History Main / CanTArgueWithElves

8th Jun '17 6:27:39 AM Fireblood
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* ''Webcomic/ExistentialComics'': You most certainly can when you are Foucault, Chomsky and Fanon. Chomsky, in a parody of his usual style of criticizing America's foreign policy, notes how in a poll conducted ([[VerbalTic by Sindar no less]]) the greatest threat to Middle-Earth's peace in the eyes of Hobbits, Dwarves, Humans, Trolls, Orcs was the Elves.
28th May '17 1:14:55 PM EdwardGil
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*** Frodo himself in ''Literature/FellowshipOfTheRing'' gently mocks Gildor's NonAnswer to his question by coming up with a fake "proverb" that one can't ask an elf anything, because they say yes and no at the same time. Averted because Gildor himself thought it was ActuallyPrettyFunny.
27th May '17 3:17:00 PM Chuckles1188
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** This is something of a JustifiedTrope (to the extent that it even applies) once you read the backstory - the living Elves remaining in Middle-Earth by the time of The War of the Ring are the last survivors of a once-great race who have endured a series of rather catastrophic wars which basically ended their control of the land. As a result, the remainder are a) atypically intelligent, kind, and badass, and b) very much aware of their people's past failings. Basically, all the Elves you Could Argue With were killed or left Middle-Earth for good centuries ago.



** This is something of a JustifiedTrope (to the extent that it even applies) once you read the backstory - the living Elves remaining in Middle-Earth by the time of The War of the Ring are the last survivors of a once-great race who have endured a series of rather catastrophic wars which basically ended their control of the land. As a result, the remainder are a) atypically intelligent, kind, and badass, and b) very much aware of their people's past failings. Basically, all the Elves you Could Argue With were killed or left Middle-Earth for good centuries ago.
27th May '17 3:16:34 PM Chuckles1188
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** This is something of a JustifiedTrope (to the extent that it even applies) once you read the backstory - the living Elves remaining in Middle-Earth by the time of The War of the Ring are the last survivors of a once-great race who have endured a series of rather catastrophic wars which basically ended their race's control of the land. As a result, the remainder are a) atypically intelligent, kind, and Badass, and b) very much aware of their people's past failings. Basically, all the Elves you Could Argue With were killed or left Middle-Earth for good centuries ago.

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** This is something of a JustifiedTrope (to the extent that it even applies) once you read the backstory - the living Elves remaining in Middle-Earth by the time of The War of the Ring are the last survivors of a once-great race who have endured a series of rather catastrophic wars which basically ended their race's control of the land. As a result, the remainder are a) atypically intelligent, kind, and Badass, badass, and b) very much aware of their people's past failings. Basically, all the Elves you Could Argue With were killed or left Middle-Earth for good centuries ago.
27th May '17 3:15:54 PM Chuckles1188
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** This is something of a JustifiedTrope (to the extent that it even applies) once you read the backstory - the living Elves remaining in Middle-Earth by the time of The War of the Ring are the last survivors of a once-great race who have endured a series of rather catastrophic wars which basically ended their race's control of the land. As a result, the remainder are a) atypically intelligent, kind, and Badass, and b) very much aware of their people's past failings. Basically, all the Elves you Could Argue With were killed or left Middle-Earth for good centuries ago.
26th May '17 10:13:44 AM Paireon
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** Through all of this, however, Thranduil is not necessarily depicted as ''right.'' He's right sometimes, but then so is Thorin, and Bard, and Bilbo, and Gandalf, and plenty of other non-elves. His {{Jerkass}} tendencies eventually lead to his son, the last person he cared about, leaving him.

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** Through all of this, however, Thranduil is not necessarily depicted as ''right.'' He's right sometimes, but then so is Thorin, and Bard, and Bilbo, and Gandalf, and plenty of other non-elves. His {{Jerkass}} tendencies eventually lead to his son, son Legolas, the last person he cared about, leaving him.






