History Main / DiminishingReturnsForBalance

22nd Sep '17 12:43:17 PM Morgenthaler
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* ''VideoGame/RiseOfNations'' and its spinoff ''RiseOfLegends'' (no relation) increases the price of a given unit as their population increases, to make it more expensive to mass single unit types.

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* ''VideoGame/RiseOfNations'' and its spinoff ''RiseOfLegends'' ''VideoGame/RiseOfLegends'' (no relation) increases the price of a given unit as their population increases, to make it more expensive to mass single unit types.
20th Sep '17 6:56:10 PM thatother1dude
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* In contrast to ''[=TF2=]'', ''VideoGame/{{Overwatch}}'' actually accounts for this at the hero selection screen - it will warn a player when their team is has too many of a class (especially snipers) and point out roles that may be lacking (such as a healing character). Since it's a push-based game like Team Fortress 2, this can be valuable information for a player who wants to help turn the tide of battle for their team.

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* In contrast to ''[=TF2=]'', ''VideoGame/{{Overwatch}}'' actually accounts for this at the hero selection screen - it will warn a player when their team is has too many of a class or role (especially snipers) and point out roles that may be lacking (such as a healing character). Since it's also a push-based game like Team Fortress 2, game, this can be valuable information for a player who wants to help turn the tide of battle for their team.team. Eventually, the game was patched to flat-out prevented you from taking a hero someone else on your team is playing already, even in casual matches.
20th Sep '17 6:52:06 PM thatother1dude
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* ''VideoGame/{{Fallout|1}}'', ''VideoGame/{{Fallout 2}}'', and ''VideoGame/{{Fallout Tactics|BrotherhoodOfSteel}}'' do this with skill points. Raising a skill to 100 is done on a 1-for-1 basis. Raising it to 101 costs 2 skills points per rank. This quickly accelerates so that, by the time the skill is close to its cap at 300, it costs as many as 6 points per rank. Raising skills so high has its benefits, especially in ''Fallout 2'', where certain very high skills (such as Science and Speech) unlock special gear, quest solutions, and even party members, if you're willing to specialize. Being able to blow someone's head off with a sniper rifle from across the map doesn't hurt, either, and you'll need a Small Guns above 200 to do it.
* ''VideoGame/Fallout4'': Your damage taken is divided by approximately the ''cubic root'' of your Damage Resistance. This makes the early points very valuable (after clearing the threshold to do anything, about ~1/8 of attacks' damage, which is usually what happens), but subsequent points much less so--taking half as much damage requires getting about '''seven times''' as much DR. Consequently, while early game DR tends to be in the tens, PoweredArmor has to raise your DR to over a ''thousand'' to produce a noticeable effect.

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* ''VideoGame/{{Fallout|1}}'', ''VideoGame/{{Fallout 2}}'', ''VideoGame/{{Fallout}}'':
** In ''VideoGame/Fallout1'', ''VideoGame/Fallout2'',
and ''VideoGame/{{Fallout Tactics|BrotherhoodOfSteel}}'' do this with skill points. Raising a skill to 100 is done on a 1-for-1 skill point basis. Raising it to 101 costs 2 skills points per rank. This quickly accelerates so that, by the time the skill is close to its cap at 300, it costs as many as 6 points per rank. Raising skills so high has its benefits, especially in ''Fallout 2'', where certain very high skills (such as Science and Speech) unlock special gear, quest solutions, and even party members, if you're willing to specialize. Being able to blow someone's head off with a sniper rifle from across the map doesn't hurt, either, and you'll need a Small Guns above 200 to do it.
* ''VideoGame/Fallout4'': ** Your damage taken in ''VideoGame/Fallout4'' is divided by approximately the ''cubic root'' of your Damage Resistance. This makes the early points very valuable (after clearing the threshold to do anything, about ~1/8 ~1/7 of attacks' damage, which is usually what happens), generally very easy to achieve), but subsequent points much less so--taking half as much damage requires getting about '''seven times''' as much DR. Consequently, while early game DR tends to be in the tens, PoweredArmor has to raise your DR to over a ''thousand'' to produce a noticeable effect.
9th Sep '17 4:34:08 PM thatother1dude
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* ''VideoGame/Fallout4'': Your damage taken is divided by approximately the ''cubic root'' of your Damage Resistance. This makes the early points very value (after clearing the threshold to do anything, about ~1/8 of attacks' damage, which is usually what happens), but subsequent points much less so--taking half as much damage requires getting '''eight times''' as much DR. Consequently, while early game DR tends to be in the tens, PoweredArmor has to raise your DR to over a ''thousand'' to produce a noticeable effect.

