History Main / FairPlayWhodunnit

19th Apr '17 1:34:04 PM Gosicrystal
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* Discussed in ''VisualNovel/VirtuesLastReward'', but also immediately dismissed by [[spoiler:Sigma, who due to his more or less RippleEffectProofMemory is able to bypass Rule 6]]. Even though the game violently smashes every rule, it still manages to emcompess the SPIRIT of the rules, unlike most examples of this, by having the very spirit of why every rule exists being intact, while still breaking the fundamental rules themselves. This is done through a mixture of ways. Rue
** For example rule 8 is broken by [[spoiler: Sigma revealing information that he shouldn't yet know, confusing other characters and having the timelines you go done have moments of Sigma sporadically pulling information from timelines the player most likely hasn't gone down yet. However, the player never once knows more then Sigma. In fact, in many occasions, it's the OTHER WAY AROUND. The game also makes you play down a timeline that Sigma has pulled information from first, before you can see the moment in the other timeline where Sigma states the info' he pulled [this is achieved by using "path blocks" that cuts the scene whenever Sigma is about to say something the player shouldn't yet know].]]
*** Rule 2 is also broken by, of course, [[spoiler:the constant mind leaping, and time stuff. But the essence of why the rule is included; so that supernatural stuff can't just be used as an AssPull, is respected and never broken. Every element of the supernatural abilities is explained with actual scientific, if hard to believe, explanations, and the entire thing is laid on a plate for the player at the start. There's never a single moment where the supernatural elements are treated as anything other then established points, as normal to the in-game universe as, say, jet-travel is in the real world.]]
*** Rule 7 is MASSIVELY broken. [[spoiler:Sigma himself is Zero. But once again, the game pays homage and never breaks the reason for the rule existing: It never has the 'detective' turn out to be "the bad guy", therefore breaking the entire point of the story. Sigma himself is just as shocked as anyone to learn that he was the 'criminal' all along.]]
*** Rule 4: The reason some things are given long scientific explanations in game are [[spoiler:because those explanations become vital later on, and are used for a number of "loop-hole" breakages, once again making sure that the reason the rule exists; to prevent pointlessly confusing dialogue and banter, is not broken.]]
*** In fact, this can be applied to ALL the rules. They're all broken, but pay respect to the reason they all exist: To present a fair who dunnit. The player never knows too little, and the mystery always maintains "the basic rules" despite breaking all the fundamental commandments. The game pretty much straight out screams to the player "we're breaking these rules and we're proud!" at mainly since the game actually has one of it's "hidden files" being the 10 rules.
*** Sigma himself is called out on this by Luna, who uses rule 6 to discount his argument, when he used information from another timeline. [[spoiler:Sigma uses this example as to why he didn't do anything wrong: The two timelines, timeline A and B, both stream from timeline P. Since timeline A and B both run of the same "time", one that came from timeline P, and since he himself can timeline jump, him taking information from timeline A and using it in timeline B isn't breaking any rules. He also goes on to say that if he had taken info from timeline A then gone back to timeline P and used the info to change the branches, then she would have a point. But as he never actually used information he couldn't otherwise know to change the OUTCOME of the timelines, which is the fundamental reason why rule 6 exists, he's not doing anything wrong.]]

