History Main / Flynning

12th Dec '17 8:22:57 PM TheBigBopper
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Even when you factor out the problems of live actors, Flynning still has its uses. Real combat involving swords tended to be gory and violent, usually resulting in nasty bloody wounds and body parts being chopped off. That isn't gonna fly with the {{Media Watchdog}}s and Network Censors, [[ThinkOfTheChildren especially in the case of works geared toward children]], so you end up with fights where swords clash but nobody dies. Another issue is that the goal of practical swordsmanship is to take the shortest possible sequence of moves that leads to your opponent being dead or incapacitated and you being unharmed, and it doesn't necessarily have to look flashy as long as it works. In contrast, a choreographer often has to contrive various ways for a fight to be as drawn out and flashy as possible, all while keeping the action comprehensible to the audience. Many highly effective real life techniques are either BoringButPractical, so subtle or fleeting that average audience members wouldn't be able to understand what they were seeing, or so direct and effective that they would make a hyped-up fight scene end in a premature {{anticlimax}} if they were actually employed in the appropriate situation. We also can't ignore the fact that a lot of cartoons and {{anime}} depend on LimitedAnimation so they can be produced quickly and cheaply, and it's much easier to put together a repetitive loop of two characters whacking their blades against each other than to fully animate a sequence of unique attacks and counters. Finally, there is simply the fact that most writers, artists, and animators don't know how to fence, and if they do seek out advice it will often be from the same choreographers and stuntpersons who serve theater, film, and television. Thus, the same Flynning moves tend to show up across all kinds of media.

to:

Even when you factor out the problems of live actors, Flynning still has its uses. Real combat involving swords tended to be gory and violent, usually resulting in nasty bloody wounds and body parts being chopped off. That isn't gonna fly with the {{Media Watchdog}}s and Network Censors, [[ThinkOfTheChildren especially in the case of works geared toward children]], so you end up with fights where swords clash but nobody dies. Another issue is that the goal of practical swordsmanship is to take the shortest possible sequence of moves that leads to your opponent being dead or incapacitated and you being unharmed, and it doesn't necessarily have to look flashy impressive as long as it works. In contrast, a choreographer often has to contrive various ways for a fight to be as drawn out and flashy as possible, all while keeping the action comprehensible to the audience. Many highly effective real life techniques are either BoringButPractical, so subtle or fleeting that average audience members wouldn't be able to understand what they were seeing, or so direct and effective that they would make a hyped-up fight scene end in a premature {{anticlimax}} if they were actually employed in the appropriate situation. We also can't ignore the fact that a lot of cartoons and {{anime}} depend on LimitedAnimation so they can be produced quickly and cheaply, and it's much easier to put together a repetitive loop of two characters whacking their blades against each other than to fully animate a sequence of unique attacks and counters. Finally, there is simply the fact that most writers, artists, and animators don't know how to fence, and if they do seek out advice it will often be from the same choreographers and stuntpersons who serve theater, film, and television. Thus, the same Flynning moves tend to show up across all kinds of media.
12th Dec '17 8:22:25 PM TheBigBopper
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Even when you factor out the problems of live actors, Flynning still has its uses. Real combat involving swords tended to be gory and violent, usually resulting in nasty bloody wounds and body parts being chopped off. That isn't gonna fly with the {{Media Watchdog}}s and Network Censors, [[ThinkOfTheChildren especially in the case of works geared toward children]], so you end up with fights where swords clash but nobody dies. Another issue is that the goal of practical swordsmanship is to take the shortest possible sequence of moves that leads to your opponent being dead or incapacitated and you being unharmed, and it doesn't have to look flashy if it works. In contrast, a choreographer often has to contrive various ways for a fight to be as drawn out and flashy as possible, all while keeping the action comprehensible to the audience. Many highly effective real life techniques are either BoringButPractical, subtle enough that average audience members wouldn't be able to understand what they were seeing, or so direct and effective that they would make a dramatic duel end in a premature {{anticlimax}} if they were actually employed in the appropriate situation. We also can't ignore the fact that a lot of cartoons and {{anime}} depend on LimitedAnimation so they can be produced quickly and cheaply, and it's much easier to put together a repetitive loop of two characters whacking their blades against each other than to fully animate a sequence of unique attacks and counters. Finally, there is simply the fact that most writers, artists, and animators don't know how to fence, and if they do seek out advice it will often be from the same choreographers and stuntpersons who serve theater, film, and television. Thus, the same Flynning moves tend to show up across all kinds of media.

