History Main / DebateAndSwitch

4th May '16 9:01:03 PM Eddy1215
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* The second season of ''JusticeLeagueUnlimited'' raised some serious questions about how much power a league of superheroes should be allowed to have, and whether or not the U.S. government was justified in trying to restrain them, but those questions were more or less pushed aside when it turned out that [[spoiler: Lex Luthor was secretly provoking the conflict with sinister intentions... and ''Brainiac'' was manipulating ''Lex'' the entire time. WordOfGod admits that this was due to not wanting to come off as too much of an AuthorTract... considering ''Civil War'', it's hard not to say they may have had a point. At the least, they had Green Arrow try to provide an 'answer'.]]. WordOfGod stated they couldn't think of a way to resolve the plot on it's own, so they had a ConflictKiller happen.

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* The second season of ''JusticeLeagueUnlimited'' ''WesternAnimation/JusticeLeagueUnlimited'' raised some serious questions about how much power a league of superheroes should be allowed to have, and whether or not the U.S. government was justified in trying to restrain them, but those questions were more or less pushed aside when it turned out that [[spoiler: Lex Luthor was secretly provoking the conflict with sinister intentions... and ''Brainiac'' was manipulating ''Lex'' the entire time. WordOfGod admits that this was due to not wanting to come off as too much of an AuthorTract... considering ''Civil War'', it's hard not to say they may have had a point. At the least, they had Green Arrow try to provide an 'answer'.]]. WordOfGod stated they couldn't think of a way to resolve the plot on it's own, so they had a ConflictKiller happen.



* Happens in WesternAnimation/Ben10AlienForce with the first appearance of Alien X. The main characteristic of the alien being that it has godlike power but can't act in even the slightest manner (like walking) if it's internal personalities disagree to do so (which they near always do). When Ben is added into the debate it means he'd logically become all powerful because every one of their deadlocks would be broken with what Ben decided to do but then they suddenly start agreeing... to do nothing in opposition to anything Ben says. When Ben calls them out on this, saying that the compassionate personality should want to save lives and the aggressive personality should want to punish evil, compassion starts crying and they completely avoid responding to Ben's complaint.

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* Happens in WesternAnimation/Ben10AlienForce ''WesternAnimation/Ben10AlienForce'' with the first appearance of Alien X. The main characteristic of the alien being that it has godlike power but can't act in even the slightest manner (like walking) if it's internal personalities disagree to do so (which they near always do). When Ben is added into the debate it means he'd logically become all powerful because every one of their deadlocks would be broken with what Ben decided to do but then they suddenly start agreeing... to do nothing in opposition to anything Ben says. When Ben calls them out on this, saying that the compassionate personality should want to save lives and the aggressive personality should want to punish evil, compassion starts crying and they completely avoid responding to Ben's complaint.
27th Mar '16 9:35:06 AM Ramidel
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** There is considerably more examination of the ramifications of Kira's new world order in the manga. However, while the authors ultimately leave it up to the reader to decide, they note that Light was corrupted by having the power to kill at will.

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** There is considerably more examination of the ramifications of Kira's new world order in the manga. However, while the authors ultimately leave it up to the reader to decide, decide whether ''Kira'' is morally justified or not, they note that Light ''Light'' was corrupted by having the power to kill at will.will and was no longer actually working toward his professed ideals.
1st Mar '16 7:50:01 AM Eievie
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This trope is used for a number of reasons. It allows the show to resolve the tension without (1) giving an unrealistically clear-cut or {{Anvilicious}} solution to an ambiguous problem or (2) alienating the half of the audience who would disapprove of the resolution if the characters did make the hard choice. It avoids having to deliver a FamilyUnfriendlyAesop (who wants to be on record saying that theft might be okay if you're in dire straits?) And it lets creators flex their godlike muscles: it's their story, and they're not bound to send it toward the DownerEnding that would almost certainly result for the RealLife Alice and Bob.

to:

