History Main / CantArgueWithElves

8th Feb '16 11:18:12 PM Teakay
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** While not elves, the qunari are a straighter example of the trope. The general argument presented is that qunari are perfect because they are ordered and the only people we see oppose what they want are either massive strawmen: Corrupt people who see them only as heretics. Even [[PlayerCharacter Hawke]] only gets to call them butchers. It is ignored how they take children away from their parents, force others to accept only one role in life, and are blind to the fact that they might be wrong.
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** While not elves, the qunari are a straighter example of the trope. trope [[note]]Then there's Tallis, a [[TheScrappy Scrappy]] who's a qunari ''and'' an elf[[/note]]. The general argument presented is that qunari are perfect because they are ordered and the only people we see oppose what they want are either massive strawmen: Corrupt people strawmen or religious fanatics who see them only as heretics. Even [[PlayerCharacter Hawke]] only gets to call them butchers. It is ignored how they take children away from their parents, force others to accept only one role in life, and are blind to the fact that they might be wrong.
31st Jan '16 6:44:33 PM GrammarNavi
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* The ''Literature/MemorySorrowAndThorn'' books by TadWilliams. The Sithi can't help coming up with subtle put downs, condescending behavior and reproaches about old injustices done to them by ancestors who have been dead for centuries. Their high-bred human allies mostly ignore them.
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* The ''Literature/MemorySorrowAndThorn'' books by TadWilliams.Creator/TadWilliams. The Sithi can't help coming up with subtle put downs, condescending behavior and reproaches about old injustices done to them by ancestors who have been dead for centuries. Their high-bred human allies mostly ignore them.
23rd Jan '16 1:19:45 PM ChaoticNovelist
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In fact, the only quality elves seem to be lacking is ''humility''. Even when an author tries to specify that ''these'' elves are perfect, wonderful, etc., ''and'' humble, the elves still can't resist lecturing humans on their errant ways. Sometimes the elf will try a Socratic approach -- asking, for example, why humans will kill each other, because of course elves [[ApeShallNeverKillApe never fight amongst themselves]] -- but they don't ''need'' to. Pretty much any excuse is good to put the silly little humans in their place. Strangely, the humans are not allowed to take offense, demand politeness, defend themselves or -- heaven forbid -- mock the elves right back. If anyone tries, the elf will sniff disdainfully and utterly destroy the human's argument, thus proving the elves right yet again. This trope is not limited to elves, though. Whenever you have a group that thinks itself as just completely superior to anyone else and ignores all arguments against it, you have this trope.
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In fact, the only quality elves seem to be lacking is ''humility''. Even when an author tries to specify that ''these'' elves are perfect, wonderful, etc., ''and'' humble, the elves still can't resist lecturing humans on their errant ways. Sometimes the elf will try a Socratic approach -- asking, for example, why humans will kill each other, because of course elves [[ApeShallNeverKillApe never fight amongst themselves]] -- but they don't ''need'' to. Pretty much any Any excuse is good to put the silly little humans in their place. Strangely, the humans are not allowed to take offense, demand politeness, defend themselves or -- heaven forbid -- mock the elves right back. If anyone tries, the elf will sniff disdainfully and utterly destroy the human's argument, thus proving the elves right yet again. This trope is not limited to elves, though.elves. Whenever you have a group that thinks itself as just completely superior to anyone else and ignores all arguments against it, you have this trope.

Not a bad thing if the creator intends for the characters in question to appear arrogant and annoying. But there are plenty of cases in which even the audience is supposed to share this view, which has you pretty much ending up with an entire race of [[MarySue Mary Sues]].
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Not a bad thing if the creator intends for the characters in question to appear arrogant and annoying. But there are plenty of cases in which even the audience is supposed to share this view, which has you pretty much ending up with an entire race of [[MarySue Mary Sues]].

* Seen in the ''Film/TheLordOfTheRings'' movies, particularly in Elrond, who almost despises humans as foolish and weak.[[note]]more so than in the books (and in the original canon at least, Elrond actually has partial human ancestry from both his parents)[[/note]] Elrond's problem with humans is more personal than an expression of elven hauteur. He's still angry at humans -- in the person of Isildur -- for failing to throw the One Ring into Mount Doom when they (he) had the chance. Since that failure led directly to the problems that were being discussed at that very moment, his harsh words may have been more a moment of pique than anything else.[[note]]again, in the books (but not referenced in the films) Elrond has had many opportunities during his six-millennia lifetime to see humans fail -- most recently the Kingdom of Arnor, the sorry remnants of which his daughter's suitor has inherited, and most spectacularily Nśmenor -- Isildur's failure, while crucial, was only one of many instances[[/note]] His daughter wanting to leave her entire family to stay with a human man probably plays a big part in this. Most other elves seem far more relaxed about it, though.
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* Seen in the ''Film/TheLordOfTheRings'' movies, particularly in Elrond, who almost despises humans as foolish and weak.[[note]]more so than in the books (and in the original canon at least, Elrond actually has partial human ancestry from both his parents)[[/note]] Elrond's problem with humans is more personal than an expression of elven hauteur. He's still angry at humans -- in the person of Isildur -- for failing to throw the One Ring into Mount Doom when they (he) had the chance. Since that failure led directly to the problems that were being discussed at that very moment, his harsh words may have been more a moment of pique than anything else.[[note]]again, in the books (but not referenced in the films) Elrond has had many opportunities during his six-millennia lifetime to see humans fail -- most recently the Kingdom of Arnor, the sorry remnants of which his daughter's suitor has inherited, and most spectacularily Nśmenor -- Isildur's failure, while crucial, was only one of many instances[[/note]] His daughter wanting to leave her entire family to stay with a human man probably plays a big part in this. Most other elves seem far more relaxed about it, though.it.

