History Main / DebateAndSwitch

7th May '18 3:36:23 PM Aquillion
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* ''Manga/{{Naruto}}'' made a major plot point being the villain's plan to lock everyone in the world into [[LotusEaterMachine their own personal dream world that would give them their every desire]]. Whether or not this would ultimately be a good thing for a world that raises child soldiers is glossed over in favor of discussing how villainous the means of the people trying to set it off are using. Later on it's also added that the plan also slowly turns people into empty zombies, making the initial debate further removed by having the dream world be fatal. Likewise, once people are released their reactions are glossed over and no one expresses any interest at all over their dream worlds despite how easily traumatic it would be for many of them to see lost loved ones again thinking they were real.

to:

* ''Manga/{{Naruto}}'' made a major plot point being the villain's plan to lock everyone in the world into [[LotusEaterMachine their own personal dream world that would give them their every desire]]. Whether or not this would ultimately be a good thing for a world that raises child soldiers is glossed over in favor of discussing how villainous the means of the people trying to set it off are using. Later on it's also added that the plan also slowly turns people into empty zombies, making the initial debate further removed by having the dream world be fatal. Likewise, once people are released their reactions are glossed over and no one expresses any interest at all over their dream worlds despite how easily traumatic it would be for many of them to see lost loved ones again thinking they were real. And then even ''that'' is rendered moot when [[spoiler:it turns out the whole thing is being manipulated to resurrect a BiggerBad whose goals are much less defensible.]]
7th May '18 5:23:26 AM ImpudentInfidel
Is there an issue? Send a Message


** The Seska arc introduces a wildly complicated question when Seska reveals that she forcibly stole Chakotay's DNA and impregnanted herself with it, and later begs for his help when she and his son are in danger. How he's supposed to respond to that is agonizingly difficult. To the show's credit, they do spend a good deal of time dealing with these questions, but they're ultimately rendered moot when it turns out that the child isn't actually Chakotay's after all. Seska dies, the baby's biological father claims him, and [[StatusQuoIsGod everything goes back to normal]].

to:

** The Seska arc introduces a wildly complicated question when Seska reveals that she forcibly stole Chakotay's DNA and impregnanted herself with it, and later begs for his help when she and his son are in danger. How he's supposed to respond to that is agonizingly difficult. To the show's credit, they do spend a good deal of time dealing with these questions, questions (Chakotay decides to try and get custody and raise him after the spirit quest version of his father makes the observation that the boy is essentially a ChildByRape), but they're ultimately rendered moot when it turns out that the child isn't actually Chakotay's after all. Seska dies, the baby's biological father claims him, and [[StatusQuoIsGod everything goes back to normal]].
5th Apr '18 9:34:06 AM CaptainCrawdad
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* Averted [[WordOfGod (due to the Star Trek episodes above)]] in the First Season ''Series/Babylon5'' episode "Believers". An alien child has a life threatening problem which can be solved with simple surgery, but his parents believe that surgery will leave him soulless. Dr. Franklin attempts to [[InvokedTrope invoke this trope]] because he know they'll just be happy to see their son alive. As expected, although they initially claim their child is a soulless monster now, they calmed down quickly and accepted Franklin's decision before bringing the boy home. [[spoiler:Metaphorically - Franklin finds out what exactly the "Travelling Robe" the boy was wearing meant, just in time to find the parents standing over the corpse of the ritually murdered child.]]
17th Mar '18 4:11:42 PM Fireblood
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* ''Literature/TheDispossessed'' by Creator/UrsulaKLeGuin can be read as a dramatized debate over the question of whether anarchism, represented by the "Odonian" philosophy practised on the planet Anarres, or liberal democratic capitalism, represented by the nation of A-Io on Anarres' sister-planet Urras, is better. Though the author clearly prefers anarchism, for most of the book the question is dealt with subtly, with the failings of Anarresti society and the successes of the society of A-Io both being shown. Then, practically out of the blue, A-Io massacres peaceful protesters by the thousand. Well, ''duh'', Anarresti anarchism is better than ''that''. The whole philosophical debate is tossed aside and replaced by Baddies Are Bad.

to:

* ''Literature/TheDispossessed'' by Creator/UrsulaKLeGuin can be read as a dramatized debate over the question of whether anarchism, represented by the "Odonian" philosophy practised on the planet Anarres, or liberal democratic capitalism, represented by the nation of A-Io on Anarres' sister-planet Urras, is better. Though the author clearly prefers anarchism, for most of the book the question is dealt with subtly, with the failings of Anarresti society and the successes of the society of A-Io both being shown. Then, practically out of the blue, A-Io massacres peaceful protesters by the thousand. Well, ''duh'', Anarresti anarchism is better than ''that''. The whole philosophical debate is tossed aside and replaced by Baddies Are Bad. In an interesting case, the A-Io's actions are understandable, though not justified - they remember what the last strike led to, and they are all out of moons to bribe dissidents with. It's also probably worth noting that, while massacres of striking workers weren't common in 1970s America, they were common in America at the turn of the century, so this could also simply be a case of Anachronism Stew, but it seems probable that A-Io is meant to represent an older US, as the US of the 1970s certainly also did not prohibit women from universities, for example-much the opposite.
17th Mar '18 4:10:19 PM Fireblood
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* Literature/TheDispossessed by Creator/UrsulaKLeGuin can be read as a dramatized debate over the question of whether anarchism, represented by the "Odonian" philosophy practised on the planet Anarres, or liberal democratic capitalism, represented by the nation of A-Io on Anarres' sister-planet Urras, is better. Though the author clearly prefers anarchism, for most of the book the question is dealt with subtly, with the failings of Anarresti society and the successes of the society of A-Io both being shown. Then, practically out of the blue, A-Io massacres peaceful protestors by the thousand. Well, ''duh'', Anarresti anarchism is better than ''that''. The whole philosophical debate is tossed aside and replaced by Baddies Are Bad.

to:

* Literature/TheDispossessed ''Literature/TheDispossessed'' by Creator/UrsulaKLeGuin can be read as a dramatized debate over the question of whether anarchism, represented by the "Odonian" philosophy practised on the planet Anarres, or liberal democratic capitalism, represented by the nation of A-Io on Anarres' sister-planet Urras, is better. Though the author clearly prefers anarchism, for most of the book the question is dealt with subtly, with the failings of Anarresti society and the successes of the society of A-Io both being shown. Then, practically out of the blue, A-Io massacres peaceful protestors protesters by the thousand. Well, ''duh'', Anarresti anarchism is better than ''that''. The whole philosophical debate is tossed aside and replaced by Baddies Are Bad.
17th Mar '18 3:59:18 PM Fireblood
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* ''The Contender'': So, will Laine win the Vice Presidency despite the furore of controversy surrounding her? Will she prove to the world that the bending of the truth and exposure of someone's shady moral history should never be used for political gain and need not necessarily ruin your chances of a high-powered career? [[spoiler:Never mind, the girl in the photos wasn't actually her after all. Oh, and her main rival's a backstabbing liar.]] Crisis averted.
* Some see the whole movie of ''Fighting the Odds: The Marilyn Gambrell Story'' as this. The problem with this movie is that it brings up a lot of issues without actually talking about them. Particularly the complicated socio-economic background of most of the kids.
* ''Film/CaptainAmericaCivilWar'' - Peacekeepers must have permission to operate, and must answer for their actions, but they must also refuse illegal orders. Should Avengers submit to the UN or not? This is presented as the initial conflict, but it's later switched over by Bucky Barnes being accused of murder (for which he was framed, anyway).

to:

* ''The Contender'': ''Film/TheContender'': So, will Laine win the Vice Presidency despite the furore furor of controversy surrounding her? Will she prove to the world that the bending of the truth and exposure of someone's shady moral history should never be used for political gain and need not necessarily ruin your chances of a high-powered career? [[spoiler:Never mind, the girl in the photos wasn't actually her after all. Oh, and her main rival's a backstabbing liar.]] Crisis averted.
* Some see the whole movie of ''Fighting the Odds: The Marilyn Gambrell Story'' as this. The problem with this movie is that it brings up a lot of issues without actually talking about them. Particularly the complicated socio-economic socioeconomic background of most of the kids.
* ''Film/CaptainAmericaCivilWar'' - ''Film/CaptainAmericaCivilWar'': Peacekeepers must have permission to operate, and must answer for their actions, but they must also refuse illegal orders. Should Avengers submit to the UN or not? This is presented as the initial conflict, but it's later switched over by Bucky Barnes being accused of murder (for which he was framed, anyway).
14th Mar '18 12:48:34 PM GoldenWyvern
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

