History Main / DevilButNoGod

22nd Sep '17 10:36:39 AM AHI-3000
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* In ''WesternAnimation/SamuraiJack'', there is a very powerful (and god-like) demon named [[EldritchAbomination Aku]], who has [[TakeOverTheWorld conquered]] not just the world, but the whole ''galaxy'' as well. While there are some good gods (such as [[Myth/NorseMythology Odin]], [[Myth/EgyptianMythology Ra]], and [[Myth/HinduMythology Vishnu]]) who are quite capable of destroying Aku, they have decided to [[TheGodsMustBeLazy just leave the responsibility]] of killing him to [[TheChosenOne Jack]], who despite [[BadassNormal all his skills]], is [[JokerImmunity still not even close to defeating Aku yet]].

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* In ''WesternAnimation/SamuraiJack'', there is a very powerful (and god-like) demon named [[EldritchAbomination Aku]], who has [[TakeOverTheWorld conquered]] not just the world, but the whole ''galaxy'' as well. While there are some good gods (such as [[Myth/NorseMythology Odin]], [[Myth/EgyptianMythology Ra]], and [[Myth/HinduMythology Vishnu]]) Rama]]) who are implied to be quite capable of destroying Aku, for some unknown reasons [[AllPowerfulBystander they have decided to won't intervene directly]], [[TheGodsMustBeLazy and just leave the responsibility]] of killing him Aku to [[TheChosenOne Jack]], Jack]]; a mortal man who despite [[BadassNormal all his superb fighting skills]], is was [[JokerImmunity still not even close to defeating Aku]] at the time. [[spoiler:Well, at least until Jack does successfully destroy Aku yet]].in the [[GrandFinale final episode]].]]
6th Sep '17 9:52:31 PM PaulA
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** Notably, the Elder Gods were an addition by August Derleth, who was an avid admirer of Lovecraft, as well as a devout Christian, and couldn't or didn't want to understand Lovecraft's intentions to depict the universe as a hostile and uncaring place where humanity has absolutely no special position, and instead made Earth the central battleground for cosmic incarnations of good and evil. Latter contributors to the Mythos often kept the Elder Gods, but made them less "good" than "uncaring but opposed to more dangerous things".

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** Notably, the Elder Gods were an addition by August Derleth, Creator/AugustDerleth, who was an avid admirer of Lovecraft, as well as a devout Christian, and couldn't or didn't want to understand Lovecraft's intentions to depict the universe as a hostile and uncaring place where humanity has absolutely no special position, and instead made Earth the central battleground for cosmic incarnations of good and evil. Latter contributors to the Mythos often kept the Elder Gods, but made them less "good" than "uncaring but opposed to more dangerous things".



*** That's something of a case of {{Flanderization}} by later writers. In Lovecraft's own stories he has two appearances in human form, and one in near-human. In first of those he isn't yet really a deity, but simply a human scientist who has become essentially an AnthropomorphicPersonification of the immutable cosmic laws (it's a MindScrew), and is simply driven rather than malevolent or cruel, as far as the reader can tell. He receives human sacrifices in person as the Black Man, but he never speaks in that story and gives no impression of sadism for its own sake - it's just a function that he is performing. His depiction as a creatively cruel monster trickster is mostly based on his appearance in ''The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath'', where he once again is performing a role as the protector of the Great Ones - though while clearly holding them in contempt. But even as he torments Carter with false hope, he seems to deem him a WorthyOpponent, facing him directly instead of just letting his masters squash him like a bug, as had happened to everyone else who tried to see Earth's gods.