to:

Even when you factor out the problems of live actors, Flynning still has its uses. Real combat involving swords tended to be gory and violent, usually resulting in nasty bloody wounds and body parts being chopped off. That isn't gonna fly with the {{Media Watchdog}}s and Network Censors, [[ThinkOfTheChildren especially in the case of works geared toward children]], so you end up with fights where swords clash but nobody dies. Another issue is that the goal of practical swordsmanship is to take the shortest possible sequence of moves that leads to your opponent being dead or incapacitated and you being unharmed, and it doesn't necessarily have to look flashy if as long as it works. In contrast, a choreographer often has to contrive various ways for a fight to be as drawn out and flashy as possible, all while keeping the action comprehensible to the audience. Many highly effective real life techniques are either BoringButPractical, so subtle enough or fleeting that average audience members wouldn't be able to understand what they were seeing, or so direct and effective that they would make a dramatic duel hyped-up fight scene end in a premature {{anticlimax}} if they were actually employed in the appropriate situation. We also can't ignore the fact that a lot of cartoons and {{anime}} depend on LimitedAnimation so they can be produced quickly and cheaply, and it's much easier to put together a repetitive loop of two characters whacking their blades against each other than to fully animate a sequence of unique attacks and counters. Finally, there is simply the fact that most writers, artists, and animators don't know how to fence, and if they do seek out advice it will often be from the same choreographers and stuntpersons who serve theater, film, and television. Thus, the same Flynning moves tend to show up across all kinds of media.
12th Dec '17 8:14:17 PM TheBigBopper
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Flynning exists, in live-action at least, so that non-expert actors can put on an entertaining show without causing RealLife injuries. The first problem is that most actors can't fence, and most fencers can't act. Neither skill is something you can teach someone properly in a short amount of time, and audiences are more likely to recognize and be bothered by wooden acting than unconvincing swordplay, so in most cases choreographers must try their best to teach people who already know how to act how to ''pretend'' they know how to fence. Usually the actors learn the sequence of moves in a fight by rote without a good understanding of the underlying principles behind them. There is usually little time to rehearse fights before filming, and with the number of behind-the-scenes moving parts that go into filming it's not uncommon for some last-minute problem to make them throw out the choreography and fall back on improvisation.

to:

Flynning exists, in live-action at least, so that non-expert actors can put on an entertaining show without causing RealLife injuries. The first problem is that most actors can't fence, and most fencers can't act. Neither skill is something you can teach someone properly in a short amount of time, and audiences are more likely to recognize and (and be bothered by by) wooden acting than unconvincing swordplay, so in most cases choreographers must try their best to teach people who already know how to act how to ''pretend'' they know how to fence. Usually the actors learn the sequence of moves in a fight by rote without a good understanding of the underlying principles behind them. There is usually little time to rehearse fights before filming, and with the number of behind-the-scenes moving parts that go into filming it's not uncommon for some last-minute problem to make them throw out the choreography and fall back on improvisation.
12th Dec '17 8:05:03 PM TheBigBopper
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Flynning exists, in live-action at least, so that non-expert actors can put on an entertaining show without causing RealLife injuries. The first problem is that most actors can't fence, and most fencers can't act. Neither skill is something you can teach someone properly in a short amount of time, and audiences are generally better at detecting wooden acting than unconvincing swordplay, so in most cases choreographers must try their best to teach people who already know how to act how to ''pretend'' they know how to fence. Usually the actors learn the sequence of moves in a fight by rote without a good understanding of the underlying principles behind them. There is usually little time to rehearse fights before filming, and with the number of behind-the-scenes moving parts that go into filming it's not uncommon for some last-minute problem to make them throw out the choreography and fall back on improvisation.

to:

Flynning exists, in live-action at least, so that non-expert actors can put on an entertaining show without causing RealLife injuries. The first problem is that most actors can't fence, and most fencers can't act. Neither skill is something you can teach someone properly in a short amount of time, and audiences are generally better at detecting more likely to recognize and be bothered by wooden acting than unconvincing swordplay, so in most cases choreographers must try their best to teach people who already know how to act how to ''pretend'' they know how to fence. Usually the actors learn the sequence of moves in a fight by rote without a good understanding of the underlying principles behind them. There is usually little time to rehearse fights before filming, and with the number of behind-the-scenes moving parts that go into filming it's not uncommon for some last-minute problem to make them throw out the choreography and fall back on improvisation.
9th Dec '17 8:40:35 AM fearlessnikki
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Added DiffLines:

* Justified in ''{{Film/Paddington 2}}'' when used by the villain Phoenix - since he himself is a stage actor.
--> "Stage combat, level 4!"
* ''{{Film/Centurion}}'', despite its historical accuracy in other parts, features a lot of this. For the protagonist Quintus Dias, it's justified, as his father was a gladiator. The other characters? Not so much.


Added DiffLines:

* ''Series/SpartacusBloodAndSand'' plays it straight in the first season - with lots of stylised and elaborate movements in the gladiators' fights. But then subverts it in the second season - when the gladiators have to rescue someone from the mines and discover that their fighting style is not practical in such a confined space.
30th Nov '17 12:13:38 AM TheBigBopper
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A lot of Flynning entries will be written by people who know and care ''a lot'' more about swordsmanship than the average person, and therefore can tend toward being critical and nitpicky. TropesAreTools, however, and Flynning is not necessarily a "bad" trope: it's just that it comes out of a real-life safety concern that makes it difficult to show the full range of historical combat techniques, and it's often used as a crutch to cover up for a lack of time, money, or expertise. A significant number of fencing snobs can still acknowledge even fights that aren't technically realistic as great pieces of storytelling, and they will almost always appreciate when a production goes above and beyond to train the actors or to incorporate a cool move that has some historical plausibility. At their best, Flynning and stage combat can be like real swordsmanship filtered through RuleOfCool. Certified choreographers and stunt people can get up to absurdly high levels of skill, and help to create fight scenes in which there's something for everyone to enjoy.

to:

A lot of Flynning entries will be written by people who know and care ''a lot'' more about swordsmanship than the average person, and therefore can tend toward being critical and nitpicky. TropesAreTools, however, and Flynning is not necessarily a "bad" trope: it's just that it comes out of a real-life safety concern that makes it difficult to show the full range of historical combat techniques, and it's often used as a crutch to cover up for a lack of time, money, or expertise. A significant number of fencing snobs can still acknowledge even fights that aren't technically realistic as great pieces of storytelling, and they will almost always appreciate when a production goes above and beyond to train the actors or to incorporate a cool move that has some historical plausibility. At their best, Flynning and stage combat can be like real swordsmanship filtered through RuleOfCool. Certified choreographers and stunt people can get up to absurdly high levels of skill, and help to create fight scenes in which there's something for everyone everybody to enjoy.
30th Nov '17 12:12:45 AM TheBigBopper
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This leads into the second problem: most stage and screen fights are done without hand or face protection, and the risk of accidents is compounded when everyone is an amateur. This is a big reason for SliceAndDiceSwordsmanship, since there is greater risk of accidental injury when thrusting is involved. Actors depend on their bodies to make a living, and any kind of disabling or disfiguring injury can be ruinous for their careers. The more famous a star, the more expensive they are to insure, and both the insurance companies and the actors' managers will throw a fit if you let them do something they consider too dangerous. There are stunt doubles for productions that can afford it, but with the amount of dialogue and acting that go into these swordfight scenes, any shots where you can clearly see the characters' faces will still have to use their real actors. Live theater presents the most chances for injury since the actors have to perform the whole fight in one "take", as well as personally reenact the whole thing on every night of the production's run. And in live theater you can pretty much forget about stunt doubles. With all of these things in mind, it's all too understandable that the choreographer would sacrifice realism in order to minimize the risk of injury. Awkward prop weapons and costumes can be hard to work with too, and sometimes an important actor has some injury or disability that has to be covered up with Flynning.

