History Main / DebateAndSwitch

11th Jan '16 8:16:36 PM jormis29
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** There's a broader implication never really examined at all but nevertheless there in the special guns Vash and Knives have: [[spoiler:Knives' gun is basically an ersatz neutron bomb: it wipes out all living things, leaving inanimate structures intact. Vash's gun is the much-coveted inversion of this, a device that wipes out all inanimate structures such as buildings and weapons, but leaves all living creatures alive. However, as shown in a couple of episodes, Vash's gun is not necessarily any more humane than Knives' is, as it also leaves the survivors devoid of shelter and starving.]]
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** There's a broader implication never really examined at all but nevertheless there in the special guns Vash and Knives have: [[spoiler:Knives' gun is basically an ersatz neutron bomb: NeutronBomb: it wipes out all living things, leaving inanimate structures intact. Vash's gun is the much-coveted inversion of this, a device that wipes out all inanimate structures such as buildings and weapons, but leaves all living creatures alive. However, as shown in a couple of episodes, Vash's gun is not necessarily any more humane than Knives' is, as it also leaves the survivors devoid of shelter and starving.]]
21st Dec '15 11:22:19 AM bassforte123
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* ''Manga/{{Naruto}}'' made a major plot point being the villain's plan to lock everyone in the world into their own personal dream world that would give them their every desire. Whether or not this would ultimately be a good thing for a world that raises child soldiers is glossed over in favor of discussing how villainous the means of the people trying to set it off are using. Later on it's also added that the plan also slowly turns people into empty zombies, making the initial debate further removed by having the dream world be fatal. Likewise, once people are released their reactions are glossed over and no one expresses any interest at all over their dream worlds.
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* ''Manga/{{Naruto}}'' made a major plot point being the villain's plan to lock everyone in the world into their own personal dream world that would give them their every desire. Whether or not this would ultimately be a good thing for a world that raises child soldiers is glossed over in favor of discussing how villainous the means of the people trying to set it off are using. Later on it's also added that the plan also slowly turns people into empty zombies, making the initial debate further removed by having the dream world be fatal. Likewise, once people are released their reactions are glossed over and no one expresses any interest at all over their dream worlds.worlds despite how easily traumatic it would be for many of them to see lost loved ones again thinking they were real.
21st Dec '15 11:21:25 AM bassforte123
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* ''Manga/{{Naruto}}'' made a major plot point being the villain's plan to lock everyone in the world into their own personal dream world that would give them their every desire. Whether or not this would ultimately be a good thing for a world that raises child soldiers is glossed over in favor of discussing how villainous the means of the people trying to set it off are using. Later on it's also added that the plan also slowly turns people into empty zombies, making the initial debate further removed by having the dream world be fatal.
to:
* ''Manga/{{Naruto}}'' made a major plot point being the villain's plan to lock everyone in the world into their own personal dream world that would give them their every desire. Whether or not this would ultimately be a good thing for a world that raises child soldiers is glossed over in favor of discussing how villainous the means of the people trying to set it off are using. Later on it's also added that the plan also slowly turns people into empty zombies, making the initial debate further removed by having the dream world be fatal. Likewise, once people are released their reactions are glossed over and no one expresses any interest at all over their dream worlds.
4th Dec '15 6:46:13 PM azul120
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Expect this in works invoking ethnicity and/or gender tropes in ways that might otherwise be blatantly liable to charges of UnfortunateImplications, e.g. relating to MarsAndVenusGenderContrast. Usually, a DebateAndSwitch is pulled in one of the following ways:
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Expect this in works invoking ethnicity and/or gender tropes in ways that might otherwise be blatantly liable to charges of UnfortunateImplications, e.g. relating to MarsAndVenusGenderContrast. Usually, a DebateAndSwitch Debate and Switch is pulled in one of the following ways:

** Another episode discusses whether it is acceptable to apply capital punishment [[DoubleStandard to a woman]], who by this point has already been proven to be a serial killer. [[spoiler:The woman hangs herself.]] (It should be noted that this pissed off the characters as well.) Even before this, the episode has already pulled ''another'' DebateAndSwitch by implying that the woman has been trying to support her son. [[spoiler:The boy isn't even hers; she had kidnapped him.]]