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*** That's something of a case of {{Flanderization}} by later writers. In Lovecraft's own stories he has two appearances in human form, and one in near-human. In first of those he isn't yet really a deity, but simply a human scientist who has become essentially an AnthropomorphicPersonification of the immutable cosmic laws (it's a MindScrew), and is simply driven rather than malevolent or cruel, as far as the reader can tell. He receives human sacrifices in person as the Black Man, but he never speaks in that story and gives no impression of sadism for its own sake - it's just a function that he is performing. His depiction as a creatively cruel monster trickster is mostly based on his appearance in ''The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath'', ''Literature/TheDreamQuestOfUnknownKadath'', where he once again is performing a role as the protector of the Great Ones - though while clearly holding them in contempt. But even as he torments Carter with false hope, he seems to deem him a WorthyOpponent, facing him directly instead of just letting his masters squash him like a bug, as had happened to everyone else who tried to see Earth's gods.
25th Jul '17 12:43:02 PM RoninMacbeth
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* ''{{TabletopGame/Pathfinder}}'': [[SatanicArchetype Asmodeus]] is the LawfulEvil [[EvilCounterpart Counterpart]] to [[CrystalDragonJesus Ihys]], his ChaoticGood brother. Naturally, [[CainAndAbel Asmodeus killed Ihys]]. Of course, given that Asmodeus isn't known for being a particularly honest deity, [[UnreliableNarrator it's possible that he made the whole thing up]]. The point is that the closest equivalent to the Abrahamic God doesn't exist, but the closest equivalent to the devil does.
12th Jul '17 4:08:32 PM TheNerevarine
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* In Creator/ChaosComics, both Heaven and Hell are real and while Lucifer has long since being ousted by ComicBook/LadyDeath and still plots to regain his throne, God has seemingly abandoned this universe to its fate and is nowhere to be seen, leaving the angels completely leaderless. With that said, the Norse Pantheon is also part of the setting but they play a periferal role before they get defeated and enslaved by ComicBook/{{Purgatori}}.


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* In ''VideoGame/{{Darksiders}}'', a figure known as the Creator has existed for untold millennia and made countless races, including angels and demons. However, he left [[PowersThatBe the Charred Council]] to preserve the balance between these species and prevent them from threatening all of existence. With them as the mediator, the Creator doesn't intervene and is implied to have also abandoned its creation long ago.
11th Jul '17 5:55:01 PM ferg
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** Robot Jesus is also mentioned. Jewish Robots believe that He existed and that He was a very well-made robot, but He wasn't their Messiah.

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** Robot Jesus is also mentioned. Jewish Robots believe that He he existed and that He he was a very well-made robot, but He he wasn't their Messiah.
9th Jun '17 11:19:00 AM WillBGood
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** This is a CorruptChurch with a purpose. The preservation of the entire space-time continuum is a pretty rock bottom obligation, and [[ExtremistHasAPoint the demons and devil worshipers it was designed to fight are real]].

