History Main / CanTArgueWithElves

7th Apr '18 12:13:06 PM gb00393
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

* ''Series/GameOfThrones'': Varys tries to repeatedly get one up on the Red Priestesses, first Kinvara and then Melisandre. Both time he gets shut out and embarrassed by their clear displays of clairvoyance and magical prowess.
16th Mar '18 5:57:16 PM nombretomado
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* The Jedi in ''Franchise/StarWars'' are more than a bit like this—and it's then subverted ''horribly'' in [[RevengeOfTheSith Episode III]], when their blind adherence to dogma easily allows the BigBad to drive Anakin Skywalker, TheChosenOne, to join TheDarkSide and all but exterminate the Jedi and effectively {{Unperson}} them.

to:

* The Jedi in ''Franchise/StarWars'' are more than a bit like this—and it's then subverted ''horribly'' in [[RevengeOfTheSith [[Film/RevengeOfTheSith Episode III]], when their blind adherence to dogma easily allows the BigBad to drive Anakin Skywalker, TheChosenOne, to join TheDarkSide and all but exterminate the Jedi and effectively {{Unperson}} them.
15th Feb '18 5:13:39 AM MCanter89
Is there an issue? Send a Message


OurElvesAreBetter. [[SuperiorSpecies Better than you]]. They are taller, thinner, prettier, more graceful, better-read, more intelligent, more environmentally-conscious ("InHarmonyWithNature" is the usual phrasing), more socially progressive, less aggressive or confrontational (while still being fearsome warriors), and better craftspeople, too.

to:

OurElvesAreBetter. [[SuperiorSpecies Better than you]]. They are taller, thinner, prettier, more graceful, better-read, more intelligent, more environmentally-conscious environmentally conscious ("InHarmonyWithNature" is the usual phrasing), more socially progressive, less aggressive or confrontational (while still being fearsome warriors), and better craftspeople, too.



There are no elves in real life, far as we know, but it is very prevalent in humanity with certain individuals and groups adopting this stance. Which individuals and groups? Take your pick, you may have seen such elves in online, political or religious discussion, however [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment we are not looking to catalogue such examples.]]

to:

There are no elves in real life, far as we know, but it is very prevalent in humanity with certain individuals and groups adopting this stance. Which individuals and groups? Take your pick, you may have seen such elves in online, political or religious discussion, however discussion; however, [[RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment we are not looking to catalogue such examples.]]
examples]].



** The "jealousy over inherent moral superiority" thing gets rather ridiculous once the various {{Rogues Galler|y}}ies - which demonstrate quite clearly that "noble" superhumans are quite outnumbered by the less-than-noble ones.

to:

** The "jealousy over inherent moral superiority" thing gets rather ridiculous once the various {{Rogues Galler|y}}ies - which demonstrate quite clearly that "noble" superhumans are quite outnumbered by the less-than-noble ones.



* The Echidna race in the Pre-reboot continuity of [[ComicBook/ArchieComicsSonicTheHedgehog Archie's Sonic the Hedgehog Comic]] are a pretty good fit themselves. They were isolationist even before the Floating Island came to be and are established as being the first animal race to evolve intelligence, making them the most advanced race on the planet. Under Creator/KenPenders in particular, they always acted superior to everyone else and were never really called out on it, especially [[OmniscientCouncilOfVagueness the Brotherhood of Guardians]], who felt that anything that didn't directly concern the Floating Island wasn't their problem, even Robotnik taking over the rest of Mobius. It isn't until Ian Flynn replaced him as head writer that they finally do get called out for this, with Knuckles [[CallingTheOldManOut taking his father Locke to task over it]] when he tries to call his son back to the Island while Knothole Kingdom is in the middle of a crisis and Knuckles wants to stay and help his friends.

to:

* The Echidna race in the Pre-reboot pre-reboot continuity of [[ComicBook/ArchieComicsSonicTheHedgehog Archie's Sonic the Hedgehog Comic]] are a pretty good fit themselves. They were isolationist even before the Floating Island came to be and are established as being the first animal race to evolve intelligence, making them the most advanced race on the planet. Under Creator/KenPenders in particular, they always acted superior to everyone else and were never really called out on it, especially [[OmniscientCouncilOfVagueness the Brotherhood of Guardians]], who felt that anything that didn't directly concern the Floating Island wasn't their problem, even Robotnik taking over the rest of Mobius. It isn't until Ian Flynn replaced him as head writer that they finally do get called out for this, with Knuckles [[CallingTheOldManOut taking his father Locke to task over it]] when he tries to call his son back to the Island while Knothole Kingdom is in the middle of a crisis and Knuckles wants to stay and help his friends.



