History Main / DoUntoOthersBeforeTheyDoUntoUs

7th Aug '16 6:08:34 PM Argon2
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[[AC:VisualNovel]]
* The ''VisualNovel/ZeroEscape'' series revolves around several DeadlyGame[=s=]. Naturally, even heroic participants are worried by the fact that their 'opponents' could easily betray them if left alive. Given that several murderers are also participating, there are actually times when killing someone ''is'' the right and sensible decision. Not shooting [[spoiler:Eric]] in ''[=ZTD=]'', for example, will lead to a bad ending where he fatally shoots the protagonist.
1st Jun '16 12:24:43 PM TheCuza
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* In ''Film/TheDarkKnight'', the Joker attempts to set up this kind of scenario with two barges, one filled with ordinary civilians and the other with criminals, with the same premise: give them a choice to blow up the other group before they blow up yours. [[RousseauWasRight Neither group plays along with the Joker's game]].

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* In ''Film/TheDarkKnight'', the Joker attempts to set up this kind of scenario with two barges, one filled with ordinary civilians and the other with criminals, with criminals. They are each given a detonator and the same premise: give them a choice to blow instructions: Blow up the other group boat before they blow up yours.you, and if neither boat blows up within a certain time limit, then he'll blow them ''both'' up himself. [[RousseauWasRight Neither group plays along with the Joker's game]].
18th May '16 9:50:12 AM MarqFJA
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* This line of thinking underpinned much of the nuclear proliferation in the Cold War. While nuclear weapons (utilising nuclear fission) were still weak, to the point that it would take half a dozen of the USA's stock of just 500 to completely destroy cities such as Shanghai or Warsaw outright (though the firestorms generated would have been largely sufficient even in the event of a single strike), certain US generals such as [=MacArthur=] talked openly about nuking the Commies into submission. Of course, the Soviet Union's invention and mass-production of the thousand-fold more powerful nuclear fusion ('hydrogen') devices and ICBMs in the early 1960s changed all that.

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* This line of thinking underpinned much of the nuclear proliferation in the Cold War. While nuclear weapons (utilising nuclear fission) were still weak, to the point that it would take half a dozen of the USA's stock of just 500 to completely destroy cities such as Shanghai or Warsaw outright (though the firestorms generated would have been largely sufficient even in the event of a single strike), certain US generals such as [=MacArthur=] talked openly about nuking the Commies into submission. Of course, the Soviet Union's invention and mass-production of the thousand-fold more powerful nuclear fusion ('hydrogen') devices and ICBMs [=ICBMs=] in the early 1960s changed all that.
18th May '16 9:49:43 AM MarqFJA
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* A serious debate in the Soviet 1970s was whether or not it was best to nuke the PRC's atomic and rocket research facilities, since many argued that an escalation of the Sino-Soviet border skirmishes into a Total War was basically inevitable: the Chinese were crazy, they said (with some justification, as the Cultural Revolution was ongoing), and would never again accept 'peaceful co-existence' because it constituted acceptance of the heretical doctrine of 'Soviet Revisionism' (i.e. administration of the country by bureaucrats and not 'the people' themselves) and thus an end to Mao's much-vaunted 'Perpetual Revolution'. Therefore, the Chinese had to be nuked and they had to be nuked ''now'' before they got their hands on nukes capable of reaching the European republics of the USSR. Initially, cooler heads prevailed as it was hard to counter the incredibly obvious point that [[SeflFulfillingProphecy the quickest way to start a Total War with China was by nuking them]]. But as the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese nuclear programme, and the border skirmishes all escalated the Soviets eventually agreed that they really were on a course to Total War and something had to be done. Accordingly, they merely threatened to nuke the PRC's research facilities if they refused to negotiate an end to the border skirmishes (while accepting the Chinese development of nuclear weapons in principle). Which they did, ushering in Sino-Soviet Détente.