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** Another episode discusses whether it is acceptable to apply capital punishment [[DoubleStandard to a woman]], who by this point has already been proven to be a serial killer. [[spoiler:The woman hangs herself.]] (It should be noted that this pissed off the characters as well.) Even before this, the episode has already pulled ''another'' DebateAndSwitch Debate and Switch by implying that the woman has been trying to support her son. [[spoiler:The boy isn't even hers; she had kidnapped him.]]
28th Nov '15 4:09:52 PM nombretomado
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* Used in an ''Comicbook/{{X-Men}}'' tie in to ''SecretInvasion''; the Skrulls are besieging San Francisco and tremendous loss of life is expected. Beast reveals he has a [[ThePlague virus]] that, if released, would destroy all the invaders in one shot, but that he has no way of controlling once released and may ultimately lead to [[FinalSolution the extinction of the entire Skrull race]], even those not involved with the invasion. [[spoiler:The X-Men ultimately decide to use the virus... and the infected Skrulls kill themselves, so the infection ends with only them]].
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* Used in an ''Comicbook/{{X-Men}}'' ''ComicBook/XMen'' tie in to ''SecretInvasion''; ''ComicBook/SecretInvasion''; the Skrulls are besieging San Francisco and tremendous loss of life is expected. Beast reveals he has a [[ThePlague virus]] that, if released, would destroy all the invaders in one shot, but that he has no way of controlling once released and may ultimately lead to [[FinalSolution the extinction of the entire Skrull race]], even those not involved with the invasion. [[spoiler:The X-Men ultimately decide to use the virus... and the infected Skrulls kill themselves, so the infection ends with only them]].
16th Nov '15 6:33:01 AM eliaskelham
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* ''Videogame/{{Persona 4}}'': The CentralTheme is about [[ArcWords "reaching out for the truth"]], and contantly says that ignoring an AwfulTruth, no matter how difficult or painful, is never the right thing. And yet, virtually everything that might classify as "a complaint against society" conveniently [[TheComplainerIsAlwaysWrong remains unquestioned and unchallenged.]] Japanese society tends to favor the group over the individual, but a lot of complaints lobbied at said society are perfectly valid, but the narrative avoids addressing them. For example, Yukiko dislikes being forced to inherit her family's inn: turns out, [[spoiler:what she ''really'' was worried about was having to do it all alone. The issue of not being able to choose her own job is thus not really addressed at all.]] Rise dislikes being seen as a media lust object and all the hassle that comes with pop stardom: turns out, [[spoiler:she secretly enjoys being in the spotlight and goes back to the industry when it becomes clear she might be replaced. Her objectification is written off as something she can just deal with by accepting the constructed lust object as "herself".]] Yumi has a complaint about her father selfishly abandoning his wife and child. This is never addressed, because [[spoiler:her father ends up dying in the hospital. Yumi decides to live up to her name and "bear fruit" by dropping out of the drama club; the narrative avoids assessing her father's behavior at all by casting Yumi's misgivings as selfish.]]
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* ''Videogame/{{Persona 4}}'': The CentralTheme is about [[ArcWords "reaching out for the truth"]], and contantly says that ignoring an AwfulTruth, no matter how difficult or painful, is never the right thing. And yet, virtually everything that might classify as "a complaint against society" conveniently [[TheComplainerIsAlwaysWrong remains unquestioned and unchallenged.]] Japanese society tends to favor the group over the individual, individual, but the narrative avoids addressing a lot of complaints lobbied at said society are perfectly valid, but the narrative avoids addressing them.society. For example, Yukiko dislikes being forced to inherit her family's inn: turns out, [[spoiler:what she ''really'' was worried about was having to do it all alone. The issue of not being able to choose her own job is thus not really addressed at all.]] Rise dislikes being seen as a media lust object and all the hassle that comes with pop stardom: turns out, [[spoiler:she secretly enjoys being in the spotlight and goes back to the industry when it becomes clear she might be replaced. Her objectification is written off as something she can just deal with by accepting the constructed lust object as "herself".]] Yumi has a complaint about her father selfishly abandoning his wife and child. This is never addressed, because [[spoiler:her father ends up dying in the hospital. Yumi decides to live up to her name and "bear fruit" by dropping out of the drama club; the narrative avoids assessing her father's behavior at all by casting Yumi's misgivings as selfish.]]