This trope is used for a number of reasons. It allows the show to resolve the tension without (1) giving without
#giving
an unrealistically clear-cut or {{Anvilicious}} solution to an ambiguous problem or (2) alienating problem, or
#alienating
the half of the audience who would disapprove of the resolution if the characters did make the hard choice. choice.
It avoids having to deliver a FamilyUnfriendlyAesop (who wants to be on record saying that theft might be okay if you're in dire straits?) And it lets creators flex their godlike muscles: it's their story, and they're not bound to send it toward the DownerEnding that would almost certainly result for the RealLife Alice and Bob.
26th Feb '16 3:55:41 AM NNinja
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* Used in an ''ComicBook/XMen'' tie in to ''ComicBook/SecretInvasion''; the Skrulls are besieging San Francisco and tremendous loss of life is expected. Beast reveals he has a [[ThePlague virus]] that, if released, would destroy all the invaders in one shot, but that he has no way of controlling once released and may ultimately lead to [[FinalSolution the extinction of the entire Skrull race]], even those not involved with the invasion. [[spoiler:The X-Men ultimately decide to use the virus... and the infected Skrulls kill themselves, so the infection ends with only them]].
11th Jan '16 8:16:36 PM jormis29
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** There's a broader implication never really examined at all but nevertheless there in the special guns Vash and Knives have: [[spoiler:Knives' gun is basically an ersatz neutron bomb: it wipes out all living things, leaving inanimate structures intact. Vash's gun is the much-coveted inversion of this, a device that wipes out all inanimate structures such as buildings and weapons, but leaves all living creatures alive. However, as shown in a couple of episodes, Vash's gun is not necessarily any more humane than Knives' is, as it also leaves the survivors devoid of shelter and starving.]]

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** There's a broader implication never really examined at all but nevertheless there in the special guns Vash and Knives have: [[spoiler:Knives' gun is basically an ersatz neutron bomb: NeutronBomb: it wipes out all living things, leaving inanimate structures intact. Vash's gun is the much-coveted inversion of this, a device that wipes out all inanimate structures such as buildings and weapons, but leaves all living creatures alive. However, as shown in a couple of episodes, Vash's gun is not necessarily any more humane than Knives' is, as it also leaves the survivors devoid of shelter and starving.]]
21st Dec '15 11:22:19 AM bassforte123
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* ''Manga/{{Naruto}}'' made a major plot point being the villain's plan to lock everyone in the world into their own personal dream world that would give them their every desire. Whether or not this would ultimately be a good thing for a world that raises child soldiers is glossed over in favor of discussing how villainous the means of the people trying to set it off are using. Later on it's also added that the plan also slowly turns people into empty zombies, making the initial debate further removed by having the dream world be fatal. Likewise, once people are released their reactions are glossed over and no one expresses any interest at all over their dream worlds.

to:

* ''Manga/{{Naruto}}'' made a major plot point being the villain's plan to lock everyone in the world into their own personal dream world that would give them their every desire. Whether or not this would ultimately be a good thing for a world that raises child soldiers is glossed over in favor of discussing how villainous the means of the people trying to set it off are using. Later on it's also added that the plan also slowly turns people into empty zombies, making the initial debate further removed by having the dream world be fatal. Likewise, once people are released their reactions are glossed over and no one expresses any interest at all over their dream worlds.worlds despite how easily traumatic it would be for many of them to see lost loved ones again thinking they were real.
21st Dec '15 11:21:25 AM bassforte123
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* ''Manga/{{Naruto}}'' made a major plot point being the villain's plan to lock everyone in the world into their own personal dream world that would give them their every desire. Whether or not this would ultimately be a good thing for a world that raises child soldiers is glossed over in favor of discussing how villainous the means of the people trying to set it off are using. Later on it's also added that the plan also slowly turns people into empty zombies, making the initial debate further removed by having the dream world be fatal.

to:

* ''Manga/{{Naruto}}'' made a major plot point being the villain's plan to lock everyone in the world into their own personal dream world that would give them their every desire. Whether or not this would ultimately be a good thing for a world that raises child soldiers is glossed over in favor of discussing how villainous the means of the people trying to set it off are using. Later on it's also added that the plan also slowly turns people into empty zombies, making the initial debate further removed by having the dream world be fatal. Likewise, once people are released their reactions are glossed over and no one expresses any interest at all over their dream worlds.
4th Dec '15 6:46:13 PM azul120
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Expect this in works invoking ethnicity and/or gender tropes in ways that might otherwise be blatantly liable to charges of UnfortunateImplications, e.g. relating to MarsAndVenusGenderContrast. Usually, a DebateAndSwitch is pulled in one of the following ways:

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Expect this in works invoking ethnicity and/or gender tropes in ways that might otherwise be blatantly liable to charges of UnfortunateImplications, e.g. relating to MarsAndVenusGenderContrast. Usually, a DebateAndSwitch Debate and Switch is pulled in one of the following ways:



** Another episode discusses whether it is acceptable to apply capital punishment [[DoubleStandard to a woman]], who by this point has already been proven to be a serial killer. [[spoiler:The woman hangs herself.]] (It should be noted that this pissed off the characters as well.) Even before this, the episode has already pulled ''another'' DebateAndSwitch by implying that the woman has been trying to support her son. [[spoiler:The boy isn't even hers; she had kidnapped him.]]