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* A serious debate in the Soviet 1970s was whether or not it was best to nuke the PRC's atomic and rocket research facilities, since many argued that an escalation of the Sino-Soviet border skirmishes into a Total War was basically inevitable: the Chinese were crazy, they said (with some justification, as the Cultural Revolution was ongoing), and would never again accept 'peaceful co-existence' because it constituted acceptance of the heretical doctrine of 'Soviet Revisionism' (i.e. administration of the country by bureaucrats and not 'the people' themselves) and thus an end to Mao's much-vaunted 'Perpetual Revolution'. Therefore, the Chinese had to be nuked and they had to be nuked ''now'' before they got their hands on nukes capable of reaching the European republics of the USSR. Initially, cooler heads prevailed as it was hard to counter the incredibly obvious point that [[SeflFulfillingProphecy [[SelfFulfillingProphecy the quickest way to start a Total War with China was by nuking them]]. But as the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese nuclear programme, and the border skirmishes all escalated the Soviets eventually agreed that they really were on a course to Total War and something had to be done. Accordingly, they merely threatened to nuke the PRC's research facilities if they refused to negotiate an end to the border skirmishes (while accepting the Chinese development of nuclear weapons in principle). Which they did, ushering in Sino-Soviet Détente.
15th May '16 4:46:38 AM ryanasaurus0077
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[[AC:{{Fanfiction}}]]
* Quoted almost verbatim by Leaf in ''FanFic/PokemonClefairyTales'' one time she commanded her Rattata to use Quick Attack.
-->'''Leaf''': Do unto the other guy before he does unto you!
2nd May '16 12:15:36 PM MAI742
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* This line of thinking underpinned much of the nuclear proliferation in the Cold War, and certain generals like [=MacArthur=] talked publicly about preemptive nuclear strikes against the Communists. Thankfully, cooler heads prevailed on that one.
** In fact, that nuclear weapons have only been used ''once'' (or technically ''twice'' on both Nagasaki and Hiroshima) in warfare is a fairly solid refutation of the logic behind this trope (as described at the top of the page). Nuclear weapons were invented, proliferated amongst major world powers, but have never been used against an enemy since that first time demonstrated just how powerful they were.

to:

* This line of thinking underpinned much of the nuclear proliferation in the Cold War, and War. While nuclear weapons (utilising nuclear fission) were still weak, to the point that it would take half a dozen of the USA's stock of just 500 to completely destroy cities such as Shanghai or Warsaw outright (though the firestorms generated would have been largely sufficient even in the event of a single strike), certain US generals like such as [=MacArthur=] talked publicly openly about preemptive nuking the Commies into submission. Of course, the Soviet Union's invention and mass-production of the thousand-fold more powerful nuclear strikes against fusion ('hydrogen') devices and ICBMs in the Communists. Thankfully, early 1960s changed all that.
* A serious debate in the Soviet 1970s was whether or not it was best to nuke the PRC's atomic and rocket research facilities, since many argued that an escalation of the Sino-Soviet border skirmishes into a Total War was basically inevitable: the Chinese were crazy, they said (with some justification, as the Cultural Revolution was ongoing), and would never again accept 'peaceful co-existence' because it constituted acceptance of the heretical doctrine of 'Soviet Revisionism' (i.e. administration of the country by bureaucrats and not 'the people' themselves) and thus an end to Mao's much-vaunted 'Perpetual Revolution'. Therefore, the Chinese had to be nuked and they had to be nuked ''now'' before they got their hands on nukes capable of reaching the European republics of the USSR. Initially,
cooler heads prevailed on as it was hard to counter the incredibly obvious point that one.
** In fact,
[[SeflFulfillingProphecy the quickest way to start a Total War with China was by nuking them]]. But as the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese nuclear programme, and the border skirmishes all escalated the Soviets eventually agreed that they really were on a course to Total War and something had to be done. Accordingly, they merely threatened to nuke the PRC's research facilities if they refused to negotiate an end to the border skirmishes (while accepting the Chinese development of nuclear weapons have only been used ''once'' (or technically ''twice'' on both Nagasaki and Hiroshima) in warfare is a fairly solid refutation of the logic behind this trope (as described at the top of the page). Nuclear weapons were invented, proliferated amongst major world powers, but have never been used against an enemy since that first time demonstrated just how powerful principle). Which they were.did, ushering in Sino-Soviet Détente.
13th Apr '16 10:09:19 PM MAI742
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** ''"Now I know first hand what war really means. I also know however that we are forced into this struggle against the Soviet Union. For God have mercy on us, for if we had waited, or if these beasts had come to us. For them the most gruesome death is too beautiful. I am fortunate, therefore, that I should be here to put a stop to the handiwork of this genocidal system [v&ooml;lkervernichtenden]"'' - German Army private Frederich Fallnbigl, letter written July 1941 [[note]] printed in David Redles' ''Hitler's Millenial Reich: Apocalyptic Belief and the Search for Salvation'' p.175 [[/note]]