13th Nov '15 11:14:05 PM Fireblood
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** There's a recurring theme of WhatMeasureIsANonHuman, about whether the Cylons are really "alive" and had souls. But according to ''Series/{{Caprica}}'', the Cylons originated when a human's memories and personality are coded into a digital avatar. So basically, the skinjob Cylons have bodies molecularly indistinguishable from humans, and their minds are essentially human minds, and assuming ''Series/{{Caprica}}'' doesn't end [[DeusExMachina with a massive wave of amnesia]], the BSG characters should know this from history class. So they are as human as anyone else. Why the hell are even they considered [[YouKeepUsingThatWord robots]] by any criteria except [[ArtificialHuman Karel Capek's?]]
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** There's a recurring theme of WhatMeasureIsANonHuman, about whether the Cylons are really "alive" and had souls. But according to ''Series/{{Caprica}}'', the Cylons originated when a human's memories and personality are coded into a digital avatar. So basically, the skinjob Cylons have bodies molecularly indistinguishable from humans, and their minds are essentially human minds, and assuming since ''Series/{{Caprica}}'' doesn't end [[DeusExMachina with a massive wave of amnesia]], the BSG characters should know this from history class. So they are as human as anyone else. Why the hell are even they considered [[YouKeepUsingThatWord robots]] by any criteria except [[ArtificialHuman Karel Capek's?]] Capek's?]] ** That one seems to be more a case of deliberately dehumanizing them, i.e. refusing to acknowledge Cylons are or could be people (even ''bad'' people). It's hardly surprising given the wars both sides fought, and the Cylons having an artificial origin just made it easier.

* ''Series/TheDistrict'' had a white plainclothes officer shoot and kill a black armed undercover cop after he chased off some punks trying to rob him. The officer claims the undercover pointed his gun at him but the strong suggestion that race played a factor in his judgement call (and 2 previous unrelated incidents where a white cop mistakenly shot a black cop under similar circumstances) leaves many in doubt about his story. [[spoiler: Until the police locate one of the youths the undercover chased off, who confirms that he pointed his gun before getting shot and everyone agrees they need to train officers to identify themselves sooner during tense situations.]]
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* ''Series/TheDistrict'' had a white plainclothes officer shoot and kill a black armed undercover cop after he chased off some punks trying to rob him. The officer claims the undercover pointed his gun at him but the strong suggestion that race played a factor in his judgement call (and 2 previous unrelated incidents where a white cop mistakenly shot a black cop under similar circumstances) leaves many in doubt about his story. [[spoiler: Until the police locate one of the youths the undercover chased off, who confirms that he pointed his gun before getting shot shot, and everyone agrees they need to train officers to identify themselves sooner during tense situations.]]

** The CIA challenges the publishing of a book that contains confidential trade craft secrets that could potentially endanger the CIA's mission but the publisher argues the First Amendment trumps the need for secrecy. The CIA also gets one of the justices disqualified from ruling on the case [[spoiler: because she would have ruled in their favor. The Justices theorize the book is really a full of BlatantLies meant to fool the CIA's enemies and the court challenge was designed to drum up publicity for it.]] However, they can't know for certain if this isn't part of some bigger [[ThePlan plan]] by the CIA who ''wants'' them to think they're ruling against the CIA's interest so they TakeAThirdOption and [[spoiler: drop the case altogether, ceding to the lower court ruling.]]
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** The CIA challenges the publishing of a book that contains confidential trade craft secrets that could potentially endanger the CIA's mission mission, but the publisher argues the First Amendment trumps the need for secrecy. The CIA also gets one of the justices disqualified from ruling on the case [[spoiler: because she would have ruled in their favor. The Justices justices theorize the book is really a full of BlatantLies meant to fool the CIA's enemies enemies, and the court challenge was designed to drum up publicity for it.]] However, they can't know for certain if this isn't part of some bigger [[ThePlan plan]] by the CIA who ''wants'' them to think they're ruling against the CIA's interest so they TakeAThirdOption and [[spoiler: drop the case altogether, ceding to the lower court ruling.]]