* Averted [[WordOfGod (due to the Star Trek episodes above)]] in the First Season ''Series/Babylon5'' episode "Believers". An alien child has a life threatening problem which can be solved with simple surgery, but his parents believe that surgery will leave him soulless. Dr. Franklin attempts to [[InvokedTrope invoke this trope]] because he know they'll just be happy to see their son alive. As expected, although they initially claim their child is a soulless monster now, they calmed down quickly and accepted Franklin's decision before bringing the boy home. [[spoiler:Metaphorically - Franklin finds out what exactly the "Travelling Robe" the boy was wearing meant, just in time to find the parents standing over the corpse of the ritually murdered child.]]
25th Feb '18 10:14:26 PM nombretomado
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* Played for laughs in ''Literature/DirkGentlysHolisticDetectiveAgency'', when Dirk relates the tale of some physicists who attempted to carry out the SchrodingersCat experiment for real. When they opened the box, they discovered that the cat had got bored and wandered off somewhere.

to:

* Played for laughs in ''Literature/DirkGentlysHolisticDetectiveAgency'', when Dirk relates the tale of some physicists who attempted to carry out the SchrodingersCat UsefulNotes/SchrodingersCat experiment for real. When they opened the box, they discovered that the cat had got bored and wandered off somewhere.
12th Jan '18 9:27:28 PM erforce
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* Similarly, with ''Comicbook/XMen'', [[SuperRegistrationAct Mutant Registration Acts]] are never given an actual debate. It's sometimes acknowledged that, hey, these are people with the power to level mountains just by opening their eyes and reasonable people might want some means of protection from the bad ones, but the Act is nearly always being pushed by bigots who are using it as the first step in wiping out mutantkind. Even when the promoter is ''not'' such a bigot, the specter of such information still being used ''by'' bigots to facilitate FantasticRacism remains omnipresent. The very first BadFuture plotline, ''ComicBook/DaysOfFuturePast'', revolves around the dark world created by enforcing mutant registration, where mutants are forcibly marked and herded into concentration camps, or even exterminated altogether. Animated depictions usually take away the moral ambiguity by portraying such a world as mostly being the fault of the [[AIIsACrapshoot defective programming]] of the [[GiantRobot Sentinels]] humans use to enforce the registration laws.

to:

* Similarly, with ''Comicbook/XMen'', ''ComicBook/XMen'', [[SuperRegistrationAct Mutant Registration Acts]] are never given an actual debate. It's sometimes acknowledged that, hey, these are people with the power to level mountains just by opening their eyes and reasonable people might want some means of protection from the bad ones, but the Act is nearly always being pushed by bigots who are using it as the first step in wiping out mutantkind. Even when the promoter is ''not'' such a bigot, the specter of such information still being used ''by'' bigots to facilitate FantasticRacism remains omnipresent. The very first BadFuture plotline, ''ComicBook/DaysOfFuturePast'', revolves around the dark world created by enforcing mutant registration, where mutants are forcibly marked and herded into concentration camps, or even exterminated altogether. Animated depictions usually take away the moral ambiguity by portraying such a world as mostly being the fault of the [[AIIsACrapshoot defective programming]] of the [[GiantRobot Sentinels]] humans use to enforce the registration laws.



* ''Film/XMen'':

to:

* ''Film/XMen'':''Film/XMenFilmSeries''
7th Dec '17 8:20:57 PM PaulA
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* This happens in ''Mercy''. The whole thing is about the ethical issues of euthanasia and mercy killing, and it turns out that... oh, wait, it doesn't. Not only do we not get an overall view on euthanasia, we don't even get to find out the views of 90% of the ''characters''. It's the kind of 'debate' where people stand around chatting and occasionally eat a biscuit.

to:

* ** This happens in ''Mercy''. The whole thing is about the ethical issues of euthanasia and mercy killing, and it turns out that... oh, wait, it doesn't. Not only do we not get an overall view on euthanasia, we don't even get to find out the views of 90% of the ''characters''. It's the kind of 'debate' where people stand around chatting and occasionally eat a biscuit.
This list shows the last 10 events of 198. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.DebateAndSwitch