History Main / FlyNning

4th Apr '18 7:01:14 AM jormis29
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** The lightsaber battles from the original trilogy, dubbed "budget kendo" in some circles. The original idea behind the lightsabers was that they were difficult to handle, which limited their choreography to mostly slashes and parries. There were technical limitations involved as well as skill limitations. Every duel in the Original Trilogy involves Darth Vader. In ''Film/ANewHope'', the Vader mask left actor David Prowse with such a restricted field of view that he had trouble even seeing ''the person'' he was dueling with, never mind trying to fight. The props themselves were also fragile, preventing the use of more aggressive and intense strikes. For ''Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack'' and ''Film/ReturnOfTheJedi'', the fighting was done by fencer and choreographer Bob Anderson, who was much better at it, and the props were sturdier, but he still had difficulty seeing.

to:

** The lightsaber battles from the original trilogy, dubbed "budget kendo" in some circles. The original idea behind the lightsabers was that they were difficult to handle, which limited their choreography to mostly slashes and parries. There were technical limitations involved as well as skill limitations. Every duel in the Original Trilogy involves Darth Vader. In ''Film/ANewHope'', the Vader mask left actor David Prowse Creator/DavidProwse with such a restricted field of view that he had trouble even seeing ''the person'' he was dueling with, never mind trying to fight. The props themselves were also fragile, preventing the use of more aggressive and intense strikes. For ''Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack'' and ''Film/ReturnOfTheJedi'', the fighting was done by fencer and choreographer Bob Anderson, who was much better at it, and the props were sturdier, but he still had difficulty seeing.
20th Mar '18 5:21:49 PM TheBigBopper
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Flynning exists, in live-action at least, so that non-expert actors can put on an entertaining show without causing RealLife injuries. The first problem is that most actors can't fence, and most fencers can't act. Neither skill is something you can teach someone properly in a short amount of time, and audiences are more likely to recognize (and be bothered by) wooden acting than unconvincing swordplay, so in most cases choreographers must try their best to teach people who already know how to act how to ''pretend'' they know how to fence. Usually the actors learn the sequence of moves in a fight by rote without a good understanding of the underlying principles behind them. There is usually little time to rehearse fights before filming, and with the number of behind-the-scenes moving parts that go into filming it's not uncommon for some last-minute problem to make them throw out the choreography and fall back on improvisation.

to:

Flynning exists, in live-action at least, so that non-expert actors can put on an entertaining show without causing RealLife injuries. The first problem is that most actors can't aren't trained to fence, and most fencers can't aren't trained to act. Neither skill is something you can teach someone properly in a short amount of time, and audiences are more likely to recognize (and be bothered by) wooden acting than unconvincing swordplay, so in most cases choreographers must try their best to teach people who already know how to act how to ''pretend'' they know how to fence. Usually the actors learn the sequence of moves in a fight by rote without a good understanding of the underlying principles behind them. There is usually little time to rehearse fights before filming, and with the number of behind-the-scenes moving parts that go into filming it's not uncommon for some last-minute problem to make them throw out the choreography and fall back on improvisation.
20th Mar '18 3:34:37 PM nombretomado
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%%* {{Egregious}}ly [[note]][[DrinkingGame/TVTropes Drink!]][[/note]] used in ''Film/{{Spartacus}}''.

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%%* {{Egregious}}ly JustForFun/{{Egregious}}ly [[note]][[DrinkingGame/TVTropes Drink!]][[/note]] used in ''Film/{{Spartacus}}''.
5th Mar '18 9:35:07 AM CosmicFerret
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* The brief stickfight between Adams and Dickinson in ''[[SeventeenSeventySix 1776]]'' is rather unconvincing Flynning when it's not just the two men grappling.

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* The brief stickfight between Adams and Dickinson in ''[[SeventeenSeventySix ''[[Film/SeventeenSeventySix 1776]]'' is rather unconvincing Flynning when it's not just the two men grappling.
4th Mar '18 3:49:47 AM jormis29
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** The Disney TV Version of ''Series/{{Zorro}}'' in the 1950s somewhat Downplayed it as well, as Guy Williams, who played {{Franchise/Zorro}}, was actually a champion fencer. His Zorro used a more accurate fencing style, though still stylized to avoid injury.