** Wizards themselves: they restrict contact with normal people, and consider the problems of the country they live in to be nothing to do with them. They are shown as superior (and arrogant because of it) all the time. *** This is ultimately averted, however. A recurring theme of the series is that wizard culture is heavily flawed, featuring casual FantasticRacism and a comically-incompetent government. The one time a character does get to argue with wizards, it's the Prime Minister of the UK, who is bewildered at how badly they've been managing the war with Voldemort, and it's pretty clear that he's got a point.
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** Wizards themselves: they restrict contact with normal people, and consider the problems of the country they live in to be nothing to do with them. They are shown as superior (and arrogant because of it) all the time. \n*** This However, this is ultimately averted, however.averted. A recurring theme of the series is that wizard culture is heavily flawed, featuring casual FantasticRacism and a comically-incompetent government. The one time a character does get to argue with wizards, it's the Prime Minister of the UK, who is bewildered at how badly they've been managing the war with Voldemort, and it's pretty clear that he's got a point.

* About a dozen separate races in ''Franchise/StarTrek'', most notably the Organians. In the original series, these races were always pacifists speaking out against some conflict or other.
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* About a dozen separate races in ''Franchise/StarTrek'', most notably such as the Organians. In the original series, these races were always pacifists speaking out against some conflict or other.

* This is pretty much Joel's relationship with the locals in ''Series/NorthernExposure.'' He's always in the wrong, even when he's right.
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* This is pretty much Joel's relationship with the locals in ''Series/NorthernExposure.'' He's always in the wrong, even when he's right.

* In second-ed D&D setting ''TabletopGames/{{Planescape}}'' pretty much all planars saw themselves as inherently superior to primes (anyone from the Prime Material Plane, [[TropeBreaker including elves]]). [[ForgottenRealms Toril]], [[TabletopGame/{{Dragonlance}} Krynn]], [[DarkSun Athas]] - it didn't matter where on the Prime you were from or which race you were, until you proved otherwise you were Clueless and had no idea how the planes worked or what the answers to life were.
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* In second-ed D&D setting ''TabletopGames/{{Planescape}}'' pretty much all planars saw themselves as inherently superior to primes (anyone from the Prime Material Plane, [[TropeBreaker including elves]]). [[ForgottenRealms Toril]], [[TabletopGame/{{Dragonlance}} Krynn]], [[DarkSun Athas]] - it didn't matter where on the Prime you were from or which race you were, until you proved otherwise you were Clueless and had no idea how the planes worked or what the answers to life were.

