History Main / DebateAndSwitch

23rd Sep '17 2:41:49 PM jamescamera
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* In ''VideoGame/Persona4'', the Investigation Team confronts the true culprit [[spoiler:Adachi]], who outlines his beliefs on how Japanese society and life in general is complete crap. Specifically how people were separated into two groups as birth; those with a ticket to success (genetic good looks, a good voice, born into a good family, ect), and those who aren't. Those in the latter have no choice but to accept this fact, and work their asses off to make up for not having that "ticket", despite the entire world constantly pushing them down. Society accepts that this is "normal" and that this is how things are meant to be, so anyone who rightfully complains about it is pushed down as a whiner, resulting in the quiet, silent voices of the masses screaming out for a change that is never going to happen. This entire point is never tackled directly by the Investigation Team, who instead essentially tell [[spoiler:Adachi]] that his opinions don't matter, and that he should grow more of a backbone.
27th Aug '17 12:13:31 AM SSJMagus
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** In ''Film/XMen1'', Magneto isn't trying to KillAllHumans; he wants to turn the leaders of various nations ''into'' mutants. Now that's still ethically highly questionable, but... [[spoiler:oh, never mind, the process is fatal, and he won't believe this. And just to make sure Magneto has a firm grip on the villain ball, his "process" is powered by an unwilling Rogue]].

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** In ''Film/XMen1'', Magneto isn't trying to KillAllHumans; he wants to turn the leaders of various nations ''into'' mutants. Now that's still ethically highly questionable, but... [[spoiler:oh, never mind, the process is fatal, and he won't believe this. And just to make sure Magneto has a firm grip on the villain ball, his "process" is powered by an unwilling Rogue]].Rogue, because he's not willing to sacrifice his own life for the cause when he can sacrifice somebody else's instead]].
31st Jul '17 10:37:59 AM Ferot_Dreadnaught
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*** It bears mentioning that most of the fandom found this utterly ridiculous, pointing out that even if "The League having no restraints could be dangerous" is a valid point, Cadmus was ''still'' the bad guy faction by virtue of their actions -- a "heroic" faction would not have done something like create a Supergirl clone for use as their own private meta-powerful assassin, [[UnintentionallyUnsympathetic no matter what the creators think]].
31st Jul '17 10:34:24 AM JamesAustin
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* In the 2009 ''Film/StarTrek'' movie, [[spoiler:Kirk offers assistance to the about-to-be-crushed-by-a-black-hole Romulan ship, whose crew committed genocide by destroying Vulcan]]. Spock objects to this. Before any actual debate could happen, Nero, the ship's captain, tells Kirk to go screw himself, thus giving Kirk all the moral cover he needs to hasten their inevitable destruction. Kirk even says to Spock that offering them a chance for survival is the logical choice. [[note]]Which it is, because it means they capture the criminals ''and'' get their hands on the ''Narada'''s juicy and powerful future-technology.[[/note]]

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* In the 2009 ''Film/StarTrek'' movie, [[spoiler:Kirk offers assistance to the about-to-be-crushed-by-a-black-hole Romulan ship, whose crew committed genocide by destroying Vulcan]]. Spock objects to this. Before any actual debate could happen, Nero, the ship's captain, tells Kirk to go screw himself, thus giving Kirk all the moral cover he needs to hasten their inevitable destruction. Kirk even says to Spock that offering them a chance for survival is the logical choice. [[note]]Which it is, because it means they capture the criminals ''and'' get their hands on the ''Narada'''s juicy and powerful future-technology.[[/note]]



* ''Captain America: Civil War'' - Peacekeepers must have permission to operate, and must answer for their actions, but they must also refuse illegal orders. Should Avengers submit to the UN or not? Never mind, Bucky was framed for murder.