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* Discussed in ''VisualNovel/VirtuesLastReward'', but also immediately dismissed by [[spoiler:Sigma, who due to his more or less RippleEffectProofMemory is able to bypass Rule 6]]. Even though the game violently smashes every rule, it still manages to emcompess the SPIRIT of the rules, unlike most examples of this, by having the very spirit of why every rule exists being intact, while still breaking the fundamental rules themselves. This is done through a mixture of ways. Rue
ways:
** For example rule Rule 8 is broken by [[spoiler: Sigma revealing information that he shouldn't yet know, confusing other characters and having the timelines you go done have moments of Sigma sporadically pulling information from timelines the player most likely hasn't gone down yet. However, the player never once knows more then Sigma. In fact, in many occasions, it's the OTHER WAY AROUND. The game also makes you play down a timeline that Sigma has pulled information from first, before you can see the moment in the other timeline where Sigma states the info' he pulled [this is achieved by using "path blocks" that cuts the scene whenever Sigma is about to say something the player shouldn't yet know].]]
*** ** Rule 2 is also broken by, of course, [[spoiler:the constant mind leaping, and time stuff. But the essence of why the rule is included; so that supernatural stuff can't just be used as an AssPull, is respected and never broken. Every element of the supernatural abilities is explained with actual scientific, if hard to believe, explanations, and the entire thing is laid on a plate for the player at the start. There's never a single moment where the supernatural elements are treated as anything other then established points, as normal to the in-game universe as, say, jet-travel is in the real world.]]
*** ** Rule 7 is MASSIVELY broken. [[spoiler:Sigma himself is Zero. But once again, the game pays homage and never breaks the reason for the rule existing: It never has the 'detective' turn out to be "the bad guy", therefore breaking the entire point of the story. Sigma himself is just as shocked as anyone to learn that he was the 'criminal' all along.]]
*** ** Rule 4: The reason some things are given long scientific explanations in game are [[spoiler:because those explanations become vital later on, and are used for a number of "loop-hole" breakages, once again making sure that the reason the rule exists; to prevent pointlessly confusing dialogue and banter, is not broken.]]
*** In fact, this can be applied to ALL the rules. They're all broken, but pay respect to the reason they all exist: To present a fair who dunnit. The player never knows too little, and the mystery always maintains "the basic rules" despite breaking all the fundamental commandments. The game pretty much straight out screams to the player "we're breaking these rules and we're proud!" at mainly since the game actually has one of it's "hidden files" being the 10 rules.
***
** Sigma himself is called out on this by Luna, who uses rule 6 to discount his argument, when he used information from another timeline. [[spoiler:Sigma uses this example as to why he didn't do anything wrong: The two timelines, timeline A and B, both stream from timeline P. Since timeline A and B both run of the same "time", one that came from timeline P, and since he himself can timeline jump, him taking information from timeline A and using it in timeline B isn't breaking any rules. He also goes on to say that if he had taken info from timeline A then gone back to timeline P and used the info to change the branches, then she would have a point. But as he never actually used information he couldn't otherwise know to change the OUTCOME of the timelines, which is the fundamental reason why rule 6 exists, he's not doing anything wrong.]]
8th Apr '17 1:23:22 PM Lemia
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* Applies to multiple episodes of ''Series/{{VeronicaMars}}''. In terms of the major arc mysteries, all would theoretically qualify, but the first three rely on last-minute clues that ensure that (while astute viewers might have speculatively guessed the culprits) the viewer can only be ''certain'' who the murderer/rapist is at the same time that Veronica herself is. The fourth arc is the only one where the viewer might beat Veronica to the punch, as the incriminating evidence is scattered quite early and [[spoiler: there's a false resolution halfway through the episode that Veronica falls for. Her EurekaMoment comes not from a new piece of evidence, but from hearing the real killer laying out the 'facts' of how the murders played out; she realises what some viewers will already have picked up on, that the first resolution was a frame job and that only one person could have done that.]]

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* Applies to multiple episodes of ''Series/{{VeronicaMars}}''.''Series/VeronicaMars''. In terms of the major arc mysteries, all would theoretically qualify, but the first three rely on last-minute clues that ensure that (while astute viewers might have speculatively guessed the culprits) the viewer can only be ''certain'' who the murderer/rapist is at the same time that Veronica herself is. The fourth arc is the only one where the viewer might beat Veronica to the punch, as the incriminating evidence is scattered quite early and [[spoiler: there's a false resolution halfway through the episode that Veronica falls for. Her EurekaMoment comes not from a new piece of evidence, but from hearing the real killer laying out the 'facts' of how the murders played out; she realises what some viewers will already have picked up on, that the first resolution was a frame job and that only one person could have done that.]] ]]
* Every season and version of ''Series/TheMole'' contains hidden clues that viewers can spot to figure out who the Mole is before the final episode reveal. Some of these clues are extremely obscure or ambiguous, but others are easier to spot like the host never calling the Mole's name during executions in one U.S. season or even HiddenInPlainSight like a contestant in season 8 of the Dutch version asking a question that confirmed them to be the Mole but was worded in a way to be easily misheard as them asking if another contestant was the Mole instead.
4th Apr '17 9:57:44 AM BWHComics
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Added DiffLines:

[[folder:Web Comics]]
* The creator of ''TheLettersoftheDevil'', Ben Wright-Heuman, has stated that his comic will be entirely solvable prior to the big reveal.
27th Mar '17 6:29:35 PM Ferot_Dreadnaught
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The opposite of a CluelessMystery; the puzzle of the story is entirely solvable before TheReveal or TheSummation, if you've spotted the clues, and not just by [[NarrowedItDownToTheGuyIRecognize various methods]] of being a GenreSavvy reader/viewer. The trick, of course, is having it solvable by the reader/viewer, but still difficult enough that they don't all figure it out long before the actual reveal. To avoid the reader/viewer feeling guilt about enjoying the investigation of a murder, and to avoid disturbingly intense emotion among the characters, the victim is often someone who the reader and the in-universe characters [[WhoMurderedTheAsshole don't particularly mourn]].