13th Nov '15 10:38:10 PM Fireblood
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* ''TheContender'': So, will Laine win the Vice Presidency despite the furore of controversy surrounding her? Will she prove to the world that the bending of the truth and exposure of someone's shady moral history should never be used for political gain and need not necessarily ruin your chances of a high-powered career? [[spoiler:Never mind, the girl in the photos wasn't actually her after all. Oh, and her main rival's a backstabbing liar.]] Crisis averted.
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* ''TheContender'': ''The Contender'': So, will Laine win the Vice Presidency despite the furore of controversy surrounding her? Will she prove to the world that the bending of the truth and exposure of someone's shady moral history should never be used for political gain and need not necessarily ruin your chances of a high-powered career? [[spoiler:Never mind, the girl in the photos wasn't actually her after all. Oh, and her main rival's a backstabbing liar.]] Crisis averted.
3rd Nov '15 1:07:23 PM FF32
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** Firmly averted in the SequelSeries ''Blood of the Southlands'', which focuses almost entirely on the racial conflict, with the closest thing to a real BigBad being killed early in the second book, leaving the remainder of the series to deal with the race war her actions set in motion, while the actual war is GreyAndGrey morality.
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** Firmly averted in the SequelSeries ''Blood of the Southlands'', which focuses almost entirely on the racial conflict, with the closest thing to a real BigBad being killed early in the second book, leaving the remainder of the series to deal with the race war her actions set in motion, while the actual war is GreyAndGrey morality.GreyAndGrayMorality.
1st Nov '15 1:43:03 AM Ramidel
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The different media treat it slightly differently, which does merit sub-bullets.
* ''Manga/DeathNote'' poses the question: does [[UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans utopia justify the means]] if you plan on ending all crime by killing all criminals? Said question is rendered moot by the fact that the perpetrator, MagnificentBastard Light Yagami, goes from a WellIntentionedExtremist [[JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope into a]] VillainProtagonist with a [[AGodAmI god complex]] who kills all who oppose him. This is also present in [[ShutUpHannibal the way]] someone responds to Light trying to justify his actions. A lot of the morality debate is cut from the anime, and [[spoiler:the final debate between Light and Near]] is cut down to its bare minimum, including Light expressing his belief that he's not only getting rid of the criminals, but creating a society where people are free to do good. Near similarly believes that Kira is forcing his own views onto others under threat of death, "neither peaceful nor just," and asks everyone else what they think about it, to which they respond with tacit approval. While there is considerably more examination of the ramifications of Kira's new world order in the manga, the authors ultimately leave it up to the reader to decide, but note that Light was corrupted by having the power to kill at will.
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* ''Manga/DeathNote'' poses the question: does [[UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans utopia justify the means]] if you plan on ending all crime by killing all criminals? Said question is rendered moot by the fact that the perpetrator, MagnificentBastard Light Yagami, goes from a WellIntentionedExtremist [[JumpingOffTheSlipperySlope into a]] VillainProtagonist with a [[AGodAmI god complex]] who kills all who oppose him. This is also present in [[ShutUpHannibal the way]] someone responds to Light trying to justify his actions. ** A lot of the morality debate is cut from the anime, and [[spoiler:the final debate between Light and Near]] is cut down to its bare minimum, including Light expressing his belief that he's not only getting rid of the criminals, but creating a society where people are free to do good. Near similarly believes that Kira is forcing his own views onto others under threat of death, "neither peaceful nor just," and asks everyone else what they think about it, to which they respond with tacit approval. While there ** There is considerably more examination of the ramifications of Kira's new world order in the manga, manga. However, while the authors ultimately leave it up to the reader to decide, but they note that Light was corrupted by having the power to kill at will.will. ** In ''[[AllThereInTheManual Death Note: How To Read]]'', the authors explain that this trope is a NecessaryWeasel because of the [[ShonenDemographic target demographic]]. Since they were writing for ''Magazine/ShonenJump'', the focus was on the plot-and-counterplot between Light and L, and not the question of whether Light's actions were right or not. They also state that if they were writing for a {{seinen}} magazine, the moral and social ramifications would instead have taken center stage and been thoroughly explored.
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