cross between a rapier and a diver's bang-stick[[/note]]. This trope was definitely not played straight; a lot of people apparently did tend to fence like this when fighting merely for sport, and fared badly when they came up against someone who was playing for keeps, even if that person has very little idea how to use a blastsword.

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** The Literature/XWingSeries novel ''Starfighters of Adumar'' introduced a culture that practiced semi-ritualistic [[DuelToTheDeath duels to the death]] with so-called "blastswords"[[note]]best "blastswords."[[note]]Best described as a cross between a rapier and a diver's bang-stick[[/note]]. bang-stick.[[/note]] This trope was definitely not played straight; a lot of people apparently did tend to fence like this when fighting merely for sport, and fared badly when they came up against someone who was playing for keeps, even if that person has very little idea how to use a blastsword.



** Sandokan provides one of the greatest example ever. When most characters [[RatedMForManly fight a tiger with a knife]], they wrestle and stab it. Sandokan simply waited the beast to jump and jumped under it while keeping the knife high, disemboweling the poor tiger. [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGQ0epxHd8I Represented perfectly in the movie version]].

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** Sandokan provides one of the greatest example ever. When most characters [[RatedMForManly fight a tiger with a knife]], they wrestle and stab it. Sandokan simply waited the beast to jump and jumped under it while keeping the knife high, disemboweling the poor tiger. [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGQ0epxHd8I Represented perfectly in the movie version]].version.]]



* In ''Series/{{Highlander}}: The Series'', this is done almost every episode. This is partly due to RuleOfCool, and partly because many of the guest stars had never before picked up a sword in their lives, so they had to rely upon Adrian Paul and the stunt coordinator to make the fights look exciting. In one commentary bit, it's mentioned that there's an easy way to tell whether the actors in a particular episode are any good with a sword: if the fight scene has a lot of cuts and changes in angle, it's done to disguise the weakness in an actor's form or to switch more capable stunt doubles in. If there are [[TheOner long periods without a cut or change in camera angle]], then it means the actors for that fight were good enough to avoid all that.\\\
FridgeBrilliance kicks in when you realize that for Immortals swordplay is very different, because they can't just stab a vital place to finish it. They need a good, heavy, unimpeded swing which can only be done after you've tired your opponent out or disarmed them. That reasoning only works for really powerful Immortals, the younger ones can be incapacitated by the same blow that would work for a human. However since very few of the Immortals seen in the show are less than a century old most of them ''have'' built up that tolerance for pain.

to:

* In ''Series/{{Highlander}}: The Series'', this is done almost every episode. This is partly due to RuleOfCool, and partly because many of the guest stars had never before picked up a sword in their lives, so they had to rely upon Adrian Paul and the stunt coordinator to make the fights look exciting. In one commentary bit, it's mentioned that there's an easy way to tell whether the actors in a particular episode are any good with a sword: if the fight scene has a lot of cuts and changes in angle, it's done to disguise the weakness in an actor's form or to switch more capable stunt doubles in. If there are [[TheOner long periods without a cut or change in camera angle]], then it means the actors for that fight were good enough to avoid all that.\\\
that.
**
FridgeBrilliance kicks in when you realize that for Immortals swordplay is very different, because they can't just stab a vital place to finish it. They need a good, heavy, unimpeded swing which can only be done after you've tired your opponent out or disarmed them. That reasoning only works for really powerful Immortals, the younger ones can be incapacitated by the same blow that would work for a human. However since very few of the Immortals seen in the show are less than a century old most of them ''have'' built up that tolerance for pain.



* ''Film/HelenOfTroy 2003'' had [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFBK-eVl76M several egregious examples, such removing one's helmet midfight, not blocking with one's shield and leaving oneself wide open, and deciding to throw one's spear from a missable distance after one's opponent has already thrown theirs at you and missed]].

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* ''Film/HelenOfTroy 2003'' had [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFBK-eVl76M several egregious examples, such removing one's helmet midfight, not blocking with one's shield and leaving oneself wide open, and deciding to throw one's spear from a missable distance after one's opponent has already thrown theirs at you and missed]].missed.]]