* In the ''StarWars''[=/=]''MassEffect'' crossover ''FanFic/{{Fractured}}'' the Star Wars far-future faction (Trans-Galactic Republic) ends up acting like this simply because they can, though it's not out of malice and more of "If you want us to solve your [[EldritchAbomination Reaper]] problem then here's what you should do..." Thinking they "know better" actually ends up [[NiceJobBreakingItHero backfiring]] and dis-unifying the races of Mass Effect's galaxy, so [[FromBadToWorse a totalitarian government forms]] and that [[SarcasmMode never goes wrong]]. In the [[FanFic/SovereignGFCOrigins sequel]] both the Trans-Galactic Republic and asari try to use this trope. Fittingly, their respective representatives call each other out on it.

to:

* In the ''StarWars''[=/=]''MassEffect'' ''Franchise/StarWars''[=/=]''Franchise/MassEffect'' crossover ''FanFic/{{Fractured}}'' ''FanFic/{{Fractured}}'', the Star Wars ''Star Wars'' far-future faction (Trans-Galactic Republic) ends up acting like this simply because they can, though it's not out of malice and more of "If you want us to solve your [[EldritchAbomination Reaper]] problem then here's what you should do..." Thinking they "know better" actually ends up [[NiceJobBreakingItHero backfiring]] and dis-unifying the races of Mass Effect's ''Mass Effect'''s galaxy, so [[FromBadToWorse a totalitarian government forms]] and that [[SarcasmMode never goes wrong]]. In the [[FanFic/SovereignGFCOrigins sequel]] both the Trans-Galactic Republic and asari try to use this trope. Fittingly, their respective representatives call each other out on it.



* The Jedi in ''Franchise/StarWars'' are more than a bit like this—and it's then subverted ''horribly'' in [[RevengeOfTheSith Episode III]], when their blind adherence to dogma easily allows the BigBad to drive Anakin Skywalker, TheChosenOne, to join TheDarkSide and all but exterminate the Jedi and [[{{Unperson}} effectively Unperson them]].

to:

* The Jedi in ''Franchise/StarWars'' are more than a bit like this—and it's then subverted ''horribly'' in [[RevengeOfTheSith Episode III]], when their blind adherence to dogma easily allows the BigBad to drive Anakin Skywalker, TheChosenOne, to join TheDarkSide and all but exterminate the Jedi and [[{{Unperson}} effectively Unperson them]].{{Unperson}} them.



** Wizards themselves: they restrict contact with normal people, and consider the problems of the country they live in to be nothing to do with them. They are shown as superior (and arrogant because of it) all the time. However, this is ultimately averted. A recurring theme of the series is that wizard culture is heavily flawed, featuring casual FantasticRacism and a comically-incompetent government. The one time a character does get to argue with wizards, it's the Prime Minister of the UK, who is bewildered at how badly they've been managing the war with Voldemort, and it's pretty clear that he's got a point.

to:

** Wizards themselves: they restrict contact with normal people, and consider the problems of the country they live in to be nothing to do with them. They are shown as superior (and arrogant because of it) all the time. However, this is ultimately averted. A recurring theme of the series is that wizard culture is heavily flawed, featuring casual FantasticRacism and a comically-incompetent comically incompetent government. The one time a character does get to argue with wizards, it's the Prime Minister of the UK, who is bewildered at how badly they've been managing the war with Voldemort, and it's pretty clear that he's got a point.



* A self-righteous example would be the HeroAntagonist Mizzamir in the book ''Literature/VillainsByNecessity.'' The other elves have all left for a distant world, but he remained behind to guide mankind to a glorious future. No one dare argue with him, even as he [[BrainwashingForTheGreaterGood brainwashes dissident citizens into loyal ones.]]

to:

* A self-righteous example would be the HeroAntagonist Mizzamir in the book ''Literature/VillainsByNecessity.'' The other elves have all left for a distant world, but he remained behind to guide mankind to a glorious future. No one dare argue with him, even as he [[BrainwashingForTheGreaterGood brainwashes dissident citizens into loyal ones.]]ones]].



*** Ultimately subverted in that episode, since the flawed 20th-century JerkAss businessman is the only one able to tell that the Romulan captain is just as clueless as they are ''and'' is willing to call him out on it, defusing a potentially hostile standoff that could have resulted in war. He's able to do this precisely because he still has an 'outdated' mindset. [[note]]ExpandedUniverse material states he ended up as a diplomat to the Ferengi, as he is more than able to understand their focus on commerce. [[/note]]

to:

*** Ultimately subverted in that episode, since the flawed 20th-century JerkAss businessman is the only one able to tell that the Romulan captain is just as clueless as they are ''and'' is willing to call him out on it, defusing a potentially hostile standoff that could have resulted in war. He's able to do this precisely because he still has an 'outdated' mindset. [[note]]ExpandedUniverse material states he ended up as a diplomat to the Ferengi, as he is more than able to understand their focus on commerce. commerce.[[/note]]



** The Vorlons, on the other hand, play this trope alarmingly straight. They're better than everyone else (even the Minbari look up to them) and there is literally no arguing with them because a) they're always right and b) it's rather hard to argue with someone who talks in cryptic koans all the time and c) they're vastly more powerful than you. [[spoiler: They've also manipulated most of the other races to see them as angelic beings.]] Sheridan finally [[ScrewYouElves snaps]] in spectacular style. Subverted by Kosh, who was often convinced to help and listen in various ways, including taking an action he knew would lead to his death. Sheridan mistook his attitude for this trope and [[HeroicSacrifice didn't realize what Kosh actually meant until it was too late]].
* In the {{Literature/Dinotopia}} miniseries, Karl and David are completely unable to convince the Dinotopians that people living anywhere else have it better than [[MarySuetopia they do]]. Cars, airplanes, and television simply can't hold a candle to their intellectual, pacifistic self-satisfaction, and any argument the brothers can offer is instantaneously deflected. Did I mention they're vegetarians and In Harmony With Nature? (except for the animals they kill to feed the T-Rexes) The books have some elements of this but are less explicit about it.

to:

** The Vorlons, on the other hand, play this trope alarmingly straight. They're better than everyone else (even the Minbari look up to them) and there is literally no arguing with them because a) they're always right and b) it's rather hard to argue with someone who talks in cryptic koans all the time and c) they're vastly more powerful than you. [[spoiler: They've [[spoiler:They've also manipulated most of the other races to see them as angelic beings.]] Sheridan finally [[ScrewYouElves snaps]] in spectacular style. Subverted by Kosh, who was often convinced to help and listen in various ways, including taking an action he knew would lead to his death. Sheridan mistook his attitude for this trope and [[HeroicSacrifice didn't realize what Kosh actually meant until it was too late]].
* In the {{Literature/Dinotopia}} ''{{Literature/Dinotopia}}'' miniseries, Karl and David are completely unable to convince the Dinotopians that people living anywhere else have it better than [[MarySuetopia they do]]. Cars, airplanes, and television simply can't hold a candle to their intellectual, pacifistic self-satisfaction, and any argument the brothers can offer is instantaneously deflected. Did I mention they're vegetarians and In Harmony With Nature? (except for the animals they kill to feed the T-Rexes) The books have some elements of this but are less explicit about it.



* ''TabletopGame/{{Space 1889}}'' weirdly inverted, this is many Martians’ opinion about how humans think that their ideas of Christianity, Progress and Science make them superior. Extra points for some humans thinking that Martians resemble elves (there is very little elfish in their behaviour, though).

to:

* ''TabletopGame/{{Space 1889}}'' ''TabletopGame/Space1889'' weirdly inverted, this is many Martians’ opinion about how humans think that their ideas of Christianity, Progress and Science make them superior. Extra points for some humans thinking that Martians resemble elves (there is very little elfish in their behaviour, though).



** The Asur (High Elves) behave with a kind of patronising paternalism towards the lesser races - they think that poor, feeble humans and dwarfs are constantly in need of their help, and should be saved from themselves by High Elf intervention. They see the preservation of the world and the good things in it as a noble responsibility that falls on their shoulders alone, because nobody else is up to the task. The fact that they're not always wrong on this just serves to reinforce their beliefs and rub everyone else up the wrong way.
** The Druchii (Dark Elves) are obsessed with conquest and domination, and their take on elven superiority is that elves are so much better than everyone else that they can and should take what they want. Elves deserve to rule the world, and the lesser races exist for them to enslave or murder at whim.

to:

** The Asur (High Elves) behave with a kind of patronising paternalism towards the lesser races - they think that poor, feeble humans and dwarfs are constantly in need of their help, and should be saved from themselves by High Elf intervention. They see the preservation of the world and the good things in it as a noble responsibility that falls on their shoulders alone, because nobody else is up to the task. The fact that they're not always wrong on this just serves to reinforce their beliefs and rub everyone else up the wrong way.
way.
** The Druchii (Dark Elves) are obsessed with conquest and domination, and their take on elven superiority is that elves are so much better than everyone else that they can and should take what they want. Elves deserve to rule the world, and the lesser races exist for them to enslave or murder at whim.



* The Eldar of ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'' play this trope straight in every dealing with the "lesser races". It often fails to work because the other races are either AlwaysChaoticEvil and AxCrazy or [[FantasticRacism Xenophobes]] and inevitably tell them ScrewYouElves with the biggest and nastiest guns at hand. Not that the Eldar are any better...

to:

* The Eldar of ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer 40000}}'' ''TabletopGame/Warhammer40000'' play this trope straight in every dealing with the "lesser races". It often fails to work because the other races are either AlwaysChaoticEvil and AxCrazy or [[FantasticRacism Xenophobes]] and inevitably tell them ScrewYouElves with the biggest and nastiest guns at hand. Not that the Eldar are any better...



* In second-ed D&D setting ''TabletopGame/{{Planescape}}'' all planars saw themselves as inherently superior to primes (anyone from the Prime Material Plane, [[TropeBreaker including elves]]). [[TabletopGame/ForgottenRealms Toril]], [[TabletopGame/{{Dragonlance}} Krynn]], [[TabletopGame/DarkSun Athas]] - it didn't matter where on the Prime you were from or which race you were, until you proved otherwise you were Clueless and had no idea how the planes worked or what the answers to life were.

to:

* In second-ed D&D setting ''TabletopGame/{{Planescape}}'' all planars saw themselves as inherently superior to primes (anyone from the Prime Material Plane, [[TropeBreaker including elves]]). [[TabletopGame/ForgottenRealms Toril]], [[TabletopGame/{{Dragonlance}} Krynn]], [[TabletopGame/DarkSun Athas]] - it didn't matter where on the Prime you were from or which race you were, until you proved otherwise you were Clueless and had no idea how the planes worked or what the answers to life were.



* Inverted in ''Franchise/DragonAge'' where elves are considered lesser and barbaric by the humans, who take up the arrogant mantle and enslave the elves; even after the elves are freed from slavery they're still third class citizens.

to:

* Inverted in ''Franchise/DragonAge'' where elves are considered lesser and barbaric by the humans, who take up the arrogant mantle and enslave the elves; even after the elves are freed from slavery they're still third class third-class citizens.