* The elves of ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer}}'' play the trope very straight indeed. The existence of the Elves' natural arrogance is thought to be a result of their exposure to the wild magics that have saturated the Warhammer world since the coming of the Old Ones. Elves are very resistant to magic, thanks to their natural affinity for it, but not completely immune. Rather than physical mutation and madness, such as humans might develop, this racial trait is the price Elves pay (just as the Dwarfs have been made universally stubborn and covetous for gold). But alhough they share the same basic psychological substrate, the three different kindreds of elves - High, Dark and Wood Elves, express it in very different ways. Indeed, it might almost be said that the manner in which different elves manifest their race's natural sense of arrogant superiority is the defining feature of the different kindreds' cultures:

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* The elves of ''TabletopGame/{{Warhammer}}'' play the trope very straight indeed. The existence of the Elves' natural arrogance is thought to be a result of their exposure to the wild magics that have saturated the Warhammer world since the coming of the Old Ones. Elves are very resistant to magic, thanks to their natural affinity for it, but not completely immune. Rather than physical mutation and madness, such as humans might develop, this racial trait is the price Elves pay (just as the Dwarfs have been made universally stubborn and covetous for gold). But alhough although they share the same basic psychological substrate, the three different kindreds of elves - High, Dark and Wood Elves, express it in very different ways. Indeed, it might almost be said that the manner in which different elves manifest their race's natural sense of arrogant superiority is the defining feature of the different kindreds' cultures:



** Elaboratting on that, there was only one Viera in the game who seemed to outright like Humes and the world outside her village, but she was a bit... weird (her "liking" could be argued to be fetish). There is a young Viera who was a unsure what to think of the outside world, but at least she liked to be around Hume children. There are two traveling Viera who were very disappointed to what the world had to offer, and only were impressed after watching the sea, of all things. Fran, one of the main characters and a Viera who has led a pretty interesting life and is best friends (and possibly more) with a Hume, seemed quite regretful of leaving the village and cutting her connection with the supernatural woods, calling it a life of solitude.
* Inverted in ''Franchise/DragonAge'' where elves are considered lesser and barbaric by the humans, who take up the arrogant mantle and enslave the elves, even after the elves are freed from slavery they're still third class citizens.

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** Elaboratting on that, there was only one Viera in the game who seemed to outright like Humes and the world outside her village, but she was a bit... weird (her "liking" could be argued to be fetish). There is a young Viera who was a unsure what to think of the outside world, but at least she liked to be around Hume children. There are two traveling Viera who were very disappointed to by what the world had to offer, and only were impressed after watching the sea, of all things. Fran, one of the main characters and a Viera who has led a pretty interesting life and is best friends (and possibly more) with a Hume, seemed quite regretful of leaving the village and cutting her connection with the supernatural woods, calling it a life of solitude.
* Inverted in ''Franchise/DragonAge'' where elves are considered lesser and barbaric by the humans, who take up the arrogant mantle and enslave the elves, elves; even after the elves are freed from slavery they're still third class citizens.



** Seems to be playing straight with Solas at the end of Inquisition, who seeks to restore the ancient elven empire (that could effortlessly use magic and was technologically superior to anyone else in Thedas during its heyday) and tear down the Veil, regardless of the harm to Thedas.

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** Seems to be playing played straight with Solas [[spoiler:Solas]] at the end of Inquisition, who seeks to restore the ancient elven empire (that could effortlessly use magic and was technologically superior to anyone else in Thedas during its heyday) and tear down the Veil, regardless of the harm to Thedas.



*** Inquisition's DLC Trespasser then completely {{subverts}} this trope by making the Qunari the BigBad of the entire DLC (as well as giving a ''highly'' negative portrayal of the Qun). It's worth noting that the negative implications had been the since Origins, but this is the first time that they are really in the player's face.
*** While this was only in supplementary material rather than in the main games themselves, the Qunari had already been presented as one of the [[BigBad Big Bads]] in the Dragon Age comic series, ''Those Who Speak'', subverting this trope good and proper. Alistair, Varric and Isabela are captured by the Qunari and, after a few weeks in prison, Alistair and Varric are taken to the new Arishok, who is [[spoiler: actually Sten, Alistair's old friend from his adventures in Origins]], someone who has a lot of respect for Alistair...and all this earns him is a backhand to the face and imprisonment for him and Varric in the nicer-looking cells, while Isabela is taken to be tortured and re-educated by a Tamassran (her crew have also been captured and kept in these pit-like cells). It takes [[spoiler: Alistair defeating Arishok in single combat]] for them to actually lay off and entertain the idea of an alliance. While they do become allies in the end, it still proves that Qunari philosophy isn't actually that compassionate to anyone who isn't Qunari, even if that person is "Basalit-an" (a respected outsider) or even their "kadan" (a close friend or loved one).