* Downplayed in the Star Wars-inspired lightsaber duel in ''Film/RyanVsDorkman 2''. Though there is some flynning, the choreography is especially well-done and the two fighters actually seem to be trying to hit each other instead of just clanging swords. They also put some importance on showing just how dangerous the lightsabers are. One of the best moments is when one character has another's lightsaber pinned against a wall and the 2nd character grabs the other guy's head and tries to push it into the sabers. See the fight [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RATMJ8JH1qo here]].

to:

* Downplayed in the Star Wars-inspired lightsaber duel in ''Film/RyanVsDorkman 2''. Though there is some flynning, the choreography is especially well-done and the two fighters actually seem to be trying to hit each other instead of just clanging swords. They also put some importance on showing just how dangerous the lightsabers are. One of the best moments is when one character has another's lightsaber pinned against a wall and the 2nd character grabs the other guy's head and tries to push it into the sabers. See the fight [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RATMJ8JH1qo here]].See the fight here.]]
5th Aug '17 3:13:14 PM WillKeaton
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** Commentary states that Cary Elwes (Westley) and Mandy Patinkin (Inigo) were complete novices at swordfighting, but threw themselves into the fights with a lot of energy and panache. The first time that Patinkin and Christopher Guest (Count Rugen) practiced together, Patinkin actually stabbed Guest. At that point, Guest went out to get himself some true fencing lessons, figuring that if he didn't learn how to protect himself, then Patinkin was going to wind up accidentally killing him. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9J1vC-4wTs Link]].

to:

** Commentary states that Cary Elwes (Westley) and Mandy Patinkin (Inigo) were complete novices at swordfighting, but threw themselves into the fights with a lot of energy and panache. The first time that Patinkin and Christopher Guest (Count Rugen) practiced together, Patinkin actually stabbed Guest. At that point, Guest went out to get himself some true fencing lessons, figuring that if he didn't learn how to protect himself, then Patinkin was going to wind up accidentally killing him. [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9J1vC-4wTs Link]].actually stabbed Guest.]] At that point, Guest went out to get himself some true fencing lessons, figuring that if he didn't learn how to protect himself, then Patinkin was going to wind up accidentally killing him.
31st Jul '17 7:49:10 AM rjd1922
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** [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_fencing Academic Fencing]], or the ''mensur'', is a very curious kind of fencing practiced by student corporations in certain European universities which developed during the 19th century and is still practiced today according to strict rules. Both participants wear armor that protects the exposed parts of their body, and they wear goggles that protect the eyes and nose, but the rest of the face is fair game. The swords have large hand guards, and narrow blades with sharp edges but no point. Unlike sport fencing in which the participants can advance and retreat, participants in the ''mensur'' stand their ground at a fixed distance while they exchange cuts. They may defend themselves by parrying, but dodging is not allowed. There is no score, nor is there a winner or loser; instead the object is to prove your character by putting yourself in harm's way, and to take any cuts to your face stoically without flinching. The duelling scar (''Schmisse'') on the face was worn as a badge of honor, and many upper-class Germans and Austrians before World War II had these scars on their faces.

to:

** [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_fencing Academic Fencing]], or the ''mensur'', is a very curious kind of fencing practiced by student corporations in certain European universities which developed during the 19th century and is still practiced today according to strict rules. Both participants wear armor that protects the exposed parts of their body, and they wear goggles that protect the eyes and nose, but the rest of the face is fair game. The swords have large hand guards, and narrow blades with sharp edges but no point. Unlike sport fencing in which the participants can advance and retreat, participants in the ''mensur'' stand their ground at a fixed distance while they exchange cuts. They may defend themselves by parrying, but dodging is not allowed. There is no score, nor is there a winner or loser; instead the object is to prove your character by putting yourself in harm's way, and to take any cuts to your face stoically without flinching. The duelling scar DuelingScar (''Schmisse'') on the face was worn as a badge of honor, and many upper-class Germans and Austrians before World War II had these scars on their faces.
30th Jul '17 2:09:21 PM TheBigBopper
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To keep the excitement up, and perhaps distract from the poor blade work, the characters may chase each other through all sorts of locations and environemntal perils as they fight, such as up and down marble staircases, across the tops of tables in a tavern, or along the narrow catwalks of a construction site or factory with NoOSHACompliance. By the end of it one may have the other cornered in a dead end or on the edge of a presipice, which either leads to the killing blow or results in the cornered party performing a major stunt such as a ChandelierSwing to escape. ExoticWeaponSupremacy will be in effect and DualWielding is fetishized as the mark of a superior fighter, often appearing in contexts such as Viking Age Europe where dual wielding was almost never practiced. Exotic weapons and dual wielding did actually exist in certain historical contexts, but even if they are depicted in he right time and place, [[ImprobableUseOfAWeapon don't expect to see them used with correct technique]].