** While not elves, the qunari are a straighter example of the trope [[note]]Then there's Tallis, a [[TheScrappy Scrappy]] who's a qunari ''and'' an elf[[/note]]. The general argument presented is that qunari are perfect because they are ordered and the only people we see oppose what they want are either massive strawmen or religious fanatics who see them only as heretics. Even [[PlayerCharacter Hawke]] only gets to call them butchers. It is ignored how they take children away from their parents, force others to accept only one role in life, and are blind to the fact that they might be wrong.
*** Inquisition finally gets a better perspective on the Qun via Iron Bull. Bull very much seems to think that the Qun is better in many ways, they are ordered, well trained, and seem pretty good at determining a profession a person is well suited for. However, it is emphasized that it works well because they eradicate anything that works outside of their idea of order. Re-education was mentioned. If you live the life the Qun sets out for you, it will be good. If you deviate from it or waver in your dedication, you will be brainwashed, exiled, or killed.

to:

** While not elves, the qunari are a straighter example of the trope trope.[[note]]Then there's Tallis, a [[TheScrappy Scrappy]] who's a qunari ''and'' an elf[[/note]]. elf.[[/note]] The general argument presented is that qunari are perfect because they are ordered and the only people we see oppose what they want are either massive strawmen or religious fanatics who see them only as heretics. Even [[PlayerCharacter Hawke]] only gets to call them butchers. It is ignored how they take children away from their parents, force others to accept only one role in life, and are blind to the fact that they might be wrong.
wrong.
*** Inquisition finally gets a better perspective on the Qun via Iron Bull. Bull very much seems to think that the Qun is better in many ways, they are ordered, well trained, and seem pretty good at determining a profession a person is well suited for. However, it is emphasized that it works well because they eradicate anything that works outside of their idea of order. Re-education was mentioned. If you live the life the Qun sets out for you, it will be good. If you deviate from it or waver in your dedication, you will be brainwashed, exiled, or killed.



*** While this was only in supplementary material rather than in the main games themselves, the Qunari had already been presented as one of the {{Big Bad}}s in the Dragon Age comic series, ''Those Who Speak'', subverting this trope good and proper. Alistair, Varric and Isabela are captured by the Qunari and, after a few weeks in prison, Alistair and Varric are taken to the new Arishok, who is [[spoiler: actually Sten, Alistair's old friend from his adventures in Origins]], someone who has a lot of respect for Alistair...and all this earns him is a backhand to the face and imprisonment for him and Varric in the nicer-looking cells, while Isabela is taken to be tortured and re-educated by a Tamassran (her crew have also been captured and kept in these pit-like cells). It takes [[spoiler: Alistair defeating Arishok in single combat]] for them to actually lay off and entertain the idea of an alliance. While they do become allies in the end, it still proves that Qunari philosophy isn't actually that compassionate to anyone who isn't Qunari, even if that person is "Basalit-an" (a respected outsider) or even their "kadan" (a close friend or loved one).

to:

*** While this was only in supplementary material rather than in the main games themselves, the Qunari had already been presented as one of the {{Big Bad}}s in the Dragon Age comic series, ''Those Who Speak'', subverting this trope good and proper. Alistair, Varric and Isabela are captured by the Qunari and, after a few weeks in prison, Alistair and Varric are taken to the new Arishok, who is [[spoiler: actually [[spoiler:actually Sten, Alistair's old friend from his adventures in Origins]], someone who has a lot of respect for Alistair...Alistair... and all this earns him is a backhand to the face and imprisonment for him and Varric in the nicer-looking cells, while Isabela is taken to be tortured and re-educated by a Tamassran (her crew have also been captured and kept in these pit-like cells). It takes [[spoiler: Alistair [[spoiler:Alistair defeating Arishok in single combat]] for them to actually lay off and entertain the idea of an alliance. While they do become allies in the end, it still proves that Qunari philosophy isn't actually that compassionate to anyone who isn't Qunari, even if that person is "Basalit-an" (a respected outsider) or even their "kadan" (a close friend or loved one).



* The Mandalorians in ''VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublicIITheSithLords'' will not hesitate to outline how they are, in every way conceivable, superior to those puny little Jedi. Considering you ''are'' a Jedi in the game, it is surprising how little opportunity you get to disagree with them. Particularly interesting is that you ''can'' badmouth the Mandalorians but only as long as none of them are actually within earshot...[[note]] The Exile has ''good'' reason to dislike - even hate - ''Mando'ade'', as they are a hardened and ShellShockedVeteran of a horrific war with that faction.[[/note]] You can defeat them in honorable combat in their sparring matches, which gets most of them to respect your skills. Not to mention how many of these [[ScrewYouElves "perfect" warriors you mow down in the game]]. There's also [[LightIsNotGood Atris]] and [[AuthorAvatar Kreia]] scolding you at every opportunity they can.

to:

* The Mandalorians in ''VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublicIITheSithLords'' will not hesitate to outline how they are, in every way conceivable, superior to those puny little Jedi. Considering you ''are'' a Jedi in the game, it is surprising how little opportunity you get to disagree with them. Particularly interesting is that you ''can'' badmouth the Mandalorians but only as long as none of them are actually within earshot...[[note]] The Exile has ''good'' reason to dislike - even hate - ''Mando'ade'', as they are a hardened and ShellShockedVeteran of a horrific war with that faction.[[/note]] You can defeat them in honorable combat in their sparring matches, which gets most of them to respect your skills. Not to mention how many of these [[ScrewYouElves "perfect" warriors you mow down in the game]]. There's also [[LightIsNotGood Atris]] and [[AuthorAvatar Kreia]] scolding you at every opportunity they can.



