History Main / DiminishingReturnsForBalance

25th Jul '16 3:28:32 AM Morgenthaler
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* ''DragonSaga'''s archer classes have a skill that lets them juggle enemies in the air by holding down the 'Z' key. Predictably it quickly became one of the most hated exploits even after more broken ones were found. One attempt to fix it saw its damage gradually decrease to 30% over consecutive hits... with no other change, meaning that the only 'improvement' was that the victim survived longer in a helpless state.

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* ''DragonSaga'''s ''VideoGame/DragonSaga'''s archer classes have a skill that lets them juggle enemies in the air by holding down the 'Z' key. Predictably it quickly became one of the most hated exploits even after more broken ones were found. One attempt to fix it saw its damage gradually decrease to 30% over consecutive hits... with no other change, meaning that the only 'improvement' was that the victim survived longer in a helpless state.
29th Jun '16 5:54:14 PM nombretomado
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* Multiple damage or defense upgrades in ''EveOnline'' employ Diminishing Returns. The first such module has full effect, the second approximately 80%, and after the third a fourth becomes near-pointless.
** Somethign similar happens with skills. Each skill typically gives a 5% increase per level to it's relevant modules, but the training times increase exponentially for each level, so you may need only an hour to train the skill to level 1 and unlock the first 5% boost, but it will take a month to train it to level 5 and unlock the final 5% increase.
* ''WorldOfWarcraft'' uses this for the duration of stuns and similar effects on other players to prevent "stunlocks". Defensive stats also use them to encourage tanks to invest in all forms (if available to them) rather than just one. Hard caps are also in effect in some cases, but Blizzard is trying to get rid of those or change things around so they cant be reached.

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* Multiple damage or defense upgrades in ''EveOnline'' ''VideoGame/EveOnline'' employ Diminishing Returns. The first such module has full effect, the second approximately 80%, and after the third a fourth becomes near-pointless.
** Somethign Something similar happens with skills. Each skill typically gives a 5% increase per level to it's relevant modules, but the training times increase exponentially for each level, so you may need only an hour to train the skill to level 1 and unlock the first 5% boost, but it will take a month to train it to level 5 and unlock the final 5% increase.
* ''WorldOfWarcraft'' ''VideoGame/WorldOfWarcraft'' uses this for the duration of stuns and similar effects on other players to prevent "stunlocks". Defensive stats also use them to encourage tanks to invest in all forms (if available to them) rather than just one. Hard caps are also in effect in some cases, but Blizzard is trying to get rid of those or change things around so they cant be reached.
27th Jun '16 6:05:42 PM VeryMelon
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* ''VideoGame/Fallout4'' has Armor rating (Ballistic Defense and Energy Defense) give diminished returns damage reduction. For example, 60 Armor rating gives 30% damage reduction, but about 93 Armor rating turns into 40% damage reduction. And the difference between 560 Armor rating (T-45 Power Armor) and 1280 Armor rating (T-60 Power Armor) is 81% and 87% damage reduction respectively.

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* ''VideoGame/Fallout4'' has Armor rating (Ballistic Defense and Energy Defense) give diminished returns on damage reduction. For example, 60 Armor rating gives 30% damage reduction, but about 93 Armor rating turns into 40% damage reduction. And the difference between 560 Armor rating (T-45 Power Armor) and 1280 Armor rating (T-60 Power Armor) is 81% and 87% damage reduction respectively.
27th Jun '16 6:04:39 PM VeryMelon
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** ''VideoGame/Fallout4'' has Armor rating (Ballistic Defense and Energy Defense) give diminished returns damage reduction. For example, 60 Armor rating gives 30% damage reduction, but about 93 Armor rating turns into 40% damage reduction. And the difference between 560 Armor rating (T-45 Power Armor) and 1280 Armor rating (T-60 Power Armor) is 81% and 87% damage reduction respectively.

to:

** * ''VideoGame/Fallout4'' has Armor rating (Ballistic Defense and Energy Defense) give diminished returns damage reduction. For example, 60 Armor rating gives 30% damage reduction, but about 93 Armor rating turns into 40% damage reduction. And the difference between 560 Armor rating (T-45 Power Armor) and 1280 Armor rating (T-60 Power Armor) is 81% and 87% damage reduction respectively.
27th Jun '16 6:02:16 PM VeryMelon
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** ''VideoGame/Fallout4'' has Armor rating (Ballistic Defense and Energy Defense) give diminished returns damage reduction. For example, 60 Armor rating gives 30% damage reduction, but about 93 Armor rating turns into 40% damage reduction. And the difference between 560 Armor rating (T-45 Power Armor) and 1280 Armor rating (T-60 Power Armor) is 81% and 87% damage reduction respectively.
9th May '16 12:03:23 AM NeoChaos
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* In contrast to ''[=TF2=]'', ''VideoGame/{{Overwatch}}'' actually accounts for this at the hero selection screen - it will warn a player when their team is has too many of a class (especially snipers) and point out roles that may be lacking (such as a support character). Since it's a push-based game like Team Fortress 2, this can be valuable information for a player who wants to help turn the tide of battle for their team.
11th Mar '16 1:06:43 AM FurryKef
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The second problem is it doesn't always solve the problem of min-maxing. There are usually at a handful of stats that are the most useful in any game, it's just that one of them tends to be more useful then the others. Diminishing returns encourages players to dump points into the "best" stat or stats until the penalty is hit, then dump more into the second best. If the system is not well balanced regarding stats in the first place, the net effect is that instead of focusing excessively on one, players will focus excessively on a small handful.