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* ''Captain America: Civil War'' ''Film/CaptainAmericaCivilWar'' - Peacekeepers must have permission to operate, and must answer for their actions, but they must also refuse illegal orders. Should Avengers submit to the UN or not? Never mind, This is presented as the initial conflict, but it's later switched over by Bucky Barnes being accused of murder (for which he was framed for murder.framed, anyway).
25th Jun '17 9:42:52 PM WildeOscar
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* ''Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine'': The episode "Dax". The titular character, a symbiont who lives inside of a Trill host, is accused of committing a crime. However, the crime in question was allegedly committed when the symbiont was bonded to Curzan, and it has since been passed to Jadzia. Since there is no way to remove the symbiont from Jadzia without killing her, the case becomes a question of whether or not it is right to punish Jadzia Dax for a crime committed by Curzan Dax. Both sides make strong points... Which are all rendered moot by the last minute revelation that Curzon didn't commit the crime in question, as he had an alibi that Jadzia wasn't willing to bring up (he was in bed with the victim's wife). The issue of whether or not Trill symbionts can be held accountable for their past host's actions is ultimately never resolved.

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* ''Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine'': The episode "Dax". The titular character, a symbiont who lives inside of a Trill host, is accused of committing a crime. However, the crime in question was allegedly committed when the symbiont was bonded to Curzan, and it has since been passed to Jadzia. Since there is no way to remove the symbiont from Jadzia without killing her, the case becomes a question of whether or not it is right to punish Jadzia Dax for a crime committed by Curzan Dax. Both sides make strong points... Which are all rendered moot by the last minute revelation that Curzon didn't commit the crime in question, as he had an alibi that Jadzia wasn't willing to bring up (he was in bed with the victim's wife). The issue of whether or not Trill symbionts can be held accountable for their past host's actions is ultimately never resolved. It doesn't help that several episodes have been contradictory about the nature of Trill personalities and whether they have more than one in the same body.
1st Jun '17 3:34:44 AM WanderingBrowser
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Added DiffLines:

*** It bears mentioning that most of the fandom found this utterly ridiculous, pointing out that even if "The League having no restraints could be dangerous" is a valid point, Cadmus was ''still'' the bad guy faction by virtue of their actions -- a "heroic" faction would not have done something like create a Supergirl clone for use as their own private meta-powerful assassin, [[UnintentionallyUnsympathetic no matter what the creators think]].
14th May '17 8:58:22 PM nombretomado
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* {{Trigun}}

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* {{Trigun}} ''Manga/{{Trigun}}'':
14th May '17 2:18:21 AM ClatoLawa
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* ''Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine'': The episode "Dax". The titular character, a symbiont who lives inside of a Trill host, is accused of committing a crime. However, the crime in question was allegedly committed when the symbiont was bonded to Curzan, and it has since been passed to Jadzia. Since there is no way to remove the symbiont from Jadzia without killing her, the case becomes a question of whether or not it is right to punish Jadzia Dax for a crime committed by Curzan Dax. Both sides make strong points... Which are all rendered moot by the last minute revelation that Curzon didn't commit the crime in question. The issue of whether or not Trill symbionts can be held accountable for their past host's actions is ultimately never resolved.

to:

* ''Series/StarTrekDeepSpaceNine'': The episode "Dax". The titular character, a symbiont who lives inside of a Trill host, is accused of committing a crime. However, the crime in question was allegedly committed when the symbiont was bonded to Curzan, and it has since been passed to Jadzia. Since there is no way to remove the symbiont from Jadzia without killing her, the case becomes a question of whether or not it is right to punish Jadzia Dax for a crime committed by Curzan Dax. Both sides make strong points... Which are all rendered moot by the last minute revelation that Curzon didn't commit the crime in question.question, as he had an alibi that Jadzia wasn't willing to bring up (he was in bed with the victim's wife). The issue of whether or not Trill symbionts can be held accountable for their past host's actions is ultimately never resolved.
10th May '17 9:29:00 AM tromag
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Added DiffLines:

** The Seska arc introduces a wildly complicated question when Seska reveals that she forcibly stole Chakotay's DNA and impregnanted herself with it, and later begs for his help when she and his son are in danger. How he's supposed to respond to that is agonizingly difficult. To the show's credit, they do spend a good deal of time dealing with these questions, but they're ultimately rendered moot when it turns out that the child isn't actually Chakotay's after all. Seska dies, the baby's biological father claims him, and [[StatusQuoIsGod everything goes back to normal]].
10th May '17 4:13:27 AM akylae
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Added DiffLines:

* ''Captain America: Civil War'' - Peacekeepers must have permission to operate, and must answer for their actions, but they must also refuse illegal orders. Should Avengers submit to the UN or not? Never mind, Bucky was framed for murder.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.DebateAndSwitch