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** Another episode discusses whether it is acceptable to apply capital punishment [[DoubleStandard to a woman]], who by this point has already been proven to be a serial killer. [[spoiler:The woman hangs herself.]] (It should be noted that this pissed off the characters as well.) Even before this, the episode has already pulled ''another'' DebateAndSwitch Debate and Switch by implying that the woman has been trying to support her son. [[spoiler:The boy isn't even hers; she had kidnapped him.]]
28th Nov '15 4:09:52 PM nombretomado
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* Used in an ''Comicbook/{{X-Men}}'' tie in to ''SecretInvasion''; the Skrulls are besieging San Francisco and tremendous loss of life is expected. Beast reveals he has a [[ThePlague virus]] that, if released, would destroy all the invaders in one shot, but that he has no way of controlling once released and may ultimately lead to [[FinalSolution the extinction of the entire Skrull race]], even those not involved with the invasion. [[spoiler:The X-Men ultimately decide to use the virus... and the infected Skrulls kill themselves, so the infection ends with only them]].

to:

* Used in an ''Comicbook/{{X-Men}}'' ''ComicBook/XMen'' tie in to ''SecretInvasion''; ''ComicBook/SecretInvasion''; the Skrulls are besieging San Francisco and tremendous loss of life is expected. Beast reveals he has a [[ThePlague virus]] that, if released, would destroy all the invaders in one shot, but that he has no way of controlling once released and may ultimately lead to [[FinalSolution the extinction of the entire Skrull race]], even those not involved with the invasion. [[spoiler:The X-Men ultimately decide to use the virus... and the infected Skrulls kill themselves, so the infection ends with only them]].
16th Nov '15 6:33:01 AM eliaskelham
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* ''Videogame/{{Persona 4}}'': The CentralTheme is about [[ArcWords "reaching out for the truth"]], and contantly says that ignoring an AwfulTruth, no matter how difficult or painful, is never the right thing. And yet, virtually everything that might classify as "a complaint against society" conveniently [[TheComplainerIsAlwaysWrong remains unquestioned and unchallenged.]] Japanese society tends to favor the group over the individual, but a lot of complaints lobbied at said society are perfectly valid, but the narrative avoids addressing them. For example, Yukiko dislikes being forced to inherit her family's inn: turns out, [[spoiler:what she ''really'' was worried about was having to do it all alone. The issue of not being able to choose her own job is thus not really addressed at all.]] Rise dislikes being seen as a media lust object and all the hassle that comes with pop stardom: turns out, [[spoiler:she secretly enjoys being in the spotlight and goes back to the industry when it becomes clear she might be replaced. Her objectification is written off as something she can just deal with by accepting the constructed lust object as "herself".]] Yumi has a complaint about her father selfishly abandoning his wife and child. This is never addressed, because [[spoiler:her father ends up dying in the hospital. Yumi decides to live up to her name and "bear fruit" by dropping out of the drama club; the narrative avoids assessing her father's behavior at all by casting Yumi's misgivings as selfish.]]

to:

* ''Videogame/{{Persona 4}}'': The CentralTheme is about [[ArcWords "reaching out for the truth"]], and contantly says that ignoring an AwfulTruth, no matter how difficult or painful, is never the right thing. And yet, virtually everything that might classify as "a complaint against society" conveniently [[TheComplainerIsAlwaysWrong remains unquestioned and unchallenged.]] Japanese society tends to favor the group over the individual, individual, but the narrative avoids addressing a lot of complaints lobbied at said society are perfectly valid, but the narrative avoids addressing them.society. For example, Yukiko dislikes being forced to inherit her family's inn: turns out, [[spoiler:what she ''really'' was worried about was having to do it all alone. The issue of not being able to choose her own job is thus not really addressed at all.]] Rise dislikes being seen as a media lust object and all the hassle that comes with pop stardom: turns out, [[spoiler:she secretly enjoys being in the spotlight and goes back to the industry when it becomes clear she might be replaced. Her objectification is written off as something she can just deal with by accepting the constructed lust object as "herself".]] Yumi has a complaint about her father selfishly abandoning his wife and child. This is never addressed, because [[spoiler:her father ends up dying in the hospital. Yumi decides to live up to her name and "bear fruit" by dropping out of the drama club; the narrative avoids assessing her father's behavior at all by casting Yumi's misgivings as selfish.]]
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.DebateAndSwitch