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The opposite of a CluelessMystery; the puzzle of the story is entirely solvable before TheReveal or TheSummation, if you've spotted the clues, and not just by [[NarrowedItDownToTheGuyIRecognize various methods]] of being as a GenreSavvy reader/viewer. The trick, of course, is having it solvable by the reader/viewer, but still difficult enough that they don't all figure it out long before the actual reveal. To avoid the reader/viewer feeling guilt about enjoying the investigation of a murder, and to avoid disturbingly intense emotion among the characters, the victim is often someone who the reader and the in-universe characters [[WhoMurderedTheAsshole don't particularly mourn]].



** A subversion is ''Have His Carcase'', where the solution requires on a very elaborate [[spoiler:(and accidental on the part of the murderer)]] trick involving the time of death. [[spoiler:The victim has a rare condition known as hemophilia, which prevents the blood from clotting, obscuring the ''real'' time of death.]] If the reader is knowledgeable enough in minor trivia, there are enough clues for a [[ViewersAreGeniuses genius]] to figure out what the trick is - but it requires a very specialized knowledge base that most people simply do not have. For those without the prerequisite knowledge, Lord Peter's [[TheReveal revelation]] seems a bit like an AssPull or DeusExMachina, though the astute and GenreSavvy reader can generally figure out that ''something'' is hinky, because everyone's alibi is too solid, which is what tips Wimsey off that something is hinky. [[spoiler:One of the things that tips him off to the ''identity'' of the murderer is that that suspect also has a (manufactured) alibi for the ''real'' time of death, once he realizes what that is.]]

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** A subversion is ''Have His Carcase'', where the solution requires on a very elaborate [[spoiler:(and accidental on the part of the murderer)]] trick involving the time of death. [[spoiler:The victim has a rare condition known as hemophilia, which prevents the blood from clotting, obscuring the ''real'' time of death.]] If the reader is knowledgeable enough in minor trivia, there are enough clues for a [[ViewersAreGeniuses genius]] to figure out what the trick is - but it requires a very specialized knowledge base that most people simply do not have. For those without the prerequisite knowledge, Lord Peter's [[TheReveal revelation]] seems a bit like an AssPull or DeusExMachina, though the astute and GenreSavvy reader can generally figure out that ''something'' is hinky, because everyone's alibi is too solid, which is what tips Wimsey off that something is hinky. [[spoiler:One of the things that tips him off to the ''identity'' of the murderer is that that suspect also has a (manufactured) alibi for the ''real'' time of death, once he realizes what that is.]]
22nd Mar '17 4:52:24 AM LondonKdS
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The opposite of a CluelessMystery; the puzzle of the story is entirely solvable before TheReveal or TheSummation, if you've spotted the clues, and not just by [[NarrowedItDownToTheGuyIRecognize various methods]] of being a GenreSavvy reader/viewer. The trick, of course, is having it solvable by the reader/viewer, but still difficult enough that they don't all figure it out long before the actual reveal. To avoid the reader/viewer feeling guilt about enjoying the investigation of a murder, and to avoid disturbingly intense emotion among the characters, the victim is often someone who the reader and the in-universe characters [[AssholeVictim don't particularly mourn]].

to:

The opposite of a CluelessMystery; the puzzle of the story is entirely solvable before TheReveal or TheSummation, if you've spotted the clues, and not just by [[NarrowedItDownToTheGuyIRecognize various methods]] of being a GenreSavvy reader/viewer. The trick, of course, is having it solvable by the reader/viewer, but still difficult enough that they don't all figure it out long before the actual reveal. To avoid the reader/viewer feeling guilt about enjoying the investigation of a murder, and to avoid disturbingly intense emotion among the characters, the victim is often someone who the reader and the in-universe characters [[AssholeVictim [[WhoMurderedTheAsshole don't particularly mourn]].
22nd Mar '17 4:51:28 AM LondonKdS
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The opposite of a CluelessMystery; the puzzle of the story is entirely solvable before TheReveal or TheSummation, if you've spotted the clues, and not just by [[NarrowedItDownToTheGuyIRecognize various methods]] of being a GenreSavvy reader/viewer. The trick, of course, is having it solvable by the reader/viewer, but still difficult enough that they don't all figure it out long before the actual reveal.