** However, when you are light aligned Sith, you get the chance to shove their arguments right back in their face more often than not. Some of them will even listen to reason and back down, especially in the Warrior path (Jedi starting needless fights out of sheer arrogance is a minor RunningGag in the Light Inquisor path). As a Dark aligned Sith, you generally just don't give a damn what they think. They are about to die after all.
* ''Franchise/MassEffect'' does this quite often with the [[{{Jerkass}} Turian councilor]]. If you [[spoiler:free the Rachni Queen]], he chastises you for loosing a potentially fatal threat upon the galaxy. If you opt to [[spoiler:kill the Queen instead]], he asks if you routinely commit genocide. The guy just can't be pleased, most likely due to FantasticRacism.
** The Asari also frequently exhibit this attitude, though it gets blown out of the water by the third game. And from conversations with Javik, it's implied the [[spoiler: Protheans]] were like this too.

to:

** However, when you are light aligned light-aligned Sith, you get the chance to shove their arguments right back in their face more often than not. Some of them will even listen to reason and back down, especially in the Warrior path (Jedi starting needless fights out of sheer arrogance is a minor RunningGag in the Light Inquisor path). As a Dark aligned Dark-aligned Sith, you generally just don't give a damn what they think. They are about to die after all.
* ''Franchise/MassEffect'' does this quite often with the [[{{Jerkass}} Turian turian councilor]]. If you [[spoiler:free the Rachni Queen]], he chastises you for loosing a potentially fatal threat upon the galaxy. If you opt to [[spoiler:kill the Queen instead]], he asks if you routinely commit genocide. The guy just can't be pleased, most likely due to FantasticRacism.
** The Asari asari also frequently exhibit this attitude, though it gets blown out of the water by the third game. And from conversations with Javik, it's implied the [[spoiler: Protheans]] [[spoiler:Protheans]] were like this this, too.



* Both played straight and subverted in ''VideoGame/ArcanumOfSteamworksAndMagickObscura'' where the all nature and magic elven society is falling to the rampant industrialism of humans, gnomes and dwarves. This brought to a separation of the elves in two branches: light and dark. Light elves are comparably decent - but still quite {{jerkass}} - folks who are content to let the other people live their own lives. The Dark ones are convinced of the innate superiority of elvenkind and despise all the other races as lesser. The fact that both branches are mostly going deeper and deeper into wilderness, leaving place for industrialism of other races makes them an almost literal local version of MagicalNativeAmerican.

to:

* Both played straight and subverted in ''VideoGame/ArcanumOfSteamworksAndMagickObscura'' where the all nature and magic elven society is falling to the rampant industrialism of humans, gnomes and dwarves. This brought to a separation of the elves in two branches: light and dark. Light elves are comparably decent - but still quite {{jerkass}} - folks who are content to let the other people live their own lives. The Dark ones are convinced of the innate superiority of elvenkind and despise all the other races as lesser. The fact that both branches are mostly going deeper and deeper into wilderness, leaving place for industrialism of other races makes them an almost literal local version of MagicalNativeAmerican.



** The Altmer (High Elves) take the cake as the haughtiest culture in Tamriel. They are indeed responsible for much of Tamriel's art, science, philosophy, language and religion, and (while there are exceptions) [[CulturalPosturing they have no issue letting the other races know]] just how superior they believe they are. They are the direct descendants of the [[{{Precursors}} Aldmer (First Elves)]] and consider the other races of Mer as a result of "degeneration" over the ages. (And don't even ''bother'' trying to bring up the [[HumansAreBastards races of Men]]...) Their religious beliefs state that they are the true descendants of the [[OurGodsAreDifferent Aedra]], and the 4th Era ascension of the [[ANaziByAnyOtherName Thalmor]] into positions of leadership within the [[AntiHumanAlliance Aldmeri Dominion]] has only exacerbated their beliefs of superiority. The other races react to this belief in a predictable fashion, and often [[ScrewYouElves do argue with them]], ranging between general disagreement and contempt (the majority of people, including quite a few of their [[MySpeciesDothProtestTooMuch [[fellow Altmer]]) to outright open conflict (the Cyrodiilic Empire and the Stormcloaks of Skyrim). The Thalmor play up the ancient Aldmeri belief that Mundus, the mortal world, is a horrible, forsaken prison and that the creators of it did so out of malice. Thus, they act to [[OmnicidalManiac destroy the world]], believing it will return their divine spirits to a state of [[AscendToAHigherPlaneOfExistence pre-creation divinity]].

to:

** The Altmer (High Elves) take the cake as the haughtiest culture in Tamriel. They are indeed responsible for much of Tamriel's art, science, philosophy, language and religion, and (while there are exceptions) [[CulturalPosturing they have no issue letting the other races know]] just how superior they believe they are. They are the direct descendants of the [[{{Precursors}} Aldmer (First Elves)]] and consider the other races of Mer as a result of "degeneration" over the ages. (And don't even ''bother'' trying to bring up the [[HumansAreBastards races of Men]]...) Their religious beliefs state that they are the true descendants of the [[OurGodsAreDifferent Aedra]], and the 4th Era ascension of the [[ANaziByAnyOtherName Thalmor]] into positions of leadership within the [[AntiHumanAlliance Aldmeri Dominion]] has only exacerbated their beliefs of superiority. The other races react to this belief in a predictable fashion, and often [[ScrewYouElves do argue with them]], ranging between general disagreement and contempt (the majority of people, including quite a few of their [[MySpeciesDothProtestTooMuch [[fellow fellow Altmer]]) to outright open conflict (the Cyrodiilic Empire and the Stormcloaks of Skyrim). The Thalmor play up the ancient Aldmeri belief that Mundus, the Mundus (the mortal world, world) is a horrible, forsaken prison and that the creators of it did so out of malice. Thus, they act to [[OmnicidalManiac destroy the world]], believing it will return their divine spirits to a state of [[AscendToAHigherPlaneOfExistence pre-creation divinity]].