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*** Inquisition's DLC Trespasser then completely {{subverts}} this trope by making the Qunari the BigBad of the entire DLC (as well as giving a ''highly'' negative portrayal of the Qun). It's worth noting that the negative implications had been the there since Origins, but this is the first time that they are really in the player's face.
*** While this was only in supplementary material rather than in the main games themselves, the Qunari had already been presented as one of the [[BigBad Big Bads]] {{Big Bad}}s in the Dragon Age comic series, ''Those Who Speak'', subverting this trope good and proper. Alistair, Varric and Isabela are captured by the Qunari and, after a few weeks in prison, Alistair and Varric are taken to the new Arishok, who is [[spoiler: actually Sten, Alistair's old friend from his adventures in Origins]], someone who has a lot of respect for Alistair...and all this earns him is a backhand to the face and imprisonment for him and Varric in the nicer-looking cells, while Isabela is taken to be tortured and re-educated by a Tamassran (her crew have also been captured and kept in these pit-like cells). It takes [[spoiler: Alistair defeating Arishok in single combat]] for them to actually lay off and entertain the idea of an alliance. While they do become allies in the end, it still proves that Qunari philosophy isn't actually that compassionate to anyone who isn't Qunari, even if that person is "Basalit-an" (a respected outsider) or even their "kadan" (a close friend or loved one).



* In ''VideoGame/WorldOfWarcraft'', there are three types of elf (Night, Blood, and High), all of which clearly believe themselves awesome and superior but are blatantly flawed just like all other [[GreyAndGreyMorality Warcraft races]]: elves are prone to FantasticRacism, Bloods get themselves into deep trouble experimenting with magic, while Night Elfs won't help the other races against global threats until it's absolutely necessary.
* Both played straight and subverted in ''VideoGame/ArcanumOfSteamworksAndMagickObscura'' were the all nature and magic elven society is falling to the rampant industrialism of humans, gnomes and dwarves. This brought to a separation of the elves in two branches: light and dark. Light elves are comparably decent - but still quite jerkass - folks who are content to let the other people live their own lives. The Dark ones are convinced of the innate superiority of elvenkind and despise all the other races as lesser. The fact that both branches are mostly going deeper and deeper into wilderness, leaving place for industrialism of other races makes them almost literal local version of MagicalNativeAmerican.

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* In ''VideoGame/WorldOfWarcraft'', there are three types of elf (Night, Blood, and High), all of which clearly believe themselves awesome and superior but are blatantly flawed just like all other [[GreyAndGreyMorality Warcraft races]]: elves are prone to FantasticRacism, Bloods get themselves into deep trouble experimenting with magic, while Night Elfs won't help the other races against global threats until it's absolutely necessary.
necessary (which of course blows up in their faces after a while).
* Both played straight and subverted in ''VideoGame/ArcanumOfSteamworksAndMagickObscura'' were where the all nature and magic elven society is falling to the rampant industrialism of humans, gnomes and dwarves. This brought to a separation of the elves in two branches: light and dark. Light elves are comparably decent - but still quite jerkass {{jerkass}} - folks who are content to let the other people live their own lives. The Dark ones are convinced of the innate superiority of elvenkind and despise all the other races as lesser. The fact that both branches are mostly going deeper and deeper into wilderness, leaving place for industrialism of other races makes them an almost literal local version of MagicalNativeAmerican.



** The [[ANaziByAnyOtherName Thalmor]] of ''Skyrim'' certainly believe in this trope. The other races react to this belief in a predictable fashion, and often [[ScrewYouElves do argue with them]], ranging between general disagreement and contempt (the majority of people, including quite a few High Elves), feigned alliance with hidden hostility (the Empire), and very vocal and at times violent hostility (the Stormcloaks).
** The Thalmor basically believe that the world is a horrible, forsaken prison and that the creators of it are evil beings. They wish to destroy it and kill every other race so the High Elves, the only beings who are truly descended from the Aedra, can be free once again. (What makes it crazy, they're ''not'' wrong per se.)