to:

This leads into the second problem: most stage and screen fights are done without hand or face protection, and the risk of accidents is compounded when everyone is an amateur. This is a big reason for SliceAndDiceSwordsmanship, since there is greater risk of accidental injury when thrusting is involved. Actors depend on their bodies to make a living, and any kind of disabling or disfiguring injury can be ruinous for their careers. The more famous a star, the more expensive they are to insure, and both the insurance companies and the actors' managers will throw a fit if you let them do something they consider too dangerous. There are stunt doubles for productions that can afford it, but with the amount of dialogue and acting that go into these swordfight scenes, any shots where you can clearly see the characters' faces will still have to use their real actors. Live theater presents the most chances for injury injury, since the actors have to perform the whole fight in one "take", "take" as well as personally reenact the whole thing on every night of the production's run. And in live theater you can pretty much forget about stunt doubles. With all of these things in mind, it's all too understandable that the choreographer would sacrifice realism in order to minimize the risk of injury. Awkward prop weapons and costumes can be hard to work with too, and sometimes an important actor has some injury or disability that has to be covered up with Flynning.
30th Nov '17 12:05:48 AM TheBigBopper
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The classic {{sword|Fight}}play of {{Swashbuckl|er}}ing {{movies}}: Threaten high countered by parry high, threaten low countered by parry low, lather, rinse and repeat as you climb the spiral tower staircase, until the hero can drive his sword through the villain's heart. It looks exciting, and the "tink-tink-tink" of sword tips clashing has become so [[TheCoconutEffect familiar to the ear]] over the decades that this is what most people think of when they try and imagine a "sword fight".

to:

The classic {{sword|Fight}}play of {{Swashbuckl|er}}ing {{movies}}: Threaten high countered by parry high, threaten low countered by parry low, lather, rinse and repeat as you climb the spiral tower staircase, until the hero can drive his sword through the villain's heart. It looks exciting, and the "tink-tink-tink" of sword tips clashing has become so [[TheCoconutEffect familiar to the ear]] over the decades that this is what most people would think of when they try and if you asked them to imagine a "sword fight".
30th Nov '17 12:04:49 AM TheBigBopper
Is there an issue? Send a Message


The classic {{sword|Fight}}play of {{Swashbuckl|er}}ing {{movies}}: Threaten high countered by parry high, threaten low countered by parry low, lather, rinse and repeat as you climb the spiral tower staircase, until the hero can drive his sword through the villain's heart. It looks exciting, and the "tink-tink-tink" of sword tips clashing has become so [[TheCoconutEffect familiar to the ear]] over the decades that this is what most people imagine when they think of a "sword fight".

to:

The classic {{sword|Fight}}play of {{Swashbuckl|er}}ing {{movies}}: Threaten high countered by parry high, threaten low countered by parry low, lather, rinse and repeat as you climb the spiral tower staircase, until the hero can drive his sword through the villain's heart. It looks exciting, and the "tink-tink-tink" of sword tips clashing has become so [[TheCoconutEffect familiar to the ear]] over the decades that this is what most people imagine think of when they think of try and imagine a "sword fight".
30th Nov '17 12:04:05 AM TheBigBopper
Is there an issue? Send a Message


The classic {{sword|Fight}}play of {{Swashbuckl|er}}ing {{movies}}: Threaten high countered by parry high, threaten low countered by parry low, lather, rinse and repeat as you climb the spiral tower staircase, until the hero can drive his sword through the villain's heart. It looks exciting, and the "tink-tink-tink" of sword tips clashing has become so [[TheCoconutEffect familiar to the ear]] over the decades that this is what most people think of when they think of a "sword fight".

to:

The classic {{sword|Fight}}play of {{Swashbuckl|er}}ing {{movies}}: Threaten high countered by parry high, threaten low countered by parry low, lather, rinse and repeat as you climb the spiral tower staircase, until the hero can drive his sword through the villain's heart. It looks exciting, and the "tink-tink-tink" of sword tips clashing has become so [[TheCoconutEffect familiar to the ear]] over the decades that this is what most people think of imagine when they think of a "sword fight".
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