to:

The opposite of a CluelessMystery; the puzzle of the story is entirely solvable before TheReveal or TheSummation, if you've spotted the clues, and not just by [[NarrowedItDownToTheGuyIRecognize various methods]] of being a GenreSavvy reader/viewer. The trick, of course, is having it solvable by the reader/viewer, but still difficult enough that they don't all figure it out long before the actual reveal.
reveal. To avoid the reader/viewer feeling guilt about enjoying the investigation of a murder, and to avoid disturbingly intense emotion among the characters, the victim is often someone who the reader and the in-universe characters [[AssholeVictim don't particularly mourn]].
8th Mar '17 9:04:38 AM LondonKdS
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** Whether it does so successfully or not is a different story though [[spoiler: for example Rule 3 is violated by having ''two'' secret passages right next to each other in an acceptable setting and Rule 5 is violated by having the killer's name spelled wrong on a dinner card hiding her "Chinaman" status]] and falls under ValuesDissonance with Rule 2 [[spoiler: as the "supernatural" of that case has the killer be gay.]] And Rule 8 is arguably not broken at all since an astute reader could figure out the significance of walking around a car to get into the passenger seat [[spoiler: without being outright told that it is a British model.]])

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** Whether it does so successfully or not is a different story though [[spoiler: for example though. [[spoiler:For example, Rule 3 is violated by having ''two'' secret passages right next to each other in an acceptable setting and Rule 5 is violated by having the killer's name spelled wrong on a dinner card hiding her "Chinaman" status]] and status.]] The Rule 2 story falls under ValuesDissonance with Rule 2 [[spoiler: as DeliberateValuesDissonance [[spoiler:as the "supernatural" of that case has the killer be gay.gay, which Škvorecký claims the traditionalist Catholic Knox would have viewed as "unnatural".]] And Rule 8 is arguably not broken at all since an astute reader could figure out the significance of walking a character having to walk around a car to get into the passenger seat [[spoiler: without [[spoiler:without being outright told that it is a British model.]])
8th Mar '17 5:00:55 AM LondonKdS
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** ''Literature/TheMurderOfRogerAckroyd'' is also extremely fair. The way Poirot ultimately solves the crime is by reading what Dr. Sheppard wrote down which is ''exactly what the reader is reading''. Which means that an acute reader could actually pick up most of the important clues before Poirot does.
*** It does violate two of Knox's Commandments ([[spoiler: the First and the Ninth; the Watson of the novel is also the murderer, and he does not write down every thought he had in the journal]]). This does not keep it from being fair, serving as reminder that rigid adherence to Knox's rules is not what makes a good Fairplay Whodunnit.

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** ''Literature/TheMurderOfRogerAckroyd'' was intensely controversial at the time (which helped cement Christie's fame) but is also now generally recognised as extremely fair. The way Poirot ultimately solves the crime is by reading what Dr. Sheppard wrote down which is ''exactly what the reader is reading''. Which means that an acute reader could actually pick up most of the important clues before Poirot does.
*** It
does. The controversy occurs because the novel does violate two of Knox's Commandments ([[spoiler: the First and the Ninth; the Watson Watson-figure of the novel is also the murderer, and he does not write down every thought he had in the journal]]).journal - he does not actively lie to the reader, but fails to describe what he was doing at the time of the murder in a way that is blatant on a second reading but is easily passed over on the first]]). This does not keep it from being fair, serving as reminder that rigid adherence to Knox's rules is not what makes a good Fairplay Whodunnit.
11th Jan '17 7:00:01 PM nombretomado
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* There's a LordPeterWimsey mystery where a particular missing item from a painter's setup is an important clue that the painter had been murdered, rather than died accidentally, and the page revealing what it is before TheSummation, in a vaguely clever twist, is removed for "the entertainment of the reader".

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* There's a LordPeterWimsey Literature/LordPeterWimsey mystery where a particular missing item from a painter's setup is an important clue that the painter had been murdered, rather than died accidentally, and the page revealing what it is before TheSummation, in a vaguely clever twist, is removed for "the entertainment of the reader".
23rd Dec '16 9:23:04 PM FuzzyBoots
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* In ''Film/HangmansCurse'', all of the clues are provided to the audience, giving them the material to determine the person behind it all by halfway through the film, earlier than it takes for the protagonists to figure it out.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.FairPlayWhodunnit