Flynning exists, in live-action at least, so that non-expert actors can put on an entertaining show without causing RealLife injuries. The first problem is that most actors can't fence, and most fencers can't act. Neither skill is something you can teach someone properly in a short amount of time, and audiences are generally better at detecting wooden acting than unconvincing swordplay, so in most cases choreographers must try their best to teach people who already know how to act how to ''pretend'' they know how to fence. Usually the actors learn the sequence of moves in a fight by rote memorization without a good understanding of the underlying principles behind it. There is usually not much time to rehearse fights before filming, and with the number of behind-the-scenes moving parts that go into filming it's not uncommon for some last-minute problem to make them throw out the choreography and fall back on improvisation. This leads into the second problem: most stage and screen fights are done without hand or face protection, and the risk of accidents is compounded when everyone is an amateur. This is a big reason for SliceAndDiceSwordsmanship, since there is greater risk of accidental injury when thrusting is involved in live-action choreography, especially in theatre. Actors make their living with their bodies, and any injury that blemishes their appearance or forces them to take time off to recover can be ruinous for their career. The more famous a star, the more expensive they are to insure, and both the insurance companies and the actors' managers will throw a fit if you let them do something they consider too dangerous. There are stunt doubles for productions that can afford it, but with the amount of dialogue and acting that go into these scenes there's only so much an impostor can get away with. With all of these things in mind, it's all too understandible that the choreographer would sacrifice realism in order to minimize the risk of injury. Awkward prop weapons and costumes can be hard to work with too, and sometimes an important actor has some injury or disability that has to be covered up with Flynning.

to:

To keep the excitement up, and perhaps sometimes to distract from the poor blade work, the characters may chase each other through all sorts of locations and environemntal perils as they fight, such as up and down marble staircases, across the tops of tables in a tavern, or along the narrow catwalks of a construction site or factory with NoOSHACompliance. By the end of it one may have the other cornered in a dead end or on the edge of a presipice, which either leads to the killing blow or results in the cornered party performing a major stunt such as a ChandelierSwing to escape. ExoticWeaponSupremacy will be in effect and DualWielding is fetishized as the mark of a superior fighter, often appearing in contexts such as Viking Age Europe where dual wielding was almost never practiced. Exotic weapons and dual wielding did actually exist in certain historical contexts, but even if they are depicted in he right time and place, [[ImprobableUseOfAWeapon don't expect to see them used with correct technique]].

Flynning exists, in live-action at least, so that non-expert actors can put on an entertaining show without causing RealLife injuries. The first problem is that most actors can't fence, and most fencers can't act. Neither skill is something you can teach someone properly in a short amount of time, and audiences are generally better at detecting wooden acting than unconvincing swordplay, so in most cases choreographers must try their best to teach people who already know how to act how to ''pretend'' they know how to fence. Usually the actors learn the sequence of moves in a fight by rote memorization without a good understanding of the underlying principles behind it. There is usually not much time to rehearse fights before filming, and with the number of behind-the-scenes moving parts that go into filming it's not uncommon for some last-minute problem to make them throw out the choreography and fall back on improvisation.

This leads into the second problem: most stage and screen fights are done without hand or face protection, and the risk of accidents is compounded when everyone is an amateur. This is a big reason for SliceAndDiceSwordsmanship, since there is greater risk of accidental injury when thrusting is involved in live-action choreography, especially in theatre. Actors make their living with their bodies, and any injury that blemishes their appearance or forces them to take time off to recover can be ruinous for their career. The more famous a star, the more expensive they are to insure, and both the insurance companies and the actors' managers will throw a fit if you let them do something they consider too dangerous. There are stunt doubles for productions that can afford it, but with the amount of dialogue and acting that go into these scenes there's only so much an impostor can get away with. With all of these things in mind, it's all too understandible that the choreographer would sacrifice realism in order to minimize the risk of injury. Awkward prop weapons and costumes can be hard to work with too, and sometimes an important actor has some injury or disability that has to be covered up with Flynning.
30th Jul '17 2:06:43 PM TheBigBopper
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Even when you factor out the problems of live actors, Flynning still has its uses. Real combat involving swords tended to be gory and violent, usually resulting in nasty bloody wounds and body parts being chopped off. That isn't gonna fly with the {{Media Watchdog}}s and Network Censors, [[ThinkOfTheChildren especially in the case of works geared toward children]], so you end up with fights where swords clash but nobody dies. Another issue is that the goal of practical swordsmanship is to take the shortest possible sequence of moves that leads to your opponent being dead and you being unharmed, and it doesn't have to look flashy if it works. In contrast, a choreographer often has to contrive a way for a fight to be as drawn out and flashy as possible, all while keeping the action comprehensible to the audience. Many highly effective real life techniques are either BoringButPractical, subtle enough that average audience members wouldn't understand what they were seeing, or so effective that they would make a dramatic duel end in a premature {{anticlimax}}. We also can't ignore the fact that a lot of cartoons and {{anime}} depend on LimitedAnimation so they can be produced quickly and cheaply, and it's much easier to put together a repetitive loop of two characters whacking their blades against each other than to fully animate a sequence of unique attacks and counters.