** It should also be noted that most elves we see in the series are in the elven equivalent to their twenties, which are noted as being abnormally sociopathic in their dealings with pretty much everyone. ** The main character Mackenzie Blaise has this viewpoint about some of her friends (notably Dee and Amaranth), seeing them as being inherently purer because of their species (dark elf and nymph, in this case), although that probably has something to do with how Mack thinks of herself as being inherently corrupted because of her half-demon heritage (which has some support in the story). Whether or not the reader is supposed to feel that any one race is supposed to be inherently better than others is hard to tell--we certainly see faults with all of them as the story goes on.
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** It should also be noted that most elves we see in the series are in the elven equivalent to their twenties, which are noted as being abnormally sociopathic in their dealings with pretty much everyone. ** The main character Mackenzie Blaise has this viewpoint about some of her friends (notably Dee (Dee and Amaranth), seeing them as being inherently purer because of their species (dark elf and nymph, in this case), although that probably has something to do with how Mack thinks of herself as being inherently corrupted because of her half-demon heritage (which has some support in the story). Whether or not the reader is supposed to feel that any one race is supposed to be inherently better than others is hard to tell--we certainly see faults with all of them as the story goes on.
8th Jan '16 3:00:20 PM Discar
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* The Aurėnfaie in Lynn Flewelling's ''{{Nightrunner}}'' novels have this going on in spades. Longer lifespans (and thus perceived greater experience and wisdom) than humans. Check. Innate magical potential (all the more because human magical potential originates from [[HalfHumanHybrid cross-breeding]] with them). Check. A language that is difficult for most humans to pronounce properly. Check. [[OurGodsAreGreater Monotheistic religion]] while the humans are following their own gaggle of silly gods. Check. Tendency to drag out any kind of decision making for a length of time that makes most humans want to give up and leave. Check.
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* The Aurėnfaie in Lynn Flewelling's ''{{Nightrunner}}'' novels have this going on in spades. Longer lifespans (and thus perceived greater experience and wisdom) than humans. Check. Innate magical potential (all the more because human magical potential originates from [[HalfHumanHybrid cross-breeding]] with them). Check. A language that is difficult for most humans to pronounce properly. Check. [[OurGodsAreGreater [[OurGodsAreDifferent Monotheistic religion]] while the humans are following their own gaggle of silly gods. Check. Tendency to drag out any kind of decision making for a length of time that makes most humans want to give up and leave. Check.
20th Dec '15 5:07:56 PM vn70072
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* The Nox of StargateSG1 are also bad about this. They are devout pacifists in tune with nature and look down upon humans as immature and violent, and seem to forget that their own pacifist lifestyle is largely possible because they can cloak whole cities and perform feats of healing up to and including reviving the recently killed.
28th Nov '15 7:55:48 PM skeymic
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*** Inquisition finally gets a better perspective on the Qun via Iron Bull. Bull very much seems to think that the Qun is better in many ways, they are ordered, well trained, many things considered taboo (transgenderism, sex workers) are embraced, and seem pretty good at determining a profession a person is well suited for. It is emphasized that it works well because they eradicate anything that works outside of their idea of order. Re-education was mentioned. If you live the life the Qun sets out for you, it will be good. If you deviate from it or waver in your dedication, you will be brainwashed, exiled, or killed.
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*** Inquisition finally gets a better perspective on the Qun via Iron Bull. Bull very much seems to think that the Qun is better in many ways, they are ordered, well trained, many things considered taboo (transgenderism, sex workers) are embraced, and seem pretty good at determining a profession a person is well suited for. It However, it is emphasized that it works well because they eradicate anything that works outside of their idea of order. Re-education was mentioned. If you live the life the Qun sets out for you, it will be good. If you deviate from it or waver in your dedication, you will be brainwashed, exiled, or killed.
18th Nov '15 7:50:22 AM Ramidel
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** First you have the Craftworld Eldar, who take their arrogance to the levels of "we're better than everyone else, so we're allowed to [[ItsAllAboutMe kill thousands of the lesser races to preserve the lives of a few of us]]" [[CrapsackWorld (though to be fair, every else in the setting has the same mentality)]]. Next you have the [[EvilCounterpart Dark Eldar]], who take their arrogance level to "we're better than everyone else, so we're allowed to kidnap thousands of the lesser races and take them back to our inter-dimensional WretchedHive city and brutally torture, rape and kill them because we need to eat their emotions and souls, and [[ForTheEvulz besides, it's fun]]". [[TheFairFolk Yep]].
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** First you have the Craftworld Eldar, who take their arrogance to the levels of "we're better than everyone else, so we're allowed to [[ItsAllAboutMe kill thousands of the lesser races to preserve the lives of a few of us]]" [[CrapsackWorld (though to be fair, every else in the setting has the same mentality)]]. Next you have the [[EvilCounterpart Dark Eldar]], who take their arrogance level to "we're better than everyone else, so we're allowed to kidnap thousands of the lesser races and take them back to our inter-dimensional WretchedHive city and brutally torture, rape and kill them because we need to eat their emotions and souls, and [[ForTheEvulz besides, it's fun]]". [[TheFairFolk Yep]]. Unlike their Fantasy counterparts, however, while the Craftworld and Dark Eldar don't ''like'' each other, they recognize each other as Eldar and are fully capable of cooperating for mutual benefit without stabbing each other in the back.
15th Oct '15 3:55:21 AM ManEFaces
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** Delenn is more complicated. Her [[ProperLady ladylike]] demeanor and noblesse oblige can be mistaken for this. However she is not unthinkingly arrogant or self-righteous, and she calls out many of her own people as JerkAsses for being so.
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** Delenn is more complicated. Her [[ProperLady ladylike]] demeanor and noblesse oblige can be mistaken for this. However she is not unthinkingly arrogant or self-righteous, and she calls out many of her own people as JerkAsses self-righteous pricks for being so.
15th Oct '15 3:54:55 AM ManEFaces
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** Delenn is more complicated. Her [[ProperLady ladylike]] demeanor and noblesse oblige can be mistaken for this. However she is not unthinkingly arrogant or self-righteous.
to:
** Delenn is more complicated. Her [[ProperLady ladylike]] demeanor and noblesse oblige can be mistaken for this. However she is not unthinkingly arrogant or self-righteous.self-righteous, and she calls out many of her own people as JerkAsses for being so.
13th Oct '15 7:04:30 AM Daucus
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** Seems to be playing straight with Solas at the end of Inquisition, who seeks to restore the ancient elven empire (that could effortlessly use magic and was technologically superior to anyone else in Thedas during its heyday) and tear down the Veil, regardless of the harm to Thedas.
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