to:

* ''VideoGame/Fallout4'': Your damage taken is divided by approximately the ''cubic root'' of your Damage Resistance. This makes the early points very value valuable (after clearing the threshold to do anything, about ~1/8 of attacks' damage, which is usually what happens), but subsequent points much less so--taking half as much damage requires getting '''eight about '''seven times''' as much DR. Consequently, while early game DR tends to be in the tens, PoweredArmor has to raise your DR to over a ''thousand'' to produce a noticeable effect.
5th Sep '17 4:06:23 PM thatother1dude
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* ''VideoGame/Fallout4'' has Armor rating (Ballistic Defense and Energy Defense) give diminished returns on damage reduction. For example, 60 Armor rating gives 30% damage reduction, but about 93 Armor rating turns into 40% damage reduction. And the difference between 560 Armor rating (T-45 Power Armor) and 1280 Armor rating (T-60 Power Armor) is 81% and 87% damage reduction respectively.
** It is useful to note, however, that when you are decreasing something by an absolute percentage, every extra percent becomes more powerful. By taking the provided example, when you increase damage reduction from 30% to 40%, you're not increasing the defense effectiveness by 10%. In practice, you've increased your damage reduction by 14.3% (60/70 = 0.857, calculating from the damage you'd receive from a 100 damage attack.) Likewise, increasing damage reduction from 81% to 87% you are effectively increasing your defense by 31.6% (13/19 = 0.684, calculating from a 100 damage attack, again). Look at it this way, if you had 10 000 HP, it'd take 143 attacks at 100 damage each at 30% reduction to kill you, but 167 attacks at the same strength at 40% reduction, and that's about 14.3% more attacks total needed to kill you. Likewise, it'd take 527 such attacks at 81% reduction, while at 87% this number is 770, a 31.6% increase. Another way to look at it is that if you are at 99% reduction and increase it by another single percent, you are increasing your defenses infinitely, as you are now ignoring 100% of all damage. Some games call this "effective health". At 50% reduction, you have 100% extra effective health. At 66%, only a 16% increase in total reduction, you already increased your effective health by 200%. At 75%, your effective health increased by 300%. At 80%, it is increased by 400%. At 83.3%, it is increased by roughly 500%. 600% at 85.7%. 700% at 87.5%. 800% at 88.8%. 900% at 90%. And so on. This is a lot of math to basically say that diminishing returns in damage reduction percentages are warranted, otherwise you'd easily reach invulnerability and later be HEALED by each attack.