** The Bosmer (Wood Elves) actually tend to be very curious and are more an inversion of this trope as they tend to cause more trouble than the human races do by sticking their noses into other people's business. Notably, it is believed that they have [[UnevenHybrid some human ancestry]], leading to them being a little [[BlueAndOrangeMorality less alien]] than some of the other races of Mer from a human perspective.
** The extinct [[OurDwarvesAreDifferent Dwemer (Deep Elves or "Dwarves")]], were an industrious, highly intelligent, and extremely [[{{Magitek}} technologically]] [[SteamPunk advanced]] people, but were also known to be cruel, arrogant, and dogmatic. Contemporary accounts describe them as "unfathomable" and "unknowable", with [[BlueAndOrangeMorality truly alien belief systems]] unlike anyone else in Tamriel. It's said that even the ''dullest'' of their kind was still a genius compared to a clever man. They went so far as to try and [[AscendToAHigherPlaneOfExistence make themselves Gods]], and managed to [[RiddleForTheAges vanish completely]], the whole race. Now [[LookOnMyWorksYeMightyAndDespair all that is left are their machines and ruins]], picked clean by centuries of looters.
* The Fae in ''VideoGame/KingdomsOfAmalurReckoning'' more accurately play this role than the actual elves of the setting though for the most part this is subverted as you can argue with and even choose to [[ScrewYouElves subvert the culture and/or lives of those fae or elves who put on airs.]] The leaders of the Fae such as High King Titarion and Prince Cydan avert this by acknowledging that the Fae are in their twilight and show respect towards mortals.

to:

** The Bosmer (Wood Elves) actually tend to be very curious and are more an inversion of this trope trope, as they tend to cause more trouble than the human races do by sticking their noses into other people's business. Notably, it is believed that they have [[UnevenHybrid some human ancestry]], leading to them being a little [[BlueAndOrangeMorality less alien]] than some of the other races of Mer from a human perspective.
perspective.
** The extinct [[OurDwarvesAreDifferent Dwemer (Deep Elves or "Dwarves")]], "Dwarves")]] were an industrious, highly intelligent, and extremely [[{{Magitek}} technologically]] [[SteamPunk advanced]] people, but were also known to be cruel, arrogant, and dogmatic. Contemporary accounts describe them as "unfathomable" and "unknowable", "unknowable," with [[BlueAndOrangeMorality truly alien belief systems]] unlike anyone else in Tamriel. It's said that even the ''dullest'' of their kind was still a genius compared to a clever man. They went so far as to try and [[AscendToAHigherPlaneOfExistence make themselves Gods]], and managed to [[RiddleForTheAges vanish completely]], the whole race. Now [[LookOnMyWorksYeMightyAndDespair all that is left are their machines and ruins]], picked clean by centuries of looters.
looters.
* The Fae in ''VideoGame/KingdomsOfAmalurReckoning'' more accurately play this role than the actual elves of the setting though for the most part this is subverted as you can argue with and even choose to [[ScrewYouElves subvert the culture and/or lives of those fae or elves who put on airs.]] airs]]. The leaders of the Fae such as High King Titarion and Prince Cydan avert this by acknowledging that the Fae are in their twilight and show respect towards mortals.



* In ''Franchise/StarCraft'', given the nature of the Protoss as ScaryDogmaticAliens with very advanced technology, Terrans try to not get in trouble with them. This makes Raynor being the exception much more significant - it does not matter if it's an Executor that has just arrived with her fleet to burn a planet down[[note]]Selendis in ''Wings of Liberty''[[/note]], or a member of the Judicator Caste that ruled Aiur [[note]]Aldaris in the first game's first Protoss campaign[[/note]] - he ''will'' call them out of it. Raynor's case is {{justified|Trope}}, however, in that he was forced to help two Protoss forces in Char due to Kerrigan leaving them stranded there - by the time Aldaris arrives, Raynor was already used to Zeratul and Tassadar, and saw Protoss more like equals.

to:

* In ''Franchise/StarCraft'', given the nature of the Protoss as ScaryDogmaticAliens with very advanced technology, Terrans try to not get in trouble with them. This makes Raynor being the exception much more significant - it does not matter if it's an Executor that has just arrived with her fleet to burn a planet down[[note]]Selendis in ''Wings of Liberty''[[/note]], or a member of the Judicator Caste that ruled Aiur [[note]]Aldaris in the first game's first Protoss campaign[[/note]] - he ''will'' call them out of it. Raynor's case is {{justified|Trope}}, however, in that he was forced to help two Protoss forces in Char due to Kerrigan leaving them stranded there - by the time Aldaris arrives, Raynor was already used to Zeratul and Tassadar, and saw Protoss more like equals.