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** This is a CorruptChurch with a purpose. The preservation of the entire space-time continuum is a pretty rock bottom obligation, and [[ExtremistHasAPoint [[TheExtremistWasRight the demons and devil worshipers it was designed to fight are real]].
28th May '17 4:43:56 PM MadAnthony94
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** The Living Saints may serve as angelic counterparts to daemons, being powered by faith and mental discipline where daemons are fueled by negative emotions and desires (daemons of Law, if you will- which would make the Emperor a Law God, but that's beside the point). But they've never gotten as much attention as the Chaos Gods and has little fluff, and unlike the forces of Chaos they don't seem to have any domain in the Warp.
22nd May '17 10:29:12 AM BeerBaron
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* Prevalent in ''Franchise/TheElderScrolls'' series, with the supposed conflict between (the adherents of) The Nine Divines and the Daedra Lords. The Daedra Lords, while not universally evil (some are, in fact, quite decent people, and all tend to hold up their end of a bargain), tend to be amoral, unpredictable, sadistic and, on occasion, prone to attempting world conquest. They are universally reviled as 'evil', and their worshipers are considered misguided at best, and dangerous lunatics at worst. They ''are'', however, very much present in the world. They speak directly to their worshipers, sometimes even appearing in a physical form, and are perfectly willing to offer immediate, tangible rewards for those that choose to do their work. The Nine, on the other hand, do very little, apart from their altars supposedly granting blessings and healing diseases, which any semi-competent spellcaster could pull ''that'' off. The main time the Divines intervene is during the Knights Of The Nine, when [[spoiler: the prophet of the Nine gives you a new ability, which he says comes from the god Talos, and will allow you to kill the Big Bad of the game's arc [[DeaderThanDead in the dimension he goes to get a new body.]] After the battle, you die too, only to come back after a few days. The only explanation anyone can offer is that the divines brought you back]]. You are the only one to directly benefit from divine interventions in game, apart from a major intervention in a spoiler below.
** This is mentioned by the Oblivion NPC Else God Hater, a [[spoiler:Daedra Lord worshiper]]. "The gods don't do a damn thing. Do they even exist? How could anyone tell? Daedra Lords, sure. They exist. They do things. Bad things, mostly, but things you can see. The gods? They don't do a damn thing. So why do we build big chapels and sit around and mumble, and ask them to save us from this and that? It's stupid. And chapels and priests and folks groveling on their knees, they're stupid, too."
*** The court mage in Oblivion's Cheydinhal castle asks if you worship the Nine Divines, asking rhetorically if they've ever helped or harmed the PC. She states that were the hero to worship a daedra lord, they would get results. Bad ones, but measurable results. She then states that she considers worshiping gods a waste of time, though the daedra cult of Azura are a nice, reasonable bunch.
** While not in Oblivion, in ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsIIIMorrowind Morrowind]]'', you did in fact meet what is implied to be avatars of the Nine Divine (Stendarr & Mara in sidequests, Talos during the Main Quest), who reward the hero/heroine according to the action they take.
*** There are also Vivec, Sotha Sil, and Almalexia, the Tribunal, who are a trio of supposedly good {{Physical God}}s. Then again, they're not ''natural'' gods, and two of them die.
** In ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsIVOblivion Oblivion]]'' you see the [[spoiler: Avatar of Akatosh when he comes to defeat Mehrunes Dagon, but only after Martin sacrifices himself to call on its power]].
** ''Oblivion'' and ''Morrowind'' drop huge metaphysical bombshells on this subject. As it turns out [[spoiler: the world as you know it is possibly Lorkhan's daedra realm, therefore men, elves, the missing dwarves and all animals or monsters, you're probably all daedra. Daedra have unearthly and demonic connotations, but only because people are ignorant of the fact that they and the animals or monsters that live around them are likely the metaphysical equals of the 'demons' that live in other realms. Hell, there are extremely "human" daedra and the magic of men and daedra are not only equivalent but work based on the same fundamental rules. The "gods" or Aedra do exist, or at least one of them does, and the story goes that most were daedric servants who rebelled against the realm's trickster creator god. The person who floats the idea seems ignorant about a lot of metaphysical trivia, is somewhat bonkers, might be lying due to his being a villain, and is unsupported by any other source on TES cosmology, thus probably meaning he's wrong about this]].
*** In ''Morrowind'', it was stated that the Daedra are eternal and can never be destroyed. The Aedra (the nicer gods) on the other hand are terribly powerful and ageless but can perish and indeed some of their number have been slain in the past. It therefore makes sense that they would seldom intervene in worldly affairs, as it risks their existence whereas the Daedra can happily engage in whatever plots they wish knowing that any defeat will only be temporary. This seems a little more likely than the point of view espoused in Oblivion, but its hard to tell either way from in-universe sources.
*** Also in ''Morrowind'', the theory is floated that Mundus (specifically the moons Masser and Secunda) isn't just Lorkhan's realm: it's [[UsefulNotes/{{Pantheism}} Lorkhan's substance]], his own body. He died making it, and now he is one with the land everyone lives on. This might explain why his still-beating heart is stuck under a mountain. So, there's a DevilButNoGod because GodIsDead. On the upside, [[DoesThisRemindYouOfAnything God died so that we might live.]]