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* ''VideoGame/Fallout4'' has Armor rating (Ballistic Defense and Energy Defense) give diminished returns on ''VideoGame/Fallout4'': Your damage reduction. For example, 60 Armor rating gives 30% taken is divided by approximately the ''cubic root'' of your Damage Resistance. This makes the early points very value (after clearing the threshold to do anything, about ~1/8 of attacks' damage, which is usually what happens), but subsequent points much less so--taking half as much damage reduction, but about 93 Armor rating turns into 40% damage reduction. And the difference between 560 Armor rating (T-45 Power Armor) and 1280 Armor rating (T-60 Power Armor) is 81% and 87% damage reduction respectively.
** It is useful to note, however, that when you are decreasing something by an absolute percentage, every extra percent becomes more powerful. By taking the provided example, when you increase damage reduction from 30% to 40%, you're not increasing the defense effectiveness by 10%. In practice, you've increased your damage reduction by 14.3% (60/70 = 0.857, calculating from the damage you'd receive from a 100 damage attack.) Likewise, increasing damage reduction from 81% to 87% you are effectively increasing your defense by 31.6% (13/19 = 0.684, calculating from a 100 damage attack, again). Look at it this way, if you had 10 000 HP, it'd take 143 attacks at 100 damage each at 30% reduction to kill you, but 167 attacks at the same strength at 40% reduction, and that's about 14.3% more attacks total needed to kill you. Likewise, it'd take 527 such attacks at 81% reduction,
requires getting '''eight times''' as much DR. Consequently, while at 87% this number is 770, a 31.6% increase. Another way early game DR tends to look at it is that if you are at 99% reduction and increase it by another single percent, you are increasing be in the tens, PoweredArmor has to raise your defenses infinitely, as you are now ignoring 100% of all damage. Some games call this "effective health". At 50% reduction, you have 100% extra effective health. At 66%, only a 16% increase in total reduction, you already increased your effective health by 200%. At 75%, your effective health increased by 300%. At 80%, it is increased by 400%. At 83.3%, it is increased by roughly 500%. 600% at 85.7%. 700% at 87.5%. 800% at 88.8%. 900% at 90%. And so on. This is a lot of math DR to basically say that diminishing returns in damage reduction percentages are warranted, otherwise you'd easily reach invulnerability and later be HEALED by each attack.over a ''thousand'' to produce a noticeable effect.
25th Apr '17 12:13:43 AM Schismatism
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* This is a common point in ''VideoGame/KingdomOfLoathing'', where almost everything - damage resistance, elemental resistance, combat frequency, you name it - eventually hits a point where diminishing returns kick in hard. Unlike many massively-multiplayer games, ''Kingdom of Loathing'' didn't ''start'' with many of these: they were added later on, in order to create a balanced situation.
6th Feb '17 11:02:56 PM SandroTheMaster
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Added DiffLines:

** It is useful to note, however, that when you are decreasing something by an absolute percentage, every extra percent becomes more powerful. By taking the provided example, when you increase damage reduction from 30% to 40%, you're not increasing the defense effectiveness by 10%. In practice, you've increased your damage reduction by 14.3% (60/70 = 0.857, calculating from the damage you'd receive from a 100 damage attack.) Likewise, increasing damage reduction from 81% to 87% you are effectively increasing your defense by 31.6% (13/19 = 0.684, calculating from a 100 damage attack, again). Look at it this way, if you had 10 000 HP, it'd take 143 attacks at 100 damage each at 30% reduction to kill you, but 167 attacks at the same strength at 40% reduction, and that's about 14.3% more attacks total needed to kill you. Likewise, it'd take 527 such attacks at 81% reduction, while at 87% this number is 770, a 31.6% increase. Another way to look at it is that if you are at 99% reduction and increase it by another single percent, you are increasing your defenses infinitely, as you are now ignoring 100% of all damage. Some games call this "effective health". At 50% reduction, you have 100% extra effective health. At 66%, only a 16% increase in total reduction, you already increased your effective health by 200%. At 75%, your effective health increased by 300%. At 80%, it is increased by 400%. At 83.3%, it is increased by roughly 500%. 600% at 85.7%. 700% at 87.5%. 800% at 88.8%. 900% at 90%. And so on. This is a lot of math to basically say that diminishing returns in damage reduction percentages are warranted, otherwise you'd easily reach invulnerability and later be HEALED by each attack.
4th Dec '16 8:27:40 AM Exxolon
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Of course, diminshing returns has its troubles. First, it's a lot more work, and takes a lot longer time to playtest and get just right. Second, if it's done poorly it just makes the game mechanics confusing; explaining to the player that, above a certain point, each point of Dexterity only provides 36.74% of the benefit of each previous point makes your game sound arcane and confusing. And if you don't explain it to them, astute players will feel cheated when they realize that they pushed all of their points into Strength and are getting no appreciable benefit from half of those stat points.