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** The [[ANaziByAnyOtherName Thalmor]] of ''Skyrim'' certainly believe in this trope. The other races react to this belief in a predictable fashion, and often [[ScrewYouElves do argue with them]], ranging between general disagreement and contempt (the majority of people, including quite a few of their fellow High Elves), feigned alliance with hidden hostility (the Empire), and very vocal and at times violent hostility (the Stormcloaks).
** The Thalmor basically believe that the world is a horrible, forsaken prison and that the creators of it are evil beings. They wish to destroy it and kill every other race so the High Elves, the only beings who are truly descended from the Aedra, can be free once again. (What makes it crazy, crazy is, they're ''not'' wrong per se.)



** Another way, they parodied this trope was by having being human be illegal in the elven lands and if you bother asking why or pointing out how unfair and stupid that law is, then you'd better have an argument about round ears being better than pointy ones or they won't take your claim/question seriously.

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** Another way, way they parodied this trope was by having being human be illegal in the elven lands and if you bother asking why or pointing out how unfair and stupid that law is, then you'd better have an argument about round ears being better than pointy ones or they won't take your claim/question seriously.



* {{Deconstruct|ion}}ed by the fae (drow, dark elves, light elves etc.) of ''Webcomic/{{Drowtales}}'' who love to think of themselves as such, and while it is true that they possess GameBreaker powers that significantly put them above the humans and orcs of the setting, they're also responsible for turning the surface into the Hell hole it is thanks to their screwing around with demonic magic. Through the story it becomes increasingly obvious that the fae rule through brute force and that they really aren't that much better than the "savage" humans and orcs.

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* {{Deconstruct|ion}}ed by the fae (drow, dark elves, light elves etc.) of ''Webcomic/{{Drowtales}}'' who love to think of themselves as such, and while it is true that they possess GameBreaker powers that significantly put them above the humans humans, dwarves and orcs of the setting, they're also responsible for turning the surface into the Hell hole Hell-hole it is thanks to their screwing around with demonic magic. Through the story it becomes increasingly obvious that the fae rule through brute force and that they really aren't that much better than the "savage" humans and orcs.



** It should be noted with Steff that she views herself as being an ugly talentless clod who looks about as much like a real woman (she's trans) as Sailor Bubba does, while Mack and her friends all see her as impossible graceful and artistically talented and it takes Mack and several other characters a long time to actually figure out that Steff isn't biologically female. This is explicitly stated to be caused by Steff being raised by elves, by whose standards she IS a clumsy talentless drag queen.

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** It should be noted with Steff that she views herself as being an ugly talentless clod who looks about as much like a real woman (she's trans) as Sailor Bubba does, while Mack and her friends all see her as impossible impossibly graceful and artistically talented and it takes Mack and several other characters a long time to actually figure out that Steff isn't biologically female. This is explicitly stated to be caused by Steff being raised by elves, by whose standards she IS a clumsy talentless drag queen.



* This, and the character types associated with it, are deconstructed with Aresia in ''WesternAnimation/JusticeLeague''. Stories like ''ComicBook/AmazonsAttack'' notwithstanding, the Amazons are typically portrayed as a superior people, with superior morality, strength and wisdom to those of "man's world." The bulk of Amazons act like this: dismissive of non-Amazons, and appealing to man's world's obvious inferiority when anyone challenges them on it. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, tends more towards "yeah, they're inferior, but it's our duty protect them from themselves." After a few arcs where both of these are called out, Aresia -- a non-Amazon whose been raised under the Amazons' CantArgueWithElves mentality, takes it to its logical conclusion and attempts to kill all men on the planet and taking this stance with everyone who tried to stop her -- even Wonder Woman herself.

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* This, and the character types associated with it, are deconstructed with Aresia in ''WesternAnimation/JusticeLeague''. Stories like ''ComicBook/AmazonsAttack'' notwithstanding, the Amazons are typically portrayed as a superior people, with superior morality, strength and wisdom to those of "man's world." The bulk of Amazons act like this: dismissive of non-Amazons, and appealing to man's world's obvious inferiority when anyone challenges them on it. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, tends more towards "yeah, they're inferior, but it's our duty to protect them from themselves." After a few arcs where both of these are called out, Aresia -- a non-Amazon whose who's been raised under the Amazons' CantArgueWithElves mentality, takes it to its logical conclusion and attempts to [[{{Gendercide}} kill all men on the planet planet]] and taking this stance with everyone who tried to stop her -- even Wonder Woman herself.
26th May '17 7:38:43 AM Paireon
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* The mini-series ''ComicBook/{{Marvels}}'' takes the moral that the reason the baseline human population of the Marvelverse resents and protests against its superhuman members is because they're ''jealous'' of their inherent nobility and self-sacrifice, rather than the perfectly understandable fear of having what amounts to physical gods brawling in the street. They also apparently fear being "replaced" by mutants, despite the fact that every human being on Earth is already a mutant, and the only difference is wether or not their X-Gene is activated.