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** ''"Now "Now I know first hand what war really means. I also know however that we are forced into this struggle against the Soviet Union. For God have mercy on us, for if we had waited, or if these beasts had come to us. For them the most gruesome death is too beautiful. I am fortunate, therefore, that I should be here to put a stop to the handiwork of this genocidal system [v&ooml;lkervernichtenden]"'' [völkervernichtenden]" - German Army private Frederich Fallnbigl, letter written July 1941 [[note]] printed in David Redles' ''Hitler's Millenial Reich: Apocalyptic Belief and the Search for Salvation'' p.175 [[/note]]
13th Apr '16 10:07:59 PM MAI742
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* It was [[UsefulNotes/AdolfHitler Hitler's]] favourite excuse for invading countries. UrExample was the Soviet Union. Some anti-communists, Poles, ''Wehrmacht'' fanboys, and German nationalists ''still, to this day,'' follow the official line of Nazi Germany: that the Jewish puppetmasters controlling the Soviet Union were going to make it invade Germany and then exterminate all European people (because the superior intellect and morality inherent to European races made them the only ones capable of resisting Jewish manipulation). DoUntoOthersBeforeTheyDoUntoUs [[GuiltFreeExterminationWar was invoked to morally justify]] the German authorities' intent to exterminate a quarter of the population of the region (about 30 million) in the short-term and enslave the rest, who would eventually be sterilized and/or exterminated to make room for settlement by ethnic Germans.

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* It was [[UsefulNotes/AdolfHitler Hitler's]] favourite excuse for invading countries. UrExample was the Soviet Union. Some anti-communists, Poles, ''Wehrmacht'' fanboys, and German nationalists ''still, to this day,'' follow the official line of Nazi Germany: that the Jewish puppetmasters controlling the Soviet Union were going to make it invade Germany and then exterminate all European people (because the superior intellect and morality inherent to European races made them the only ones capable of resisting Jewish manipulation). DoUntoOthersBeforeTheyDoUntoUs [[GuiltFreeExterminationWar was invoked to morally justify]] the German authorities' intent to exterminate a quarter of the population of the region (about 30 million) in the short-term and enslave the rest, who would eventually be sterilized and/or exterminated to make room for settlement by ethnic Germans.war.


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* Interestingly, although German propaganda was fairly clear on the point that Judeo-Bolshevik overlordship would be replaced by German rule, no mention was made of the German authorities' genocidal plans for the region's non-Jewish population. [[note]] This is because the basic idea seems to have been to exterminate a quarter of the region's population (c. 30 million) in the short-term and enslave the rest, who would be sterilized and exterminated as needed to make room for settlement by ethnic Germans in the medium-term - the long-term goal of course being to replace the entire population with Aryan-German settlers (though some Fit elements of the more Aryan native ethnicities might not have been sterilized or exterminated) [[/note]] This allowed German military personnel to feel not just that they were waging a defensive war of liberation, but [[{{Irony}} that they were fighting to stop genocide]]:
** ''"Now I know first hand what war really means. I also know however that we are forced into this struggle against the Soviet Union. For God have mercy on us, for if we had waited, or if these beasts had come to us. For them the most gruesome death is too beautiful. I am fortunate, therefore, that I should be here to put a stop to the handiwork of this genocidal system [v&ooml;lkervernichtenden]"'' - German Army private Frederich Fallnbigl, letter written July 1941 [[note]] printed in David Redles' ''Hitler's Millenial Reich: Apocalyptic Belief and the Search for Salvation'' p.175 [[/note]]
13th Apr '16 9:46:29 PM MAI742
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** "The battle against these subhumans, who've been whipped into a frenzy by the Jews, was not only necessary but came in the nick of time. Our Führer has saved Europe from certain chaos." - gunner Karl Fuchs, letter written 4th August 1941 (translated by Horst Fuchs Richardson)
** "What the Asiatic hordes would not have wrecked, would have been annihilated by Jewish hatred and revenge." - Captain E.P., letter written 15th February 1943 (translated by Stephen G. Fritz)
* Another interesting point relating to the Conspiracy Theory that papa Stalin was about to invade Germany: when usefulNotes/TheHolocaust became popular knowledge in the 1960s some of those groups dropped the idea of a "Judeo-Bolshevik Conspiracy" in favour of a "Bolshevik-Stalin" model. The last popular scholar to advance the view that the Soviet Union was about to attack Germany was the Soviet defector Victor Suvorov, who in the 1970s used circumstantial evidence hinting at Soviet plans to counter-attack the Germans on the borders of the Soviet Union and drive them back into Germany when the war began as 'proof' that the Soviet Union was about to declare war on Germany. Direct examination of the actual plans in the 1990s revealed the true nature of the planned operation, a defensive counter-offensive. [[note]] The plan was very much a product of its time. It called for the enemy being fought the Soviet-German border or within Germany, and its principal focus was on attacking the Germans. Planning for fighting within Soviet territory or defensive actions were politically unacceptable because of their association with military academics purged for 'defeatism'. In the aftermath of the purges ''nobody'' wanted to be the first person to find out if going against the anti-defensive trend was going to get them imprisoned (it wouldn't have, but they didn't know that) [[/note]]

to:

** "The battle against these subhumans, who've been whipped into a frenzy by the Jews, was not only necessary but came in the nick of time. Our Führer has saved Europe from certain chaos." - German Army gunner Karl Fuchs, letter written 4th August 1941 (translated by Horst Fuchs Richardson)
** "What the Asiatic hordes would not have wrecked, would have been annihilated by Jewish hatred and revenge." - German Army Captain E.P., letter written 15th February 1943 (translated by Stephen G. Fritz)
* Another interesting point relating to the Conspiracy Theory that papa Stalin was about to invade Germany: when usefulNotes/TheHolocaust UsefulNotes/TheHolocaust became popular knowledge in the 1960s some of those groups dropped the idea of switched to a "Judeo-Bolshevik Conspiracy" in favour of a "Bolshevik-Stalin" "Stalin-Bolshevik" model. The last popular scholar to advance the view that the Soviet Union was about to attack Germany was the Soviet defector Victor Suvorov, who in the 1970s used circumstantial evidence hinting at Soviet plans to counter-attack the Germans on the borders of the Soviet Union and drive them back into Germany when the war began as 'proof' that the Soviet Union was about going to declare war on Germany. Direct examination of the actual plans in the 1990s revealed the true nature of the planned operation, a defensive counter-offensive. [[note]] The plan was very much a product of its time. It called for fighting the enemy being fought on the Soviet-German border or within and driving them back into Germany, and its principal focus was on attacking the Germans. Planning Germans at every turn rather than mounting what we (and the Red Army of earlier and later years) would consider a proper defense. At the time of the plan's creation, planning for fighting within Soviet territory or and defensive actions in general were politically unacceptable risky because of their association with military academics purged for 'defeatism'. In the aftermath of the purges ''nobody'' wanted to be the first person to find out if going against the anti-defensive trend was going to get them imprisoned (it wouldn't have, but they didn't know that) [[/note]]
13th Apr '16 4:17:40 AM MAI742
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* Another interesting point relating to the Conspiracy Theory that papa Stalin was about to invade Germany: when usefulNotes/TheHolocaust became popular knowledge in the 1960s some of those groups dropped the idea of a "Judeo-Bolshevik Conspiracy" in favour of a "Bolshevik-Stalin" model. The last popular scholar to advance the view that the Soviet Union was about to attack Germany was the Soviet defector Victor Suvorov, who in the 1970s used circumstantial evidence hinting at Soviet plans to counter-attack the Germans on the borders of the Soviet Union and drive them back into Germany when the war began [[note]] Making plans for fighting deep within Soviet territory contradicted the official line that the Red Army was so strong and competent that there was no need for defensive plans. Contradicting this official line did not actually constitute treason and would not have resulted in imprisonment, but in the aftermath of the purges ''nobody'' wanted to be the first person to find that out for themselves [[/note]] as 'proof' that the Soviet Union was about to declare war on Germany. Direct examination of the actual plans in the 1990s revealed the true nature of the planned operation, a defensive counter-offensive which - sure enough - almost totally failed to have any defensive elements. This was in-keeping with Red Army doctrine at the time, which shyed away from defensive measures as it was considered 'defeatist'.

to:

* Another interesting point relating to the Conspiracy Theory that papa Stalin was about to invade Germany: when usefulNotes/TheHolocaust became popular knowledge in the 1960s some of those groups dropped the idea of a "Judeo-Bolshevik Conspiracy" in favour of a "Bolshevik-Stalin" model. The last popular scholar to advance the view that the Soviet Union was about to attack Germany was the Soviet defector Victor Suvorov, who in the 1970s used circumstantial evidence hinting at Soviet plans to counter-attack the Germans on the borders of the Soviet Union and drive them back into Germany when the war began [[note]] Making plans for fighting deep within Soviet territory contradicted the official line that the Red Army was so strong and competent that there was no need for defensive plans. Contradicting this official line did not actually constitute treason and would not have resulted in imprisonment, but in the aftermath of the purges ''nobody'' wanted to be the first person to find that out for themselves [[/note]] as 'proof' that the Soviet Union was about to declare war on Germany. Direct examination of the actual plans in the 1990s revealed the true nature of the planned operation, a defensive counter-offensive which - sure enough - almost totally failed to have any counter-offensive. [[note]] The plan was very much a product of its time. It called for the enemy being fought the Soviet-German border or within Germany, and its principal focus was on attacking the Germans. Planning for fighting within Soviet territory or defensive elements. This was in-keeping actions were politically unacceptable because of their association with Red Army doctrine at military academics purged for 'defeatism'. In the time, which shyed away from defensive measures as it aftermath of the purges ''nobody'' wanted to be the first person to find out if going against the anti-defensive trend was considered 'defeatist'.going to get them imprisoned (it wouldn't have, but they didn't know that) [[/note]]
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