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Of course, diminshing diminishing returns has its troubles. First, it's a lot more work, and takes a lot longer time to playtest and get just right. Second, if it's done poorly it just makes the game mechanics confusing; explaining to the player that, above a certain point, each point of Dexterity only provides 36.74% of the benefit of each previous point makes your game sound arcane and confusing. And if you don't explain it to them, astute players will feel cheated when they realize that they pushed all of their points into Strength and are getting no appreciable benefit from half of those stat points.
17th Oct '16 2:29:57 AM Morgenthaler
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* Similarly, the ''NewWorldOfDarkness'' tends to encourage evening out one's portfolio past a certain level -- each new dot in a category typically costs its new rating multiplied by a flat rate, so buying the fourth dot in an Attribute from the third costs twice as much as buying the second dot in an Attribute up from the first. Similarly, the character-creation rules make the fifth dot in a Trait (out of a normal maximum of five dots) cost twice as many of starting points to buy.

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* Similarly, the ''NewWorldOfDarkness'' ''TabletopGame/NewWorldOfDarkness'' tends to encourage evening out one's portfolio past a certain level -- each new dot in a category typically costs its new rating multiplied by a flat rate, so buying the fourth dot in an Attribute from the third costs twice as much as buying the second dot in an Attribute up from the first. Similarly, the character-creation rules make the fifth dot in a Trait (out of a normal maximum of five dots) cost twice as many of starting points to buy.



* Skills in ''{{GURPS}}'' start to give noticeably diminishing returns around level 14 (90% chance on normal tasks) and additional levels become a total waste of points at level 24 (90% chance on "impossible" tasks) except in the most extreme settings where techniques can have penalties of -30.

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* Skills in ''{{GURPS}}'' ''TabletopGame/{{GURPS}}'' start to give noticeably diminishing returns around level 14 (90% chance on normal tasks) and additional levels become a total waste of points at level 24 (90% chance on "impossible" tasks) except in the most extreme settings where techniques can have penalties of -30.



* ''[[ProseDescriptiveQualities Swashbucklers of the 7 Skies]]'' employs similar ability improvement to the aforementioned ''Franchise/TheElderScrolls'' video game series: you only gain points to improve your abilities when you ''fail''. Characters who max out an ability and then focus exclusively on it are going to advance very slowly, if at all, while those who dabble in many things or throw themselves into scenarios where they've got no real skill are going to develop faster.
* SeventhSea has an unusual version of this. Each game session a player starts with a number of hero points equal to their ''lowest'' stat. If unused, these hero points become experience points at the end of a session. Depending on your sessions this can increase your net gain somewhere between 50 and 100%. So the character who put two in all his stats will gain experience points faster than the person who has a wit of 1 and a finesse of 3. (and this lets him earn his third points faster, causing the divide to grow even faster)

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* ''[[ProseDescriptiveQualities ''[[TabletopGame/ProseDescriptiveQualities Swashbucklers of the 7 Skies]]'' employs similar ability improvement to the aforementioned ''Franchise/TheElderScrolls'' video game series: you only gain points to improve your abilities when you ''fail''. Characters who max out an ability and then focus exclusively on it are going to advance very slowly, if at all, while those who dabble in many things or throw themselves into scenarios where they've got no real skill are going to develop faster.
* SeventhSea ''TabletopGame/SeventhSea'' has an unusual version of this. Each game session a player starts with a number of hero points equal to their ''lowest'' stat. If unused, these hero points become experience points at the end of a session. Depending on your sessions this can increase your net gain somewhere between 50 and 100%. So the character who put two in all his stats will gain experience points faster than the person who has a wit of 1 and a finesse of 3. (and this lets him earn his third points faster, causing the divide to grow even faster)
3rd Oct '16 4:35:45 AM Morgenthaler
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* ''[[ERepublik [=eRepublik=]]]'' skill training works like this, in the case of strength when you start out you gain .5 every time you train, by the time you hit 4 strength this is down to .04 every time you train.

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* ''[[ERepublik [=eRepublik=]]]'' ''VideoGame/ERepublik'' skill training works like this, in the case of strength when you start out you gain .5 every time you train, by the time you hit 4 strength this is down to .04 every time you train.
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