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* The mini-series ''ComicBook/{{Marvels}}'' takes the moral that the reason the baseline human population of the Marvelverse resents and protests against its superhuman members is because they're ''jealous'' of their inherent nobility and self-sacrifice, rather than the perfectly understandable fear of having what amounts to physical gods brawling in the street. They also apparently fear being "replaced" by mutants, despite the fact that every human being on Earth is already a mutant, and the only difference is wether whether or not their X-Gene is activated.activated.
** The "jealousy over inherent moral superiority" thing gets rather ridiculous once the various {{Rogues Galler|y}}ies - which demonstrate quite clearly that "noble" superhumans are quite outnumbered by the less-than-noble ones.
20th May '17 10:47:32 PM Yozzy
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** One of the only, if not ''the'' only, Eldar who actually acknowledged that his race really isn't any better than the rest of the galaxy is called "the Perverse" because he considered the [[LaughablyEvil Orks]] to be the [[OnlySaneMan Only Sane Race]].

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** One of the only, if not ''the'' only, Eldar who actually acknowledged that his race really isn't any better than the rest of the galaxy is called was a philosopher who had been given the title "the Perverse" Perverse", because he considered the [[LaughablyEvil Orks]] to be the [[OnlySaneMan Only Sane Race]].Race]]. His reasoning was that Orks are thriving,have all their great questions answered, and live simple lives of eating, sleeping, and fighting (and occasionally looting or cobbling something together). Everyone else, especially the Eldar, are struggling to stay alive as well as facing a number of existential threats.
29th Apr '17 11:16:29 AM nombretomado
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* TimothyZahn's ''Warhorse'' has the Tampies, who live in complete harmony with all living things and have no trouble being snooty about it.

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* TimothyZahn's Creator/TimothyZahn's ''Warhorse'' has the Tampies, who live in complete harmony with all living things and have no trouble being snooty about it.
17th Apr '17 4:01:50 PM moongalleon22
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*** While this was only in supplementary material rather than in the main games themselves, the Qunari had already been presented as the BigBad in the Dragon Age comic series, ''Those Who Speak'', subverting this trope good and proper. Alistair, Varric and Isabela are captured by the Qunari and taken straight to the new Arishok, who is [[spoiler: actually Sten, Alistair's old friend from his adventures in Origins]], someone who has a lot of respect for Alistair...and all this earns him is a backhand to the face and imprisonment for him and Varric in the nicer-looking cells, while Isabela is taken to be tortured and re-educated by a Tammassran (her crew have also been captured and kept in these pit-like cells). It takes [[spoiler: Alistair defeating Arishok in single combat]] for them to actually lay off and entertain the idea of an alliance.

to:

*** While this was only in supplementary material rather than in the main games themselves, the Qunari had already been presented as one of the BigBad [[BigBad Big Bads]] in the Dragon Age comic series, ''Those Who Speak'', subverting this trope good and proper. Alistair, Varric and Isabela are captured by the Qunari and, after a few weeks in prison, Alistair and Varric are taken straight to the new Arishok, who is [[spoiler: actually Sten, Alistair's old friend from his adventures in Origins]], someone who has a lot of respect for Alistair...and all this earns him is a backhand to the face and imprisonment for him and Varric in the nicer-looking cells, while Isabela is taken to be tortured and re-educated by a Tammassran Tamassran (her crew have also been captured and kept in these pit-like cells). It takes [[spoiler: Alistair defeating Arishok in single combat]] for them to actually lay off and entertain the idea of an alliance. While they do become allies in the end, it still proves that Qunari philosophy isn't actually that compassionate to anyone who isn't Qunari, even if that person is "Basalit-an" (a respected outsider) or even their "kadan" (a close friend or loved one).
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