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The second problem is it doesn't always solve the problem of min-maxing. There are usually at a handful of stats that are the most useful in any game, it's just that one of them tends to be more useful then than the others. Diminishing returns encourages players to dump points into the "best" stat or stats until the penalty is hit, then dump more into the second best. If the system is not well balanced regarding stats in the first place, the net effect is that instead of focusing excessively on one, players will focus excessively on a small handful.
21st Jan '16 6:17:55 PM GrammarNavi
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* In the SuperSmashBros series, each game has a mechanic known as [[http://www.ssbwiki.com/Stale_move_negation "stale-move negation"]], that causes an attack to become weaker the more frequently it is successfully used (as in, it hits an opposing hitbox). In Melee, it wasn't much of a factor, as while it caused attacks to deal reduced damage, it didn't affect the knockback they dealt (thus your finishers will still KO at nearly the same percent they would fresh regardless of how often you used them). In Brawl, it's much more severe, with knockback now being affected; the knockback power of a move will decrease rapidly with each successive use (for example, a move that could KO around 100% fresh will not even KO at 300% if fully decayed). With the freshness bonus also being introduced (a mechanic that boosts the power of a fresh move by 5%), there's a large disparity between the knockback power of a fresh move and a move that has been frequently used, making the strategy of not using your primary KO move(s) until your opponent is at KO percent actually viable (rather than just being an ideal tactic). It's a double-edged sword though; while this rewards players who plan appropriate use of their KO moves and punishes those who used them haphazardly, it causes a few moves to be overly powerful at comboing into themselves, which then causes the characters with such moves to be very hard counters to those that are especially vulnerable to them (Pikachu's down throw is the most infamous example, being a chain throw that causes massive damage, if not directly leading to an outright [[http://www.ssbwiki.com/Zero-to-death_combo zero-death]], on several characters because of this).

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* In the SuperSmashBros VideoGame/SuperSmashBros series, each game has a mechanic known as [[http://www.ssbwiki.com/Stale_move_negation "stale-move negation"]], that causes an attack to become weaker the more frequently it is successfully used (as in, it hits an opposing hitbox). In Melee, it wasn't much of a factor, as while it caused attacks to deal reduced damage, it didn't affect the knockback they dealt (thus your finishers will still KO at nearly the same percent they would fresh regardless of how often you used them). In Brawl, it's much more severe, with knockback now being affected; the knockback power of a move will decrease rapidly with each successive use (for example, a move that could KO around 100% fresh will not even KO at 300% if fully decayed). With the freshness bonus also being introduced (a mechanic that boosts the power of a fresh move by 5%), there's a large disparity between the knockback power of a fresh move and a move that has been frequently used, making the strategy of not using your primary KO move(s) until your opponent is at KO percent actually viable (rather than just being an ideal tactic). It's a double-edged sword though; while this rewards players who plan appropriate use of their KO moves and punishes those who used them haphazardly, it causes a few moves to be overly powerful at comboing into themselves, which then causes the characters with such moves to be very hard counters to those that are especially vulnerable to them (Pikachu's down throw is the most infamous example, being a chain throw that causes massive damage, if not directly leading to an outright [[http://www.ssbwiki.com/Zero-to-death_combo zero-death]], on several characters because of this).
8th Jan '16 10:31:45 PM LucaEarlgrey
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* This phenomenon is called the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottleneck bottleneck]]. It's especially visible in computer setups: if you have an awesome CPU and lots of RAM but a piddly video card, games won't run very well. Conversely, if you have an awesome video card but a weak CPU and little RAM, your games [[MortonsFork still won't run very well]]. Basically, imagine you have a pipe with a specific diameter/radius (RAM) and a specific rate at which water flows (CPU).

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* This phenomenon is called the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottleneck bottleneck]]. It's especially visible in computer setups: if you have an awesome CPU and lots of RAM but a piddly video card, games won't run very well. Conversely, if you have an awesome video card but a weak CPU and little RAM, your games [[MortonsFork still won't run very well]]. Basically, imagine you have a pipe with a specific diameter/radius (RAM) and a specific rate at which water flows (CPU).
8th Jan '16 10:31:17 PM LucaEarlgrey
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* This phenomenon is called the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottleneck bottleneck]]. It's especially visible in computer setups: if you have an awesome CPU and lots of RAM but a piddly video card, games won't run very well. Conversely, if you have an awesome video card but a weak CPU and little RAM, your games [[MortonsFork still won't run very well]].

to:

* This phenomenon is called the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bottleneck bottleneck]]. It's especially visible in computer setups: if you have an awesome CPU and lots of RAM but a piddly video card, games won't run very well. Conversely, if you have an awesome video card but a weak CPU and little RAM, your games [[MortonsFork still won't run very well]]. Basically, imagine you have a pipe with a specific diameter/radius (RAM) and a specific rate at which water flows (CPU).
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