to:

Even when you factor out the problems of live actors, Flynning still has its uses. Real combat involving swords tended to be gory and violent, usually resulting in nasty bloody wounds and body parts being chopped off. That isn't gonna fly with the {{Media Watchdog}}s and Network Censors, [[ThinkOfTheChildren especially in the case of works geared toward children]], so you end up with fights where swords clash but nobody dies. Another issue is that the goal of practical swordsmanship is to take the shortest possible sequence of moves that leads to your opponent being dead or incapacitated and you being unharmed, and it doesn't have to look flashy if it works. In contrast, a choreographer often has to contrive a way for a fight to be as drawn out and flashy as possible, all while keeping the action comprehensible to the audience. Many highly effective real life techniques are either BoringButPractical, subtle enough that average audience members wouldn't understand what they were seeing, or so effective that they would make a dramatic duel end in a premature {{anticlimax}}. We also can't ignore the fact that a lot of cartoons and {{anime}} depend on LimitedAnimation so they can be produced quickly and cheaply, and it's much easier to put together a repetitive loop of two characters whacking their blades against each other than to fully animate a sequence of unique attacks and counters.
30th Jul '17 2:04:22 PM TheBigBopper
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Flynning exists, in live-action at least, so that non-expert actors can put on an entertaining show without causing RealLife injuries. The first problem is that most actors can't fence, and most fencers can't act. Neither skill is something you can teach someone properly in a short amount of time, and audiences are generally better at detecting wooden acting than unconvincing swordplay, so in most cases choreographers must try their best to teach people who already know how to act how to ''pretend'' they know how to fence. Usually the actors learn the sequence of moves in a fight by rote memorization without a good understanding of the underlying principles behind it. There is usually not much time to rehearse fights before filming, and with the number of behind-the-scenes moving parts that go into filming it's not uncommon for some last-minute problem to make them throw out the choreography and fall back on improvisation. This leads into the second problem: most stage and screen fights are done without hand or face protection, and the risk of accidents is compounded when everyone is an amateur. Actors make their living with their bodies, and any injury that blemishes their appearance or forces them to take time off to recover can be ruinous for their career. The more famous a star, the more expensive they are to insure, and both the insurance companies and the actors' managers will throw a fit if you let them do something they consider too dangerous. There are stunt doubles for productions that can afford it, but with the amount of dialogue and acting that go into these scenes there's only so much an impostor can get away with. With all of these things in mind, it's all too understandible that the choreographer would sacrifice realism in order to minimize the risk of injury. Awkward prop weapons and costumes can be hard to work with too, and sometimes an important actor has some injury or disability that has to be covered up with Flynning.

to:

Flynning exists, in live-action at least, so that non-expert actors can put on an entertaining show without causing RealLife injuries. The first problem is that most actors can't fence, and most fencers can't act. Neither skill is something you can teach someone properly in a short amount of time, and audiences are generally better at detecting wooden acting than unconvincing swordplay, so in most cases choreographers must try their best to teach people who already know how to act how to ''pretend'' they know how to fence. Usually the actors learn the sequence of moves in a fight by rote memorization without a good understanding of the underlying principles behind it. There is usually not much time to rehearse fights before filming, and with the number of behind-the-scenes moving parts that go into filming it's not uncommon for some last-minute problem to make them throw out the choreography and fall back on improvisation. This leads into the second problem: most stage and screen fights are done without hand or face protection, and the risk of accidents is compounded when everyone is an amateur. This is a big reason for SliceAndDiceSwordsmanship, since there is greater risk of accidental injury when thrusting is involved in live-action choreography, especially in theatre. Actors make their living with their bodies, and any injury that blemishes their appearance or forces them to take time off to recover can be ruinous for their career. The more famous a star, the more expensive they are to insure, and both the insurance companies and the actors' managers will throw a fit if you let them do something they consider too dangerous. There are stunt doubles for productions that can afford it, but with the amount of dialogue and acting that go into these scenes there's only so much an impostor can get away with. With all of these things in mind, it's all too understandible that the choreographer would sacrifice realism in order to minimize the risk of injury. Awkward prop weapons and costumes can be hard to work with too, and sometimes an important actor has some injury or disability that has to be covered up with Flynning.
29th Jul '17 7:58:50 AM ZarbiNerada
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Added DiffLines:

* The Bishop is inclined to do this in ''VideoGame/BattleChess''. It [[WhyDontYaJustShootHim costs him big time]] when jumped by the King.
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