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** The Disney TV Version of ''Series/{{Zorro}}'' in the 1950s somewhat Downplayed it as well, as Guy Williams, Creator/GuyWilliams, who played {{Franchise/Zorro}}, was actually a champion fencer. His Zorro used a more accurate fencing style, though still stylized to avoid injury.
19th Feb '18 12:57:38 AM Jormungar
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** The lightsaber battles from the original trilogy, dubbed "budget kendo" in some circles. The original idea behind the lightsabers was that they were difficult to handle, which limited their choreography to mostly slashes and parries. There were technical limitations involved as well as skill limitations. Every duel in the Original Trilogy involves Darth Vader. In ''Film/ANewHope'', the Vader mask left actor David Prowse with such a restricted field of view that he had trouble even ''seeing'' the person he was dueling with, never mind trying to fight. The props themselves were also fragile, preventing the use of more aggressive and intense strikes. For ''Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack'' and ''Film/ReturnOfTheJedi'', the fighting was done by fencer and choreographer Bob Anderson, who was much better at it, and the props were sturdier, but he still had difficulty seeing.

to:

** The lightsaber battles from the original trilogy, dubbed "budget kendo" in some circles. The original idea behind the lightsabers was that they were difficult to handle, which limited their choreography to mostly slashes and parries. There were technical limitations involved as well as skill limitations. Every duel in the Original Trilogy involves Darth Vader. In ''Film/ANewHope'', the Vader mask left actor David Prowse with such a restricted field of view that he had trouble even ''seeing'' the person seeing ''the person'' he was dueling with, never mind trying to fight. The props themselves were also fragile, preventing the use of more aggressive and intense strikes. For ''Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack'' and ''Film/ReturnOfTheJedi'', the fighting was done by fencer and choreographer Bob Anderson, who was much better at it, and the props were sturdier, but he still had difficulty seeing.
6th Feb '18 4:34:19 PM nombretomado
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* Averted in ''Film/TheThreeMusketeers1973'' and its sequel, 'The Four Musketeers': Not only was the swordplay highly realistic (with moves like grabbing the opponent's blade, and hitting them with one's cloak), but all the stars were trained swordsmen. Creator/ChristopherLee admitted in an interview that he had to remind OliverReed during one of their fights that he wasn't really trying to kill him. It didn't help that the swords they used weren't foils.

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* Averted in ''Film/TheThreeMusketeers1973'' and its sequel, 'The Four Musketeers': Not only was the swordplay highly realistic (with moves like grabbing the opponent's blade, and hitting them with one's cloak), but all the stars were trained swordsmen. Creator/ChristopherLee admitted in an interview that he had to remind OliverReed Creator/OliverReed during one of their fights that he wasn't really trying to kill him. It didn't help that the swords they used weren't foils.
21st Jan '18 7:10:14 PM TheBigBopper
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* Any sword fight that has rules to prevent injury or that is scored as a competition is almost flynning by definition; the only question--and it is a controversial question--is to what degree it does or doesn't simulate a real sword fight. Obviously, even students training for real combat cannot learn or practice under the same conditions as an actual bloody fight, or else they would get maimed or killed before they even attained proficiency. You have to watch their practice and make sure they aren't trying to kill each other, that they learn to respect the blade and aren't doing things like eye-gouging and biting. In that sense, the first defense against injury is voluntary restraint and control. Blunt and foiled swords were the first compromise in equipment to improve safety, and already this creates a huge difference in how the fencers will behave in sparring, because they will be a ''heck'' of a lot more cautious and less prone to being LeeroyJenkins if they know their opponent's sword can wound them. Then you introduce things like masks and padded armor, which almost inevitably lead to more reckless tactics since the fear of injury is lessened--although the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation#Peltzman_effect Peltzman effect]] can ironically lead to ''more'' injury when the fighters learn to rely on the armor instead of self-control and start hitting each other as hard as they can. Add rules against grappling, right-of-way, designated target areas, and before you know it it's a slippery slope.

to:

* Any sword fight that has rules to prevent injury or that is scored as a competition is almost a downplayed version of flynning almost by definition; the only question--and it is a controversial question--is to what degree it does or doesn't simulate a real sword fight. Obviously, even students training for real combat cannot learn or practice under the same conditions as an actual bloody fight, or else they would get maimed or killed before they even attained proficiency. You have to watch their practice and make sure they aren't trying to kill each other, that they learn to respect the blade and aren't doing things like eye-gouging and biting. In that sense, the first defense against injury is voluntary restraint and control. Blunt and foiled swords were the first compromise in equipment to improve safety, and already this creates a huge difference in how the fencers will behave in sparring, because they will be a ''heck'' of a lot more cautious and less prone to being LeeroyJenkins if they know their opponent's sword can wound them. Then you introduce things like masks and padded armor, which almost inevitably lead to more reckless tactics since the fear of injury is lessened--although the [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation#Peltzman_effect Peltzman effect]] can ironically lead to ''more'' injury when the fighters learn to rely on the armor instead of self-control and start hitting each other as hard as they can. Add rules against grappling, right-of-way, designated target areas, and before you know it it's a slippery slope.
21st Jan '18 7:08:12 PM TheBigBopper
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** The Olympic sport of fencing has steadily evolved away from its origins in dueling, to the point where it can no longer be said to teach you how to properly defend yourself with a sword. While it can be a good foundation for learning historical or classical fencing later on because it teaches many important fundamentals, and saying it isn't a martial art isn't meant to deny the athleticism and skill involved, you won't learn how to avoid injury if you're just training for the Olympics. In order to make practice safer, the weapons have become much lighter and more flexible so that they no longer behave like the weapons they were originally supposed to simulate. The "[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flick_(fencing) flick]]" in foil is basically flicking your blade so that the tip curves around your opponent's parry and touches them at an angle, a move which is impossible using a real, stiff sword and which is highly controversial because some consider it cheating. A similar phenomeonon in saber is called "whip-over", and these days because of electronic scoring a sabreur can hit with the flat of the blade rather than the forward or reverse edge and it still counts. There are also various rules that in theory are supposed to ensure that the fencers use sound principles of defense and need to score clean hits that would draw blood if the swords were real, but in practice the need to score points creates perverse incentives for all kinds of behavior that would be suicidal in a real fight. Right of way is supposed to encourage fencers to attack first instead of just cowering at each other, and to make sure that the fencer being attacked has to successfully defend before launching the attack on his own (in order to avoid double-hits), but this can lead to attackers becoming reckless in a way they wouldn't be if there wasn't right of way. Electronic scoring, which we've already mentioned, was introduced in order to prevent the subjectivity of the judges from messing up a call, and in that regard it was definitely an improvement. However, this has made the distinction between square and glancing hits with the thrust weapons harder to measure, and introduces the problem of cut-out times. The cut-out time is the maximum time between hits for the scoring mechanism to register them as simultaneous, and if that time is exceeded then only the first hit to land will count. In ''épée'' this cut-out time is a mere 40 milliseconds, meaning that a second hit landing even a little outside this window would still appear to be practically simultaneous with the first, yet only the first hit would register. In 2004-5, the foil cut-out time was reduced to 350 milliseconds and saber to 120 milliseconds. The cut-out time results in a lot of double-hits and difficulty for the referees, and an unreasonable advantage for the attacker. This is a grossly oversimplified look at complex problems which are SeriousBusiness to people in the fencing world, and they are unlikely to ever be solved to everyone's satisfaction since any attempt to correct a problem seems to create a problem of its own.
** Kendo has similarly developed into a de-fanged version of its martial ancestor ''UsefulNotes/{{Kenjutsu}}''. Around the beginning of the 18th century, practitioners began making various concessions to safety: the lighter and more flexible bamboo practice sword (''shinai'') replaced the solid hardwood ''[[WoodenKatanasAreEvenBetter bokuto]]'' formerly used in sword practice, and protective armor (''bogu'') started to be worn. Especially since its revival after World War II it has been explicitly defined as an activity for self-cultivation rather than training for combat, while ''kenjutsu'' and other forms of ''koryuu'' carry on the older martial legacy. In modern kendo, there are four designated target areas: cuts may be made to the wrists, head, or body, and thrusts may only be aimed at the throat. Also, because of the specific rules, the guards ''chudan'', ''jodan'', and ''seigan'' dominate while ''hasso'', ''gedan'', and ''waki'' have fallen out of use.

to:

** The Olympic sport of fencing has steadily evolved away from its origins in 19th century dueling, to the point where it can no longer be said to teach you how to properly defend yourself with a sword. While it can be a good foundation for learning historical or classical fencing later on because it teaches many important fundamentals, and saying it isn't a martial art isn't meant to deny the athleticism and skill involved, you won't learn how to avoid injury if you're just training for the Olympics. In order to make practice safer, the weapons have become much lighter and more flexible so that they no longer behave like the weapons they were originally supposed to simulate. The "[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flick_(fencing) flick]]" in foil is basically flicking your blade so that the tip curves around your opponent's parry and touches them at an angle, a move which is impossible using a real, stiff sword and which is highly controversial because some consider it cheating. A similar phenomeonon in saber is called "whip-over", and these days because of electronic scoring a sabreur can hit with the flat of the blade rather than the forward or reverse edge and it still counts. There are also various rules that in theory are supposed to ensure that the fencers use sound principles of defense and need to score clean hits that would draw blood if the swords were real, but in practice the need to score points creates perverse incentives for all kinds of behavior that would be suicidal in a real fight. Right of way is supposed to encourage fencers to attack first instead of just cowering at each other, and to make sure that the fencer being attacked has to successfully defend before launching the attack on his own (in order to avoid double-hits), but this can lead to attackers becoming reckless in a way they wouldn't be if there wasn't right of way. Electronic scoring, which we've already mentioned, was introduced in order to prevent the subjectivity of the judges from messing up a call, and in that regard it was definitely an improvement. However, this has made the distinction between square and glancing hits with the thrust weapons harder to measure, and introduces the problem of cut-out times. The cut-out time is the maximum time between hits for the scoring mechanism to register them as simultaneous, and if that time is exceeded then only the first hit to land will count. In ''épée'' this cut-out time is a mere 40 milliseconds, meaning that a second hit landing even a little outside this window would still appear to be practically simultaneous with the first, yet only the first hit would register. In 2004-5, the foil cut-out time was reduced to 350 milliseconds and saber to 120 milliseconds. The cut-out time results in a lot of double-hits and difficulty for the referees, and an unreasonable advantage for the attacker. This is a grossly oversimplified look at complex problems which are SeriousBusiness to people in the fencing world, and they are unlikely to ever be solved to everyone's satisfaction since any attempt to correct a problem seems to create a problem of its own.
** Kendo ''Kendo'' has similarly developed into a de-fanged "sporterized" version of its martial ancestor ''UsefulNotes/{{Kenjutsu}}''. Around the beginning In olden times, students of the 18th century, practitioners began making various concessions sword would spar without protective equipment using practice swords made of solid hardwood (''[[WoodenKatanasAreEvenBetter bokuto]]''), which often caused severe injuries such as broken bones. Naganuma Shirōzaemon Kunisato is said to safety: have introduced the lighter and more flexible use of bamboo practice sword swords (''shinai'') replaced the solid hardwood ''[[WoodenKatanasAreEvenBetter bokuto]]'' formerly used in sword practice, and protective armor (''bogu'') started to be worn. Especially since its revival after World War II sword practice during the Shotoku Era (17111715), and during the 19th century this form of practice became popular throughout Japan. The form of ''kendo'' practiced before UsefulNotes/WorldWarII could still get rough, however, as it has been permitted moves such as wrestling your opponent to the ground, or even removing his head (''men'') protector! After the War, which initially saw ''kendo'' banned along with other martial arts by the occupying authorities, it was brought back and explicitly defined retooled as an activity for self-cultivation rather than training for combat, while ''kenjutsu'' and other forms of ''koryuu'' carry on combat. Today there are only a few schools that teach the older martial legacy. rougher pre-war ''kendo''. In modern kendo, ''kendo'', there are four designated target areas: cuts may be made to the wrists, head, or body, and thrusts may only be aimed at the throat. Also, because of the specific rules, the guards ''chudan'', ''jodan'', and ''seigan'' dominate while ''hasso'', ''gedan'', and ''waki'' have fallen out of use. Needless to say, grappling and wrestling on the floor are strictly prohibited.
6th Jan '18 8:24:02 PM TheBigBopper
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In the more flashy and energetic varieties of flynning you can expect to see a preposterously reckless offense, typically consisting of [[EverythingsBetterWithSpinning 360 degree spins and somersaults]] that would leave the back wide open, combined with absurdly overshot slashes and swipes that would invite a quick, lethal interruption. Despite the benefit to be gained by just sticking out their point at the right moment, the defender allows the attacker to whirl around like a dervish without taking advantage of these openings. Another hallmark of Flynning is poor application of distance or measure; They will probably spend most of the time intentionally fighting at a distance just close enough so that they can clash their swords together at the center or tip of their blades, but not close enough to hit any body part except the other swordsman's hand or forearm. Alternately they might get way too close to each other for the length of weapon they are using, perhaps resulting in a BladeLock where they push against each other while glowering between the blades, and persist in using their long weapons at the point where in a real fight both parties would switch to daggers and grappling. The BladeLock may be broken by one fighter using a push, kick, or headbutt to knock his opponent off balance, but of course instead of rushing in for the kill he will take his time so that the other guy can recover his guard and keep fighting.

to:

In the more flashy and energetic varieties of flynning you can expect to see a preposterously reckless offense, typically consisting of [[EverythingsBetterWithSpinning 360 degree spins and somersaults]] that would leave the back wide open, combined with absurdly overshot slashes and swipes that would invite a quick, lethal interruption. Despite the benefit to be gained by just sticking out their point at the right moment, the defender allows the attacker to whirl around like a dervish without taking advantage of these openings. Another hallmark of Flynning is poor application of distance or measure; They will probably spend most of the time intentionally fighting at a distance just close enough so that they can clash their swords together at the center or tip of their blades, but not close enough to hit any body part except the other swordsman's hand or forearm. Alternately At other times they might get way too close to each other for the length of weapon they are using, perhaps resulting in a BladeLock where they push against each other while glowering between the blades, and persist in using their long weapons at the point where in a real fight both parties would switch to daggers and grappling. The BladeLock may be broken by one fighter using a push, kick, or headbutt to knock his opponent off balance, but of course instead of rushing in for the kill he will take his time so that the other guy can recover his guard and keep fighting.
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