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* Prevalent ''Franchise/TheElderScrolls''
** This is prevalent
in ''Franchise/TheElderScrolls'' series, with the supposed conflict religious conflicts between (the adherents of) the worshipers of the [[OurGodsAreDifferent Nine Divines]] and those of the [[OurGodsAreDifferent Daedric Princes]]. The Church of the Nine Divines and is more or less a SaintlyChurch, which has been uniformly benevolent throughout the series. However, the "Divines" they worship (also known as the Aedra, which means "our ancestors" in old [[ConLang Aldmeris]]) sacrificed much of their power during the creation of Mundus, the mortal plane. As a result it has left them much weaker than the Daedra Lords. ("not our ancestors") who made no sacrifices during creation. Preferring a much lighter touch when intervening on mortal affairs, many mortals question whether the Divines even exist. The Daedra Lords, Daedric Princes, while not universally evil (some are, in fact, quite decent people, benevolent, and all tend to hold up their end of a bargain), tend to be amoral, unpredictable, sadistic and, on occasion, prone to attempting world conquest. They are universally reviled as 'evil', and their worshipers are considered misguided at best, and dangerous lunatics at worst. They ''are'', however, very much present in the world. They speak directly to their worshipers, sometimes even appearing in a physical form, and are perfectly willing to offer immediate, tangible rewards for those that choose to do their work. The Nine, on work.
*** While
the other hand, do very little, apart from their altars supposedly granting blessings and healing diseases, which any semi-competent spellcaster could pull ''that'' off. The main time trope is played straight in the eyes of many denizens of Tamriel, the [[PlayerCharacter protagonist]] of each game tends to have the support the Divines intervene is during in order to accomplish what they seek to do. ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsIVOblivion Oblivion]]'''s ''Knights Of the Knights Nine'' expansion and the main quest of ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsVSkyrim Skyrim]]'' best exemplify this. During the ''Knights Of The Nine, Nine'', when [[spoiler: the prophet Prophet of the Nine gives you a new ability, which he says comes from the god Talos, and will allow you to kill the Big Bad of the game's arc [[DeaderThanDead in the dimension he goes to get a new body.]] After the battle, you die too, only to come back after a few days. The only explanation anyone can offer is that the divines brought you back]]. You are the only one to directly benefit from divine interventions in game, apart from a major intervention in a spoiler below.
**
below. In ''Skyrim'', very early in the main quest, the PC is revealed to be a "Dragonborn", a rare mortal gifted with the soul of an immortal (Aedric) dragon by the draconic God of Time, Akatosh.
*** The [[OurElvesAreBetter Dunmer (Dark Elves)]] have an interesting take on this. In general, they acknowledge that the Daedric Princes that they do revere - Azura, Boethiah, and Mephala - are actually ruthless, vicious and brutal entities; even Azura, the most benevolent of those Princes, still cursed the whole species for the actions of the Tribunal. At the same time, the Dunmer view everyone else, Aedra and Daedra alike, as either [[TricksterGod lying tricksters]], [[GodIsInept ineffectually weak]], or [[GodOfEvil uselessly malicious]]. (By comparison, Boethiah and Mephala are ''[[TrainingFromHell usefully]]'' malicious, as they [[HadToBeSharp taught the Dunmer how to survive in a harsh environment through their maliciousness]].) It's not really surprising that the only gods the Dunmer truly revered as benevolent were [[DeityOfHumanOrigin ALMSIVI]], or the Tribunal, a trio of {{Physical God}}s who were a major part of Dunmer culture from the mid-1st Era to end of the 3rd Era 4000 years later. [[spoiler:All of whom are depowered and two of whom die as a result of the events of ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsIIIMorrowind Morrowind]]'']].
***
This is mentioned by the Oblivion ''Oblivion'' NPC Else God Hater, a [[spoiler:Daedra Lord worshiper]]. "The gods don't do a damn thing. Do they even exist? How could anyone tell? Daedra Lords, sure. They exist. They do things. Bad things, mostly, but things you can see. The gods? They don't do a damn thing. So why do we build big chapels and sit around and mumble, and ask them to save us from this and that? It's stupid. And chapels and priests and folks groveling on their knees, they're stupid, too."