* The elves in ''Webcomic/EightBitTheater'' parody this aspect of elves, making them so obsessed with their own superiority that they believe all other races, and even some of the gods, exist as leftover genetic material that wasn't good enough for elves. This may also go some way towards explaining why they're on technological par with humans in spite of a nine-thousand-year head start. Maybe Fighter wasn't the one who needed the trial of sloth.\\

to:

* The elves in ''Webcomic/EightBitTheater'' parody this aspect of elves, making them so obsessed with their own superiority that they believe all other races, and even some of the gods, exist as leftover genetic material that wasn't good enough for elves. This may also go some way towards explaining why they're on technological par with humans in spite of a nine-thousand-year 9,000-year head start. Maybe Fighter wasn't the one who needed the trial of sloth.\\



* In ''Webcomic/ErrantStory'', the elves' belief in their own superiority has led to multiple instances of genocide. Considering the trolls to be flawed and mistaken creations of their gods, they made a pretty good effort at exterminating them but did not succeed. They nearly did the same thing to humans before deciding to instead "uplift" the humans by using them as servants. Then after a few human-elf hybrids went violently insane they decided to kill all half-elves. This backfired as [[HoistByHisOwnPetard the resulting racial and civil war nearly exterminated the elves]] and they spent the next thousand years hiding from the rest of the world in an underground city.

to:

* In ''Webcomic/ErrantStory'', the elves' belief in their own superiority has led to multiple instances of genocide. Considering the trolls to be flawed and mistaken creations of their gods, they made a pretty good effort at exterminating them but did not succeed. They nearly did the same thing to humans before deciding to instead "uplift" the humans by using them as servants. Then after a few human-elf human–elf hybrids went violently insane they decided to kill all half-elves. This backfired as [[HoistByHisOwnPetard the resulting racial and civil war nearly exterminated the elves]] and they spent the next thousand years hiding from the rest of the world in an underground city.



* In place of Elves, ''Webcomic/TheInexplicableAdventuresOfBob'' has the Nemesites, an alien empire that has legally owned the Earth since before humanity evolved, but considers us wildlife and generally ignores us. Having made a few friends on Earth, Princess Voluptua has become [[IntriguedByHumanity fond of us]] and wants the Empire to do right by us, but even she tends to talk about humans in a patronizing manner, calling us "[[YourLittleDismissiveDiminutive little critters]]" and the like. Jean is always quick to [[ScrewYouElves tell her where to stick that kind of talk.]]

to:

* In place of Elves, ''Webcomic/TheInexplicableAdventuresOfBob'' has the Nemesites, an alien empire that has legally owned the Earth since before humanity evolved, but considers us wildlife and generally ignores us. Having made a few friends on Earth, Princess Voluptua has become [[IntriguedByHumanity fond of us]] and wants the Empire to do right by us, but even she tends to talk about humans in a patronizing manner, calling us "[[YourLittleDismissiveDiminutive little critters]]" and the like. Jean is always quick to [[ScrewYouElves tell her where to stick that kind of talk.]]talk]].



4th Feb '18 9:50:23 AM nombretomado
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* The Aurënfaie in Lynn Flewelling's ''{{Nightrunner}}'' novels have this going on in spades. Longer lifespans (and thus perceived greater experience and wisdom) than humans. Check. Innate magical potential (all the more because human magical potential originates from [[HalfHumanHybrid cross-breeding]] with them). Check. A language that is difficult for most humans to pronounce properly. Check. [[OurGodsAreDifferent Monotheistic religion]] while the humans are following their own gaggle of silly gods. Check. Tendency to drag out any kind of decision making for a length of time that makes most humans want to give up and leave. Check.

to:

* The Aurënfaie in Lynn Flewelling's ''{{Nightrunner}}'' ''Literature/{{Nightrunner}}'' novels have this going on in spades. Longer lifespans (and thus perceived greater experience and wisdom) than humans. Check. Innate magical potential (all the more because human magical potential originates from [[HalfHumanHybrid cross-breeding]] with them). Check. A language that is difficult for most humans to pronounce properly. Check. [[OurGodsAreDifferent Monotheistic religion]] while the humans are following their own gaggle of silly gods. Check. Tendency to drag out any kind of decision making for a length of time that makes most humans want to give up and leave. Check.
1st Feb '18 6:33:36 AM captainpat
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* The elves in ''LightNovel/TheFamiliarOfZero'' are depicted as such, fitting almost every quality in the trope description.



[[folder: Comic Strips]]
* [[ComicStrip/PhoebeAndHerUnicorn Marigold Heavenly Nostrils]] is a unicorn version of this trope, except when she comes across something [[{{Narcissist}} reflective]].
[[/folder]]



* Neatly deconstructed in the ''WesternAnimation/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagic'' [[FanficRecs/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicHumans "Human" fic]], ''[[http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7721108/1/ What Separates]]''. Twilight initially takes the "elf" role after the arrival of a human soldier from TwentyMinutesIntoTheFuture, but over time realizes that 1) some of the stated flaws of humanity are based on unfair assumptions or generalizations; and 2) the Ponies can live a more idyllic lifestyle because they have magic and, with that, a much greater degree of control over their environment.

to:

* Neatly deconstructed Deconstructed in the ''WesternAnimation/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagic'' [[FanficRecs/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagicHumans "Human" fic]], ''[[http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7721108/1/ What Separates]]''. Twilight initially takes the "elf" role after the arrival of a human soldier from TwentyMinutesIntoTheFuture, but over time realizes that 1) some of the stated flaws of humanity are based on unfair assumptions or generalizations; and 2) the Ponies can live a more idyllic lifestyle because they have magic and, with that, a much greater degree of control over their environment.
15th Jan '18 11:12:41 AM HelloLamppost
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* In place of Elves, ''Webcomic/TheInexplicableAdventuresOfBob'' has the Nemesites, an alien empire that has legally owned the Earth since before humanity evolved, but considers us wildlife and generally ignores us. Having made a few friends on Earth, Princess Voluptua has become fond of us and wants the Empire to do right by us, but even she tends to talk about humans in a patronizing manner, calling us "little critters" and the like. Jean is always quick to [[ScrewYouElves tell her where to stick that kind of talk.]]

to:

* In place of Elves, ''Webcomic/TheInexplicableAdventuresOfBob'' has the Nemesites, an alien empire that has legally owned the Earth since before humanity evolved, but considers us wildlife and generally ignores us. Having made a few friends on Earth, Princess Voluptua has become [[IntriguedByHumanity fond of us us]] and wants the Empire to do right by us, but even she tends to talk about humans in a patronizing manner, calling us "little critters" "[[YourLittleDismissiveDiminutive little critters]]" and the like. Jean is always quick to [[ScrewYouElves tell her where to stick that kind of talk.]]
15th Jan '18 11:11:28 AM HelloLamppost
Is there an issue? Send a Message

Added DiffLines:

* In place of Elves, ''Webcomic/TheInexplicableAdventuresOfBob'' has the Nemesites, an alien empire that has legally owned the Earth since before humanity evolved, but considers us wildlife and generally ignores us. Having made a few friends on Earth, Princess Voluptua has become fond of us and wants the Empire to do right by us, but even she tends to talk about humans in a patronizing manner, calling us "little critters" and the like. Jean is always quick to [[ScrewYouElves tell her where to stick that kind of talk.]]
12th Jan '18 6:16:46 PM nombretomado
Is there an issue? Send a Message


%% Please don't add a JustifyingEdit. If you want to rant about how much the Na'vi were jerks, we have discussion pages and forums.

to:

%% Please don't add a JustifyingEdit.Administrivia/JustifyingEdit. If you want to rant about how much the Na'vi were jerks, we have discussion pages and forums.
1st Jan '18 11:50:45 PM azul120
Is there an issue? Send a Message


Not a bad thing if the creator intends for the characters in question to appear arrogant and annoying. But there are plenty of cases in which even the audience is supposed to share this view, which has you ending up with an entire race of [[MarySue Mary Sues]].

to:

Not a bad thing if the creator intends for the characters in question to appear [[HolierThanThou arrogant and annoying. annoying]]. But there are plenty of cases in which even the audience is supposed to share this view, which has you ending up with an entire race of [[MarySue Mary Sues]].
{{Mary Sue}}s.



* This, and the character types associated with it, are deconstructed with Aresia in ''WesternAnimation/JusticeLeague''. Stories like ''ComicBook/AmazonsAttack'' notwithstanding, the Amazons are typically portrayed as a superior people, with superior morality, strength and wisdom to those of "man's world." The bulk of Amazons act like this: dismissive of non-Amazons, and appealing to man's world's obvious inferiority when anyone challenges them on it. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, tends more towards "yeah, they're inferior, but it's our duty to protect them from themselves." After a few arcs where both of these are called out, Aresia -- a non-Amazon who's been raised under the Amazons' CantArgueWithElves mentality, takes it to its logical conclusion and attempts to [[{{Gendercide}} kill all men on the planet]] and taking this stance with everyone who tried to stop her -- even Wonder Woman herself.

to:

* This, and the character types associated with it, are deconstructed with Aresia in ''WesternAnimation/JusticeLeague''. Stories like ''ComicBook/AmazonsAttack'' notwithstanding, the Amazons are typically portrayed as a superior people, with superior morality, strength and wisdom to those of "man's world." The bulk of Amazons act like this: dismissive of non-Amazons, and appealing to man's world's obvious inferiority when anyone challenges them on it. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, tends more towards "yeah, they're inferior, but it's our duty to protect them from themselves." After a few arcs where both of these are called out, Aresia -- a non-Amazon who's been raised under the Amazons' CantArgueWithElves Can't Argue With Elves mentality, takes it to its logical conclusion and attempts to [[{{Gendercide}} kill all men on the planet]] and taking this stance with everyone who tried to stop her -- even Wonder Woman herself.
22nd Dec '17 3:33:05 PM Malady
Is there an issue? Send a Message


* An interesting aversion occurs in Terry Brooks' ''{{Shannara}}'' series. The elves there are the only sapient race not descended from humanity, and really are older and more naturally magical than humanity or the other races. Interestingly, though, they had, well before the beginning of the first series, forgotten their heritage and the vast bulk of their magical abilities. That is not to say that there were no arrogant elves, but the primary victims of their arrogance were other elves. The elves as a people had no particular sense of superiority, even during periods when they were among the best organized and most powerful factions.

to:

* An interesting aversion occurs in Terry Brooks' ''{{Shannara}}'' ''Literature/{{Shannara}}'' series. The elves there are the only sapient race not descended from humanity, and really are older and more naturally magical than humanity or the other races. Interestingly, though, they had, well before the beginning of the first series, forgotten their heritage and the vast bulk of their magical abilities. That is not to say that there were no arrogant elves, but the primary victims of their arrogance were other elves. The elves as a people had no particular sense of superiority, even during periods when they were among the best organized and most powerful factions.
This list shows the last 10 events of 359. Show all.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Main.CanTArgueWithElves