*** The court mage in Oblivion's ''Oblivion'''s Cheydinhal castle asks if you worship the Nine Divines, asking rhetorically if they've ever helped or harmed the PC. She states that were the hero to worship a daedra lord, they would get results. Bad ones, but measurable results. She then states that she considers worshiping gods a waste of time, though the daedra cult of Azura are a nice, reasonable bunch.
** While not in Oblivion, in ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsIIIMorrowind Morrowind]]'', you did in fact meet what is implied to be avatars of the Nine Divine (Stendarr & Mara in sidequests, Talos during the Main Quest), who reward the hero/heroine according to the action they take.
*** There are also Vivec, Sotha Sil, and Almalexia, the Tribunal, who are a trio of supposedly good {{Physical God}}s. Then again, they're not ''natural'' gods, and two of them die.
** In ''[[VideoGame/TheElderScrollsIVOblivion Oblivion]]'' you see the [[spoiler: Avatar of Akatosh when he comes to defeat Mehrunes Dagon, but only after Martin sacrifices himself to call on its power]].
** ''Oblivion'' and ''Morrowind'' drop huge metaphysical bombshells on this subject. As it turns out [[spoiler: the world as you know it is possibly Lorkhan's daedra realm, therefore men, elves, the missing dwarves and all animals or monsters, you're probably all daedra. Daedra have unearthly and demonic connotations, but only because people are ignorant of the fact that they and the animals or monsters that live around them are likely the metaphysical equals of the 'demons' that live in other realms. Hell, there are extremely "human" daedra and the magic of men and daedra are not only equivalent but work based on the same fundamental rules. The "gods" or Aedra do exist, or at least one of them does, and the story goes that most were daedric servants who rebelled against the realm's trickster creator god. The person who floats the idea seems ignorant about a lot of metaphysical trivia, is somewhat bonkers, might be lying due to his being a villain, and is unsupported by any other source on TES cosmology, thus probably meaning he's wrong about this]].
*** In ''Morrowind'', it was stated that the Daedra are eternal and can never be destroyed. The Aedra (the nicer gods) on the other hand are terribly powerful and ageless but can perish and indeed some of their number have been slain in the past. It therefore makes sense that they would seldom intervene in worldly affairs, as it risks their existence whereas the Daedra can happily engage in whatever plots they wish knowing that any defeat will only be temporary. This seems a little more likely than the point of view espoused in Oblivion, but its hard to tell either way from in-universe sources.
*** Also in ''Morrowind'', the theory is floated that Mundus (specifically the moons Masser and Secunda) isn't just Lorkhan's realm: it's [[UsefulNotes/{{Pantheism}} Lorkhan's substance]], his own body. He died making it, and now he is one with the land everyone lives on. This might explain why his still-beating heart is stuck under a mountain. So, there's a DevilButNoGod because GodIsDead. On the upside, [[DoesThisRemindYouOfAnything God died so that we might live.]]
bunch.
11th May '17 8:41:51 PM YenSid13
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** The question of the Abrahamic God's possible existence (or at least the existence of an all-powerful creator deity) is brought up in the Stargate Universe spin-off series in several episodes such as "Faith" were the crew find a star system with a paradise planet that should not exist there due to it's age not matching it's state and the fact that the Ancient Seed Ships didn't detect it when passing through the location. It was revealed to be created by an extraordinarily advanced race of beings (who may or may not be Ascended Beings) between the time Seed Ships passed through and Destiny arrived which is give or take 2000 years. Some characters believe the aliens are a higher power or God or both and choose to stay with no proof one way or the other.
**Later, these same aliens seemingly save T.J.s baby from dying in the womb after a gunshot wound and sent it to the planet to live there via non-physical means however it may have been a dream induced by the Destiny's A.I. considering later on again the crew from the planet return without the baby having been resurrected after dying from the harsh winter there and sent back only to die again shortly after. One of them believes the aliens restored their bodies but not their souls and that T.J's baby is in a better place but these is neither confirmed nor denied.
**Finally it's revealed during the series that the Ancients discovered a signal or pattern or some form of intelligence embedded deep within the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation of the universe which existed prior to the universe's creation indicating the either the existence of an far older and more advanced Precursor race than the Ancients (possibly the aliens who built the star system) or God or even both. However the series was cancelled before it had a chance to resolve these storylines.
2nd May '17 10:49:00 PM Multiplesarcasms31
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* The universe of ''Series/[[AmericanHorrorStory]] seems to fall into this. Satan, The Antichrist, and other malevolent deities make frequent appearances throughout the series but God or other benevolent deities are nowhere to be found. The only forces that appear on the show that aren't explicitly evil are either morally gray or indifferent towards humanity.

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* The universe of ''Series/[[AmericanHorrorStory]] ''Series/AmericanHorrorStory'' seems to fall into this. Satan, The Antichrist, and other malevolent deities make frequent appearances throughout the series but God or other benevolent deities are nowhere to be found. The only forces that appear on the show that aren't explicitly evil are either morally gray or indifferent towards humanity.
This list shows the last 10 events of 338. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.DevilButNoGod